STP's Tiny Music... What am I missing? (A My Review Story)

[Chip Z'Hoy]

I think the first two Stone Pimple Toilets albums are genuinely great rock albums. Great riffs, big choruses--I'm on board.

By Tiny Music, I didn't care. I could never really stand Scott Weiland (RIP) and by then, he started doing the "ironic rock star" pose that everyone else was doing and going on drug-benders with Courtney Love like everyone else was doing--I had no interest.

But people have insisted this album is AMAZING and a CLASSIC and possibly STP's FINEST WORK so I gave it a listen while running errands.

It's terrible. What are you people talking about. "Pop's Love Suicide"--there was a band called Low Pop Suicide. What a genius this Weiland was! Taking a band name and making it a little different.

"Big Bang Baby, it's a crash crash crash"--are you joking my ass? Who said he could do this?

I sort of like "Lady Picture Show" and "Trippin' on a Hole in a Paper Heart" is fine.

[daveg]

But people have insisted this album is AMAZING and a CLASSIC and possibly STP's FINEST WORK .

What people??
The first 2 are great. I kinda like it as a pop STP record, but it is also a time and place album for me. I really don't recall anyone calling it a classic

[Tommy]

I love it but I'm a nutswinger. 3 big songs of theirs on there. As good as the first 2? Probably not. Maybe not as many 'deep cuts' Then again my favorite from them, by far, is No. 4.

[Bono Nettencourt]

I sort of like "Lady Picture Show" and "Trippin' on a Hole in a Paper Heart" is fine.

Yep that's it. 2-song special.

[GreatWhiteSnake]

This album was super hyped when it came out. Enough so that it was the first STP record I purchased. Now they are one of my favorite bands and I love Tiny Music. Maybe I'm a sucker for the hype. I think lots of people felt like this reviewer....

Tiny Music… Songs From the Vatican Gift Shop (Super Deluxe Edition)
Stone Temple Pilots
2021
Tiny Music… Songs From the Vatican Gift Shop
7.4
By Sadie Sartini Garner

GENRE: Rock
LABEL: Rhino
REVIEWED: July 24, 2021
Newly reissued for its 25th anniversary, STP’s sunbaked album of glam and pop and rock ranks as one of their best, separating them from the pack of post-grunge wannabes.
Depending on your perspective, Stone Temple Pilots’ debut, 1992’s Core, was either the last of the first wave of big-alt rock records lumped under the name “grunge,” or it was the first major album to arrive in the wake of the genre’s success. Either way, it caused enough chop to trouble the already turbulent waters of Puget Sound. For the first three years of the band’s career, most critics and artists viewed them as poseurs grasping at the hem of Eddie Vedder’s cutoffs. In his 1993 Spin cover story, subtly titled “Steal This Hook,” Jonathan Gold reports that Gibby Haynes of the Butthole Surfers was fond of calling STP “Stone Pimple Toilets.”

But for the millions of teenaged Gen-Xers headbanging to “Sex Type Thing” in their Geo Prizms, the question of whether Scott Weiland and his bandmates—brothers Robert and Dean DeLeo on bass and guitar, plus drummer Eric Kretz—had a cultural right to their Big Muff pedals and thrift-store clothing didn’t matter. They wrote killer rock songs, and that was enough. This, it seems, was also STP’s first priority. At a time when authenticity was considered in terms of artistic novelty and personal torment—and when critics thought authenticity was music’s primary aim—STP understood alternative rock as merely another kind of pop music and were content to work within its established forms. When the flannel grew too warm, they simply shrugged it off.

Remarkably, they didn’t bother putting on anything else. Their third album, 1996’s Tiny Music… Songs from the Vatican Gift Shop—reissued for its 25th anniversary with a collection of alternate takes and a 1997 live set from Panama City Beach—is glammy and sexy in a way that would make Seattle’s gatekeepers blush. Its experimental streak—while slightly overstated in later years—showed that they were willing to explore new sounds, but only if they resulted in pop gold. The songs themselves are emotionally direct, conjuring T. Rex, Bowie, and Exile-era Rolling Stones; like those totems of exhaustion and bravado, nearly every song sounds like it was made at 4:30 in the morning.

Everything moves quickly and smoothly, Weiland’s voice raspy like a skate blade on old ice. While the band’s early singles like “Plush” and “Dead & Bloated” were more melodically developed, they could come off as plodding and a little pushy, cornering you like a grad student at a party who really wants you to get where he’s coming from. “Pop’s Love Suicide” and “Tumble in the Rough,” which kick off the album, both sound like they’re being hammered out of tin. They move with a newfound speed and ease, but their casual arrangements and flat melodies make them feel slight; you can barely imagine them soundtracking a Surge ad, much less standing against the post-grunge glam that Spacehog were already perfecting.



It may seem unfair to frame Stone Temple Pilots in relation to the artists they were channeling, but originality was never their goal. “The last thing I wanted to do with this band was make everybody believe we invented something,” Robert DeLeo told the L.A. Times in 1994. Accordingly, many of Tiny Music’s best moments come when the band openly embraces its influences. “Lady Picture Show” is a stately piece of Beatles pop that sounds like a version of “You Never Give Me Your Money” that’s been left in the street for a few days. Though Weiland would later say that it’s about “the horrific gang rape of a dancer who winds up falling in love but can’t let go of the pain,” the song never wears its emotional heaviness too proudly; like Paul McCartney delivering “Eleanor Rigby,” Weiland comes off as a concerned—if lyrically obtuse—observer, and the distance he places between himself and the subject gives the song a melancholy air that’s light-years removed from the clumsiness of “Sex Type Thing.”

“Big Bang Baby” goes one step further, namechecking Bowie’s “Station to Station” and directly nicking the chorus melody from the Stones’ “Jumpin’ Jack Flash.” While the latter made Pitchfork’s then-editor accuse them of plagiarism in a genuinely deplorable review upon its original release, Weiland was trying to use one of the most famous rock songs of all time as a sly comment on the weight of stardom: “Sell your soul and sign an autograph,” he sings in the preceding lyric. When the band shifts from the churning glam of the chorus to a beautifully chiming refrain of “Nothing’s for free,” the irony is apparent. Rarely had they sounded so in command of their craft.

“Adhesive,” meanwhile, showed that Stone Temple Pilots were still tuned in to alternative radio, its slow blooms of overdriven guitar and subdued vocals floating in the same galaxy as Hum’s 1995 hit “Stars.” Weiland was in the grips of a heroin addiction that would slowly erode his life over the next two decades. But now, roughly two years after the death of Kurt Cobain, he was keenly aware of himself as a product and how his own death would likely be co-opted by the industry. “Sell more records if I’m dead,” he sings. “Hope it’s near corporate records’ fiscal year.” Even as the song rises to a chorus, his voice remains weak and thin; it’s one of the only times on Tiny Music that he returns to the alienation that marked the band’s early work.


Despite the occasional introspective moments, Tiny Music is primarily an album of expansion. It was recorded in a 25,000-square-foot mansion north of Santa Barbara, throughout its bathrooms, hallways, and even on the lawn. The tracks here that were preposterous to critics at the time now seem like the album’s most carefully considered—and daring—moments. NME called “And So I Know” “blatant easy listening” likely because the cool sway of its starry guitar-jazz was wildly at odds with what passed for sensitivity among male-fronted groups at the time. While the song was never released as a single, it showed that a rock band could be sincere without being abrasive, broadening the era’s narrow conceptions of authenticity and masculinity, even if only slightly. A few years later, Incubus would sell a ton of records playing basically the same kind of song. You can also hear the past and future of alt-rock radio in “Trippin’ on a Hole in a Paper Heart,” whose burning chorus would’ve fit on Alice in Chains’ Dirt, and whose choppy, pepped-up verses cleared a happier path out of grunge that bands like Third Eye Blind would gladly follow.

A complete take of the abbreviated album opener “Press Play” aside, the alternate cuts collected on this reissue are more interesting than essential, but the Panama City Beach concert captures Stone Temple Pilots’ power as a live band. Parts of this set aired on MTV’s Spring Break, and if the crowd chatter during the quieter moments is any indication, this was not the most attentive audience STP ever played for. But the band doesn’t seem to notice or care. Dean DeLeo covers so much ground, he seems to be playing rhythm and lead at once, steering feedback and slide guitar through the verses of “Big Empty” and replicating the ripples of organ in “Lady Picture Show.”

Hearing Weiland toggle between the voice he used on Core and Purple and the coy shout he developed for Tiny Music is a reminder that his vocal transformation in the mid-’90s is arguably Tiny Music’s biggest artistic leap; he takes melodic lines with a tongue-curling insouciance that makes him sound like Bono gone hoarse with jet lag, and his ability to convincingly inhabit both the swirling darkness of the first two records and the bright pop of Tiny Music in this set is remarkable. The tracklist is split evenly among their three albums, highlighting just how many hits these guys had already accumulated by 1997.


In his 1996 review of Tiny Music, Spin’s Charles Aaron suggested that Stone Temple Pilots fundamentally lacked irony. That’s not quite correct, even if by “irony” Aaron meant the kind of cynicism toward the trappings of rock culture that the alternative movement had been so keen to avoid. While that supposed deficiency prevented them from being accepted by the alt- and indie-rock stars of their day, it also allowed them to embrace big, powerful, goofball rock’n’roll without second-guessing their ambition. Sure, that’s probably how Scott Weiland ended up duetting with Fred Durst and Jonathan Davis on Limp Bizkit’s Significant Other and how we all ended up with Velvet Revolver. But it’s also how Stone Temple Pilots managed to evolve into a much more interesting band without losing their pop appeal. For a band who was regularly accused of chasing trends, Tiny Music proved they were willing to buck the defining characteristic of the era: They made being in a hugely famous—if somewhat dopey—rock band sound like it might actually be fun.

[Don't Damn Me]

I love it.

But after touring with Red Kross, they apparently seem to feel they needed some thrift store/ punk rock cred.

So they recorded Tiny Music on a reel-to-reel 8-track.

That decision I think hurt the album. If it had that huge production of the first two a lot of people would have different opinions about it

[daveg]

That reviewer needs to tighten shit up. Makes me appreciate Jingles..

[DangerZone]

It’s a good album.
In some ways, better than the first 2

Last album I heard by them

[GreatWhiteSnake]

It’s a good album.
In some ways, better than the first 2

Last album I heard by them

Really? #4 might be my favorite...

[DangerZone]

It’s a good album.
In some ways, better than the first 2

Last album I heard by them

Really? #4 might be my favorite...

I just stopped listening to modern rock at that time.
Maybe I’ll check it out soon

[exitflagger]

Not my favorite by them. A handful of decent songs but nowhere near the first two or No. 4.

[Hellsinkey]

Not my favorite by them. A handful of decent songs but nowhere near the first two or No. 4.

This. Trippin'... is one of their best songs and I like Big Bang Baby a lot too, we even covered it with one band.

[whiteowl yesterday]

got their 1st two cds never owned tiny.

[whammybar]

I like all of their Weiland era albums. Easily one of my favorite bands.

[CrankerBait]

It is a good album. Most of the songs are solid and a couple of them are classics. The stripped down production is something I like about the album. Purple is their album I think is really overrated.

[Darrien]

Huge fan of STP, and while I do like a lot of this record, it falls off a cliff during the 2nd half.
The first 4 tracks (not counting the intro) are bangers; 'Tumble In The Rough' is killer.
Tripping on Hole is probably one of my favorite STP songs so the album gets extra points for having it.

Lots of my friends are/were STP fans but I never heard anyone call it their finest work.

[Chip Z'Hoy]

I don't think I love anything more than "No one's ever said that! And to prove you wrong, I will provide evidence that is also anecdotal!"

Look, EVERYONE says it's their best album. Everyone. Telling me otherwise demonstrates a lack of integrity on your part. You're a liar, and a cheat.

[SterileEyes1]

I do recall there was a ranking of their albums on one of the more reputable rock websites, UCR or Loudwire or something, that had Tiny Music in the top spot.

I love the singles, I love “Tumble In The Rough” and “And So I Know”, but there’s quite a bit of filler with the rest by STP standards and I never was crazy about the sonics.

Overall possibly my least favorite of the Weiland albums, but I’m a huge STP fan so certainly not saying it’s bad or anything.

Anyone who hasn’t given Shangri La De Da a chance in awhile…really should.

[MetalSludgeCEO]

My first Stone Temple Pilots exposure... at Atlantic Records... less than 24 hours later, Atlantic Records dropped us.

Read this snippet and the rest, in TUFF DIARIES #17 (Spring 1992)

---------------------------

Now it’s 6 months later and I am sitting in an executive office in Hollywood telling Jason Flom why we should be heavy when he suggested otherwise.

Flom is giving Williamson the look (which in thinking back was his, “F#ck these guys” look) as we all continued chatting.

After what was likely about 15-20 minutes time, the meeting was over.

Jason and Kevin both shook our hands and we left the Atlantic Records offices.

As we are waiting for the elevator, I remember the band Testament was getting out of an elevator next to ours

We nodded at them, as they headed in to the Atlantic offices next.

Guessing they were there for a meeting with the boss from NYC as well.

I also remember standing in the elevator with Michael and Jorge, and I mocked the band that Jason and Kevin had just played us.

“What is Stone Pimple Pigeons?” as I joked about their name.

Why?

I have no idea… but I did think their name was stupid.

Atlantic released their debut later that fall in 1992 and as history shows, they sold a lot.

How many sold you may ask?

Stone Temple Pilots debut would go on to sell 8x platinum.

We took the elevator down to the parking structure and drove home to the San Fernando Valley.

------------------------------------------

The Very Next Day

It’s May 14th, 1992, and 1 year ago today, Atlantic Records released our debut.

Michael gets a call from our manager, who was based out in the Tri-State area.

That call informed Michael, some news none of us expected – and that was that Atlantic Records had dropped Tuff.

One and done.

Gone.

Wait…what?

Yup… game over.

We should have listened to our manager. But we didn’t.

Kushner informed Michael that he had talked to Flom, and the label is letting us go.

Why?

There was no reason that I recall, but clearly it didn’t matter anyway.

Was it our heavy sound?

Was it our songs, or lack thereof, or their quality?

Was it the way I acted, or implied working with David Prater wasn’t of interest?

Or a combination of all the above and adding the “But I am like David Lee Roth…” drivel.

This is why a band has a manager, especially in select situations.

Our manager told us, “You guys are on salary. Atlantic is paying you, monthly. They just paid for the 1st round of demos. There is no rush.”

But none of us, not I, not Michael or Jorge listened.

Happy Anniversary guys, your debut is 1 year old today and you’ve just been dropped.

What a present huh?

I don’t blame Jason Flom or Kevin Williamson.

They saw the writing on the wall and Stone Temple Pilots was their future, not Tuff.

Now what, we’re back to handing out flyers?

Ugh.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

TUFF DIARIES #17 …
Hello 1992, Gene Simmons, We Need Money, Mike Starr, New Bass Player & Jason Flom part II
> https://metalsludge.tv/tuff-diaries-17- ... m-part-ii/

Enjoy...

$tEvil

[Tommy2Tone84]

I liked their first album for about six months in 1992. It wasn’t all that great. By 1993 I was over them, the whole grunge and 90s alternative scene. I remember seeing their video for Vaseline. I changed the channel. NEXT!!! Scott was one of the lamest and most overrated frontmen. I even tried giving them a second chance a few years ago, thinking maybe I had been a bit hasty and rash. Nope! Boring AF. I could never get into VR because of Scott. To this day I prefer the two Snakepit records.

[Tommy2Tone84]

My first Stone Temple Pilots exposure... at Atlantic Records... less than 24 hours later, Atlantic Records dropped us.

Read this snippet and the rest, in TUFF DIARIES #17 (Spring 1992)

---------------------------

Now it’s 6 months later and I am sitting in an executive office in Hollywood telling Jason Flom why we should be heavy when he suggested otherwise.

Flom is giving Williamson the look (which in thinking back was his, “F#ck these guys” look) as we all continued chatting.

After what was likely about 15-20 minutes time, the meeting was over.

Jason and Kevin both shook our hands and we left the Atlantic Records offices.

As we are waiting for the elevator, I remember the band Testament was getting out of an elevator next to ours

We nodded at them, as they headed in to the Atlantic offices next.

Guessing they were there for a meeting with the boss from NYC as well.

I also remember standing in the elevator with Michael and Jorge, and I mocked the band that Jason and Kevin had just played us.

“What is Stone Pimple Pigeons?” as I joked about their name.

Why?

I have no idea… but I did think their name was stupid.

Atlantic released their debut later that fall in 1992 and as history shows, they sold a lot.

How many sold you may ask?

Stone Temple Pilots debut would go on to sell 8x platinum.

We took the elevator down to the parking structure and drove home to the San Fernando Valley.

------------------------------------------

The Very Next Day

It’s May 14th, 1992, and 1 year ago today, Atlantic Records released our debut.

Michael gets a call from our manager, who was based out in the Tri-State area.

That call informed Michael, some news none of us expected – and that was that Atlantic Records had dropped Tuff.

One and done.

Gone.

Wait…what?

Yup… game over.

We should have listened to our manager. But we didn’t.

Kushner informed Michael that he had talked to Flom, and the label is letting us go.

Why?

There was no reason that I recall, but clearly it didn’t matter anyway.

Was it our heavy sound?

Was it our songs, or lack thereof, or their quality?

Was it the way I acted, or implied working with David Prater wasn’t of interest?

Or a combination of all the above and adding the “But I am like David Lee Roth…” drivel.

This is why a band has a manager, especially in select situations.

Our manager told us, “You guys are on salary. Atlantic is paying you, monthly. They just paid for the 1st round of demos. There is no rush.”

But none of us, not I, not Michael or Jorge listened.

Happy Anniversary guys, your debut is 1 year old today and you’ve just been dropped.

What a present huh?

I don’t blame Jason Flom or Kevin Williamson.

They saw the writing on the wall and Stone Temple Pilots was their future, not Tuff.

Now what, we’re back to handing out flyers?

Ugh.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

TUFF DIARIES #17 …
Hello 1992, Gene Simmons, We Need Money, Mike Starr, New Bass Player & Jason Flom part II
> https://metalsludge.tv/tuff-diaries-17- ... m-part-ii/

Enjoy...

$tEvil

There name is dumb. They also blatantly plagiarized STP motors logo and abbreviation. No one batted an eye at the time.

Their original name, Mighty Joe Young was equally as dumb

[exitflagger]

There name is dumb.

So you're saying you feel some kind of kinship with them?

[heard it on the x]

Their best record, in my opinion. They found their sound and would run with it for the rest of the Weiland years.

[Don't Damn Me]

My first Stone Temple Pilots exposure... at Atlantic Records... less than 24 hours later, Atlantic Records dropped us.

Read this snippet and the rest, in TUFF DIARIES #17 (Spring 1992)

We should have listened to our manager. But we didn’t.

This is why a band has a manager, especially in select situations.

Our manager told us, “You guys are on salary. Atlantic is paying you, monthly. They just paid for the 1st round of demos. There is no rush.”

Now what, we’re back to handing out flyers?

Ugh.

That's a drag.

Given the timing I'd say, probably yes, the catalyst was the way you acted. Have you blown other opportunities?

Are you saying your manager advised you to take your time making the record, or to milk a good thing?

You guys were around a long time. I can understand if you're ready to go, you're ready to go. You don't want to sit around. That's not something you should regret.

[MetalSludgeCEO]

My first Stone Temple Pilots exposure... at Atlantic Records... less than 24 hours later, Atlantic Records dropped us.

Read this snippet and the rest, in TUFF DIARIES #17 (Spring 1992)

We should have listened to our manager. But we didn’t.

This is why a band has a manager, especially in select situations.

Our manager told us, “You guys are on salary. Atlantic is paying you, monthly. They just paid for the 1st round of demos. There is no rush.”

Now what, we’re back to handing out flyers?

Ugh.

That's a drag.

Given the timing I'd say, probably yes, the catalyst was the way you acted. Have you blown other opportunities?

Are you saying your manager advised you to take your time making the record, or to milk a good thing?

You guys were around a long time. I can understand if you're ready to go, you're ready to go. You don't want to sit around. That's not something you should regret.

That's a drag.

"""""""""""""""Given the timing I'd say, probably yes, the catalyst was the way you acted. Have you blown other opportunities?""""""""""""""""

I mean, I think it's safe to say everyone at some point can look in the rear-view mirror and say, "Should I have done this, or done that instead?"

And that is across the board... be it in music, entertainment, sports, or life in general.

We said "Yes" to Penelope Spheeris for "Decline..." and it benefited us... I think. We also said "Yes" to "Thunder and Mud" which was 10 levels below "Decline..." and in the end, most would say... "Why would you do that?" but we did.

Then on the 3rd offer, we said "No thanks..." as even in the moment, in 1989, the "Thunder and Mud" thing seemed goofy as F#@k. So, the premise of 2 guys in their basement, doing the "Wayne's World" radio show, also seemed whack... but it turned out to be a massive hit.

Had TUFF said "Yes" to the Wayne's World offer, and bee included on the Sound-Track, we would have a 2x Platinum plaque on our walls.

As for Flom's suggestions, as a group of 24-25 year olds... yeah, we didn't make the right impression that day, and our (my) answers to Flom's ideas may have cost us our deal.



""""""""Are you saying your manager advised you to take your time making the record, or to milk a good thing?"""""""""""""""

Yes... our manager said "What is the rush to meet with Flom..." and he advised us to wait for him, to moderate, lead the meeting... but he couldn't be in L.A. at the exact time Flom was there, and we pushed to go to the meeting alone.

Also... in looking back, had we had said: "David Prater, FireHouse's producer... yes, yes, and yes", and "Co-write with this guy and that guy" yes, yes and yes.

In some ways, we weren't feeling that... and spoke up. But had we agreed to all... and the 2nd record was 4 ballads, piano, acoustic, etc... then perhaps we'd be labeled a sell-out, they can't write their own songs, blah, blah, blah.

It's pretty much flip of the coin....



""""""""""""""""You guys were around a long time. I can understand if you're ready to go, you're ready to go. You don't want to sit around. That's not something you should regret."""""""""""""""""

Exactly...

We didn't want to work with writers and producers for 6 months, and likely, in the end, our fate would have been the same... so, maybe it was best to have things unfold the way they did.

This is part of my argument, whenever I see fans, etc... making all kind of bold statements, about why things happened, why this band was huge, and this band was not... it's a very different world once inside the corporate machine.

Your guitarist's skills, drummer's chops, singer's range and the rest... are all merely pieces on a Game Board, or a Puzzle, and you're NOT in control any longer.

Of course once you get to GNR & Axl, Metallica & Lars, Limp Bizkit & Durst or Kid Rock level sales, of course then you can call all the shots.

But when you're recording a debut, or 2nd record, trying to get noticed... your chances are dependent on others and many things falling into place.

$tEvil

[Don't Damn Me]

We said "Yes" to Penelope Spheeris for "Decline..." and it benefited us... I think.

Had TUFF said "Yes" to the Wayne's World offer, and bee included on the Sound-Track, we would have a 2x Platinum plaque on our walls.

$tEvil

I have no idea what Thunder and Mud is but I have a better understanding of what you're saying.

I don't think Decline did anything for your career, but it was good for your long-term reputation. The movie showed how EVERY hopeful, no matter how determined or confident, was doomed to failure. But you guys were one of the minute few to rise above the thousands of wannabes and land a major label deal. You're not one of the pretentious losers telling the camera they're going to make it, no doubt. At one point, you "made it" which is more than they can say.

But I got to call bullshit on this Wayne's World thing. Why the hell would you decline to be on the soundtrack of a movie based on popular Saturday Night Live skits? What could have possibly been the downside?

You didn't have an album come out in 1989 did you? And we're not talking about a second album at the time that you were dropped, are we?

But yes now I see your point. Meeting with Atlantics Head Metal Honcho without your manager present was a bad move. Plus I can't help but imagine - I would have done this myself - in the days of guns n' roses and metallica, rebellious mega stars who never compromised, you probably felt inclined to act like them, poising yourself as if you are about to make this label a ton of money and to show Jason you just don't give a fuck.
Maybe.
I don't know.

I'm just not familiar with the music to be honest. We had a really good phone call once, leaving me inclined to be supportive. But shortly thereafter you'd randomly go off of me for some stupid s*** or another and my attitude became f*** Stevie f*** TUFF. And who knows you may have rubbed someone else the wrong way that probably could have benefited you

Anyway, back to your story. Dude, you needed to have signed that record deal two or three years earlier. No matter how strong your record was it wasn't going to break big. I think Firehouse was the last big hair metal hit and that was like what April of 91? Nothing hit after that except for guns n' roses and Metallica

[Tommy2Tone84]

There name is dumb.

So you're saying you feel some kind of kinship with them?

Exit, I could be dumber than CC Deville all gakked out with freshly dyed pink hair and I still wouldn’t be as dumb as Scott Weiland and Co.

[MetalSludgeCEO]

We said "Yes" to Penelope Spheeris for "Decline..." and it benefited us... I think.

Had TUFF said "Yes" to the Wayne's World offer, and bee included on the Sound-Track, we would have a 2x Platinum plaque on our walls.

$tEvil

""""""""""""""I have no idea what Thunder and Mud is but I have a better understanding of what you're saying."""""""""""""""

HERE YA GO > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunder_and_Mud

TUFF on Thuder & Mud > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bifOx48h9og


""""""""""""""""""""I don't think Decline did anything for your career, but it was good for your long-term reputation. The movie showed how EVERY hopeful, no matter how determined or confident, was doomed to failure. But you guys were one of the minute few to rise above the thousands of wannabes and land a major label deal. You're not one of the pretentious losers telling the camera they're going to make it, no doubt. At one point, you "made it" which is more than they can say.""""""""""""""""""""""""

As you said: "You're not one of the pretentious losers telling the camera they're going to make it, no doubt."

EXACTLY this.

Now 35+ years later, and for a long time, especially in the last 20 years, being part of this is looked at by a lot of fans, as awesome. It's a feather in the cap, albeit a small one, being part of this underground fan fave was for sure a good thing for Tuff.


""""""""""""""""But I got to call bullshit on this Wayne's World thing. Why the hell would you decline to be on the soundtrack of a movie based on popular Saturday Night Live skits? What could have possibly been the downside?""""""""""""""""""""""

What's bullshit?

Penelope liked us, liked me... and she put us in "Decline..." after meeting me on the Sunset Strip in front of Gazzarri's. That also lead to her putting us in THUD, and hanging out at her house up in Lookout Mountain (Laurel Canyon). At the time, we were def the biggest band on the scene, which had reached fever pitch, so it's not out of the realms of possibility she would ask us to be involved.

We declined it simply because we had just signed with Atlantic Records (summer 1990) and felt that we needed to concentrate on our major label debut, and not another (what was considered, or assumed to be) D-list weird off-shoot music movie.

Which had you poled the critics, or industry execs at the time what the chances were this would do (grossing 10x it's budget) upwards of $200M at the box office, it would have been slim to none.

Next to nobody thought "Wayne's World" would become a massive hit.

Also... at that time, do you know how many huge hit movies Penelope Spheeris had directed? If you guessed, Zero, you would be correct.

Not dissing her, but Thunder & Mud (The THUD Show, aptly named) was a year earlier, and was super cheezy, low-end, etc.. and our mind was on doing our record, not some movie associated thing.


""""""""""""""""""""""""""You didn't have an album come out in 1989 did you? And we're not talking about a second album at the time that you were dropped, are we?""""""""""""""""

In 1989 we did Thunder & Mud.

In 1990 we signed to Atlantic Records, started recording that December and the record came out in May 1991.

Wayne's World was being shot during this time, and was released in Feb. 1992.


"""""""""""""""""""""""""But yes now I see your point. Meeting with Atlantics Head Metal Honcho without your manager present was a bad move. Plus I can't help but imagine - I would have done this myself - in the days of guns n' roses and metallica, rebellious mega stars who never compromised, you probably felt inclined to act like them, poising yourself as if you are about to make this label a ton of money and to show Jason you just don't give a fuck.
Maybe.
I don't know."""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Right... it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You read the stories about Axl telling the labels to F#@k off, and "We'll sign with you, if your A&R lady walks to our apartment naked down Sunset Strip with the contract" blah, blah, blah.

And the Kurt Cobain stuff, etc... all sounds great after the records sold... "We did what we wanted...nobody told us what to do..." and so on.

At the same time, if you do what you're told, follow the A&R guy's advice, co-writers, producers, studio musicians, etc... then you get the Warrant interviews with certain guys telling the world how Beau Hill screwed them over, and defending themselves because they didn't play on their own record.

Like I noted in some previous answers, once in the game at this level, it's light-years different than headlining The Whisky, or drawing a big crowd at your local bar.


""""""""""""""I'm just not familiar with the music to be honest. We had a really good phone call once, leaving me inclined to be supportive. But shortly thereafter you'd randomly go off of me for some stupid s*** or another and my attitude became f*** Stevie f*** TUFF. And who knows you may have rubbed someone else the wrong way that probably could have benefited you.""""""""""""""""""""

Phone call?


""""""""""""""""""""""Anyway, back to your story. Dude, you needed to have signed that record deal two or three years earlier. No matter how strong your record was it wasn't going to break big. I think Firehouse was the last big hair metal hit and that was like what April of 91? Nothing hit after that except for guns n' roses and Metallica"""""""""""""""""""""


Of course... and everyone who did sign 2-3 years earlier, but only went Gold, says they should have had the shot that much earlier as well, and it's why they didn't go multi platinum.

It's timing, luck, and a host of other things.

As I have argued the point previously, for the Sebastian Bach nut-swingers... if you removed Jon Bon Jovi and Doc McGhee from their equation, they are Herricane Alice.

And if you added Jon & Doc to SouthGang, or Tuff, or other band's equation, perhaps they go double platinum.

There are so many contributing factors... it's not a guy's voice, or guitarist, or a single song... it's a lot of pieces that need to fit together for it to truly work.

$tEvil

[Bono Nettencourt]

We said "Yes" to Penelope Spheeris for "Decline..." and it benefited us... I think.

Had TUFF said "Yes" to the Wayne's World offer, and bee included on the Sound-Track, we would have a 2x Platinum plaque on our walls.

$tEvil

I have no idea what Thunder and Mud is but I have a better understanding of what you're saying.

I don't think Decline did anything for your career, but it was good for your long-term reputation. The movie showed how EVERY hopeful, no matter how determined or confident, was doomed to failure. But you guys were one of the minute few to rise above the thousands of wannabes and land a major label deal. You're not one of the pretentious losers telling the camera they're going to make it, no doubt. At one point, you "made it" which is more than they can say.

But I got to call bullshit on this Wayne's World thing. Why the hell would you decline to be on the soundtrack of a movie based on popular Saturday Night Live skits? What could have possibly been the downside?

You didn't have an album come out in 1989 did you? And we're not talking about a second album at the time that you were dropped, are we?

But yes now I see your point. Meeting with Atlantics Head Metal Honcho without your manager present was a bad move. Plus I can't help but imagine - I would have done this myself - in the days of guns n' roses and metallica, rebellious mega stars who never compromised, you probably felt inclined to act like them, poising yourself as if you are about to make this label a ton of money and to show Jason you just don't give a fuck.
Maybe.
I don't know.

I'm just not familiar with the music to be honest. We had a really good phone call once, leaving me inclined to be supportive. But shortly thereafter you'd randomly go off of me for some stupid s*** or another and my attitude became f*** Stevie f*** TUFF. And who knows you may have rubbed someone else the wrong way that probably could have benefited you

Anyway, back to your story. Dude, you needed to have signed that record deal two or three years earlier. No matter how strong your record was it wasn't going to break big. I think Firehouse was the last big hair metal hit and that was like what April of 91? Nothing hit after that except for guns n' roses and Metallica

Uhh... you get the deal when you get the deal... and AFA Wayne's World, Stevies right, it was a surprise hit that came outta nowhere, the 1st SNL-themed movie since Belushi was alive. NOBODY saw that coming. Besides, the soundtrack would've been a nice-to-have for Tuff, but ultimately it didn't really do much for anyone on it except Queen, and that was halfway due to Freddies tribute concert being 2 months after the movie came out.

[Don't Damn Me]

Uhh... you get the deal when you get the deal... and AFA Wayne's World, Stevies right, it was a surprise hit that came outta nowhere, the 1st SNL-themed movie since Belushi was alive. NOBODY saw that coming. Besides, the soundtrack would've been a nice-to-have for Tuff, but ultimately it didn't really do much for anyone on it except Queen, and that was halfway due to Freddies tribute concert being 2 months after the movie came out.

"Uhh..."
Oh, really, is that how it works?

I can understand if there's a conflict of Interest with the labels.
But, Bono, are you saying that if you were Stevie you wouldn't even ask questions about the soundtrack? Or are you saying that being in a track listing that includes Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton and a reunited Black Sabbath "wouldnt do much" for an unknown band like Tuff?
That's some real industry savvy you got there, "Uhh..."