McGwire admits steroid use

[bane]

Oh come the fuck on. The question was whether or not it helps or hinders a performance. The question was never whether or not it was a stimulant. From your comments it's painfully obvious that you've either A: never had much experience with it or B. you're making shit up just to enhance your argument. It doesn't take prolonged abuse to hinder performance. Does it wake you up? Yes, it does, but if you want to see a singer lose his voice after 3 songs, give him a couple of bumps before he goes onstage. In addition, it doesn't take "prolonged abuse" to cause you to stay up all fucking night getting absolutely no sleep, which I can tell you fucks up more performances than anything else. You can be gacked out of your mind and wide the fuck awake, but if you haven't slept in 2 days you're still going to suck. Your voice will sound like you've been gargling with razor blades and your drummer's meter will be all over the place because he can't get his exhausted body to keep up with his very wired brain. The same goes for every other instrument. In short, it will cause far more harm than good. Ask any musician who has ever toured on any level and he'll tell you that your best firend on the road is sleep. Blow doesn't replace sleep, in fact it does the polar opposite.

[Crazy Levi]

Yeah, but there aren't statistical records that drug-induced musicians are competing for to break. So their drug usage, even if it's a performance-enhancer, hurts nobody else or any sort of perceived 'integrity.'

Holy fuck...this whole analogy is so fucking stupid that I can't help but get sucked into it.

Well, playing big purple advocate, how about sales records? Should Def Lep get credit for that 10X platinum hysteria when they were obviously loaded on coke? Should we revoke Back in Black's 25X platinum status since they were "aided" by alcohol when they wrote and played it?

I'm just waiting for someone to bring Cars into this. The cargument is still the gold-standard for idiotic analogies.

[thejuggernaut]

How many musicians and football players were called to testify about it ?

Who in football or music cried wolf? Jose dropped some high profile names in his book. And the ironic thing about it was it only took one positive test of one of the mentioned to start the domino effect.

I don't agree with how Jose went about it, but I have to respect the fact that he is making alot of overpaid, glorified heros accountable for their actions.

Every time NFL players thank god, their teammates, coaches and everything BUT the PEDs/PDDs they're taking, they're lying to millions of people.

Not unless they have been proven quilty. Unless you have proof of which god thanking player has been doping.

You're naive if you think the NFL HOF and records books aren't full of juicers.

Sure. And good on them for not having the truth tarnish it if it's true.

Your wolf crying question - no musician has ever talked their their drug exploits ? News to...........the entire world.

Dopers proof - do you actually WATCH the NFL ?

HOF - So your issue is NOT with juicers, but with the getting caught part.

[thejuggernaut]

Yeah, but there aren't statistical records that drug-induced musicians are competing for to break. So their drug usage, even if it's a performance-enhancer, hurts nobody else or any sort of perceived 'integrity.'

Really ?

I am pretty sure tour gross, merch sales, record sales are tracked and, as a band stays active and popular, the prices increase, thus the fan "suffers".

In fact, I am pretty sure "best selling album of the year/all time" and "highest grossing tour of the year/all time" are terms used an awful lot with regards to bands/musicians.

[thejuggernaut]

Oh come the fuck on. The question was whether or not it helps or hinders a performance. The question was never whether or not it was a stimulant.

Yeah, you're right. Lots of people in need of energy take Melatonin and Gravol before an intense activity.

I am not even going to bother with the rest of your drivel. "The question was never whether or not it was a stimulant."

Really ? I am pretty sure I am the one who brought musicians on drugs into the topic. You're the idiot who brought heroin into it when I made NO mention of heroin. I was talking about Cocaine from the get go and Cocaine is a stimulant which enhances performance.

[Crazy Levi]

Really ? I am pretty sure I am the one who brought musicians on drugs into the topic. You're the idiot who brought heroin into it when I made NO mention of heroin. I was talking about Cocaine from the get go and Cocaine is a stimulant which enhances performance.

Now, I hate to bring sanity into this, but you are aware we are talking about baseball and not music, right?

[thejuggernaut]

Really ? I am pretty sure I am the one who brought musicians on drugs into the topic. You're the idiot who brought heroin into it when I made NO mention of heroin. I was talking about Cocaine from the get go and Cocaine is a stimulant which enhances performance.

Now, I hate to bring sanity into this, but you are aware we are talking about baseball and not music, right?

See last post on page 2.

[Crazy Levi]

See last post on page 2.

I just did. It's ridiculous. Apples and oranges. I'm surprised everyone took the bait. But hey lets talk about cars.

[bane]

Oh come the fuck on. The question was whether or not it helps or hinders a performance. The question was never whether or not it was a stimulant.

Yeah, you're right. Lots of people in need of energy take Melatonin and Gravol before an intense activity.

I am not even going to bother with the rest of your drivel. "The question was never whether or not it was a stimulant."

Really ? I am pretty sure I am the one who brought musicians on drugs into the topic. You're the idiot who brought heroin into it when I made NO mention of heroin. I was talking about Cocaine from the get go and Cocaine is a stimulant which enhances performance.

You never said a fucking thing about cocaine until after I specified, blow, smack and booze. You said "musicians take performance enhancing drugs", and no, cocaine does not enhance a musician's performance, which I explained to you quite clearly in my "drivel". You really ought to stick to the drugs that you know something about, you know, like steroids. And kindly go fuck yourself for the "idiot" comment.

[thejuggernaut]

The key is THEIR drug exploits. Do you really think in the world of "sex, drugs, and rock n roll" that anyone in the media would give a flying fuck about Jon Bon Jovi accusing Paul Stanley of being a crack addict and writting about it in Play Girl?

You guys complaining about this need to ask yourselves a question (two questions to some) and I don't want any bullshit qualifiers.

1. For those of you who are football fans, why are you fans ? Surely you realize a staggering amount of pro football players are on PEDs/PDDs. I don't want any bullshit answers like "but....but....but...if they're not caught, they're not guilty". That's ignorance. You know DAMN WELL they are juicing. I also don't want to hear anything about "cultural acceptance involved with the sport"

2. Why on earth are you music fans, especially hair metal ? So many musicians use drugs to enhance their performance. Surely most of you (possibly all) are fans of at least one band with a drug history. You are paying for a "fraud" in that the entertainment you spend money on is not natural. Again, I don't want to hear any bullshit about cultural acceptance of the vocation.

MLB is in the business of entertainment, just like football and music. It is not a game. So, why do you accept PDDs/PEDs in football and PEDs/PDDs in music but not baseball ? And please, none of this tradition, sacred game bullshit because it's a BUSINESS and I'll reference the never ending string of "cheaters" in the Black Sox, spitballers, bat corkers, emory boarders, sandpaperers, sign stealers, pitch tippers etc etc.

Yes, because someone is 250 pounds and muscular one is to automatically assume that he is on the juice?

The average fat pig and scrawny piece of trash thinks anyone with muscle is a juicer. However, for those in the know regarding all things involving physical training, juicers are quite easy to spot.

The thought of steriods in hockey never crossed my mind until it was revealed a few years ago. But the difference was, same as the NFL, you don't have former/current stars targeting others about their "abuse".

Weird, because in the 90s there was a problem that was rampant in the NHL. As the 98 Olympics approached, the revelation that many teams had Sudafed dispensers in their dressing rooms and players were swallowing handfuls before the game and between periods, which would be a concern for the Olympic doping rules.

Yet....no further probing was done.

Innocent until proven quilty I say.

Great.

[thejuggernaut]

Oh come the fuck on. The question was whether or not it helps or hinders a performance. The question was never whether or not it was a stimulant.

Yeah, you're right. Lots of people in need of energy take Melatonin and Gravol before an intense activity.

I am not even going to bother with the rest of your drivel. "The question was never whether or not it was a stimulant."

Really ? I am pretty sure I am the one who brought musicians on drugs into the topic. You're the idiot who brought heroin into it when I made NO mention of heroin. I was talking about Cocaine from the get go and Cocaine is a stimulant which enhances performance.

You never said a fucking thing about cocaine until after I specified, blow, smack and booze. You said "musicians take performance enhancing drugs", and no, cocaine does not enhance a musician's performance, which I explained to you quite clearly in my "drivel". You really ought to stick to the drugs that you know something about, you know, like steroids. And kindly go fuck yourself for the "idiot" comment.

So, you need someone to clarify that depressants aren't stimulants thus aren't performance enhancers ?

An increase in energy in enhancing the performance. If you're dragging your ass and you get wired from a few lines and take the stage in a storm, that's an enhancement.

[thejuggernaut]

See last post on page 2.

I just did. It's ridiculous. Apples and oranges. I'm surprised everyone took the bait. But hey lets talk about cars.

No, it's really not.

The music one is a bit of stretch. Regardless, it's still the entertainment business.

However, football is a pro sport with athletes using PEDs/PDDs.

If anything, it's like a McIntosh vs a Granny Smith.

[bane]

So, you need someone to clarify that depressants aren't stimulants thus aren't performance enhancers ?

An increase in energy in enhancing the performance. If you're dragging your ass and you get wired from a few lines and take the stage in a storm, that's an enhancement.

Playing music isn't a sport. A stimulant is no more of an automatic enhancement than a depressant to a musical performance. A lot of people like to have a drink before they perform to calm their nerves for example.

[thejuggernaut]

So, you need someone to clarify that depressants aren't stimulants thus aren't performance enhancers ?

An increase in energy in enhancing the performance. If you're dragging your ass and you get wired from a few lines and take the stage in a storm, that's an enhancement.

Playing music isn't a sport. A stimulant is no more of an automatic enhancement than a depressant to a musical performance. A lot of people like to have a drink before they perform to calm their nerves for example.

That's great. For them, it enhances their performance.

Playing music (I should probably clarify rock/hard rock/metal because someone might think I mean acoustic coffeehouse singers) is a phsyical activity. A tired person gets a boost from Cocaine, Ephedrine, Sudafed, Caffeine etc.

Even pot is an enhancement to some. Just like booze, it's an unnatural substance.

And remember, performance depends on the artist.

I am sure you'll agree that performance to David Lee Roth means something totally different than to someone like Bruce Dickinson.

Bruce Dickinson's #1 trait is his voice. It's not in his best interests to consume substances that can have adverse effects.

DLR, on the other hand, has never been know for his vocal prowess. His voice is almost irrelevant. Performance for him is his banter and theatrics.

There's no questioning DLR did a lot of cocaine, and there's no questioning Van Halen was one of the all time heavy hitters when he was on board.

[bane]

I can go along with that I suppose. I guess it depends on what your interpretation of enhanced is. I've seen Roth fumbling through the words and drunk off his ass more than once. He pretty much sucked, but, he was Roth, so it didn't matter. I don't see that the drugs made him any better, except for possibly in his own mind. Most drug guys will end up rationalizing their use by making excuses like some of the things you've outlined. You know "I need it to get out of my bunk, I'm tired". etc., but more often than not it's just a rationalization for feeding their jones. I've never met anybody who started getting high because it helped them with the gig. They started for the party, then kept it going to stave off the after effects to get through the gig and ultimately get to the point where they don't think they can function without it. I guess once you're strung out then it'll enhance your performance, when the alternative is being hung over and feeling like complete shit. Some guys think they need a buzz just to get through the jitters, some guys like to be wired, but my point is, at the end of the day, they're better without them. They always do more harm than good in the end.

[thejuggernaut]

I can go along with that I suppose. I guess it depends on what your interpretation of enhanced is. I've seen Roth fumbling through the words and drunk off his ass more than once. He pretty much sucked, but, he was Roth, so it didn't matter. I don't see that the drugs made him any better, except for possibly in his own mind. Most drug guys will end up rationalizing their use by making excuses like some of the things you've outlined. You know "I need it to get out of my bunk, I'm tired". etc., but more often than not it's just a rationalization for feeding their jones. I've never met anybody who started getting high because it helped them with the gig. They started for the party, then kept it going to stave off the after effects to get through the gig and ultimately get to the point where they don't think they can function without it. I guess once you're strung out then it'll enhance your performance, when the alternative is being hung over and feeling like complete shit. Some guys think they need a buzz just to get through the jitters, some guys like to be wired, but my point is, at the end of the day, they're better without them. They always do more harm than good in the end.

I won't dispute that, but human psychology is a fascinating thing and history of full of cases where psychology trumps all, hence placebos.

Now, let's just talk about someone's first ever gig. He's nervous as fuck. He does some lines and gets his euphoria on and goes out and kicks ass.

Clearly it enhanced his performance. That isn't universal for EVERYONE; some people might experience more of the paranoia and jitters side effects. However, by and large, a one shot deal enhances performance in that type of situation. It's part of the reason why it's so popular.

Chances are, he'll get superstitious and keep at it, at which points it becomes a hindrance.

Or, maybe he's ok after that first gig. However, maybe 2 years later after getting beaten down by living out of a suitcase he just "isn't feeling it" so he blasts some lines and goes out and kicks ass. Clearly that is enhancing his performance.

Vocation and discipline play a part, for sure. I would argue that bands playing "acid rock" for acid freaks get their best results when they actually take acid. In pretty much every other walk of life (except, maybe, painting) acid doesn't enhance ANYTHING. In this case it would.

Back to baseball. A pitcher using sustanon, cypionate, enanthate, suspension etc probably will be hindered more than enhanced. However, a pitcher using primobolan and/or deca will be enhanced.

You can ALMOST make the argument than Bonds' performance was no enhanced. His slugging prowess most certainly was, without question. However, Bonds was a 5 tool player who was as dangerous on the basepaths as he was at the plate. There was a time where you had to pitch to Bonds because walking him did you no favors. However, during his stacked years, he was very one dimensional. That one dimension was astonishingly good, but I am not sure, based on Bonds's genetic predisposition to the sport, had his performance enhanced.

[bane]

I won't dispute that, but human psychology is a fascinating thing and history of full of cases where psychology trumps all, hence placebos.

Now, let's just talk about someone's first ever gig. He's nervous as fuck. He does some lines and gets his euphoria on and goes out and kicks ass.

Clearly it enhanced his performance. That isn't universal for EVERYONE; some people might experience more of the paranoia and jitters side effects. However, by and large, a one shot deal enhances performance in that type of situation. It's part of the reason why it's so popular.

Chances are, he'll get superstitious and keep at it, at which points it becomes a hindrance.

Or, maybe he's ok after that first gig. However, maybe 2 years later after getting beaten down by living out of a suitcase he just "isn't feeling it" so he blasts some lines and goes out and kicks ass. Clearly that is enhancing his performance.

Vocation and discipline play a part, for sure. I would argue that bands playing "acid rock" for acid freaks get their best results when they actually take acid. In pretty much every other walk of life (except, maybe, painting) acid doesn't enhance ANYTHING. In this case it would.

Back to baseball. A pitcher using sustanon, cypionate, enanthate, suspension etc probably will be hindered more than enhanced. However, a pitcher using primobolan and/or deca will be enhanced.

You can ALMOST make the argument than Bonds' performance was no enhanced. His slugging prowess most certainly was, without question. However, Bonds was a 5 tool player who was as dangerous on the basepaths as he was at the plate. There was a time where you had to pitch to Bonds because walking him did you no favors. However, during his stacked years, he was very one dimensional. That one dimension was astonishingly good, but I am not sure, based on Bonds's genetic predisposition to the sport, had his performance enhanced.

That's not a bad take on it. Your scenario is accurate, but my experience has been that more often than not it quickly becomes a hindrance.

Your take on Bonds is interesting. After watching him in Pittsburgh where he was an above average defender as well as a dangerous hitter, and constant threat on the basepaths, then his morph into the gigantor homerun guy that he became, I've wondered for a long time why he opted to go that route. I came to the conclusion that chicks dig the long ball.

[Leppardmania]

McGwire + Steriods = more home runs..............the guy cheated, period. Close thread.

[thejuggernaut]

I won't dispute that, but human psychology is a fascinating thing and history of full of cases where psychology trumps all, hence placebos.

Now, let's just talk about someone's first ever gig. He's nervous as fuck. He does some lines and gets his euphoria on and goes out and kicks ass.

Clearly it enhanced his performance. That isn't universal for EVERYONE; some people might experience more of the paranoia and jitters side effects. However, by and large, a one shot deal enhances performance in that type of situation. It's part of the reason why it's so popular.

Chances are, he'll get superstitious and keep at it, at which points it becomes a hindrance.

Or, maybe he's ok after that first gig. However, maybe 2 years later after getting beaten down by living out of a suitcase he just "isn't feeling it" so he blasts some lines and goes out and kicks ass. Clearly that is enhancing his performance.

Vocation and discipline play a part, for sure. I would argue that bands playing "acid rock" for acid freaks get their best results when they actually take acid. In pretty much every other walk of life (except, maybe, painting) acid doesn't enhance ANYTHING. In this case it would.

Back to baseball. A pitcher using sustanon, cypionate, enanthate, suspension etc probably will be hindered more than enhanced. However, a pitcher using primobolan and/or deca will be enhanced.

You can ALMOST make the argument than Bonds' performance was no enhanced. His slugging prowess most certainly was, without question. However, Bonds was a 5 tool player who was as dangerous on the basepaths as he was at the plate. There was a time where you had to pitch to Bonds because walking him did you no favors. However, during his stacked years, he was very one dimensional. That one dimension was astonishingly good, but I am not sure, based on Bonds's genetic predisposition to the sport, had his performance enhanced.

That's not a bad take on it. Your scenario is accurate, but my experience has been that more often than not it quickly becomes a hindrance.

Your take on Bonds is interesting. After watching him in Pittsburgh where he was an above average defender as well as a dangerous hitter, and constant threat on the basepaths, then his morph into the gigantor homerun guy that he became, I've wondered for a long time why he opted to go that route. I came to the conclusion that chicks dig the long ball.

It makes sense, really. And one last point to my take on Bonds. Again, one aspect of his game was very much enhanced, best the rest suffered, so was it really an enhancement ? Bonds, being a multiple 30/30 guy and a 40/40 guy (missing a second 40/40 by 3 sb), true "performance enhancement" of HIS game would have been 50/50.

The psychology behind his quest to become a behemoth is quite simple.

Here he was, arguably the best baseball player ever. He had just come off 3 amazing years finishing at age 34, including pulling off 40/40 after the age of 30, yet nobody talked about it.

Clearly he had more natural talent than McGwire or Sosa.

Now, here he saw these two one dimensional sluggers getting nothing but love.

Then, in 1999, he was omitted from the all century team.

By 1999, he had:

400 + HRs
400 + SBs
1,400 + BBs
1,300 RBI
400 + 2bs
1,400 + RS
3 MVP awards (at that point, one of a select few in elite company and arguably should have won it in 92 and 96 as well)
8 time all star
8 time Gold Glove Winner
7 time Silver Slugger

Yet, in spite of that, he was left off the all century team.

Clearly he was pissed and took a "you know what, fuck all y'all. I'll show em what happens when someone like me does what they're doing" stance.

[thejuggernaut]

McGwire + Steriods = more home runs..............the guy cheated, period. Close thread.

Leppardmania + whining = faggot. Noone is forcing you to read this, period. Ignore thread.

[Crazy Levi]

I hate to break up this fascinating discussion about music and which drugs do or do not "enhance" its' performance, but I'll just say this. In a giant purple font.

Baseball culture sucks, and baseball "purists" are the biggest bunch of soppy wet pussies around.

Wasn't always this way. The game used to have a healthy attitude about cheating - "You've got to cheat to win" Rogers Hornsby said. Players cheated because they wanted to win, and if you got caught you took your lumps. But it has gotten so...soviet. Players get written out of the official history - no matter how great their achievement - because the league doesn't like how they comported themselves during an investigation, or because the league arbitrarily, after-the-fact decides that this kind of cheating gets you erased while this other kind of cheating is a lovable part of the game...it is just weird.
Seriously, I can't tell you how many times I have had to listen to douche-bag baseball fans say - "How am I supposed to explain to my kid that his hero - Mark McGwire (or Barry Bonds, or Roger Clemens) - is a cheater?"
All I am saying - how am I supposed to explain to my kid that Major League Baseball is run by something like the Chinese government? "And, son, that's what is waiting for you if you screw up - we're going to act like you never existed - we're going to have you airbrushed out of the vacation photos."

[thejuggernaut]

I hate to break up this fascinating discussion about music and which drugs do or do not "enhance" its' performance, but I'll just say this. In a giant purple font.

Baseball culture sucks, and baseball "purists" are the biggest bunch of soppy wet pussies around.

Wasn't always this way. The game used to have a healthy attitude about cheating - "You've got to cheat to win" Rogers Hornsby said. Players cheated because they wanted to win, and if you got caught you took your lumps. But it has gotten so...soviet. Players get written out of the official history - no matter how great their achievement - because the league doesn't like how they comported themselves during an investigation, or because the league arbitrarily, after-the-fact decides that this kind of cheating gets you erased while this other kind of cheating is a lovable part of the game...it is just weird.
Seriously, I can't tell you how many times I have had to listen to douche-bag baseball fans say - "How am I supposed to explain to my kid that his hero - Mark McGwire (or Barry Bonds, or Roger Clemens) - is a cheater?"
All I am saying - how am I supposed to explain to my kid that Major League Baseball is run by something like the Chinese government? "And, son, that's what is waiting for you if you screw up - we're going to act like you never existed - we're going to have you airbrushed out of the vacation photos."

Absolutely well said.

It's a multibillion dollar business and god forbid people take any advantage they can.

It's not like the NFL or NHL where juicers collide into each other. A juicer hits a ball. Nobody gets hurt by player a injecting himself.

The best part was ""How am I supposed to explain to my kid that his hero - Mark McGwire (or Barry Bonds, or Roger Clemens) - is a cheater?".

You tell him the same thing you do when you find out his musical idols are junkies.

[JakeYonkel]

I don't know if you've read "Game of Shadows" (based on your post, I would assume so) but you're pretty close to accurate. Despite the fact that Bonds coul have retired in 1999 or 2000 and waltzed into the HOF, he was insanely jealous over the attention McGwire and Sosa got during the summer of '98.

There's still no causative link between 'roid usage and performance. People are quick to indict the superstars that use them to get better (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, ARod, Manny, whatever) but are quick to flat out ignore the scrubs that take them and seemingly get no benefit whatsoever.

Do they enhance performance? Ie. if you suck it's not going to make you better, but if you're already good they could make you great. Maybe.

Either way, it's hard to deny the fact that a lot of guys between say, 1995-2005 were playing at a high level into their late 30s/early 40s than ever before. Really since that time period guys are starting to suck when they should, as Griffey has broken down, Chipper Jones has a tough time staying on the field, etc. Giambi got off the stuff and missed chunks of like 3 straight years.

It's difficult to conceive a guy continuing to blast home runs well into his 40s at the rate which Bonds did. He never hit more than like 45 until 2001 (when he turned 37) and it was bonkers from then on. Biologically athletes are not supposed to get better at that age. You're supposed to start to break down and suck!

[thejuggernaut]

I don't know if you've read "Game of Shadows" (based on your post, I would assume so) but you're pretty close to accurate. Despite the fact that Bonds coul have retired in 1999 or 2000 and waltzed into the HOF, he was insanely jealous over the attention McGwire and Sosa got during the summer of '98.

There's still no causative link between 'roid usage and performance. People are quick to indict the superstars that use them to get better (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, ARod, Manny, whatever) but are quick to flat out ignore the scrubs that take them and seemingly get no benefit whatsoever.

Do they enhance performance? Ie. if you suck it's not going to make you better, but if you're already good they could make you great. Maybe.

Either way, it's hard to deny the fact that a lot of guys between say, 1995-2005 were playing at a high level into their late 30s/early 40s than ever before. Really since that time period guys are starting to suck when they should, as Griffey has broken down, Chipper Jones has a tough time staying on the field, etc. Giambi got off the stuff and missed chunks of like 3 straight years.

It's difficult to conceive a guy continuing to blast home runs well into his 40s at the rate which Bonds did. He never hit more than like 45 until 2001 (when he turned 37) and it was bonkers from then on. Biologically athletes are not supposed to get better at that age. You're supposed to start to break down and suck!

I have not read it. I had no interest in contributing to those swine and their witch hunt/vendetta.

It's just easy read Bonds, even if only through a TV screen.

[bane]

I hate to break up this fascinating discussion about music and which drugs do or do not "enhance" its' performance, but I'll just say this. In a giant purple font.

Baseball culture sucks, and baseball "purists" are the biggest bunch of soppy wet pussies around.

Wasn't always this way. The game used to have a healthy attitude about cheating - "You've got to cheat to win" Rogers Hornsby said. Players cheated because they wanted to win, and if you got caught you took your lumps. But it has gotten so...soviet. Players get written out of the official history - no matter how great their achievement - because the league doesn't like how they comported themselves during an investigation, or because the league arbitrarily, after-the-fact decides that this kind of cheating gets you erased while this other kind of cheating is a lovable part of the game...it is just weird.
Seriously, I can't tell you how many times I have had to listen to douche-bag baseball fans say - "How am I supposed to explain to my kid that his hero - Mark McGwire (or Barry Bonds, or Roger Clemens) - is a cheater?"
All I am saying - how am I supposed to explain to my kid that Major League Baseball is run by something like the Chinese government? "And, son, that's what is waiting for you if you screw up - we're going to act like you never existed - we're going to have you airbrushed out of the vacation photos."

Well said. If I haven't been clear on this point, let me reiterrate, I don't think any records should be struck, I don't think anybody should have an asterisk beside their record and I don't think anybody should be kept out of the HOA over this shit. I do think that a testing program with some teeth in it is a good idea. Will players find a way around it? Sure they will, but at least MLB will be making some kind of token effort.

[killeverything]

I hate to break up this fascinating discussion about music and which drugs do or do not "enhance" its' performance, but I'll just say this. In a giant purple font.

Baseball culture sucks, and baseball "purists" are the biggest bunch of soppy wet pussies around.

Wasn't always this way. The game used to have a healthy attitude about cheating - "You've got to cheat to win" Rogers Hornsby said. Players cheated because they wanted to win, and if you got caught you took your lumps. But it has gotten so...soviet. Players get written out of the official history - no matter how great their achievement - because the league doesn't like how they comported themselves during an investigation, or because the league arbitrarily, after-the-fact decides that this kind of cheating gets you erased while this other kind of cheating is a lovable part of the game...it is just weird.
Seriously, I can't tell you how many times I have had to listen to douche-bag baseball fans say - "How am I supposed to explain to my kid that his hero - Mark McGwire (or Barry Bonds, or Roger Clemens) - is a cheater?"
All I am saying - how am I supposed to explain to my kid that Major League Baseball is run by something like the Chinese government? "And, son, that's what is waiting for you if you screw up - we're going to act like you never existed - we're going to have you airbrushed out of the vacation photos."

Well said. If I haven't been clear on this point, let me reiterrate, I don't think any records should be struck, I don't think anybody should have an asterisk beside their record and I don't think anybody should be kept out of the HOA over this shit. I do think that a testing program with some teeth in it is a good idea. Will players find a way around it? Sure they will, but at least MLB will be making some kind of token effort.

Nope. They fucking cheated. I want them out of the Hall. If you won't let Pete Rose be on the nomination, they shouldn't either.

[thejuggernaut]

I hate to break up this fascinating discussion about music and which drugs do or do not "enhance" its' performance, but I'll just say this. In a giant purple font.

Baseball culture sucks, and baseball "purists" are the biggest bunch of soppy wet pussies around.

Wasn't always this way. The game used to have a healthy attitude about cheating - "You've got to cheat to win" Rogers Hornsby said. Players cheated because they wanted to win, and if you got caught you took your lumps. But it has gotten so...soviet. Players get written out of the official history - no matter how great their achievement - because the league doesn't like how they comported themselves during an investigation, or because the league arbitrarily, after-the-fact decides that this kind of cheating gets you erased while this other kind of cheating is a lovable part of the game...it is just weird.
Seriously, I can't tell you how many times I have had to listen to douche-bag baseball fans say - "How am I supposed to explain to my kid that his hero - Mark McGwire (or Barry Bonds, or Roger Clemens) - is a cheater?"
All I am saying - how am I supposed to explain to my kid that Major League Baseball is run by something like the Chinese government? "And, son, that's what is waiting for you if you screw up - we're going to act like you never existed - we're going to have you airbrushed out of the vacation photos."

Well said. If I haven't been clear on this point, let me reiterrate, I don't think any records should be struck, I don't think anybody should have an asterisk beside their record and I don't think anybody should be kept out of the HOA over this shit. I do think that a testing program with some teeth in it is a good idea. Will players find a way around it? Sure they will, but at least MLB will be making some kind of token effort.

Nope. They fucking cheated. I want them out of the Hall. If you won't let Pete Rose be on the nomination, they shouldn't either.

So the Sox should give back their rings since Ramirez juiced.

[JakeYonkel]

I know the Rose thing is apples and oranges but every day he's not in there and people like Jim Rice and Andre Dawson are, the place loses credibility.

If it's based on what you did on the field, I don't give a fuck if he gambled or murdered 30 people. He should be in the Hall.

[bane]

Arguably the best player of his era, yeah, he oughtta be there. Seilig is a moron and an asshole.

[killeverything]

So the Sox should give back their rings since Ramirez juiced.

You could say that, but don't forget they beat guy's that were juiced.

Our cheaters were better than their cheaters.