Dougas vs Mike Tyson 20 yrs ago, ESPN.COM

[Machado]

By Jeremy Schaap
Special to ESPN.com

Throughout history, man has struggled to make sense of the world around him, to explain phenomena that are beyond his capacity for understanding. Full eclipses, Halley's comet, plagues, droughts, floods -- you name it -- inspired legends and myths that, at their root, reduced the unfathomable to man's level.

Such has been the case with Buster Douglas' epic victory against Mike Tyson since the fighters met in the ring Feb. 11, 1990, in Tokyo. To account for an upset of that magnitude -- the sports equivalent of an act of God -- a catalogue of myths was created, nurtured and popularized. But now, 20 years after Tyson was counted out, the public needs to be disabused of its misimpressions. The myths must be dispelled.

Myth No. 1: Douglas was a no-talent bum

On the contrary, James "Buster" Douglas was a fighter of immense natural ability who had been undermined throughout his career only by a chronic lack of dedication. His ample gifts included great size (his hands are enormous), a devastating jab, quickness and power. He defeated four men who were heavyweight champions at some point in their careers: Mike Tyson, Trevor Berbick, Oliver McCall and Greg Page.

Fighting Tony Tucker, who at the time was 34-0, for the vacant IBF heavyweight title in 1987, Douglas was winning the fight through nine rounds before Tucker knocked him out in the 10th. In Tucker's next fight, he went the distance in losing to Tyson.

Myth No. 2: Tyson was out of shape

At the time, some experts thought Tyson had trained not too lightly but too hard. Watch the fight. Tyson's muscles are bulging, and there is no fat anywhere on his frame. He weighed in at 220½ pounds -- just 1¼ pounds more than he had weighed seven months earlier when he knocked out Carl Williams in 93 seconds and only two pounds more than he had weighed 20 months earlier when he had knocked out Michael Spinks in 91 seconds. If Tyson had been in poor shape, he could not have lasted 10 rounds against an opponent who was pummeling him. Mentally, there's no question Tyson was unprepared; it was inconceivable to him that Douglas might win. But that's a different issue, and a champion must always expect an inspired challenger.

Myth No. 3: Douglas got lucky

Luck had nothing to do with Douglas' victory. Sometimes a fighter wins a championship with one random punch (see: Oliver McCall versus Lennox Lewis). But Douglas dominated Tyson. He was better offensively and defensively. He threw and landed more punches. His punches packed more wallop. He battered Tyson with his jab. His height and reach advantage kept Tyson frustrated. Tyson didn't land a punch that hurt Douglas until he knocked him down in the eighth round. Douglas also executed a brilliant plan to perfection. From the opening bell, he refused to allow Tyson to intimidate him. He bullied the bully. Strategically, tactically and physically, Douglas outperformed Tyson.


Myth No. 4: Tyson knocked out Douglas first

When Douglas got knocked down at the end of the eighth round, he appeared to be clearheadedly following the referee's count. The count was about two seconds behind the timekeeper's, but that's not very unusual, and Tyson was late retreating to a neutral corner. The fighter's sole responsibility is to beat the referee's count -- which Douglas did with ease, deliberately. When the WBA and WBC -- mostly at the behest of Don King -- attempted to deny Douglas his victory because of the count, public outcry forced them to back down.

Myth No. 5: Evander Holyfield proved Douglas' victory against Tyson was a fluke by knocking him out in three rounds

Holyfield's victory proved only that Douglas had reverted to his former, undisciplined self. If Douglas had trained as diligently to fight Holyfield as he had trained to fight Tyson, he might have won. Instead, after Steve Wynn paid him more than $20 million to fight Holyfield, Douglas stopped caring.

He weighed 15 pounds more against Holyfield than he had against Tyson. In the months leading up to the bout, he spent more time boozing, partying and eating than working out. He turned against the manager and trainers who had helped make his victory against Tyson possible, disempowering them. He had no choice, but he also spent too much time in courtrooms fighting King. Douglas' win in Tokyo was a fluke only in the sense that it was the first and last time he performed up to his ability.

ESPN anchor and national correspondent Jeremy Schaap is a host of "Outside The Lines" and "SportsCentury."

[Tymaster]

Buster is pretty much fatter and lazier than ever these days. A buddy of mine trained at Johnsons gym. One time while we were in college, ESPN2 was gonna do "Friday Night Fights" at the Schottenstein Center in Columbus. My buddy (college partner in crime basically) was really kicking it into high gear in local tough man contests etc. Johnson gave us seats at his table for the fight night! I was pumped, this was about 12 years ago, when boxing still had some dignity. One of the coolest things was that a former champ would be seated with us!!!! About midway through the night's card, here comes Buster. Fatter than all get out, in unmatching sweat pants/shirt. He seats himself, was kind and humble. Signed stuff, and took pictures. Also proceeded to eat the entire tables worth of wings and ribs, and pound a few pitcher of beer. Then he left. He wasn't a prick or anything. If anything, he was a sad figure. I don't think he liked the celebrity aspect. Everyone in the building was chanting his name, but since he wasn't "on the card, I'm not getting in the ring and saying nothing" was what he told the table. He attempted another come back after that night, but I think Buster is done for good.
That night changed the life of BOTH fighters. Neither would be champion again.
I still remember watching that fight rather well. No one in Ohio believed Buster could do it, but we all watched with our fingers crossed. I still have the picture of my friend Bill, me, and Buster framed in my office at work.

[Crazy Levi]

Nothing here is new.

The only thing I'd add as a footnote, is that Tyson was famously knocked down, on video, by sparring partner Greg Page while training for this fight. It was the first sign that Tyson was losing it, but nobody could have imagined the Douglas fight at that time.

Douglas really kicked his ass, except for that one uppercut that Tyson caught him with in the 8th round.

I remember the commentators saying "Here we are, 90 seconds into this fight, and yet Tyson has done no real damage!"

That's how invincible Tyson seemed at the time.

[Tymaster]

It was one thing to be a boxing fan and see the "biggest upset of all time" as they coined it. It was quite another having the underdog score be from your hometown! Everyone in Central Ohio has a story about that night. Most of us tuned in just hoping Tyson didn't kill him! Buster debunked the Tyson myth and altered the course of boxing history.

[Machado]

Nothing here is new.

The only thing I'd add as a footnote, is that Tyson was famously knocked down, on video, by sparring partner Greg Page while training for this fight. It was the first sign that Tyson was losing it, but nobody could have imagined the Douglas fight at that time.

Douglas really kicked his ass, except for that one uppercut that Tyson caught him with in the 8th round.

I remember the commentators saying "Here we are, 90 seconds into this fight, and yet Tyson has done no real damage!"

That's how invincible Tyson seemed at the time.

I remember watching the fight. When Buster went down, I thought, "well that was fun while it lasted". I never could have imagined that Buster would get up from that vicious uppercut, but actually go ahead and knock Tyson out.
Tyson was not right in the head for this fight.
He was in great shape.
It was all mental.
Tyson did not prepare and ended up looking for his mouthpiece on the apron,

[Tymaster]

Threw the final Douglas punch on my facebook wall after this thread. Unreal number of responses. EVERYONE in this part of Ohio has a story about that night. I was young, but I remember my brother-in-law worked in Columbus for a guy that was a business partner with John Johnson, so he had a BUNCH of people over that night. My sister and I are still trying to figure out who all watched that fight at the Tatman ranch two decades ago.........

[Monty610]

It was one thing to be a boxing fan and see the "biggest upset of all time" as they coined it. It was quite another having the underdog score be from your hometown! Everyone in Central Ohio has a story about that night. Most of us tuned in just hoping Tyson didn't kill him! Buster debunked the Tyson myth and altered the course of boxing history.

Totally this. I won't even go into my story, it's boring. But I remember the night vividly. It was the first Tyson fight I actually watched on PPV and I wouldn't end up seeing another until Tyson/Holyfield 1 and he lost that one as well.

And talk about out of shape, he sounded real winded on the radio yesterday, just from walking into a building. I don't know what he was doing before then, but he came off as very out of shape. I haven't personally seen him around town in a long time...

[UtahRatt]

Talk about creating an article out of nothing, there's a lot of if's, and's & but's going on.

Everyone who watched the fight knows all that shit.

Dougas had the eye of the tiger while Tyson underestimated his opponent and got bustered the fuck up for doing so.

[Cyber Spirit]

Talk about creating an article out of nothing, there's a lot of if's, and's & but's going on.

Everyone who watched the fight knows all that shit.

Dougas had the eye of the tiger while Tyson underestimated his opponent and got bustered the fuck up for doing so.

Agreed,what i saw was a talented taller opponent
fight the perfect fight against Tyson.

Tyson might of had an off day,but Douglas technically
fought perfectly,apart from swallowing that uppercut.

[thejuggernaut]

Buster Douglas is one of the most naturally gifted heavyweights of all time. His main problem, obviously, was dedication and focus.

A focused Douglas beats a "in his prime" Tyson every time. And by "in his prime" I man when he was "knocking out" stiffs, washed up names and default top ranked guys. Tyson might be the most overrated heavyweight in the history of the sport.

[Crazy Levi]

It was one thing to be a boxing fan and see the "biggest upset of all time" as they coined it. It was quite another having the underdog score be from your hometown! Everyone in Central Ohio has a story about that night. Most of us tuned in just hoping Tyson didn't kill him! Buster debunked the Tyson myth and altered the course of boxing history.

Totally this. I won't even go into my story, it's boring. But I remember the night vividly. It was the first Tyson fight I actually watched on PPV and I wouldn't end up seeing another until Tyson/Holyfield 1 and he lost that one as well.

And talk about out of shape, he sounded real winded on the radio yesterday, just from walking into a building. I don't know what he was doing before then, but he came off as very out of shape. I haven't personally seen him around town in a long time...

The Douglas-Tyson fight wasn't PPV - it was on HBO.

[Cyber Spirit]

Buster Douglas is one of the most naturally gifted heavyweights of all time. His main problem, obviously, was dedication and focus.

A focused Douglas beats a "in his prime" Tyson every time. And by "in his prime" I man when he was "knocking out" stiffs, washed up names and default top ranked guys. Tyson might be the most overrated heavyweight in the history of the sport.

There might be some truth in that,but not too much.
At his best Tysons' speed and accuracy of punch would of troubled
any heavyweight in the history of the sport.

[Crazy Levi]

Buster Douglas is one of the most naturally gifted heavyweights of all time. His main problem, obviously, was dedication and focus.

A focused Douglas beats a "in his prime" Tyson every time. And by "in his prime" I man when he was "knocking out" stiffs, washed up names and default top ranked guys. Tyson might be the most overrated heavyweight in the history of the sport.

There might be some truth in that,but not too much.
At his best Tysons' speed and accuracy of punch would of troubled
any heavyweight in the history of the sport.

I agree with this. It's ridiculous to suggest that Buster would have beaten Mike Tyson in 1987. He was extremely quick and his movement was amazing. It was when he lost his training, his trainers, and his authority figures that he began shedding his skills so that only his punch remained.

He beat "stiffs" because that's the only people who were out there - It's amusing that Juggs sings the praises of Buster who was beating exactly the same gang, except of course when he lost to bums like Tony Tucker.

Tyson was also able to beat Razor Rudduck, twice, who was one of the better fighters. And he did this after he'd started to suck.

I don't think you can call Tyson overrated. He beat EVERYBODY that the division had to offer for 4 years and he started an inevitable decline, hastened by his horrible choices in association. In his prime, with his original trainers and discipline, he would have given all the greats a good fight.

But we'll never know, so all we have now is giant purple arguments.

[thejuggernaut]

Buster Douglas is one of the most naturally gifted heavyweights of all time. His main problem, obviously, was dedication and focus.

A focused Douglas beats a "in his prime" Tyson every time. And by "in his prime" I man when he was "knocking out" stiffs, washed up names and default top ranked guys. Tyson might be the most overrated heavyweight in the history of the sport.

There might be some truth in that,but not too much.
At his best Tysons' speed and accuracy of punch would of troubled
any heavyweight in the history of the sport.

I agree with this. It's ridiculous to suggest that Buster would have beaten Mike Tyson in 1987. He was extremely quick and his movement was amazing. It was when he lost his training, his trainers, and his authority figures that he began shedding his skills so that only his punch remained.

He beat "stiffs" because that's the only people who were out there - It's amusing that Juggs sings the praises of Buster who was beating exactly the same gang, except of course when he lost to bums like Tony Tucker.

Tyson was also able to beat Razor Rudduck, twice, who was one of the better fighters. And he did this after he'd started to suck.

I don't think you can call Tyson overrated. He beat EVERYBODY that the division had to offer for 4 years and he started an inevitable decline, hastened by his horrible choices in association. In his prime, with his original trainers and discipline, he would have given all the greats a good fight.

But we'll never know, so all we have now is giant purple arguments.

Yeah, because Tyson's speed and bobbing and weaving really devastated Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker in 1987.

LOL

It's easy to look good when your opponent is either afraid or paid off.

Again, Douglas' physical talent was off the charts; his problem was his attitude.

There were two types of fighters who did well against Tyson;

1. The people who weren't afraid of him but didn't want to take many chances.

2. The people who were not afraid and were willing to take chances.

Oh, and Razor Ruddock ? LOL. Yeah, ok then. His ridiculously telegraphed hybrid left "smash" happened to connect against Michael Dokes and all of a sudden he was some huge super fighter because the crooks needed someone to sell. He was chosen by default. The guy fell in love with his "smash" and was a one dimensional joke. Some may remember Ruddock's corner pleading with him, round after round, to actually use the jab instead of just looking for the "smash"

We saw how good Ruddock really was when he got in against someone with actual talent like Lennox Lewis.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

Yeah, because Tyson's speed and bobbing and weaving really devastated Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker in 1987.

LOL

C'mon bud. Poo Pooing Tyson for not knocking out a guy in one or two rounds is not exactly the insult of the year. If the only criticism you can give a guy that went undefeated for 5 years is that he won a few fights by unanimous decision, that ought to give you an answer on who you are dealing with.

It's easy to look good when your opponent is either afraid or paid off.[/color][/size]

LOL making the other fighter afraid is a good thing in boxing. Honestly, I have never seen or heard anybody in my life say, "Yeah Tyson was really overrated because everybody he fought was scared of him,"

And the paid off thing is really reaching for straws.

Again, Douglas' physical talent was off the charts; his problem was his attitude.

Completely subjective excuse. Here's another one. If Cus D'Amato would have lived and kept Tyson in line, Mike would have retired undefeated in 1995.

There were two types of fighters who did well against Tyson;

2. The people who were not afraid and were willing to take chances.

Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick weren't afraid of Tyson at all. They took a chance and got punished for it, severely.

Oh, and Razor Ruddock ?
.

Ruddock was washed up when he fought Lennox Lewis so that was no feat. It then took Lennox Lewis 12 rounds to win by decision against our old friend Tony Tucker the very next bout.

[Crazy Levi]

I agree with the preceding post.

The guy beat EVERYONE they put in front of him for 5 years, and after only a couple fights he was already fighting seasoned vets (not complete tomoato cans).

the "paid off" allegation is ridiculous though I'm sure juggs will go on for 4000 words about why it isn't.

And going 10 rounds with "boneclutcher" smith? Yeah, wow, that shows how much Tyson sucked. Boneclutcher grabbed onto Tyson for 10 rounds, so it was kinda hard for Mike to land many punches.

Juggs thinks he's the only one with a memory.

[BD888]

I believe at the time of the Douglas fight, Tyson hadn't trained for the two weeks coming into fight as Robin Givens had just announced that she wanted a divorce. That has to play on the mind a bit.

[thejuggernaut]

I agree with the preceding post.

The guy beat EVERYONE they put in front of him for 5 years, and after only a couple fights he was already fighting seasoned vets (not complete tomoato cans).

the "paid off" allegation is ridiculous though I'm sure juggs will go on for 4000 words about why it isn't.

And going 10 rounds with "boneclutcher" smith? Yeah, wow, that shows how much Tyson sucked. Boneclutcher grabbed onto Tyson for 10 rounds, so it was kinda hard for Mike to land many punches.

Juggs thinks he's the only one with a memory.

Yeah, we know boxing isn't fixed at all, right Mr Super Fighter ?

LOL

The WWE is fake, you know.

Oh, and a double LOL at "boneclutcher". Yeah, because part of Tyson's game wasn't specifically to lunge in (head right behind the fist, btw), end up in a clutch, use his forearm against the opponent's throat to constrict his air, toss a few elbows, then hit on the break.

[thejuggernaut]

Yeah, because Tyson's speed and bobbing and weaving really devastated Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker in 1987.

LOL

C'mon bud. Poo Pooing Tyson for not knocking out a guy in one or two rounds is not exactly the insult of the year. If the only criticism you can give a guy that went undefeated for 5 years is that he won a few fights by unanimous decision, that ought to give you an answer on who you are dealing with.

It's easy to look good when your opponent is either afraid or paid off.[/color][/size]

LOL making the other fighter afraid is a good thing in boxing. Honestly, I have never seen or heard anybody in my life say, "Yeah Tyson was really overrated because everybody he fought was scared of him,"

And the paid off thing is really reaching for straws.

Again, Douglas' physical talent was off the charts; his problem was his attitude.

Completely subjective excuse. Here's another one. If Cus D'Amato would have lived and kept Tyson in line, Mike would have retired undefeated in 1995.

There were two types of fighters who did well against Tyson;

2. The people who were not afraid and were willing to take chances.

Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick weren't afraid of Tyson at all. They took a chance and got punished for it, severely.

Oh, and Razor Ruddock ?
.

Ruddock was washed up when he fought Lennox Lewis so that was no feat. It then took Lennox Lewis 12 rounds to win by decision against our old friend Tony Tucker the very next bout.

1. I wasn't criticizing him for not knocking them out. It was more towards what happened when people weren't afraid of him.

2. Of course making your opponent afraid is good in a physical confrontation. Except, we're talking about people who were supposed to be pro fighters in name only and a lot of them didn't want the fight but took it because of the payday. The people who weren't afraid did well. So well, King started protecting Tyson from them.

3. It's good to see there's another one who thinks boxing apparently is legit and without payoffs.

4. It's not a subjective excuse. We actually saw Douglas motivated, and not caring. We didn't get to see Cus D'Amato live. And btw, measuring someone's skill is absolutely quantifiable.

5. More cherry picking. Those would be the guys classified as washed up names and default top guys.

6. Ruddock washed up ? Oh, why because "the grueling fights with Tyson took everything out of him" ? LOL. It wasn't just because a one dimensional overrated hack got exposed for the trash can he was ? So Ruddock was washed up but apparently guys like Holmes and Berbick were spring chickens with hunger.

7. Lennox Lewis is another one with a bad habit of lazy. Regarding Tony Tucker, yeah, Tucker was an ok fighter who was ballsy. It worked against Tyson and it worked against Lewis. That's the point.

[thejuggernaut]

I believe at the time of the Douglas fight, Tyson hadn't trained for the two weeks coming into fight as Robin Givens had just announced that she wanted a divorce. That has to play on the mind a bit.

Do you buy everything a PR machine sells you ?

Hey, Marilyn Manson removed hi lower ribs so he'd be able to blow himself.

Hey, Gene Simmons had his lingual frenulum so his tongue would be longer.

Hey, Nikki Sixx.......

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

1. I wasn't criticizing him for not knocking them out. It was more towards what happened when people weren't afraid of him.

Complete conjecture on your part. So by your definition, anybody that went the distance with Tyson and didn't get KO'ed means that they weren't afraid of him. That's ridiculous.

2. Of course making your opponent afraid is good in a physical confrontation. Except, we're talking about people who were supposed to be pro fighters in name only and a lot of them didn't want the fight but took it because of the payday. The people who weren't afraid did well. So well, King started protecting Tyson from them.

Like who? What person from 1987-1990 was denied a title shot with Tyson? The answer is no one. Tyson fought every heavyweight contender that was out there. And how did the people that supposedly "weren't afraid" do so well? Are you telling me that losing by unanimous decision means that you did well? How come all those brave men weren't able to knock Tyson down even once. Tyson never hit the canvas until Buster Douglas.

3. It's good to see there's another one who thinks boxing apparently is legit and without payoffs.

Of course boxing is dirty, but there has never been any evidence or even rumors that any of Tyson's pre jail-time fights were fixed. That is complete speculation on your part.

4. It's not a subjective excuse. We actually saw Douglas motivated, and not caring. We didn't get to see Cus D'Amato live. And btw, measuring someone's skill is absolutely quantifiable.

It's your opinion that Douglas was unmotivated. More suppositions. Are you saying that the only reasons that Buster Douglas lost six fights is because he was unmotivated? That's like saying Graig Nettles never won the batting title because he just didn't feel like it. Ridiculous.

5. More cherry picking. Those would be the guys classified as washed up names and default top guys.

Okay, then tell us all the contenders and real fighters that Tyson should have fought but didn't.

Take your time.

6. Ruddock washed up ? Oh, why because "the grueling fights with Tyson took everything out of him" ? LOL. It wasn't just because a one dimensional overrated hack got exposed for the trash can he was ? So Ruddock was washed up but apparently guys like Holmes and Berbick were spring chickens with hunger.

Nobody in the boxing world shares your view of Ruddock's ability. He was a top contender for years and was always praised by the boxing press. He is rated No 70 in Ring Magazine's 100 Greatest Punchers Why do you think that Bowe and Holyfield ducked him and fought lower rated contenders?
His shellacking by Lewis was because he hadn't trained for the fight and tried to back out, which is well documented. Even he knew he was washed up after the fight which is why he retired the first time.

7. Lennox Lewis is another one with a bad habit of lazy. Regarding Tony Tucker, yeah, Tucker was an ok fighter who was ballsy. It worked against Tyson and it worked against Lewis. That's the point.

Yeah and it also worked on your boy Douglas in 87 when he got TKO'ed by Tucker. But I guess Douglas was just lazy that day, huh.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

repost

[thejuggernaut]

1. I wasn't criticizing him for not knocking them out. It was more towards what happened when people weren't afraid of him.

Complete conjecture on your part. So by your definition, anybody that went the distance with Tyson and didn't get KO'ed means that they weren't afraid of him. That's ridiculous.

2. Of course making your opponent afraid is good in a physical confrontation. Except, we're talking about people who were supposed to be pro fighters in name only and a lot of them didn't want the fight but took it because of the payday. The people who weren't afraid did well. So well, King started protecting Tyson from them.

Like who? What person from 1987-1990 was denied a title shot with Tyson? The answer is no one. Tyson fought every heavyweight contender that was out there. And how did the people that supposedly "weren't afraid" do so well? Are you telling me that losing by unanimous decision means that you did well? How come all those brave men weren't able to knock Tyson down even once. Tyson never hit the canvas until Buster Douglas.

3. It's good to see there's another one who thinks boxing apparently is legit and without payoffs.

Of course boxing is dirty, but there has never been any evidence or even rumors that any of Tyson's pre jail-time fights were fixed. That is complete speculation on your part.

4. It's not a subjective excuse. We actually saw Douglas motivated, and not caring. We didn't get to see Cus D'Amato live. And btw, measuring someone's skill is absolutely quantifiable.

It's your opinion that Douglas was unmotivated. More suppositions. Are you saying that the only reasons that Buster Douglas lost six fights is because he was unmotivated? That's like saying Graig Nettles never won the batting title because he just didn't feel like it. Ridiculous.

5. More cherry picking. Those would be the guys classified as washed up names and default top guys.

Okay, then tell us all the contenders and real fighters that Tyson should have fought but didn't.

Take your time.

6. Ruddock washed up ? Oh, why because "the grueling fights with Tyson took everything out of him" ? LOL. It wasn't just because a one dimensional overrated hack got exposed for the trash can he was ? So Ruddock was washed up but apparently guys like Holmes and Berbick were spring chickens with hunger.

Nobody in the boxing world shares your view of Ruddock's ability. He was a top contender for years and was always praised by the boxing press. He is rated No 70 in Ring Magazine's 100 Greatest Punchers Why do you think that Bowe and Holyfield ducked him and fought lower rated contenders?
His shellacking by Lewis was because he hadn't trained for the fight and tried to back out, which is well documented. Even he knew he was washed up after the fight which is why he retired the first time.

7. Lennox Lewis is another one with a bad habit of lazy. Regarding Tony Tucker, yeah, Tucker was an ok fighter who was ballsy. It worked against Tyson and it worked against Lewis. That's the point.

Yeah and it also worked on your boy Douglas in 87 when he got TKO'ed by Tucker. But I guess Douglas was just lazy that day, huh.

I was going to post a long winded reply but, as I was typing it, I realized this post of yours is as comically retarded as you claiming endurance is not needed for baseball thus winstrol was not likely.

LOL.

Come on buttnoid, please share more of your expertise in fitness with us !!!!!!!!!!!!

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

I was going to post a long winded reply but

That's probably the smartest thing you ever did. I was anxiously waiting to see you post all the real fighters that Tyson should have fought and all of your documentation regarding all the fighters that were paid off.

As far as baseball and steroids go, I think McGuire should retain you on his PR machine. Maybe you can help him with his "everybody else was doing it, why can't I?" defense and explain to us how there is no scientific link between steroid use and enhanced baseball performance.

[thejuggernaut]

That's probably the smartest thing you ever did. I was anxiously waiting to see you post all the real fighters that Tyson should have fought and all of your documentation regarding all the fighters that were paid off.

The first one that comes to mind is Holyfield being the #1 contender for TWO YEARS and offering a $25 million winner take all fight.

So there are no fixes in boxing unless it is documented. OK. And the WWE is real. ALL fights, especially those involving Don King's fighters, are on the up and up. Every fight is legit. There was nothing crooked about JCC vs Sweet Pea. Nothing crooked about Holyfield vs Lewis 1.

As far as baseball and steroids go, I think McGuire should retain you on his PR machine. Maybe you can help him with his "everybody else was doing it, why can't I?" defense and explain to us how there is no scientific link between steroid use and enhanced baseball performance.

I don't remember saying there is no link. I do remember you, in one of the greatest displays of ignorance mankind has seen, saying baseball players don't need endurance. Yeah, ok. A pitcher NEVER tires. Baseball players NEVER wear down over the season. Ever. Baseball's reference of the "dog days of summer" is used because.....the players start eating Alpo and sniffing each others' asses.

So, are you going to explain why baseball players don't need endurance ? I would LOVE to read that one.

[MickeyG]

One thing we can all agree on, Heavyweight boxing was on the slide by the mid Nineties and has gotten worse since.

Although people will talk about the Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Norton era of boxing as the best, and in heavyweights it probably was, my alltime favourite era was the 80's with Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Leonard.

And by best I mean for overall entertainment, skills, fights, personalities and for arguing with friends reasons.

[thejuggernaut]

One thing we can all agree on, Heavyweight boxing was on the slide by the mid Nineties and has gotten worse since.

Although people will talk about the Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Norton era of boxing as the best, and in heavyweights it probably was, my alltime favourite era was the 80's with Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Leonard.

And by best I mean for overall entertainment, skills, fights, personalities and for arguing with friends reasons.

The heavyweight division has been a joke since the Holmes era.

Holmes was effective, but painfully boring. Tyson added some excitement, manufactured as it was, and that made it enjoyable.

But, it has been bad for a LONG time.

There are far too many other options for big guys out there that don't involve spending 20-30 years getting their heads pummeled. By and large, the heavyweights coming out of America now are the guys who became boxers because basketball, football and baseball weren't on the table.

[MickeyG]

Yep, I just remember still having some interest with Holyfield, Bowe, Ruddock, Lewis on the scene with Tyson, but then it got boring as fuck. There needs to be some shit talking and showmanship to go along with the fights to make it interesting.

[thejuggernaut]

Yep, I just remember still having some interest with Holyfield, Bowe, Ruddock, Lewis on the scene with Tyson, but then it got boring as fuck. There needs to be some shit talking and showmanship to go along with the fights to make it interesting.

Bowe was another manufactured champion. Horrible.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

The first one that comes to mind is Holyfield being the #1 contender for TWO YEARS and offering a $25 million winner take all fight.

Wrong again. Holyfield did not become the #1 Contender until July of 89 when he beat Adilson Rodrigues. Tyson even dropped his proposed 89 fight with Ruddock in order to fight Holyfield, but Holyfield ended up taking the fight with Alex Stewart. Then Tyson took the fight against Douglas and lost.

Holyfield was not the #1 Contender for two years. More made up bullshit from you.

So there are no fixes in boxing unless it is documented. OK.

LMFAO, if you make the claim that some or all of Tyson's opponents were paid to fall down, you're damn right you have to provide proof.

Are you kidding?

And the WWE is real.

Nice straw man

ALL fights, especially those involving Don King's fighters, are on the up and up. Every fight is legit. There was nothing crooked about JCC vs Sweet Pea. Nothing crooked about Holyfield vs Lewis 1.

You are just babbling now, Pumpkin Tits. We aren't talking about Holyfield and Lewis. We are talking about Tyson. You said some of the people he fought were paid off. Who?

And while you are working on that you still haven't posted the real contenders that were supposed to fight Tyson but he ducked. Your two year #1 contender Holyfield bullshit notwithstanding.