Tom Brady : least valuable player?

[thejuggernaut]

How about YOU tell US which ones you consider to be gunslingers.

Okay, first of all the only "cautious" ones on the list are Griese, Montana, Hostetler, Aikman, Brady, and Dilfer. But that doesn't mean the others are all gunslingers either. I think that some of those guys are not really one extreme or the other, but more of a happy medium. However, I think any of the following could be called gunslingers:

Roger Staubach
Terry Bradshaw
Ken Stabler
Jim Plunkett
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Steve Young
Brett Favre
John Elway
Kurt Warner
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning

There are no "somewhat" gungslingers. Gunslinging is not something halfway.

The ones who do NOT belong on the list as gungslingers are:

Young
Elway
Peyton
Eli

[SkyDog112046]

The Patriots had a gunslinger QB. He was fun to watch, and he won a bunch of games. But he also blew a bunch of games with stupid throws at the end of games where just throwing the ball away and punting would have won the game. The coach realized this tendency and replaced him with a guy who was better at managing games and wouldn't make stupid mistakes that cost his team.

A prime example of a big game that Drew Bledsoe lost:
1997, first year with Pete Carroll. The Patriots were leading the Steelers by 8 points coming into the 2 minute warning. This game was for home field advantage in the playoffs. NE had the ball near mid-field just into Pitt territory. It was 3rd & 5 or 3rd & 6. A 1st down basically ends the game. But even if they didn't get it pinning the Steelers deep would have ended the game because Kordell Stewart wasn't driving them very effectively at that point and NE's D was good - McGinnest, Bruschi, Law, Milloy, etc... So the safe play would have been to run the ball, or even throw deep because Bledsoe had a great arm and getting an INT at the 5 yard line would have been just like a punt. Even dumping it off to his All-Pro TE over the middle would have been safe at this point. There was really only one bad play at this point - dumping it off in the flat where it could either be picked off or NE could lose yardage. And that is exactly what the $10M Arm/10c Head QB did. Vrabel picked it off and returned it for a TD. Pittsburgh went for 2 to tie it, and then ended up winning the game.

His coaches and teammates tired of him losing games like that and when the opportunity presented itself in 2001 Bellichick made the change to a QB who wouldn't do stupid shit like that on a regular basis.

[Monsters_of_Rock]

How about YOU tell US which ones you consider to be gunslingers.

Okay, first of all the only "cautious" ones on the list are Griese, Montana, Hostetler, Aikman, Brady, and Dilfer. But that doesn't mean the others are all gunslingers either. I think that some of those guys are not really one extreme or the other, but more of a happy medium. However, I think any of the following could be called gunslingers:

Roger Staubach
Terry Bradshaw
Ken Stabler
Jim Plunkett
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Steve Young
Brett Favre
John Elway
Kurt Warner
Peyton Manning
Eli Manning

There are no "somewhat" gungslingers. Gunslinging is not something halfway.

The ones who do NOT belong on the list as gungslingers are:

Young
Elway
Peyton
Eli

A. I never called anybody a somewhat gunslinger. I said that not all QBs are one extreme or the other.

B. Young, Elway, and the Mannings are most definitely gunslingers. Especially Elway. Brady was too but only for that one year.

[Monsters_of_Rock]

The Patriots had a gunslinger QB. He was fun to watch, and he won a bunch of games. But he also blew a bunch of games with stupid throws at the end of games where just throwing the ball away and punting would have won the game. The coach realized this tendency and replaced him with a guy who was better at managing games and wouldn't make stupid mistakes that cost his team.

A prime example of a big game that Drew Bledsoe lost:
1997, first year with Pete Carroll. The Patriots were leading the Steelers by 8 points coming into the 2 minute warning. This game was for home field advantage in the playoffs. NE had the ball near mid-field just into Pitt territory. It was 3rd & 5 or 3rd & 6. A 1st down basically ends the game. But even if they didn't get it pinning the Steelers deep would have ended the game because Kordell Stewart wasn't driving them very effectively at that point and NE's D was good - McGinnest, Bruschi, Law, Milloy, etc... So the safe play would have been to run the ball, or even throw deep because Bledsoe had a great arm and getting an INT at the 5 yard line would have been just like a punt. Even dumping it off to his All-Pro TE over the middle would have been safe at this point. There was really only one bad play at this point - dumping it off in the flat where it could either be picked off or NE could lose yardage. And that is exactly what the $10M Arm/10c Head QB did. Vrabel picked it off and returned it for a TD. Pittsburgh went for 2 to tie it, and then ended up winning the game.

His coaches and teammates tired of him losing games like that and when the opportunity presented itself in 2001 Bellichick made the change to a QB who wouldn't do stupid shit like that on a regular basis.

Which QB played for the Patriots in their victory over the Steelers in the 2001 AFC Championship game?

[thejuggernaut]

There are no "somewhat" gungslingers. Gunslinging is not something halfway.

The ones who do NOT belong on the list as gungslingers are:

Young
Elway
Peyton
Eli

A. I never called anybody a somewhat gunslinger. I said that not all QBs are one extreme or the other.

B. Young, Elway, and the Mannings are most definitely gunslingers. Especially Elway. Brady was too but only for that one year.

That's the point. There is no such thing as an extreme gunslinger and a moderate gunslinger. There is no middle ground.

There are gunslingers and there are managers.

Young - mobile QB, specializing in dump offs, slant routes and skinny posts and did not take unnecessary risks with his arm.

Elway - not a gunslinger. After his first couple of years of learning, he settled down and became a playmaker and later became a full blown game manager.

Mannings - Eli has made plenty of mistakes from inexperience, but he is not a gunslinger. Nor is Peyton a gunslinger.

Brady - that year he was not a gunslinger. He threw a lot of passes, but gunslinging is not about volume - it's about timing. Brady piloted a 16-0 regular season team and was within a few seconds of a SB having driven them to a lead with little time left only to have his defense fail. Brady didn't cost his team any games that year.

Gunslingers have a live by the sword die by the sword mentality. A "I am not throwing it out of bounds, I'll make a play" mentality.

That epitomizes Brett Favre. Case in point for his slinging mentality - you stand by the notion that he was hurt last year and that was the reason for his high interception output (despite the fact that he had thrown 13 ints in 11 games when he allegedly got hurt).

And that's just it right there. He was hurt, yet he still kept trying to win games with his arm.

That's what gunslingers do - they make stupid decisions at the worst time. That's why when QBs are called gunslingers, it's a backhanded compliment - "he has a great arm, but man he is in love with it a little too much"

Now if you want to say it wasn't gunslinging stupidity then what would you call that ?

[Monsters_of_Rock]

There are no "somewhat" gungslingers. Gunslinging is not something halfway.

The ones who do NOT belong on the list as gungslingers are:

Young
Elway
Peyton
Eli

A. I never called anybody a somewhat gunslinger. I said that not all QBs are one extreme or the other.

B. Young, Elway, and the Mannings are most definitely gunslingers. Especially Elway. Brady was too but only for that one year.

That's the point. There is no such thing as an extreme gunslinger and a moderate gunslinger. There is no middle ground.

There are gunslingers and there are managers.

Young - mobile QB, specializing in dump offs, slant routes and skinny posts and did not take unnecessary risks with his arm.

Elway - not a gunslinger. After his first couple of years of learning, he settled down and became a playmaker and later became a full blown game manager.

Mannings - Eli has made plenty of mistakes from inexperience, but he is not a gunslinger. Nor is Peyton a gunslinger.

Brady - that year he was not a gunslinger. He threw a lot of passes, but gunslinging is not about volume - it's about timing. Brady piloted a 16-0 regular season team and was within a few seconds of a SB having driven them to a lead with little time left only to have his defense fail. Brady didn't cost his team any games that year.

Gunslingers have a live by the sword die by the sword mentality. A "I am not throwing it out of bounds, I'll make a play" mentality.

That epitomizes Brett Favre. Case in point for his slinging mentality - you stand by the notion that he was hurt last year and that was the reason for his high interception output (despite the fact that he had thrown 13 ints in 11 games when he allegedly got hurt).

And that's just it right there. He was hurt, yet he still kept trying to win games with his arm.

That's what gunslingers do - they make stupid decisions at the worst time. That's why when QBs are called gunslingers, it's a backhanded compliment - "he has a great arm, but man he is in love with it a little too much"

Now if you want to say it wasn't gunslinging stupidity then what would you call that ?

You don't get it. Not every QB has to be labeled as either a gunslinger or a game manager. Take Joe Theismann for example. While he wasn't an overly cautious game manager type QB, he wasn't exactly a gunslinger either. He was somewhere in between those two extremes.

Gunslinging isn't about stupidity, it's about playing to win. The cautious game manager style is more about playing not to lose. You can get away with that if you have a great team around you, but for 99% of QBs it doesn't work out that way.

[thejuggernaut]

The Patriots had a gunslinger QB. He was fun to watch, and he won a bunch of games. But he also blew a bunch of games with stupid throws at the end of games where just throwing the ball away and punting would have won the game. The coach realized this tendency and replaced him with a guy who was better at managing games and wouldn't make stupid mistakes that cost his team.

A prime example of a big game that Drew Bledsoe lost:
1997, first year with Pete Carroll. The Patriots were leading the Steelers by 8 points coming into the 2 minute warning. This game was for home field advantage in the playoffs. NE had the ball near mid-field just into Pitt territory. It was 3rd & 5 or 3rd & 6. A 1st down basically ends the game. But even if they didn't get it pinning the Steelers deep would have ended the game because Kordell Stewart wasn't driving them very effectively at that point and NE's D was good - McGinnest, Bruschi, Law, Milloy, etc... So the safe play would have been to run the ball, or even throw deep because Bledsoe had a great arm and getting an INT at the 5 yard line would have been just like a punt. Even dumping it off to his All-Pro TE over the middle would have been safe at this point. There was really only one bad play at this point - dumping it off in the flat where it could either be picked off or NE could lose yardage. And that is exactly what the $10M Arm/10c Head QB did. Vrabel picked it off and returned it for a TD. Pittsburgh went for 2 to tie it, and then ended up winning the game.

His coaches and teammates tired of him losing games like that and when the opportunity presented itself in 2001 Bellichick made the change to a QB who wouldn't do stupid shit like that on a regular basis.

Which QB played for the Patriots in their victory over the Steelers in the 2001 AFC Championship game?

Both played

And the Pats nearly choked the game away because of Bledsoe's incompetence.

[thejuggernaut]

You don't get it. Not every QB has to be labeled as either a gunslinger or a game manager. Take Joe Theismann for example. While he wasn't an overly cautious game manager type QB, he wasn't exactly a gunslinger either. He was somewhere in between those two extremes.

Gunslinging isn't about stupidity, it's about playing to win. The cautious game manager style is more about playing not to lose. You can get away with that if you have a great team around you, but for 99% of QBs it doesn't work out that way.

LOL

Yet there are a hell of a lot more rings on the fingers of those cautious game managers than there are on the fingers of the gunslingers.

LOL at Theismann. He had ONE season where he somewhat aired it out. The rest of the time he was a manager, spreading the ball around.

Incidentally, that one season where he aired it out (acting like a gunslinger, if you will) is the time his team managed an awesome 3 field goals in the biggest game of the year with him throwing 2 ints, one of them being a pick 6 from his OWN 5 yard line.

ALSO incidentally, the winning Qb was Plunkett who was a mad bomberish 16-25 for 172 with 1 td and 0 ints.

LOL

Holy fuck man, think these things through will you.

You just gave a PERFECT example of cautious game management trumping gunslinging.

[Monsters_of_Rock]

You don't get it. Not every QB has to be labeled as either a gunslinger or a game manager. Take Joe Theismann for example. While he wasn't an overly cautious game manager type QB, he wasn't exactly a gunslinger either. He was somewhere in between those two extremes.

Gunslinging isn't about stupidity, it's about playing to win. The cautious game manager style is more about playing not to lose. You can get away with that if you have a great team around you, but for 99% of QBs it doesn't work out that way.

LOL

Yet there are a hell of a lot more rings on the fingers of those cautious game managers than there are on the fingers of the gunslingers.

LOL at Theismann. He had ONE season where he somewhat aired it out. The rest of the time he was a manager, spreading the ball around.

Incidentally, that one season where he aired it out (acting like a gunslinger, if you will) is the time his team managed an awesome 3 field goals in the biggest game of the year with him throwing 2 ints, one of them being a pick 6 from his OWN 5 yard line.

ALSO incidentally, the winning Qb was Plunkett who was a mad bomberish 16-25 for 172 with 1 td and 0 ints.

LOL

Holy fuck man, think these things through will you.

You just gave a PERFECT example of cautious game management trumping gunslinging.

Do you even know the definition of the term game manager? It's actually a backhanded compliment (just ask Trent Dilfer). A QB who is asked to manage a game is one that the team does not trust to put the team on his back and carry them to victory. A game manager is a QB who is asked to just not lose the game, while a gunslinger is asked to go out and win the game.

[thejuggernaut]

You don't get it. Not every QB has to be labeled as either a gunslinger or a game manager. Take Joe Theismann for example. While he wasn't an overly cautious game manager type QB, he wasn't exactly a gunslinger either. He was somewhere in between those two extremes.

Gunslinging isn't about stupidity, it's about playing to win. The cautious game manager style is more about playing not to lose. You can get away with that if you have a great team around you, but for 99% of QBs it doesn't work out that way.

LOL

Yet there are a hell of a lot more rings on the fingers of those cautious game managers than there are on the fingers of the gunslingers.

LOL at Theismann. He had ONE season where he somewhat aired it out. The rest of the time he was a manager, spreading the ball around.

Incidentally, that one season where he aired it out (acting like a gunslinger, if you will) is the time his team managed an awesome 3 field goals in the biggest game of the year with him throwing 2 ints, one of them being a pick 6 from his OWN 5 yard line.

ALSO incidentally, the winning Qb was Plunkett who was a mad bomberish 16-25 for 172 with 1 td and 0 ints.

LOL

Holy fuck man, think these things through will you.

You just gave a PERFECT example of cautious game management trumping gunslinging.

Do you even know the definition of the term game manager? It's actually a backhanded compliment (just ask Trent Dilfer). A QB who is asked to manage a game is one that the team does not trust to put the team on his back and carry them to victory. A game manager is a QB who is asked to just not lose the game, while a gunslinger is asked to go out and win the game.

So, that's your big comeback when your own words blew up in your face ?

LOL

[SkyDog112046]

The Patriots had a gunslinger QB. He was fun to watch, and he won a bunch of games. But he also blew a bunch of games with stupid throws at the end of games where just throwing the ball away and punting would have won the game. The coach realized this tendency and replaced him with a guy who was better at managing games and wouldn't make stupid mistakes that cost his team.

A prime example of a big game that Drew Bledsoe lost:
1997, first year with Pete Carroll. The Patriots were leading the Steelers by 8 points coming into the 2 minute warning. This game was for home field advantage in the playoffs. NE had the ball near mid-field just into Pitt territory. It was 3rd & 5 or 3rd & 6. A 1st down basically ends the game. But even if they didn't get it pinning the Steelers deep would have ended the game because Kordell Stewart wasn't driving them very effectively at that point and NE's D was good - McGinnest, Bruschi, Law, Milloy, etc... So the safe play would have been to run the ball, or even throw deep because Bledsoe had a great arm and getting an INT at the 5 yard line would have been just like a punt. Even dumping it off to his All-Pro TE over the middle would have been safe at this point. There was really only one bad play at this point - dumping it off in the flat where it could either be picked off or NE could lose yardage. And that is exactly what the $10M Arm/10c Head QB did. Vrabel picked it off and returned it for a TD. Pittsburgh went for 2 to tie it, and then ended up winning the game.

His coaches and teammates tired of him losing games like that and when the opportunity presented itself in 2001 Bellichick made the change to a QB who wouldn't do stupid shit like that on a regular basis.

Which QB played for the Patriots in their victory over the Steelers in the 2001 AFC Championship game?

Both played, because Brady got hurt and Bledsoe needed to come in. He made a beautiful touch pass into the corner of the endzone for a TD. And then proceeded to alternate nice throws with dumb plays and it almost ended up costing his team again. Good thing his defense bailed him out.

But the real thing to focus on here is that Bellichick opted to go with an 85% healthy first year starter QB in Brady over a completely healthy veteran Bledsoe two weeks later in the Superbowl. And he was rewarded when Brady brought his team down the field for a FG to win it as time expired. That last drive was text book game management, something Bledsoe would never have done. And we can sit here and debate it all we want, but the fact is that one of the greatest coaches in NFL history knew it and made the right decision. It's not really for anyone else to debate.

[WTF]

And Brady only has 28 4th quarter comebacks...

[thejuggernaut]

The Patriots had a gunslinger QB. He was fun to watch, and he won a bunch of games. But he also blew a bunch of games with stupid throws at the end of games where just throwing the ball away and punting would have won the game. The coach realized this tendency and replaced him with a guy who was better at managing games and wouldn't make stupid mistakes that cost his team.

A prime example of a big game that Drew Bledsoe lost:
1997, first year with Pete Carroll. The Patriots were leading the Steelers by 8 points coming into the 2 minute warning. This game was for home field advantage in the playoffs. NE had the ball near mid-field just into Pitt territory. It was 3rd & 5 or 3rd & 6. A 1st down basically ends the game. But even if they didn't get it pinning the Steelers deep would have ended the game because Kordell Stewart wasn't driving them very effectively at that point and NE's D was good - McGinnest, Bruschi, Law, Milloy, etc... So the safe play would have been to run the ball, or even throw deep because Bledsoe had a great arm and getting an INT at the 5 yard line would have been just like a punt. Even dumping it off to his All-Pro TE over the middle would have been safe at this point. There was really only one bad play at this point - dumping it off in the flat where it could either be picked off or NE could lose yardage. And that is exactly what the $10M Arm/10c Head QB did. Vrabel picked it off and returned it for a TD. Pittsburgh went for 2 to tie it, and then ended up winning the game.

His coaches and teammates tired of him losing games like that and when the opportunity presented itself in 2001 Bellichick made the change to a QB who wouldn't do stupid shit like that on a regular basis.

Which QB played for the Patriots in their victory over the Steelers in the 2001 AFC Championship game?

Both played, because Brady got hurt and Bledsoe needed to come in. He made a beautiful touch pass into the corner of the endzone for a TD. And then proceeded to alternate nice throws with dumb plays and it almost ended up costing his team again. Good thing his defense bailed him out.

But the real thing to focus on here is that Bellichick opted to go with an 85% healthy first year starter QB in Brady over a completely healthy veteran Bledsoe two weeks later in the Superbowl. And he was rewarded when Brady brought his team down the field for a FG to win it as time expired. That last drive was text book game management, something Bledsoe would never have done. And we can sit here and debate it all we want, but the fact is that one of the greatest coaches in NFL history knew it and made the right decision. It's not really for anyone else to debate.

You can make a case that the only reason Favre has his "only" ring is because the QB lined up opposite him in the big one was an even bigger penny head than Favre.

In a battle of stupid vs stupid, less stupid wins.

[Monsters_of_Rock]

And Brady only has 28 4th quarter comebacks...

How many does Favre have?

[Monsters_of_Rock]

So, that's your big comeback when your own words blew up in your face ?

LOL

Nothing blew up in my face. A gunslinger plays to win, a game manager plays not to lose. Case closed.

[SkyDog112046]

You can make a case that the only reason Favre has his "only" ring is because the QB lined up opposite him in the big one was an even bigger penny head than Favre.

Bledsoe's line from that Superbowl:
25 of 48 for 253 yds, 2 TDs, & 4 INTs

His best year in NE his QB rating was 87.7 - that was the year of his gaffe vs Pitt. Overall his rating is 77.

In 1999 the Patriots started out 6-2 and then Bledsoe finished up the last 8 games with 6 TD's and 17 INTs. Having a 3-1 INT to TD ratio is symptomatic of a gunslinger shooting himself in the foot. They ended up 8-8.

Bledsoe has a career post season 54.9 QB Rating and a 3-3 record.

Brady's QB Rating: 93.3. Brady's single best season: 117.2 QB rating. He has an 89 post season QB rating, and a 14-3 post season record as a starter.

In a battle of stupid vs stupid, less stupid wins.

That is just beautiful! Bledsoe was about as stupid as they get, Favre is just less stupid than Bledsoe.

[SkyDog112046]

So, that's your big comeback when your own words blew up in your face ?

LOL

Nothing blew up in my face. A gunslinger plays to win, a game manager plays not to lose. Case closed.

Pssssst. Here is a tip. The QB's that are cautious with the football have won the most Superbowls by an overwhelming margin. It's something along the lines of 40-3.

Jim Kelly, Kurt Warner, Drew Bledsoe, and Brett Favre are all gunslingers who have been to the Superbowl. Their record is a combined 2-7. And 1 of those wins was gunslinger vs less stupid gunslinger as Juggernaut previously mentioned.

[thejuggernaut]

So, that's your big comeback when your own words blew up in your face ?

LOL

Nothing blew up in my face. A gunslinger plays to win, a game manager plays not to lose. Case closed.

And the example you provided had the game manager winning the Super Bowl and the gunslinger costing his team.

Case closed indeed.

Moron.

[Monsters_of_Rock]

So, that's your big comeback when your own words blew up in your face ?

LOL

Nothing blew up in my face. A gunslinger plays to win, a game manager plays not to lose. Case closed.

Pssssst. Here is a tip. The QB's that are cautious with the football have won the most Superbowls by an overwhelming margin. It's something along the lines of 40-3.

Jim Kelly, Kurt Warner, Drew Bledsoe, and Brett Favre are all gunslingers who have been to the Superbowl. Their record is a combined 2-7. And 1 of those wins was gunslinger vs less stupid gunslinger as Juggernaut previously mentioned.

Wrong!!!

Terry Bradshaw, Joe Namath, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler, Jim Plunkett, John Elway, Brett Favre, Peyton Manning... and the list goes on.

That's a lot more than three.

The ONLY game managers to win Super Bowls are Griese, Montana, Aikman, Dilfer, and Brady.

[bane]

Peyton Manning is a gunslinger? Wow, I knew you were a Farve guy MOR, and assumed that you had some purple colored glasses, but you just proved that you don't know a damn thing about football. Props.

[SkyDog112046]

Wrong!!!

Terry Bradshaw, Joe Namath, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler, Jim Plunkett, John Elway, Brett Favre, Peyton Manning... and the list goes on.

That's a lot more than three.

The ONLY game managers to win Super Bowls are Griese, Montana, Aikman, Dilfer, and Brady.

Bradshaw wan't a gunslinger. He spent a lot of time handing off to Harris & Bleier and a lot of his passes were safe sideline routes to Swann & Stallworth.

Namath was a gunslinger, for sure. And other than his 1 SB his numbers were bad and his teams never came close to winning again. And I counted him as 1 of the 3.

Staubach was not a gunslinger. He played under a very conservative coach who wouldn't have tolerated that stuff. He was smart and rarely just threw a ball up for grabs, other than the 1 Hail Mary he is famous for. When he retired he was the highest rated passer of all time - which doesn't happen to a guy who just flings it around.

Stabler may fit the gunslinger profile more than the rest you named - so I'll give you that one. That makes 4 out of 43.

Plunkett was not a gunslinger by the time he got to Oakland. He may have been one in NE, but he was also getting himself killed there and would not have lasted another couple of seasons.

Elway was early on in his career - and it's partially why his team was 0-4 in SBs. He was much smarter later on in his career and had a workhorse RB in Davis to hand off to. He was managing games by the time he won those 2 SBs.

Favre is most certainly a gunslinger. And I already counted him as 1-1 in SBs, his 1 win being against a no-brain gunslinger who threw before he thought.

If you think Peyton Manning is a gunslinger you must be on crack. Manning is one of the most cerebral QBs ever to play the game. He takes what the opposing defense gives him.

I think your definition of gunslinger is off-base. A gunslinger isn't a guy who throws a lot, it's a guy who comes out throwing no matter what and throws passes that he shouldn't that ultimately end up costing his team. Hell, they are FUN to watch, they just don't win many championships. Most of them usually cost their team a game that gets them eliminated prior to the Superbowl. Just like Favre did 2 seaons ago when he coughed up the NFC Championship at Lambeau. The ones that come to mind most are Fouts, Favre, Kelly, Bledsoe, and Namath. I count 2 rings and a lot of heartache among that bunch.

[Monsters_of_Rock]

Peyton Manning is a gunslinger? Wow, I knew you were a Farve guy MOR, and assumed that you had some purple colored glasses, but you just proved that you don't know a damn thing about football. Props.

Dude... he's passed for 4,000+ yards in 9 of his 11 seasons in the NFL. He's had four seasons of 30+ TD passes. For his career he ranks 4th all-time in pass attempts per game (33.9) and 12th all-time in average yards per pass attempt (7.7). He doesn't dink and dunk, he throws the ball downfield. He takes what he wants, not what the defense gives him. If you don't think he's a gunslinger, then perhaps you are the one who doesn't know a damn thing about football.

[thejuggernaut]

Wrong!!!

Terry Bradshaw, Joe Namath, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler, Jim Plunkett, John Elway, Brett Favre, Peyton Manning... and the list goes on.

That's a lot more than three.

The ONLY game managers to win Super Bowls are Griese, Montana, Aikman, Dilfer, and Brady.

Bradshaw wan't a gunslinger. He spent a lot of time handing off to Harris & Bleier and a lot of his passes were safe sideline routes to Swann & Stallworth.

Namath was a gunslinger, for sure. And other than his 1 SB his numbers were bad and his teams never came close to winning again. And I counted him as 1 of the 3.

Staubach was not a gunslinger. He played under a very conservative coach who wouldn't have tolerated that stuff. He was smart and rarely just threw a ball up for grabs, other than the 1 Hail Mary he is famous for. When he retired he was the highest rated passer of all time - which doesn't happen to a guy who just flings it around.

Stabler may fit the gunslinger profile more than the rest you named - so I'll give you that one. That makes 4 out of 43.

Plunkett was not a gunslinger by the time he got to Oakland. He may have been one in NE, but he was also getting himself killed there and would not have lasted another couple of seasons.

Elway was early on in his career - and it's partially why his team was 0-4 in SBs. He was much smarter later on in his career and had a workhorse RB in Davis to hand off to. He was managing games by the time he won those 2 SBs.

Favre is most certainly a gunslinger. And I already counted him as 1-1 in SBs, his 1 win being against a no-brain gunslinger who threw before he thought.

If you think Peyton Manning is a gunslinger you must be on crack. Manning is one of the most cerebral QBs ever to play the game. He takes what the opposing defense gives him.

I think your definition of gunslinger is off-base. A gunslinger isn't a guy who throws a lot, it's a guy who comes out throwing no matter what and throws passes that he shouldn't that ultimately end up costing his team. Hell, they are FUN to watch, they just don't win many championships. Most of them usually cost their team a game that gets them eliminated prior to the Superbowl. Just like Favre did 2 seaons ago when he coughed up the NFC Championship at Lambeau. The ones that come to mind most are Fouts, Favre, Kelly, Bledsoe, and Namath. I count 2 rings and a lot of heartache among that bunch.

The 3 biggest gunslingers in the league today are Favre, Cutler and Delhomme.

The one thing they all have in common ? They are turnover machines.

In fact, if not for Favre's gem vs the Rams, Delhomme's game vs Arizona in last year's playoffs would be the greatest QB meltdown in history.

Ironically, Delhomme lost his only SB appearance to one of those useless game managers.

LOL

[Monsters_of_Rock]

The 3 biggest gunslingers in the league today are Favre, Cutler and Delhomme.

The one thing they all have in common ? They are turnover machines.

In fact, if not for Favre's gem vs the Rams, Delhomme's game vs Arizona in last year's playoffs would be the greatest QB meltdown in history.

Ironically, Delhomme lost his only SB appearance to one of those useless game managers.

LOL[/color][/size]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Favre is NOT a turnover machine. His career INT percentage is only 3.3%, which is 0.1% lower than the career INT percentage of Phil Simms (3.4%).

Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

[thejuggernaut]

Peyton Manning is a gunslinger? Wow, I knew you were a Farve guy MOR, and assumed that you had some purple colored glasses, but you just proved that you don't know a damn thing about football. Props.

Dude... he's passed for 4,000+ yards in 9 of his 11 seasons in the NFL. He's had four seasons of 30+ TD passes. For his career he ranks 4th all-time in pass attempts per game (33.9) and 12th all-time in average yards per pass attempt (7.7). He doesn't dink and dunk, he throws the ball downfield. He takes what he wants, not what the defense gives him. If you don't think he's a gunslinger, then perhaps you are the one who doesn't know a damn thing about football.

Again, you are equating gunslinging with offensive output.

Peyton Manning was bred to play QB. He knows when to throw the ball away and does throw the ball away.

He's arguably the smartest QB to ever play the game.

By default, he can't be a gunslinger, because gunslingers are morons.

He was prone to turnovers EARLY in his career, but he's since become a game manager.

Notice how the Colts have gone from mediocre to a top team and it not so coincidentally has paralleled Manning's development into a manager.

To his credit, he's managing the game well this year. However, history has shown it's just a matter of time before Favre starts being Favre.

Since his Super Bowl seasons, he's averaged WAY over an INT per game. 9 of 11 years over an INT per game. The two seasons he didn't he threw 15 ints.

A Super Bowl winning QB with 6 years experience shouldn't be tossing that many INTs. It's not like there's been a few seasons with bad turnovers - it's been his entire career since the SB seasons.

176 games. 215 INTs. When your entire job as a QB is to control the game and keep your team moving, giving the ball back to the opposing team regularly is a colossal failure to do the job the way it's supposed to be done.

Notice how Mike Holmgren, mentor of Steve Young, Joe Montana and Brett Favre, couldn't wait to get out of GB when Favre's ego got out of control. And notice how Mike Holmgren, mentor of Joe Montana, Steve Young and Brett Favre, wanted no part of Favre again, or anyone like Favre, and opted to go with a guy like Matt Hasselbeck.

Although things may play out differently as the season unfolds, notice how Josh McDaniels, Tom Brady's coach, had no qualms at all about having Kyle Orton run his team after trying to get rid of Cutler (aka Brett Favre jr).

In fact, notice how Lovie Smith had no qualms about turning his team back over to Orton instead of putting up with Grossman again.

If coaches/GMs have a CHOICE, they will take the cerebral QB over the gunslinger. Unless you're the Detroit Lions. And their history speaks for itself.

[thejuggernaut]

The 3 biggest gunslingers in the league today are Favre, Cutler and Delhomme.

The one thing they all have in common ? They are turnover machines.

In fact, if not for Favre's gem vs the Rams, Delhomme's game vs Arizona in last year's playoffs would be the greatest QB meltdown in history.

Ironically, Delhomme lost his only SB appearance to one of those useless game managers.

LOL[/color][/size]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Favre is NOT a turnover machine. His career INT percentage is only 3.3%, which is 0.1% lower than the career INT percentage of Phil Simms (3.4%).

Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Brett Favre has over 1 INT/Game.

Thanks for playing, better Favre ballwashing next time.



The Brett Favre Problem

20 Aug 2009 02:23 pm
I think Cold Hard Football Facts make a good case that Brett Favre--the Brett Favre of today--is not a very good quarterback. I had actually forgotten how many big games Favre has blown in recent years. Moreover, I knew the dude through a lot of interceptions--but the most in a single season in over twenty years:

Favre ended the disastrous 2005 season with 29 INTs. Since 1980, only Vinny Testaverde has thrown more picks in a season (35 in 1988)...

It's all part of a four-year trend of substandard play for Favre. These are Favre's cumulative numbers over the past four seasons (three with the Packers, one with the Jets):

*
1414 of 2277 (62.1%), 15,393 yards, 6.76 YPA, 88 TD, 84 INT, 79.5 passer rating

His volume numbers are great - attempts, completions, yards - which means that teams still believe they can win by letting Favre gun the ball all over the field. His completion percentage is actually pretty strong, too.

But the all-important efficiency numbers - the numbers that mean the difference between victory and defeat - are mediocre to bad. In an era when a 2-to-1 INT-to-TD ratio is considered great, Favre's nearly 1-to-1 ratio is pretty pathetic. His passer rating is slightly below average. And his yards per attempt are slightly below average.


And then there's the big games. A few choice selections:

Jan. 20, 2002
The reality: The Packers have a shot to reach the conference championship game for first time since the 1997 season if they beat Rams in the divisional round.

The Favre apologist fantasy: The 12-4 Packers were no match for the 14-2 Rams

The Cold, Hard Football Facts: The Rams edged out the 11-5 Eagles by just five points in the conference title game and lost to the 11-5 Patriots in the Super Bowl. The Packers easily could have beat the Rams if Favre had not thrown 6 picks - tying the single-game NFL record for postseason picks last matched by a passer back in 1955.

The 2006 season
The reality: Packers climb back to respectability with an 8-8 record.

The Favre apologist fantasy: Favre helped the blind to see.

The Cold, Hard Football Facts: Favre had trouble focusing on the field, with a 72.7 passer rating that was among the worst in football that season. The list of quarterbacks with a better rating in 2006 included some of the most widely ridiculed passers in football: David Carr (82.1), Michael Vick (75.7), Alex Smith (74. and Rex Grossman (73.9)

Jan. 20, 2008
The reality: The 13-3 Packers were favored at home against the 10-6 Giants on one of the coldest nights in Lambeau Field history.

The Favre apologist fantasy: The Packers ran into a buzzsaw and lost to the eventual Super Bowl champs.

The Cold, Hard Football Facts: Favre, and the Packers offense, suffered one of the most colossal collapses in history. In the fourth quarter and overtime, Favre completed 4 of 10 passes for 32 yards with 2 INTs. Green Bay's final four drives, with a Super Bowl appearance easily within its grasp, went for 0, 7, 0 and 2 yards. Favre's final pick, on the second play of overtime, led directly to the Giants' game-winning field goal.

But at least he's a gunslinger!

Seriously, how do you throw six interceptions in a playoff game?

_____________________________________________________________

Brett Favre’s 6 Greatest Interception Fests of All Time


Love him or hate him, you have to admit, Brett Favre is a legend whose legacy will never be forgotten. With that said, in our case, we hate him and the legacy we choose to never forget is the one that involves him spending the latter part of his career as the most prolific interception throwing machine in NFL history. There was a time when, in a 4th-quarter-two-minute-drive situation, Brett Favre was absolutely lethal. That time was 1996-1997. Since then, it’s been a non-stop parade of wobbly passes chucked up into the stratosphere with the game on the line and hauled in by the defense, effectively killing the dreams of legions of “cheeseheads.” And the occasional New Yorker also. Good times.


6. September 10th, 2006 – Packers vs. Bears

To kick off the first of what would be many “farewell” seasons for Favre, the Packers took on the eventual NFC champion Chicago Bears in the home opener at Lambeau Field. While soon-to-be poster boy for all that is unholy at the quarterback position Rex Grossman moved the ball up and down the field with relative ease, Favre threw just five passes for a meager 70 yards in the first half. But eventually, the real Brett Favre shone through. And by that, of course, I mean he started chucking the ball everywhich way but correct and ended up with two fourth quarter interceptions.

While the game had little to no playoff implications, it is notable for being the first ever shutout of Brett Favre’s career, with the Bears winning 26-0. He would get his revenge though when the Packers knocked off the by-then division champion Bears on New Year’s Eve during the final game of the season. And then he started sobbing like a girl before he even made it to the locker room. In his defense though, it was a pretty heavy moment in that it was the last time he would ever imply that he was going to retire without everyone within ear shot rolling their eyes and barely containing their disgust.


5. The Last Five Games of the 2008 Season

If Vikings fans are curious as to what they have to look forward to in 2009, they need look no further than Favre’s guffaw inspiring end to his 2008 stint with the New York Jets. Through week 11, the Jets were an impressive 8-3 under Favre’s elderly leadership. And then, all hell broke loose.

Over the last five games, Favre threw an impressive nine interceptions while putting up just two TD passes. The Jets lost four of those last five games. Things got so tense in the Jets camp that at one point RB Thomas Jones suggested that Favre should have been benched after throwing 3 INT’s in one game. He wasn’t benched, of course. In fact, he was selected to represent the AFC in the Pro Bowl. Makes sense.

All indications at the end of 2008 were that Favre’s geriatric cannon had run out of gas. In what has to be a promising sign for Vikings fans, Favre briefly considered not coming back because, after an offseason spent working out, he was exhausted. And the season hasn’t even started.


4. January 20th, 2008 – NFC Championship

Throughout the entire 2007 season, there were but two topics on the lips of every media outlet when it came time to discuss the NFL…Brett Favre and the New England Patriots. This made the 2007 season different from most other seasons in absolutely no way. For New England, all of the talk centered around their march to a nearly perfect season that ended in the most perfect way possible for anyone outside of New England. As for Favre, he was in the midst of his second farewell tour with the Packers and was within reach of just about every passing record imaginable. Whatever, we were just psyched that he broke the all time interception record.

By all standards, it was an impressive season for Favre. A season that extended all the way to the NFC Championship game where the Packers hosted the New York Football Giants. If we can digress for a second, why the hell do people still say “the New York Football Giants?” The baseball Giants left New York seven hundred years ago. Stop it. Anyway, yeah, Favre took them to the NFC Championship. It was at Lambeau. It was cold. The Packers rightfully should have won. Fortunately, once overtime rolled around, Favre reverted to his late-career form and chucked up an ill advised pass to Donald Driver that was promptly intercepted by the Giants’ Corey Webster. On the ensuing possession, the Giants would kick the game winning field goal, thus saving the world from a Super Bowl that would have had absolutely no chance of ending well. Either Favre was going to win another Super Bowl, or the Patriots perfect season would be complete. Either way, we all would have lost.


3. January 11th, 2004 – NFC Divisional Playoff

It would take a real asshole to not appreciate Brett Favre’s 2003 performance on Monday Night Football just one day after his father died of a heart attack. Even the Raider fans were cheering him on, and they’re a bunch of douchebags! But that’s just one game. By the end of the season, just about everyone was tired of hearing about the “magic” and how “something special” was happening during the Packers improbable playoff run.

When the Packers rolled into Philadelphia for the NFC Divisional Playoff, all signs pointed to another Packers victory. And then, the wheels fell off. With a 3-point lead, the Packers had the Eagles stopped at 4th and 26. For any team with the ghost of Brett’s dad at their back, that should have been enough for the win. But nay! Freddie Mitchell somehow found himself open over the middle for a 28 yard completion. A few plays later, the game was tied and headed into overtime. It’s at this point that Brett Favre’s father apparently tuned out.

After the Eagles went three and out on their first possession of overtime, Brett Favre took over. And by “took over” we mean “immediately hurled what looked less like a pass and more like a punt in the direction of Brian Dawkins who hauled it in for an interception”. A few plays later, a David Akers field goal ended the Packers run to the Super Bowl. Awesome.


2. January 4th, 2003 – NFC Wild Card Playoff

Hey, Michael Vick, there’s a name we haven’t heard in awhile! Wonder what that guy is up to these days? Anyway, back in 2003, Michael Vick was the youngest quarterback in the NFL. It was widely believed that his Atlanta Falcons had absolutely no chance against the mighty Packers in the NFC Wild Card Playoff that year. Vick had never seen action in the playoffs. The Packers had never lost a home playoff game and were 35-0 at Lambeau when the temperature was 34 degrees or less. The temperature that night was 28. It wasn’t looking good for Vick and the Falcons. At least not until the game actually started.

Vick and the Falcons played flawless football and by half time had amassed an insurmountable 24-0 lead. After leading Green Bay to a touchdown on their first drive of the second half, Favre’s killer instinct took over. Unfortunately for him, that instinct killed any chance of a comeback. On their next six possessions, the Pack committed four turnovers, including an interception and a lost fumble by Favre. Classic Brett.

1. January 20th, 2002 – NFC Divisional Playoff
There are shitty performances, and then there are games like this. Nobody really expected the Packers to go on the road and take out the St. Louis Rams’ Greatest Show on Turf. But damn, what people expected even less was for Brett Favre to bust out his absolute worst performance of all time.

Six, COUNT EM’, SIX, interceptions. Three of those interceptions were returned for touchdowns. Another was returned to the 4 yard line and led to another touchdown moments later. Of the Rams 45 points, only 17 were not in some way related to Brett Favre’s interception-y shenanigans. We almost feel more comfortable making jokes about his dad, because this performance is way more depressing.

This would begin a long string of games in which, afterwards, nobody wanted to say what everybody knew. Brett Favre played like trash in pressure situations and it cost them the game. From here on, every season would be riddled with questions about how much longer he would play. Seven years and several teary eyed press conferences later, we still have no idea.

[bane]

Peyton Manning is a gunslinger? Wow, I knew you were a Farve guy MOR, and assumed that you had some purple colored glasses, but you just proved that you don't know a damn thing about football. Props.

Dude... he's passed for 4,000+ yards in 9 of his 11 seasons in the NFL. He's had four seasons of 30+ TD passes. For his career he ranks 4th all-time in pass attempts per game (33.9) and 12th all-time in average yards per pass attempt (7.7). He doesn't dink and dunk, he throws the ball downfield. He takes what he wants, not what the defense gives him. If you don't think he's a gunslinger, then perhaps you are the one who doesn't know a damn thing about football.

You seem to be unaware of the definition of "gunslinger". A gunslinger throws the ball no matter what. He forces things. He'll force the ball into coverage. He'll try for a completion to a covered receiver on a busted play instead of throwing out of bounds. He'll take sacks. It has nothing to do with how much he throws it. It has everything to do with the situation when he does it. Manning is probably the smartest QB to ever man the position. He will throw down field when it's open. He'll also throw underneath when it isn't open down field. He doesn't take sacks and he doesn't throw picks. If you don't think he takes what the defense gives him you haven't watched many Indy games. He is the opposite of a "gunslinger".

[UtahRatt]

Anyone watch the Top 10 Clutch QB's on the NFL network?

The only time they mentioned Farve was saying part of being a clutch QB is by not making bad decisions during clutch moments!

10. Dan Marino
9. Steve Young
8. Bart Starr
7. Otto Graham
6. Ken Stabler
5. Johnny Unitas
4. Roger Staubach
3. TOM BRADY
2. John Elway
1. Joe Montana


http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story?id= ... nfirm=true

[Monsters_of_Rock]

Peyton Manning is a gunslinger? Wow, I knew you were a Farve guy MOR, and assumed that you had some purple colored glasses, but you just proved that you don't know a damn thing about football. Props.

Dude... he's passed for 4,000+ yards in 9 of his 11 seasons in the NFL. He's had four seasons of 30+ TD passes. For his career he ranks 4th all-time in pass attempts per game (33.9) and 12th all-time in average yards per pass attempt (7.7). He doesn't dink and dunk, he throws the ball downfield. He takes what he wants, not what the defense gives him. If you don't think he's a gunslinger, then perhaps you are the one who doesn't know a damn thing about football.

Again, you are equating gunslinging with offensive output.

Peyton Manning was bred to play QB. He knows when to throw the ball away and does throw the ball away.

He's arguably the smartest QB to ever play the game.

By default, he can't be a gunslinger, because gunslingers are morons.

He was prone to turnovers EARLY in his career, but he's since become a game manager.

Notice how the Colts have gone from mediocre to a top team and it not so coincidentally has paralleled Manning's development into a manager.

To his credit, he's managing the game well this year. However, history has shown it's just a matter of time before Favre starts being Favre.

Since his Super Bowl seasons, he's averaged WAY over an INT per game. 9 of 11 years over an INT per game. The two seasons he didn't he threw 15 ints.

A Super Bowl winning QB with 6 years experience shouldn't be tossing that many INTs. It's not like there's been a few seasons with bad turnovers - it's been his entire career since the SB seasons.

176 games. 215 INTs. When your entire job as a QB is to control the game and keep your team moving, giving the ball back to the opposing team regularly is a colossal failure to do the job the way it's supposed to be done.

Notice how Mike Holmgren, mentor of Steve Young, Joe Montana and Brett Favre, couldn't wait to get out of GB when Favre's ego got out of control. And notice how Mike Holmgren, mentor of Joe Montana, Steve Young and Brett Favre, wanted no part of Favre again, or anyone like Favre, and opted to go with a guy like Matt Hasselbeck.

Although things may play out differently as the season unfolds, notice how Josh McDaniels, Tom Brady's coach, had no qualms at all about having Kyle Orton run his team after trying to get rid of Cutler (aka Brett Favre jr).

In fact, notice how Lovie Smith had no qualms about turning his team back over to Orton instead of putting up with Grossman again.

If coaches/GMs have a CHOICE, they will take the cerebral QB over the gunslinger. Unless you're the Detroit Lions. And their history speaks for itself.

That's right, I am equating gunslinging with offensive output. Favre is a gunslinger according to my defintion of the term, but not according to your definition.

[SkyDog112046]

If you could have any one QB for the following situation, who would it be?

You are the coach, it's the Superbowl, you're down by 4 points, there is 1:30 left, you have 1 timeout, and the ball is on your own 20.










The correct answer is Joe Montana. John Elway and Tom Brady are acceptable answers as well.





The opposing coach is hoping you are sending old #4 in so that after the 2 completions and the inevitable INT he can have his QB take a knee and then go and collect his Lombardi Trophy.