McGwire admits steroid use

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

Juggernaut, your excuses for the juicers in baseball hold no weight. Being a whistle blower and saying you narced out your friends and/or coworkers is not an affirmative defense. The facts are this: McGwire took juice to improve his power, he violated league rules, he cheated his fellow players, and he lied about it numerous times.

And not only did he lie, he tried to cover it up. During the home run race he hid behind taking pro-hormones like Androstenedione as a smokescreen to offset his real usage of anabolic steroids and HGH. This was a pre-meditated and indignant front to cover up his steroid usage.

You don't have a leg to stand on in defending this guy.

[thejuggernaut]

Juggernaut, your excuses for the juicers in baseball hold no weight. Being a whistle blower and saying you narced out your friends and/or coworkers is not an affirmative defense. The facts are this: McGwire took juice to improve his power, he violated league rules, he cheated his fellow players, and he lied about it numerous times.

And not only did he lie, he tried to cover it up. During the home run race he hid behind taking pro-hormones like Androstenedione as a smokescreen to offset his real usage of anabolic steroids and HGH. This was a pre-meditated and indignant front to cover up his steroid usage.

You don't have a leg to stand on in defending this guy.

I don't remember saying Canseco being a rat was a defense.

Also, I am not defending McGwire; I am ridiculing the notion that media types and fans stuck in the past have a problem with baseball players IN THE ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS taking steroids while not seeming to mind football players taking steroids and musicians using illicit substances to enhance their performance.

I am sure there are more examples, but the only entity I can recall BRAGGING about taking illegal drugs is Motley Crue.

So, are YOU ready to explain why you have no problem with the NFL (if you're a fan) and why you tolerate your musicians enhancing their performances illegally ?

[JakeYonkel]

I'm really not much of a football fan but I always think it's funny how when an NFL player tests positive, it's back page news, the guy gets a little suspension, who cares. But even if 2 minor leagues get popped from the Royals' farm system it's splashed on ESPN.com's front page.

Either we care about this shit or we don't.

Do I care that they do it? Not really. Their bodies, not mine. The only problem I have with it are comparing steroid-tainted achievements/records to those that were not affected by steroids. Granted, you can make the argument that different eras used amphetamines but I highly doubt that would have had the same kind of effect as steroids.

I honestly really don't have an issue with athletes using HGH to recover from injuries. I don't know enough about the stuff to know where it begins and ends as far as taking stuff that will actually affect your playing ability.

[thejuggernaut]

I'm really not much of a football fan but I always think it's funny how when an NFL player tests positive, it's back page news, the guy gets a little suspension, who cares. But even if 2 minor leagues get popped from the Royals' farm system it's splashed on ESPN.com's front page.

Either we care about this shit or we don't.

Do I care that they do it? Not really. Their bodies, not mine. The only problem I have with it are comparing steroid-tainted achievements/records to those that were not affected by steroids. Granted, you can make the argument that different eras used amphetamines but I highly doubt that would have had the same kind of effect as steroids.

I honestly really don't have an issue with athletes using HGH to recover from injuries. I don't know enough about the stuff to know where it begins and ends as far as taking stuff that will actually affect your playing ability.

Alas, the classic record holders didn't have as much travel to contend with.

They saw the same pitchers more often due to less teams thus developed familiarity to the pitchers.

Pitchers back then used to throw complete games all the time, some on 3 days rest quite frequently, and there were no fireballing closers, setup specialists etc.

They didn't have to contend with astroturf ravaging their bodies.

And, one of my personal favorites is that those record were achieved when brown people weren't welcome, so they were doing it against the best WHITE players in ONE country.

That's not to say that should be VIP pass for steroid fueled records.

However, it does say the "hallowed records" are nothing more than a crock of shit.

I think it's absolutely hilarious that there are people screaming about the integrity of a game that has commemorated a brown person being allowed to play, even giving the racism a nice and fancy sounding name known as "The Color Barrier"

LOL

Integrity !!!

That fucking racket has NEVER EVER had one OUNCE of integrity.

[Machado]

Jose shook up the game.

If not for his book, we probably would not be having this discussion today.


Jose wanted to tell this story because he believed that MLB black-balled the kid back in 2001. Whether his motivation was payback or something else, the fact is his story was told and players like McGwire are paying the price years later.

I saw Jose on tv last night and much to my surprise, he mentioned that book #3 is in the works.
The book revolves around how his life has changed for the worst since his 1st book.

[Crazy Levi]

The buffoon with the giant purple font makes a good point.

If we are going to fuck around with the record books and deny people in the hall due to the "steroid era", shouldn't we expunge or asterik all pre-1948 records, and possibly kick all pre-Jackie Robinson players out of the hall of fame?

After all, the fact that Cy Young didn't have to pitch against many of the greatest players of his day, who were stuck in the Negro Leagues, was probably a much bigger advantage to his stats than the fact that Roger Clemens was juiced, no?

And how can you put Lou Gehrig in the hall of fame when he didn't have to hit against Satchel Paige?

It undermines the INTEGRITY of the Hall of Fame for God's sake!

[Machado]

Currently there is no record that contains an * in baseball
The last time this happened was when Maris broke the HR record
and the asterisk was removed after a couple yrs.

Records are meant to be broken. Whether by a player using PED's or a clean player.

Nobody is going to fuck with the record books.
Nobody is going to wipe out an era from the record books.

If anything, a story should directly follow the record that mentions so and so player admitted using PED's during the following years.
End of story!!

[BD888]

This thread is more interesting than the sport it's about. I have one question, how does astroturf negatively affect players health? Also, with steroid use for so many years, how come these guys are still so healthy?

[Machado]

This thread is more interesting than the sport it's about. I have one question, how does astroturf negatively affect players health? Also, with steroid use for so many years, how come these guys are still so healthy?

I have to say, astroturf lead to many, many injuries that ruined careers.
Now that no team plays on that glorified concrete surface, nobody has to worry about catching a cleat on the turf, or tripping over a seam in the turf or losing large chunks of skin when diving/sliding on the turf.

Don't kid yourself, astroturf was the worst playing surface MLB players have ever played on.

[Crazy Levi]

This thread is more interesting than the sport it's about. I have one question, how does astroturf negatively affect players health? Also, with steroid use for so many years, how come these guys are still so healthy?

The astroturf thing seems a bit of a big purple stretch to me, but in football it lead to more injuries as its much less forgving than grass, which is why they've gotten rid of it. I could see astroturf helping hitters as the ball will bounce much higher on it.

As far as the roids - well, I'd guess that just like all other drugs, they simply aren't as bad for you as "the man" wants you to think.

[bane]

So, are YOU ready to explain why you have no problem with the NFL (if you're a fan) and why you tolerate your musicians enhancing their performances illegally ?

What exactly about heroin, blow and booze has ever enhanced a musician's performance?

[bane]

Also, with steroid use for so many years, how come these guys are still so healthy?

Quite a few of them are dead. It's probably impossible to prove it was caused by steroid abuse, but it would be one hell of a coincidence. Check out the wrestling industry. How many of those dudes are dead?

[thejuggernaut]

This thread is more interesting than the sport it's about. I have one question, how does astroturf negatively affect players health? Also, with steroid use for so many years, how come these guys are still so healthy?

The astroturf thing seems a bit of a big purple stretch to me, but in football it lead to more injuries as its much less forgving than grass, which is why they've gotten rid of it. I could see astroturf helping hitters as the ball will bounce much higher on it.

Right, because unpadded outfielders have never crashed on carpeted concrete.

I'd suggest actually setting foot on and playing a game on astroturf before calling it a big purple stretch.

[thejuggernaut]

So, are YOU ready to explain why you have no problem with the NFL (if you're a fan) and why you tolerate your musicians enhancing their performances illegally ?

What exactly about heroin, blow and booze has ever enhanced a musician's performance?

You're right. During long and grueling tours in which the musicians become road weary, cocaine does not act as a stimulant to pick people up.

Also, the widely know side effect of social jitterbugging never once helped musicians with stage nerves.

That, and lots of singers have never actually taken steroids during long tours to be able to keep going.

[thejuggernaut]

Also, with steroid use for so many years, how come these guys are still so healthy?

Quite a few of them are dead. It's probably impossible to prove it was caused by steroid abuse, but it would be one hell of a coincidence. Check out the wrestling industry. How many of those dudes are dead?

How many of them weren't cocked out pill popping alcoholics ?

You're talking about guys who swallowed handfuls of pills and drugs to keep them going.

[Crazy Levi]

This thread is more interesting than the sport it's about. I have one question, how does astroturf negatively affect players health? Also, with steroid use for so many years, how come these guys are still so healthy?

The astroturf thing seems a bit of a big purple stretch to me, but in football it lead to more injuries as its much less forgving than grass, which is why they've gotten rid of it. I could see astroturf helping hitters as the ball will bounce much higher on it.

Right, because unpadded outfielders have never crashed on carpeted concrete.

I'd suggest actually setting foot on and playing a game on astroturf before calling it a big purple stretch.

Easy there big purple fella. I'm not a huge baseball fan...and I don't remember hearing much about baseball turf injuries wheras I used to hear about NFL players getting fucked up all the time. So maybe it's not a stretch I just don't remember it being as much of an issue. But now I wholeheartedly support your efforts for an "Astroturf Hall of Fame"

[thejuggernaut]

Also, I am not defending McGwire; I am ridiculing the notion that media types and fans stuck in the past have a problem with baseball players IN THE ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS taking steroids while not seeming to mind football players taking steroids and musicians using illicit substances to enhance their performance.

How many football players and musicians where caught lying about it infront of millions to see? The reason why baseball is getting hammered on this whole steroid issue compared to football is because the vast majority of players involved in the baseball scandal are/or are potential hall of famers with records. It basically casts a shadow of doubt on the records that have been set in MLB.

How many musicians and football players were called to testify about it ?

Every time NFL players thank god, their teammates, coaches and everything BUT the PEDs/PDDs they're taking, they're lying to millions of people.

You're naive if you think the NFL HOF and records books aren't full of juicers.

[bane]

I've toured, quite a bit, and I can tell you without question that I've never seen cocaine, booze and smack do anything to enhance anybody's performance. It's the absolute opposite. I've also taken steroids for my throat quite a few times, but it was always a doctor prescribed thing, and yeah, it helped, a lot. I don't have a problem with steroids by themselves.in general. They can be very beneficial to healing an injury, and as such I think pro athletes should be able to use them under a doc's care in that regard, provided it's only in that regard. The argument isn't against ocaissional use, it's against a regimen.

[thejuggernaut]

Easy there big purple fella. I'm not a huge baseball fan...and I don't remember hearing much about baseball turf injuries wheras I used to hear about NFL players getting fucked up all the time. So maybe it's not a stretch I just don't remember it being as much of an issue. But now I wholeheartedly support your efforts for an "Astroturf Hall of Fame"

The NFL turf injuries that were popular to report about were torn knee ligaments caused by the shoddy seams and not so much the hard surface. See Philly's Veteran's Stadium.

Baseball's injuries were more to do with outfielders and corner infielders diving to make a play and crashing onto carpeted concrete.

One of baseball's great careers (Ken Griffey Jr) was derailed because of a career spent on that horrible surface.

By the age of 31, Griffey was a shell of his former self.

Bonds was on a similar path. Moving to San Fran definitely helped but he did take years of abuse on turf and that was catching up to him.

Bonds did something about it and we know the results.

Griffey opted to stay "clean" and robbed himself of his rightful place in the game. As a result, baseball fans were robbed of seeing one of the best ever to play the game do it for an extended period of time.

[thejuggernaut]

I've toured, quite a bit, and I can tell you without question that I've never seen cocaine, booze and smack do anything to enhance anybody's performance. It's the absolute opposite.

Good for you. You never hit the big time either, did you? I guess it's too bad that music history is FULL of instances of bands coking up to get by. This board is made in honor of a scene known for coking it up.

I've also taken steroids for my throat quite a few times, but it was always a doctor prescribed thing, and yeah, it helped, a lot. I don't have a problem with steroids by themselves.in general. They can be very beneficial to healing an injury, and as such I think pro athletes should be able to use them under a doc's care in that regard, provided it's only in that regard. The argument isn't against ocaissional use, it's against a regimen.

Oh, so now the argument is the regimen and not baseball's "hallowed records" ?

[Bob Sacamano]

OK - does this mean he's allowed in the Hall of Fame now?

Holy fuck this whole thing is stupid.

No. Aside from the home runs, he was not that great of a baseball player.

[bane]

I've toured, quite a bit, and I can tell you without question that I've never seen cocaine, booze and smack do anything to enhance anybody's performance. It's the absolute opposite.

Good for you. You never hit the big time either, did you? I guess it's too bad that music history is FULL of instances of bands coking up to get by. This board is made in honor of a scene known for coking it up.

I've also taken steroids for my throat quite a few times, but it was always a doctor prescribed thing, and yeah, it helped, a lot. I don't have a problem with steroids by themselves.in general. They can be very beneficial to healing an injury, and as such I think pro athletes should be able to use them under a doc's care in that regard, provided it's only in that regard. The argument isn't against ocaissional use, it's against a regimen.

Oh, so now the argument is the regimen and not baseball's "hallowed records" ?

I'm not sure what making it big has to do with drug abuse, but I guess by your logic I just didn't do enough huh? Sure there are countless stories of band's getting "coked up to get by" but if you think that has anything to with enhancing performance, you don't know much about cocaine. As to the "hallowed records" thing, you haven't heard me make that argument. All I said was that Mac's being on the juice while breaking the record was an issue, because it was. It's about the scandal and the resulting attention payed to the issue, I couldn't care less about asterisks or keeping them out of the HOA. I said as much earlier in this thread.

[Crazy Levi]

OK - does this mean he's allowed in the Hall of Fame now?

Holy fuck this whole thing is stupid.

No. Aside from the home runs, he was not that great of a baseball player.

I don't care. Hitting 600 home runs should get you in the hall of fame. I guess Reggie shouldn't be in there cause he's the all time strikeout king.

[thejuggernaut]

I've toured, quite a bit, and I can tell you without question that I've never seen cocaine, booze and smack do anything to enhance anybody's performance. It's the absolute opposite.

Good for you. You never hit the big time either, did you? I guess it's too bad that music history is FULL of instances of bands coking up to get by. This board is made in honor of a scene known for coking it up.

I've also taken steroids for my throat quite a few times, but it was always a doctor prescribed thing, and yeah, it helped, a lot. I don't have a problem with steroids by themselves.in general. They can be very beneficial to healing an injury, and as such I think pro athletes should be able to use them under a doc's care in that regard, provided it's only in that regard. The argument isn't against ocaissional use, it's against a regimen.

Oh, so now the argument is the regimen and not baseball's "hallowed records" ?

I'm not sure what making it big has to do with drug abuse, but I guess by your logic I just didn't do enough huh? Sure there are countless stories of band's getting "coked up to get by" but if you think that has anything to with enhancing performance, you don't know much about cocaine. As to the "hallowed records" thing, you haven't heard me make that argument. All I said was that Mac's being on the juice while breaking the record was an issue, because it was. It's about the scandal and the resulting attention payed to the issue, I couldn't care less about asterisks or keeping them out of the HOA. I said as much earlier in this thread.

What does making it big have to do with drug abuse ?

For starters, I was talking about major recording artists.

It's really not that tough to figure out.

You know, the ones who have a label putting them on tour endlessly, doing media blitzes in between, radio station in the morning, radio station in the afternoon, show in the evening, hop on a bus and do it all over again and what not, back to the studio to cut another album and do it all over again.

When you're completely exhausted from the grind and just want to lay in bed and you blast a few lines into you and go put on a show, that's enhancing a performance.

You can do your middle of the road thing as much as you want, but it's a fact - taking a stimulant and being stimulated when you're exhausted is having your performance enhanced.

The whole point of a stimulant is for a "pick me up" It's why coffee is popular, why energy drinks sell by the boatload.

Now, I want you to tell this entire board that if someone is tired and groggy and they blast some lines into them, they aren't going to notice any change whatsoever.

[bane]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Dude, I like you, you're usually a pretty informed guy, but that's just fucking retarded. Have you ever toured the midwest in a van while you do your own driving, your own load ins and load outs, slept in same said van before you drive another 400 miles to the next gig and do it all over again? Try doing that for 6 weeks straight and come back to me with your "major artists with major pressures" bullshit. If you're trying to convince me that touring is a grind, there's no need, I know it's a grind. I also know that you have some very confused perceptions about what cocaine actually does. It's not coffee dude.

[thejuggernaut]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Dude, I like you, you're usually a pretty informed guy, but that's just fucking retarded. Have you ever toured the midwest in a van while you do your own driving, your own load ins and load outs, slept in same said van before you drive another 400 miles to the next gig and do it all over again? Try doing that for 6 weeks straight and come back to me with your "major artists with major pressures" bullshit. If you're trying to convince me that touring is a grind, there's no need, I know it's a grind. I also know that you have some very confused perceptions about what cocaine actually does. It's not coffee dude.

Have you ever gone on a 2 year world tour and had to do media blitzes in between shows.

Yes or no ?

[thejuggernaut]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Dude, I like you, you're usually a pretty informed guy, but that's just fucking retarded. Have you ever toured the midwest in a van while you do your own driving, your own load ins and load outs, slept in same said van before you drive another 400 miles to the next gig and do it all over again? Try doing that for 6 weeks straight and come back to me with your "major artists with major pressures" bullshit. If you're trying to convince me that touring is a grind, there's no need, I know it's a grind. I also know that you have some very confused perceptions about what cocaine actually does. It's not coffee dude.

So your official stance is that if someone is tired and lethargic and they blast a line or two, they will experience ZERO increase in their energy levels, in spite of an elevated heart rate ?

[bane]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Dude, I like you, you're usually a pretty informed guy, but that's just fucking retarded. Have you ever toured the midwest in a van while you do your own driving, your own load ins and load outs, slept in same said van before you drive another 400 miles to the next gig and do it all over again? Try doing that for 6 weeks straight and come back to me with your "major artists with major pressures" bullshit. If you're trying to convince me that touring is a grind, there's no need, I know it's a grind. I also know that you have some very confused perceptions about what cocaine actually does. It's not coffee dude.

So your official stance is that if someone is tired and lethargic and they blast a line or two, they will experience ZERO increase in their energy levels, in spite of an elevated heart rate ?

Nope. I never said that. In addition to a whole boatload of other issues, it also constricts your blood vessles causing a shitload of problems for singers in particular, and the real problem is, nobody just "blasts a line or two". That's not how that shit works.

[thejuggernaut]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Dude, I like you, you're usually a pretty informed guy, but that's just fucking retarded. Have you ever toured the midwest in a van while you do your own driving, your own load ins and load outs, slept in same said van before you drive another 400 miles to the next gig and do it all over again? Try doing that for 6 weeks straight and come back to me with your "major artists with major pressures" bullshit. If you're trying to convince me that touring is a grind, there's no need, I know it's a grind. I also know that you have some very confused perceptions about what cocaine actually does. It's not coffee dude.

So your official stance is that if someone is tired and lethargic and they blast a line or two, they will experience ZERO increase in their energy levels, in spite of an elevated heart rate ?

Nope. I never said that. In addition to a whole boatload of other issues, it also constricts your blood vessles causing a shitload of problems for singers in particular, and the real problem is, nobody just "blasts a line or two". That's not how that shit works.

Ok, so you are acknowledging it's a stimulant.

Prolonged use/abuse wasn't the topic. The topic was if cocaine creates any increase in energy. It does, thus it's performance enhancing.

I don't give two flying fucks about what happens with abuse; that's not the point and over consumption of anything has negative aspects, even water.

So, if a musician is tired and lethargic and blast some lines, he experiences a pickup to get on with the show. Thus, performance enhancement. Thus, he did not carry out his vocation naturally.

[JakeYonkel]

Yeah, but there aren't statistical records that drug-induced musicians are competing for to break. So their drug usage, even if it's a performance-enhancer, hurts nobody else or any sort of perceived 'integrity.'