Origin of "Paris is Burning" (Or: is Greg Leon really this full of shit?)

[aznsquirt]

So, I've known for a long time the story that after George and Mick turned down joining Dokken in the early days, Don basically stole Paris is Burning (and another song, don't know which one) and used them to get a publishing deal in Germany. George and Mick eventually joined the band it became a Dokken song.

Here's one of George's quotes about it:

"That's a song we'd been playing for a couple of years in Xciter. Don (Dokken/vocals) actually approached me to play together in a band with him - he liked that song and wanted to know if I would be interested in performing it in a project in Germany, to try and get a record deal there. I said, 'Of course, why not.' We talked about the deal, and then I never heard from him. So some time later, he approached Mick (Brown/drums and me, to join him in Dokken. I said, 'OK.'"

"I was digging and pulled up the contract - I can't remember how I got my hands on it - but I found out that he actually sold two of my songs from Xciter to a publishing company, for something like 25,000 or 35,000 marks (about $15,000). And he listed himself as the author. I was floored. So that started the rocky relationship."

Here's Xciter playing "Paris is Burning" circa December 1979:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icSjtQlhjMY

Also, the original "Paris is Burning" Demo recorded by Xciter was apparently recorded in 1977 (per the liner notes):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NCqJkuWhBk

(Side note: I don't know why, but the drum into in this version is the best version Mick ever played, IMO)

On a side note, I've always wondered if the original singer in Xciter (or someone else) wrote the lyrics to Paris is Burning and should've gotten Dokken royalties.

Anyway, "Paris" was included on the original 1981 Carrere release (as a studio cut) of Breaking the Chains, and included as a live version of "Paris is Burning" (allegedly from Berlin in 1982) on the subsequent 1983 Elektra version, and was performed as early as 1981 in Dokken, with credit given to "Don Dokken and George Lynch" on both releases.

Here's where it gets weird.

There's some ambiguity (and disagreement here), but Dokken went to Germany on August 28, 1979, played a bunch of shows and recorded the demo that got bootlegged as the "Back in the Streets" EP. Greg claims he was there for those recording sessions, but he isn't credited on the recording. It's known that Greg was on Dokken for awhile and went to Europe with them but it's not clear if it was this time or during their return in 1980.

Not super important, but anyway, I was watching a video of Greg Leon Invasion from 1983, and they basically start the show with the Paris is Burning riff:

https://youtu.be/DrdrdmxN3ig?t=19

This is a song called "I'm Leaving You" which is also included on the first Greg Leon Invasion CD (also released in 1983, presumably recorded around the same time).

I found an interview with Greg where he claims to have written significant portions of the Breaking the Chains album (and mentions Paris being a rip off of "I'm Leaving You"):

JH: know you got taken advantage on and therefore never received credit for songs where you wrote all the music to or ones that you simply helped write, like on the first DOKKEN record where you received no credit at all. What are some of those songs? I mean there was a song on your first record that had parts from other songs.
Greg Leon: Oh that's "I'm Leaving You" and "Paris Is Burning" sounds very similar to that on the first DOKKEN record. But that first record, BREAKING THE CHAINS was stuff I wrote on every song.

If it wasn't for the fact that Paris is Burning was clearly being played from Xciter as far back as 1977, I might think there was some truth to this, but given this and Greg's weird accusations about Nikki Sixx not playing bass on Crue records, I can only conclude that Greg is beyond all concept of full of shit.

What do you guys think?

[Love_Industry]

If it wasn't for the fact that Paris is Burning was clearly being played from Xciter as far back as 1977, I might think there was some truth to this, but given this and Greg's weird accusations about Nikki Sixx not playing bass on Crue records, I can only conclude that Greg is beyond all concept of full of shit.

What do you guys think?

Basically I agree with you. Greg Leon was part of the scene 40-45 years ago where everybody and anybody moved from band to band and he did play briefly with Dokken, Quiet Riot and Mötley Crue so I don't see him as a flat out liar, but this is what comes out when his memory is not that good and he likes to overstate his importance.

[aznsquirt]

Side note: IMO (probably related to Blotzer's tenure in Dokken) it's always been funny to me that the drum intro to Ratt - Sweet Cheater is identical to the drum intro on Paris is Burning.

[Tommy2Tone84]

I’m not sure nor do I really care about Paris Is Burning. But I would not doubt that Nikki was ghosted over more than once on Crue albums, Maybe not on TFFL since it’s a glorified demo. But from SATD through at least GGG. I would bet Nikki was replaced at times by numerous LA session players that we all know or are familiar with.

[Love_Industry]

But from SATD through at least GGG. I would bet Nikki was replaced at times by numerous LA session players that we all know or are familiar with.

Mötley may not exactly have been top notch musicians in the 80s but they all had a distinctive style and sond so they'd be hard to replace. We all know Vince punched in line by line, and a somewhat known hair metaller worked in a studio between tours, cutting up Tommy's (and Rikki Rockett's and Lars's) drum tracks as they struggled with coming back after fills, nailing tempo changes etc.

The same thing probably happened with Nikki and Mick. A lot of takes, cut and paste, a producer or studio musician laying down guide tracks for them to follow, but I still think it's (mostly) Nikki and Mick on the final product.

I also remember someone way back in alt.music.motley-crue or whatever it was called that some staff songwriters had (low) percentages on some songs on GGG and DrF and then were paid off... their names were visible on Ascap or BMI until they were bought out... anyone?

[FreddyFender]

Bob Rock said himself Nikki told him he thought he had been ghosted over by session players. Dr Feelgood was where he made Nikki actually put in the work and record each piece in sections until it was perfect.

Nikki is a famously bad bassist, specifically with meter issues - replacing people that weren’t top notch players with studio guys in secret was standard practice in the 80s , so I really don’t know why people find this hard to believe.

[Tommy2Tone84]

But from SATD through at least GGG. I would bet Nikki was replaced at times by numerous LA session players that we all know or are familiar with.

Mötley may not exactly have been top notch musicians in the 80s but they all had a distinctive style and sond so they'd be hard to replace. We all know Vince punched in line by line, and a somewhat known hair metaller worked in a studio between tours, cutting up Tommy's (and Rikki Rockett's and Lars's) drum tracks as they struggled with coming back after fills, nailing tempo changes etc.

The same thing probably happened with Nikki and Mick. A lot of takes, cut and paste, a producer or studio musician laying down guide tracks for them to follow, but I still think it's (mostly) Nikki and Mick on the final product.

I also remember someone way back in alt.music.motley-crue or whatever it was called that some staff songwriters had (low) percentages on some songs on GGG and DrF and then were paid off... their names were visible on Ascap or BMI until they were bought out... anyone?

I think I know what certain hair metaller you are talking about. I met him once and he tried to tell me that all of Nikki’s bass on Feelgood was done on a synthesizer. I took it with a grain of salt at the time but the guy worked in the L.A. music studio system for years. So if anyone would know, it would be him.

I never found anything all that distinctive about Nikki’s playing per say. He was always a better songwriter and showman than he was musician. Rudy Sarzo gets a lot of sh*t around here but Rudy is 1,000xs the bassist Nikki ever was. Same goes for Duff and Rachel. They are way better than Nikki.

Nikki was boring and bland like Brian Wheat from Tesla.

Mick, while I liked some of his leads and I was a fan, I wouldn’t say he ever fell into my top ten or twenty favorites list. True Confessions, I ended up liking CC Deville’s playing on his band’s albums better than Mick’s. CC had a catchy, melodic style that caught my ear though live he was a hurricane of a mess.

[FreddyFender]

As for Greg's claims: I don't think you can get definitively prove anything outside of the accepted timeline. Don is so full of shit these days that I think his memory has been thoroughly distorted by the lies he tells himself. I think the only thing you could do here is get on Instagram and ask George directly about it. Lynch at times has been pretty candid with fans.

It's pretty clear to me that Greg didn't have a hand in Paris is Burning riff since Mick and George were cutting a fully developed demo of it way back in 1977.

But did stuff Greg came up with end up on Breaking The Chains? Probably. I'm sure every guy that came and went from Dokken influenced the songs and contributed little bits here and there that the band kept after they were gone. But it probably goes back to the argument we have a lot around here - what Greg believes deserves a songwriting credit may or may not qualify for what legally counts as "songwriting." Don also pretty clearly has no problem taking credit for other peoples songs.

Back to "Paris is Burning" - My only remaining thought is that Greg felt Dokken stole some of his songs for Breaking The Chains, so he shamelessly lifted "Paris is Burning" in return.

[aznsquirt]

Re: The Nikki discussion. I definitely would never be surprised or find it hard to believe anything to do with studio/ghost musicians, but I do think people are too quick to believe any kind of rumors like that because "it happened all the time".

I mean, for years there was a rumor that Steve Bailey played all of the bass on Appetite for Destruction, which is so obviously not true to anyone with half an ear. But anytime someone would say anything to the contrary everyone would just say "lol bro studio musicians are totally a thing, stop burying your head in the sand", etc.

Back to "Paris is Burning" - My only remaining thought is that Greg felt Dokken stole some of his songs for Breaking The Chains, so he shamelessly lifted "Paris is Burning" in return.

Haha, I like this theory.