McGwire admits steroid use

[thejuggernaut]

So the Sox should give back their rings since Ramirez juiced.

You could say that, but don't forget they beat guy's that were juiced.

Our cheaters were better than their cheaters.

OK, so, no need to keep people from the hall then since they were putting up stats against juiced players.

[bane]

Nope. They fucking cheated. I want them out of the Hall. If you won't let Pete Rose be on the nomination, they shouldn't either.

"You"? Don't lump me in on that one. I think it's retarded that Pete isn't in the HOF.

[Machado]

Bud and all the octogenarians who have the power will never
allow Rose induction.



It's ridiculous. The sooner Bud leaves his post, the better the game will be.
Not so much from an economic standpoint. More like the game will improve because someone who actually cares about the fans and hears what the fans wants will be there to support.

[killeverything]

OK, so, no need to keep people from the hall then since they were putting up stats against juiced players.

This whole thing is rhetorical. From where I stand, I don't want them in.

Bud and all the octogenarians who have the power will never allow Rose induction.

It's ridiculous. The sooner Bud leaves his post, the better the game will be.
Not so much from an economic standpoint. More like the game will improve because someone who actually cares about the fans and hears what the fans wants will be there to support.

Selig is supposed to leave as the Commisioner in 2012. I don't think he will. As for Pete Rose. If he had a chance to be on the HOF ballot, or fave a vote from the Veteran's Committee. I don't think they would vote for him.

A lot of the players are pissed about it, since they feel ( it's never been proven which way ) he set them up to lose if he had to. I want to say it was Harold Reynolds that said "I wouldn't be surprised if some of his relievers wanted to break his nose". Keep in mind this is all opinion on the matter, and it was never proven he bet against the Reds.

The general concencus to my understanding is, the player's feel he screwed his team. So I would be surprised to see him elected if he was allowed to be eligible. It's unfortunate in a lot of ways, because the guy's numbers are up there with/even surpassed Ty Cobb.

[thejuggernaut]

OK, so, no need to keep people from the hall then since they were putting up stats against juiced players.

This whole thing is rhetorical. From where I stand, I don't want them in.

But you don't mind the Sox keeping their rings ?

[killeverything]

OK, so, no need to keep people from the hall then since they were putting up stats against juiced players.

This whole thing is rhetorical. From where I stand, I don't want them in.

But you don't mind the Sox keeping their rings ?

Nope, and I'll explain why. They beat team's that had players on steroids. Not like a "well everyone was doing it", they beat comptetion that was juicing too.

Like I stated, the whole thing is rhetorical. For the HOF discussion, only the best of the best is supposed to be in. If a player cheated for the majority of their career, or at least when the became "super human". Then I don't agree with admission. Unless it's noted that PEDs were used in the "Steroid Era". Not just "common knowledge". That's something that deserves to be marked IMO.

Unfortunately there is a lot of grey area, so to speak. So I don't know how to handle it personally. Or have 100% of an opinion of how it should be handled. Even though numbers wise the players are 1st ballot talents all the way. If they are let in, make them wait or something.

I don't know. Your turn.......

[bane]

Like I stated, the whole thing is rhetorical. For the HOF discussion, only the best of the best is supposed to be in. If a player cheated for the majority of their career, or at least when the became "super human". Then I don't agree with admission. Unless it's noted that PEDs were used in the "Steroid Era". Not just "common knowledge". That's something that deserves to be marked IMO.

Unfortunately there is a lot of grey area, so to speak. So I don't know how to handle it personally. Or have 100% of an opinion of how it should be handled. Even though numbers wise the players are 1st ballot talents all the way. If they are let in, make them wait or something.

I don't know. Your turn.......

If that's the case, where do you stand on Bonds? He was a first ballot HOF guy long before the steroid thing. Does he still get held out?

[thejuggernaut]

But you don't mind the Sox keeping their rings ?

Nope, and I'll explain why. They beat team's that had players on steroids. Not like a "well everyone was doing it", they beat comptetion that was juicing too.

Like I stated, the whole thing is rhetorical. For the HOF discussion, only the best of the best is supposed to be in. If a player cheated for the majority of their career, or at least when the became "super human". Then I don't agree with admission. Unless it's noted that PEDs were used in the "Steroid Era". Not just "common knowledge". That's something that deserves to be marked IMO.

Unfortunately there is a lot of grey area, so to speak. So I don't know how to handle it personally. Or have 100% of an opinion of how it should be handled. Even though numbers wise the players are 1st ballot talents all the way. If they are let in, make them wait or something.

I don't know. Your turn.......

HOF is based on accomplishments.

The same accomplishments that win titles are the same ones that get a person into the HOF.

So, if those accomplishments were synthetic and thus tainted enough to keep one out of the HOF, then the same should apply for WS titles.

[Heenan Snuka]

[
So, if those accomplishments were synthetic and thus tainted enough to keep one out of the HOF, then the same should apply for WS titles.[/color][/size]

noone disputes that...but there's too much degree of separation between juiced player and championship team...how much cause and effect is too up in the air...

[killeverything]

Like I stated, the whole thing is rhetorical. For the HOF discussion, only the best of the best is supposed to be in. If a player cheated for the majority of their career, or at least when the became "super human". Then I don't agree with admission. Unless it's noted that PEDs were used in the "Steroid Era". Not just "common knowledge". That's something that deserves to be marked IMO.

Unfortunately there is a lot of grey area, so to speak. So I don't know how to handle it personally. Or have 100% of an opinion of how it should be handled. Even though numbers wise the players are 1st ballot talents all the way. If they are let in, make them wait or something.

I don't know. Your turn.......

If that's the case, where do you stand on Bonds? He was a first ballot HOF guy long before the steroid thing. Does he still get held out?

Bonds is an interesting discussion specifically for that reason. When the dude was skinny he was one of the best players in baseball. I remember he and Bonilla terrorizing the NL.

Still he cheated. I think the BBWAA and Vetrans Committee will see it that way too. I think Bonds eventually will get in for that reason. McGwire, I'm not sure will ever be voted in.

Although the some of the HOF players are saying McGwire will never get their vote ( Gossage ), same with Bonds ( Aaron ).

wrote:

So, if those accomplishments were synthetic and thus tainted enough to keep one out of the HOF, then the same should apply for WS titles.



noone disputes that...but there's too much degree of separation between juiced player and championship team...how much cause and effect is too up in the air...

Exactly. You can't punish the whole team, because some guy's might ( more than likely were, but weren't caught in 2004 or 07 ) have been juicing.

Schilling is one of the guy's that's been trying to get it out of Baseball. He wasn't on it. AAAA Colordo Spring Sky Sox player Mark Bellhorn was a huge part of the team. He's never been mentioned.

Are you going to punish all of them, because Manny was caught and suspended in LA? Or because Ortiz was on the 2003 list.

How about this. Giambi tied it up against Pedro in game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. He was on roids. Saying that, do you take the MFY's win away? Sure like all big games Clemens got his ass kicked, but the one who's two HRs tied the game was juicing. Saying that do they sacrifice the Division Championship?

Ortiz was huge for Boston in his 2003 pickup. He was on the list. Where does it end?

[thejuggernaut]

[
So, if those accomplishments were synthetic and thus tainted enough to keep one out of the HOF, then the same should apply for WS titles.[/color][/size]

noone disputes that...but there's too much degree of separation between juiced player and championship team...how much cause and effect is too up in the air...

Not when the WS MVP is a juiced player.

[killeverything]

[
So, if those accomplishments were synthetic and thus tainted enough to keep one out of the HOF, then the same should apply for WS titles.[/color][/size]

noone disputes that...but there's too much degree of separation between juiced player and championship team...how much cause and effect is too up in the air...

Not when the WS MVP is a juiced player.

Keith Foulke has never been mentioned of being on PEDs.

[thejuggernaut]

Like I stated, the whole thing is rhetorical. For the HOF discussion, only the best of the best is supposed to be in. If a player cheated for the majority of their career, or at least when the became "super human". Then I don't agree with admission. Unless it's noted that PEDs were used in the "Steroid Era". Not just "common knowledge". That's something that deserves to be marked IMO.

Unfortunately there is a lot of grey area, so to speak. So I don't know how to handle it personally. Or have 100% of an opinion of how it should be handled. Even though numbers wise the players are 1st ballot talents all the way. If they are let in, make them wait or something.

I don't know. Your turn.......

If that's the case, where do you stand on Bonds? He was a first ballot HOF guy long before the steroid thing. Does he still get held out?

Bonds is an interesting discussion specifically for that reason. When the dude was skinny he was one of the best players in baseball. I remember he and Bonilla terrorizing the NL.

Still he cheated. I think the BBWAA and Vetrans Committee will see it that way too. I think Bonds eventually will get in for that reason. McGwire, I'm not sure will ever be voted in.

Although the some of the HOF players are saying McGwire will never get their vote ( Gossage ), same with Bonds ( Aaron ).

wrote:

So, if those accomplishments were synthetic and thus tainted enough to keep one out of the HOF, then the same should apply for WS titles.



noone disputes that...but there's too much degree of separation between juiced player and championship team...how much cause and effect is too up in the air...

Exactly. You can't punish the whole team, because some guy's might ( more than likely were, but weren't caught in 2004 or 07 ) have been juicing.

Schilling is one of the guy's that's been trying to get it out of Baseball. He wasn't on it. AAAA Colordo Spring Sky Sox player Mark Bellhorn was a huge part of the team. He's never been mentioned.

Are you going to punish all of them, because Manny was caught and suspended in LA? Or because Ortiz was on the 2003 list.

How about this. Giambi tied it up against Pedro in game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. He was on roids. Saying that, do you take the MFY's win away? Sure like all big games Clemens got his ass kicked, but the one who's two HRs tied the game was juicing. Saying that do they sacrifice the Division Championship?

Ortiz was huge for Boston in his 2003 pickup. He was on the list. Where does it end?

Just like you shouldn't punish juicers because the people they racked up stats against weren't CAUGHT juicing during the steroid era.

And, just what you said - they weren't caught during their stat piling years, so they shouldn't be punished.

[thejuggernaut]

Not when the WS MVP is a juiced player.

Keith Foulke has never been mentioned of being on PEDs.

And Keith Foulke won WS MVP for the Red Sox in what year, exactly ?

[killeverything]

Not when the WS MVP is a juiced player.

Keith Foulke has never been mentioned of being on PEDs.

And Keith Foulke won WS MVP for the Red Sox in what year, exactly ?

Keith Foulke should have won in 2004. Manny did because they put him on irrevocable waivers two and a half months later. Still no other team wanted that contract.

Anyone who watched that Series knows he was the MVP.

So not when the MVP is a juiced player. By MVP do you mean "most valueable"? Because that was Keith Foulke.

[Machado]

Former Cardinals and Giants slugger Jack Clark apparently isn't enamored of St. Louis' current hitting coach, especially in light of Mark McGwire's admission a few days ago that he had used steroids in 1998-99 when he played for the Cardinals and before that with the A's.

Clark told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on Thursday he was disgusted with the whole steroids issue.

"A lot of them should be banned from baseball, including Mark McGwire," Clark said. "All those guys are cheaters - A-Rod (Alex Rodriguez). Fake, phony. Rafael Palmeiro. Fake, a phony. (Roger) Clemens, (Barry) Bonds. (Sammy) Sosa. Fakes. Phonies. They don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

"They should all be in the Hall of Shame. They can afford to build it. They've all got so much money. And they could all go there and talk about the next way to rub something on your skin. The whole thing is creepy.

"They're all creeps. All these guys have been liars," Clark said.

Referring to some of the admitted steroids users' tearful apologies, Clark, who was the Los Angeles Dodgers' hitting coach several years ago, said, "They're not really a man's man. They're just whimpering boys who are just sad to watch.

"They try to put it off on somebody else. I don't know how they sleep at night, looking at all their fame, let alone the money they took by faking everybody out and lying to everybody. ... I don't know. I'd rather take my 340 home runs (11 seasons of more than 20) legitimately instead of taking that stuff to be phony."

[killeverything]

Former Cardinals and Giants slugger Jack Clark apparently isn't enamored of St. Louis' current hitting coach, especially in light of Mark McGwire's admission a few days ago that he had used steroids in 1998-99 when he played for the Cardinals and before that with the A's.

Clark told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on Thursday he was disgusted with the whole steroids issue.

"A lot of them should be banned from baseball, including Mark McGwire," Clark said. "All those guys are cheaters - A-Rod (Alex Rodriguez). Fake, phony. Rafael Palmeiro. Fake, a phony. (Roger) Clemens, (Barry) Bonds. (Sammy) Sosa. Fakes. Phonies. They don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

"They should all be in the Hall of Shame. They can afford to build it. They've all got so much money. And they could all go there and talk about the next way to rub something on your skin. The whole thing is creepy.

"They're all creeps. All these guys have been liars," Clark said.

Referring to some of the admitted steroids users' tearful apologies, Clark, who was the Los Angeles Dodgers' hitting coach several years ago, said, "They're not really a man's man. They're just whimpering boys who are just sad to watch.

"They try to put it off on somebody else. I don't know how they sleep at night, looking at all their fame, let alone the money they took by faking everybody out and lying to everybody. ... I don't know. I'd rather take my 340 home runs (11 seasons of more than 20) legitimately instead of taking that stuff to be phony."

It's statements like this that make me think none of them will get in.

The ones who are about to be eligible ( Clemens, Sosa, etc ). I think don't have a shot in hell. The ones who were exposed and now ( supposably ) clean Manny, Rodriguez. I think will have a hard time too. Well not so much Arod. Manny, yes.

Still is it just because of "cheating"? Gaylord Perry admits to never abandoning the banned spitball. Yet he's still in the HOF. Niekro admits to using emery boards to scuff balls, etc.

The whole situation is disgusting, but how do you police it?

[Machado]

It's mostly about: Which player made the most recent headlines?
I think because of the records that Mac broke back in '98 and his awful performance in front of Congress, he has a LARGE target on his back.
Last but not least, because the general consensus is that his "apology" left questions un-answered, the TARGET on his back remains.

[killeverything]

It's mostly about: Which player made the most recent headlines?
I think because of the records that Mac broke back in '98 and his awful performance in front of Congress, he has a LARGE target on his back.
Last but not least, because the general consensus is that his "apology" left questions un-answered, the TARGET on his back remains.

The target still remains, because he's still lying. He won't even come completely clean. I hope he doesn't get into the Hall.

[Machado]

It's mostly about: Which player made the most recent headlines?
I think because of the records that Mac broke back in '98 and his awful performance in front of Congress, he has a LARGE target on his back.
Last but not least, because the general consensus is that his "apology" left questions un-answered, the TARGET on his back remains.

The target still remains, because he's still lying. He won't even come completely clean. I hope he doesn't get into the Hall.

For the entertainment factor only, I hope he has a "press conference" from ST.
Imagine the meltdown he will have in front of the cameras?
Now that would make for great t.v.

[bane]

Still is it just because of "cheating"? Gaylord Perry admits to never abandoning the banned spitball. Yet he's still in the HOF. Niekro admits to using emery boards to scuff balls, etc.

That to me is the crux of the thing. If they won't let Mac in for cheating, then they need to kick those guys out.

[thejuggernaut]

And Keith Foulke won WS MVP for the Red Sox in what year, exactly ?

Keith Foulke should have won in 2004. Manny did because they put him on irrevocable waivers two and a half months later. Still no other team wanted that contract.

Anyone who watched that Series knows he was the MVP.

So not when the MVP is a juiced player. By MVP do you mean "most valueable"? Because that was Keith Foulke.

So the voters gave Manny the award because they felt bad for him and NOT because he was dominant all year ?

Keith Foulke pitched 5 innings. Sorry, that's not an MVP, seeing how the guys with the sticks and the guys who throw 5 or more innings per game are the ones who have to get him the lead.

It's not like he was John Wetteland in 1996.

Foulke was valuable in game 1 in the 11-9 slugfest.

Game 2 he came in with a 6-2 lead.

Game 3 he came in with a 4-0 lead after a nice game by Martinez, and proceeded to give up a homer.

Game 4 he got his first save in a 3-0 game that was as much or more to do with a great start by Lowe and playing a team that had essentially thrown in the towel.

So, by my count, he had a significant impact on 1 game, the first.

I think what we have here is some leftover Grady and Mac induced gratitude.

Everyone knows Foulke was brought in specifically because Little left Pedro in for too long because they didn't have faith in their bullpen. Timlin was a good setup man, but......2003 was just another in a long line of Red Sox heartbreaks that conjured up images of Bob Stanley.

Keith Foulke was an above average closer when he arrived in Boston, and he had a good 2004. However, some fans are a little too enthralled with him simply because he filled the role that was considered a weakness for so many years.

[killeverything]

And Keith Foulke won WS MVP for the Red Sox in what year, exactly ?

Keith Foulke should have won in 2004. Manny did because they put him on irrevocable waivers two and a half months later. Still no other team wanted that contract.

Anyone who watched that Series knows he was the MVP.

So not when the MVP is a juiced player. By MVP do you mean "most valueable"? Because that was Keith Foulke.

So the voters gave Manny the award because they felt bad for him and NOT because he was dominant all year ?

Keith Foulke pitched 5 innings. Sorry, that's not an MVP, seeing how the guys with the sticks and the guys who throw 5 or more innings per game are the ones who have to get him the lead.

It's not like he was John Wetteland in 1996.

Foulke was valuable in game 1 in the 11-9 slugfest.

Game 2 he came in with a 6-2 lead.

Game 3 he came in with a 4-0 lead after a nice game by Martinez, and proceeded to give up a homer.

Game 4 he got his first save in a 3-0 game that was as much or more to do with a great start by Lowe and playing a team that had essentially thrown in the towel.

So, by my count, he had a significant impact on 1 game, the first.

I think what we have here is some leftover Grady and Mac induced gratitude.

Everyone knows Foulke was brought in specifically because Little left Pedro in for too long because they didn't have faith in their bullpen. Timlin was a good setup man, but......2003 was just another in a long line of Red Sox heartbreaks that conjured up images of Bob Stanley.

Keith Foulke was an above average closer when he arrived in Boston, and he had a good 2004. However, some fans are a little too enthralled with him simply because he filled the role that was considered a weakness for so many years.

Ouch. Okay you got me there.

Bob fucking Stanley there's a name I haven't thought of in a while. Macnamara, Clemens' ( non-existent ) blister. I still remember that shit like it was yesterday, and I was like 8 years old at the time.

That said I agree with Heenan, on you can't punish the whole team because one ( I'm sure more than one ) player was juicing. They got hot at the right time, some of which who "caught fire" were clean ( presumably ).


I'm not sure how to police or punish the offenders. I don't think anyone is. I don't like the records that were broken, but how do "fix" it without just running on emotion?

[killeverything]

Still is it just because of "cheating"? Gaylord Perry admits to never abandoning the banned spitball. Yet he's still in the HOF. Niekro admits to using emery boards to scuff balls, etc.

That to me is the crux of the thing. If they won't let Mac in for cheating, then they need to kick those guys out.

That's been said for a while. Especially after the Pete Rose thing came to knowledge. Yet, no commissioner wanted to go near that one ( Giamatti, Selig ), and the Veteran's Committee would have a heart attack.

I agree that the game needs to be cleaned up, but where do you start?

Shit just google "baseball cheaters" and one's that weren't common knowledge ( Like Perry ) will pop up. There were a few of them.

[Machado]

Still is it just because of "cheating"? Gaylord Perry admits to never abandoning the banned spitball. Yet he's still in the HOF. Niekro admits to using emery boards to scuff balls, etc.

That to me is the crux of the thing. If they won't let Mac in for cheating, then they need to kick those guys out.

That's been said for a while. Especially after the Pete Rose thing came to knowledge. Yet, no commissioner wanted to go near that one ( Giamatti, Selig ), and the Veteran's Committee would have a heart attack.

I agree that the game needs to be cleaned up, but where do you start?

Shit just google "baseball cheaters" and one's that weren't common knowledge ( Like Perry ) will pop up. There were a few of them.

Not that I give 2 cents about gaylord or think he's HOF worthy, but at the very least, he has admitted to cheating.
Listen, gaylord admitting what he did or Niekro is "an old story".
It's not news today because they retired how many decades ago?

[thejuggernaut]

So the voters gave Manny the award because they felt bad for him and NOT because he was dominant all year ?

Keith Foulke pitched 5 innings. Sorry, that's not an MVP, seeing how the guys with the sticks and the guys who throw 5 or more innings per game are the ones who have to get him the lead.

It's not like he was John Wetteland in 1996.

Foulke was valuable in game 1 in the 11-9 slugfest.

Game 2 he came in with a 6-2 lead.

Game 3 he came in with a 4-0 lead after a nice game by Martinez, and proceeded to give up a homer.

Game 4 he got his first save in a 3-0 game that was as much or more to do with a great start by Lowe and playing a team that had essentially thrown in the towel.

So, by my count, he had a significant impact on 1 game, the first.

I think what we have here is some leftover Grady and Mac induced gratitude.

Everyone knows Foulke was brought in specifically because Little left Pedro in for too long because they didn't have faith in their bullpen. Timlin was a good setup man, but......2003 was just another in a long line of Red Sox heartbreaks that conjured up images of Bob Stanley.

Keith Foulke was an above average closer when he arrived in Boston, and he had a good 2004. However, some fans are a little too enthralled with him simply because he filled the role that was considered a weakness for so many years.

Ouch. Okay you got me there.

Bob fucking Stanley there's a name I haven't thought of in a while. Macnamara, Clemens' ( non-existent ) blister. I still remember that shit like it was yesterday, and I was like 8 years old at the time.

That said I agree with Heenan, on you can't punish the whole team because one ( I'm sure more than one ) player was juicing. They got hot at the right time, some of which who "caught fire" were clean ( presumably ).


I'm not sure how to police or punish the offenders. I don't think anyone is. I don't like the records that were broken, but how do "fix" it without just running on emotion?

That's the problem.

Although the HOF recognizes individuals, it's still a team feat. Lineup protection, guys getting on base etc etc.

So, by denying Ramirez, you're punishing Damon, Mueller, Nomar, Ortiz, Lowell, Youk, Pedroia etc from Boston, and Belle, Thome, Lofton, Justice, Matt Williams, Travis Fryman etc.

By denying Ramirez, you are denying all of his teammates over the years who contributed to his stats.

[Machado]

Carlton Fisk, who caught 2,226 games spanning 24 seasons for the Boston Red Sox and then the Chicago White Sox, said McGwire's insistence that steroids did not help him total 583 career home runs is "a crock."

"[McGwire] says, 'Well, it doesn't help eye-and-hand coordination.' Well, of course it does," Fisk told the Tribune for Wednesday's editions. "It allows you more acuity physically and mentally and optically. You are going to be stronger and you are going to be better.

"Some of these numbers that are out there are really warped. Should they be considered? You saw how McGwire was viewed in the Hall of Fame voting. If you take the length of time that [steroid users] use that stuff and subtract 15 or 20 home runs a year for those guys, where are their numbers then?"

As part of his admission to using steroids throughout the 1990s, McGwire said last week he believes steroids did not inflate his home run totals and that he took them to heal faster from injuries, which allowed him to remain in the lineup.

"That's a crock," Fisk told the Tribune. "There's a reason they call it performance-enhancing drugs. That's what it does -- performance enhancement. You can be good, but it's going to make you better. You can be average, but it is going to make you good. If you are below average, it is going to make you average. Some guys who went that route got their five-year, $35 million contracts and now are off into the sunset somewhere. Because once they can't use [steroids] anymore, they can't play anymore."

"Try having your knees operated on and catching for 30 years," Fisk added. "Do you think you feel good when you go out there? [McGwire] had to stand around and play first base. So excuuuuuse me."

Fisk's outrage wasn't aimed solely at McGwire. He also was critical of seven-time Cy Young winner Clemens, who has been accused of using PEDs. The former trainer of the 353-game winner has said he injected Clemens with steroids and HGH over a period of several years, a claim Clemens has vehemently denied.

"The reason he got let go from the Red Sox [after the 1996 season] was because he was starting to break down," Fisk told the Tribune. "His last couple of years in Boston just weren't very productive, a la 'The Rocket.' Then all of a sudden he goes to Toronto and he wants to show somebody something. Then he gets two consecutive Cy Young Awards [in '97 and '98]. Come on, give me a bucket.

"It's obvious to players. You notice that stuff. You know how hard it is to play the game. You know how hard it is to be productive at any age, but especially at an older age. You see guys who are as productive later on as they were early [in their careers]. It offends guys that stayed clean."

[thejuggernaut]

Carlton Fisk, who caught 2,226 games spanning 24 seasons for the Boston Red Sox and then the Chicago White Sox, said McGwire's insistence that steroids did not help him total 583 career home runs is "a crock."

"[McGwire] says, 'Well, it doesn't help eye-and-hand coordination.' Well, of course it does," Fisk told the Tribune for Wednesday's editions. "It allows you more acuity physically and mentally and optically. You are going to be stronger and you are going to be better.

"Some of these numbers that are out there are really warped. Should they be considered? You saw how McGwire was viewed in the Hall of Fame voting. If you take the length of time that [steroid users] use that stuff and subtract 15 or 20 home runs a year for those guys, where are their numbers then?"

As part of his admission to using steroids throughout the 1990s, McGwire said last week he believes steroids did not inflate his home run totals and that he took them to heal faster from injuries, which allowed him to remain in the lineup.

"That's a crock," Fisk told the Tribune. "There's a reason they call it performance-enhancing drugs. That's what it does -- performance enhancement. You can be good, but it's going to make you better. You can be average, but it is going to make you good. If you are below average, it is going to make you average. Some guys who went that route got their five-year, $35 million contracts and now are off into the sunset somewhere. Because once they can't use [steroids] anymore, they can't play anymore."

"Try having your knees operated on and catching for 30 years," Fisk added. "Do you think you feel good when you go out there? [McGwire] had to stand around and play first base. So excuuuuuse me."

Fisk's outrage wasn't aimed solely at McGwire. He also was critical of seven-time Cy Young winner Clemens, who has been accused of using PEDs. The former trainer of the 353-game winner has said he injected Clemens with steroids and HGH over a period of several years, a claim Clemens has vehemently denied.

"The reason he got let go from the Red Sox [after the 1996 season] was because he was starting to break down," Fisk told the Tribune. "His last couple of years in Boston just weren't very productive, a la 'The Rocket.' Then all of a sudden he goes to Toronto and he wants to show somebody something. Then he gets two consecutive Cy Young Awards [in '97 and '98]. Come on, give me a bucket.

"It's obvious to players. You notice that stuff. You know how hard it is to play the game. You know how hard it is to be productive at any age, but especially at an older age. You see guys who are as productive later on as they were early [in their careers]. It offends guys that stayed clean."

Poor pudge sounds a bit upset.

[bane]

Poor pudge sounds a bit upset.

He also sounds accurate.

[thejuggernaut]

Poor pudge sounds a bit upset.

He also sounds accurate.

Good for him. He's still a whiny faggot. "So excuuuuuse me" The guy is in his 60s and talking like that ?

He's just pissed he missed the money train and he sounds like nothing more than a cranky old man rambling about "kids these days"