Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
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Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
We Know From Hard Evidence Dinosaurs Existed 66 Million Years Ago Yet We Have No Objective Evidence Jesus Existed Just 2 Thousands Years Ago
A. We have no firsthand testimony from anyone who knew Jesus or wrote anything about him during his life time. (All the Gospels are late and anonymous). No person living in Roman Palestine neither saw, knew of, nor heard of either Jesus or his followers.
B. We have nothing written by Jesus himself. Ironically, Jesus is portrayed as highly educated speaking Hebrew (Luke 4: 16 – 20), Aramaic (Matt. 27: 46), Greek (Matt. 16: 6) and Latin (Matt. 8: 5 -13), yet he remained unable to write anything. (The story of Jesus writing in the sand in John 8: 2 – 11 is textually late and begs the question as to why Jesus wrote nothing. This could be because the author(s) of these forged accounts didn’t know either Hebrew or Aramaic.) (1) Even Jesus’ contemporary, the itinerant miracle working Apollonius of Tyana had works ascribed to him. (2) In short, the lack of Jesus having left anything in writing could be due to the fact that the forgers of the Gospel traditions viewed their detailed verbatim creations as totally sufficient.
C. The Jesus of the Gospels cannot be separated from the context of myth and theology. Jesus will (and must) remain an integrated part of myth and faith joined at the head just as Siamese twins who share vital organs are joined. To remove some type of reconstructed “Historical Jesus” from his world of faith and myth will only destroy both.
D. The Gospels don’t tell us where they were composed. However, the fact they were composed in Greek and not a Semitic language which was native to Roman Palestine (such as Aramaic or Hebrew) points to their composition outside of Palestine. (See point, H)
E. While Roman Palestine is center-stage for the Gospels events, there has never been found any early manuscript of any Gospels or section of any Gospel or wall graffiti to validate Jesus ever lived in the entire country from Galilee to Jerusalem. In short, when scholars look to first century Roman Palestine for any evidence for the Gospel Jesus, they find totally nothing!
F. The early (65 -90 CE) traditional dates for the Gospels or purely based on conjecture and faith.
G. Philo (the only contemporary source during Jesus life time) doesn’t mention Jesus although Philo was acutely interested in the Jerusalem Temple and anything that happened there. A Jesus who fought with the Temple Priest and Jewish leaders in Jerusalem would have mostly likely caught Philo's attention.
H. Josephus’s account of Jesus (as well as his account of James and John the Baptist) is little more than Greek stories which tell us no more than what is stated in the Gospels composed outside of first century Palestine. These Gospels accounts were composed in Hellenistic Greek most likely in Asia Minor or somewhere around Alexander Egypt. (3) So far facts point to the case that early papyri such has P52, P45, P46, P47, P66, P72, and P75 (all found disposed of in Egypt) were likely also composed in Egypt. If this fact is correct, the statements by Josephus used to support a Historical Jesus have totally nothing to do with Roman Palestine, but Christian Egypt. This can be supported by the fact that most all quotations cited by the Old Testament are taken from the LXX ; a text which, like Jesus, never uses God’s personal name (Yahweh / Jehovah), but Theos. This very likely gives us a hint of the Gnostic theological beliefs of the composers as well as a location somewhere in Egypt for the creation of the Gospels traditions. (4)
I. I have discussed Josephus’s often wild and unreliable fabrications dealing with the Bible stated as history HERE Regardless, Josephus NEVER said he had any firsthand knowledge of these three Gospel events nor does he tell us how he got his information. His use of this material (that which a Christian did not interpolate) in his Jewish Antiquities has more to do with the embellishment of his work (a standard ploy of Josephus in his Antiquities) than with truth.
J. St. Paul NEVER saw or met any earthly Jesus. Paul’s letters are little more than theological discussions. If Paul had the Gospels at hand, why does he know so little about Jesus? It has long been known among scholars that the account of Paul’s life in the latter half of the Book of Acts and his Epistles can’t be reconciled. Moreover, like the Gospels themselves, neither Paul’s letters nor the New Testament as a whole can textually be dated with any certainty prior to 200 CE as there is no manuscript evidence.
K. None of the original apostles (be they 12 (Mark 6:7) or 72 (Luke 10: 1) or 120 (Acts 1: 15) left us anything. 1 and 2 Peter knows little of any Historical Jesus, but is highly theological.
L. The so-called Historical Jesus is nothing more than a straw man. To construct a so-called "Historical Jesus" out of the myth and theology of the Gospels is purely conjecture rebuilt on subjective ideas using the conflicting and contradicting Gospel accounts. There have been several dozen Historical Jesus figures created to vindicate anything that can come close to reality. When cut out of the mythical environment of the Gospels, we have nothing but a straw man created in the scholars own image. The Historical Jesus created by Bart Ehrman carries no more value that the Historical Jesus created by Thomas Jefferson after he took a knife to the Gospels stories in his Bible.
M. The use of “Jesus” by the Early Church Fathers is purely theological and used for rhetorical purposes. The confession of Jesus Christ is a statement of faith and not history.
N. While Christianity is mentioned by ten pagan writers, Jesus never is. (5)
O. Jesus is not mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Though we have about 930 texts and fragments of scrolls preserved by the dry climate of Palestine (often under bat dung), we find no Christian textual material from the first two centuries CE in Palestine. (6) Yet, with similar climate conditions in Egypt, the textual traditions of has left us with fifty-two texts, most dealing with Gnosticism.
P. The idea that Jesus was an itinerant non-literary prophet preacher is modeled after the same theory that Elijah and Elisha were also itinerant, non-literary prophets / preachers, but whose lives we now know are based entirely in fiction.
Q. Josephus, as governor of Galilee, had firsthand knowledge of the area and tells us that Galilee had “two hundred and four cities and villages” (7), yet he knows nothing about any town or village in lower Galilee called Nazareth . . . a place so important to Jesus in the Gospels. Neither is Nazareth mentioned in the Old Testament, nor in the Talmud nor in the Midrash.
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.c ... e.html?m=1
A. We have no firsthand testimony from anyone who knew Jesus or wrote anything about him during his life time. (All the Gospels are late and anonymous). No person living in Roman Palestine neither saw, knew of, nor heard of either Jesus or his followers.
B. We have nothing written by Jesus himself. Ironically, Jesus is portrayed as highly educated speaking Hebrew (Luke 4: 16 – 20), Aramaic (Matt. 27: 46), Greek (Matt. 16: 6) and Latin (Matt. 8: 5 -13), yet he remained unable to write anything. (The story of Jesus writing in the sand in John 8: 2 – 11 is textually late and begs the question as to why Jesus wrote nothing. This could be because the author(s) of these forged accounts didn’t know either Hebrew or Aramaic.) (1) Even Jesus’ contemporary, the itinerant miracle working Apollonius of Tyana had works ascribed to him. (2) In short, the lack of Jesus having left anything in writing could be due to the fact that the forgers of the Gospel traditions viewed their detailed verbatim creations as totally sufficient.
C. The Jesus of the Gospels cannot be separated from the context of myth and theology. Jesus will (and must) remain an integrated part of myth and faith joined at the head just as Siamese twins who share vital organs are joined. To remove some type of reconstructed “Historical Jesus” from his world of faith and myth will only destroy both.
D. The Gospels don’t tell us where they were composed. However, the fact they were composed in Greek and not a Semitic language which was native to Roman Palestine (such as Aramaic or Hebrew) points to their composition outside of Palestine. (See point, H)
E. While Roman Palestine is center-stage for the Gospels events, there has never been found any early manuscript of any Gospels or section of any Gospel or wall graffiti to validate Jesus ever lived in the entire country from Galilee to Jerusalem. In short, when scholars look to first century Roman Palestine for any evidence for the Gospel Jesus, they find totally nothing!
F. The early (65 -90 CE) traditional dates for the Gospels or purely based on conjecture and faith.
G. Philo (the only contemporary source during Jesus life time) doesn’t mention Jesus although Philo was acutely interested in the Jerusalem Temple and anything that happened there. A Jesus who fought with the Temple Priest and Jewish leaders in Jerusalem would have mostly likely caught Philo's attention.
H. Josephus’s account of Jesus (as well as his account of James and John the Baptist) is little more than Greek stories which tell us no more than what is stated in the Gospels composed outside of first century Palestine. These Gospels accounts were composed in Hellenistic Greek most likely in Asia Minor or somewhere around Alexander Egypt. (3) So far facts point to the case that early papyri such has P52, P45, P46, P47, P66, P72, and P75 (all found disposed of in Egypt) were likely also composed in Egypt. If this fact is correct, the statements by Josephus used to support a Historical Jesus have totally nothing to do with Roman Palestine, but Christian Egypt. This can be supported by the fact that most all quotations cited by the Old Testament are taken from the LXX ; a text which, like Jesus, never uses God’s personal name (Yahweh / Jehovah), but Theos. This very likely gives us a hint of the Gnostic theological beliefs of the composers as well as a location somewhere in Egypt for the creation of the Gospels traditions. (4)
I. I have discussed Josephus’s often wild and unreliable fabrications dealing with the Bible stated as history HERE Regardless, Josephus NEVER said he had any firsthand knowledge of these three Gospel events nor does he tell us how he got his information. His use of this material (that which a Christian did not interpolate) in his Jewish Antiquities has more to do with the embellishment of his work (a standard ploy of Josephus in his Antiquities) than with truth.
J. St. Paul NEVER saw or met any earthly Jesus. Paul’s letters are little more than theological discussions. If Paul had the Gospels at hand, why does he know so little about Jesus? It has long been known among scholars that the account of Paul’s life in the latter half of the Book of Acts and his Epistles can’t be reconciled. Moreover, like the Gospels themselves, neither Paul’s letters nor the New Testament as a whole can textually be dated with any certainty prior to 200 CE as there is no manuscript evidence.
K. None of the original apostles (be they 12 (Mark 6:7) or 72 (Luke 10: 1) or 120 (Acts 1: 15) left us anything. 1 and 2 Peter knows little of any Historical Jesus, but is highly theological.
L. The so-called Historical Jesus is nothing more than a straw man. To construct a so-called "Historical Jesus" out of the myth and theology of the Gospels is purely conjecture rebuilt on subjective ideas using the conflicting and contradicting Gospel accounts. There have been several dozen Historical Jesus figures created to vindicate anything that can come close to reality. When cut out of the mythical environment of the Gospels, we have nothing but a straw man created in the scholars own image. The Historical Jesus created by Bart Ehrman carries no more value that the Historical Jesus created by Thomas Jefferson after he took a knife to the Gospels stories in his Bible.
M. The use of “Jesus” by the Early Church Fathers is purely theological and used for rhetorical purposes. The confession of Jesus Christ is a statement of faith and not history.
N. While Christianity is mentioned by ten pagan writers, Jesus never is. (5)
O. Jesus is not mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Though we have about 930 texts and fragments of scrolls preserved by the dry climate of Palestine (often under bat dung), we find no Christian textual material from the first two centuries CE in Palestine. (6) Yet, with similar climate conditions in Egypt, the textual traditions of has left us with fifty-two texts, most dealing with Gnosticism.
P. The idea that Jesus was an itinerant non-literary prophet preacher is modeled after the same theory that Elijah and Elisha were also itinerant, non-literary prophets / preachers, but whose lives we now know are based entirely in fiction.
Q. Josephus, as governor of Galilee, had firsthand knowledge of the area and tells us that Galilee had “two hundred and four cities and villages” (7), yet he knows nothing about any town or village in lower Galilee called Nazareth . . . a place so important to Jesus in the Gospels. Neither is Nazareth mentioned in the Old Testament, nor in the Talmud nor in the Midrash.
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.c ... e.html?m=1
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
HA HA! Yet Josephus wasn't even born yet when the alleged Jesus supposedly lived and Josephus and Tacitus NEVER saw an earthly Jesus!Luminiferous wrote:
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
At least you post the link for your cut and paste this time. ![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
The writer of this piece, Harry H McCall is also a regular contributor to....wait for it.....
Freethoughtblogs.com
Yes, that dickheaded culty nonsense that you claim not to support OR quote from? Well, you've just quoted one of them again. That's gotta be two dozen or so Freethought quotes that you claim not to have made, Ratty. Freakishly co-incidental, or are you just too dumb to cover your tracks?
Please, try to be a little bit less transparent with your dickheadedness, Ratty.![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
You will now try to claim that I - an atheist - am really a secret Christian or something.![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
The writer of this piece, Harry H McCall is also a regular contributor to....wait for it.....
Freethoughtblogs.com
Yes, that dickheaded culty nonsense that you claim not to support OR quote from? Well, you've just quoted one of them again. That's gotta be two dozen or so Freethought quotes that you claim not to have made, Ratty. Freakishly co-incidental, or are you just too dumb to cover your tracks?
Please, try to be a little bit less transparent with your dickheadedness, Ratty.
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
You will now try to claim that I - an atheist - am really a secret Christian or something.
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
Keep denying REALITY fool! This has NOTHING to do with a website you fucking MORON but only the historical record. The "god" of the bible is no different than hundreds of other gods! Nothing but allegorical FICTION! Not a SINGLE historical figure EVER saw a major earthly bible character! NO ONE ever corroborated the existence of ANY major bible event! These are all historical FACTS that are true long before any websites existed!Hollywood's Burning wrote:At least you post the link for your cut and paste this time.
The writer of this piece, Harry H McCall is also a regular contributor to....wait for it.....
Freethoughtblogs.com
Yes, that dickheaded culty nonsense that you claim not to support OR quote from? Well, you've just quoted one of them again. That's gotta be two dozen or so Freethought quotes that you claim not to have made, Ratty. Freakishly co-incidental, or are you just too dumb to cover your tracks?
Please, try to be a little bit less transparent with your dickheadedness, Ratty.
You will now try to claim that I - an atheist - am really a secret Christian or something.
The bible is the biggest LIE ever told!! Now it's time for your meds at the nut house!
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
So you're just going to keep shouting the same thing over and over and over - while not addressing a single thing that is asked. OK.RATTrules wrote:Keep denying REALITY fool! This has NOTHING to do with a website you fucking MORON but only the historical record. The "god" of the bible is no different than hundreds of other gods! Nothing but allegorical FICTION! Not a SINGLE historical figure EVER saw a major earthly bible character! NO ONE ever corroborated the existence of ANY major bible event! These are all historical FACTS that are true long before any websites existed!
The bible is the biggest LIE ever told!! Now it's time for your meds at the nut house!
Are you ever going to address the fact that you lied repeatedly in order to support your failing position on your claims?
Why do you ALWAYS - seemingly "coincidentally" or so you claim - post quotations from members of the Freethought Movement? It must be into the dozens, now. Every single one of your rants can be traced back to one of their members - word for word. And you've posted another one today.
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
RATTrules wrote: We Know From Hard Evidence Dinosaurs Existed 66 Million Years Ago Yet We Have No Objective Evidence Jesus Existed Just 2 Thousands Years Ago
Did you scrap up enough pop bottles to pay the internet bill or did your mommy and daddy restore your internet privileges?
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
I should point out - I'm an atheist too, but RattRules is the kind of fuckwitted atheist that gives the rest of us a bad name.Grendel wrote:RATTRules is a plagarizing BITCH!!! He needs to stop being so critical of God's word and repent! He probably feels guilty about his lifestyle!
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
IMHO - "militant atheist" is as bad as "militant Christian" is as bad as "militant Muslim". All bullshit, all noise, and all can fuck off, frankly.
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
We need to pray the gay away for Rattrules. It's the only Christian thing to do for our brother.Grendel wrote:RATTRules is a plagarizing BITCH!!! He needs to stop being so critical of God's word and repent! He probably feels guilty about his lifestyle!
HeavyMetalZombie666 wrote:Of course your asshole is going to be sore when you volunteer for an asspounding and not set any boundaries at all.
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
I already won this argument! According to your logic you believe in many gods and religions! You cannot use the bible to prove the bible is real! You need objective sources outside the bible to corroborate the claims the bible makes!
You realize by your logic other scriptures like the Avesta, Adi Granth, Dhammapada, Book of Certitude, Bhagvad Gita, Rig Vedas, Upanishads, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Tibetan book of the Dead, etc. are ALL true if you simply use those books to prove those books are real!
I have even destroyed clergy when discussing if the bible and the characters in it are real. I mention to clergy that there are HUNDREDS of writers who wrote THOUSANDS of pages of scripture of other gods and religions. They simply said "those are fake". LMAO! I told them the same way you dismiss other scriptures you can dismiss the bible and they acknowledged defeat! The bible does NOT come with evidence attached to it or a footnote and bibliography page! NO religion has any more evidence than another. Pope John Paul even admitted this in an interview before he died! He admitted Christianity doesn't have any proof it is more real than any other religion!
Even the earliest Christians NEVER saw an earthly Jesus and neither did Gospel writers! They simply had FAITH but not EVIDENCE!
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
RATTrules wrote: <snip worthless egotistical grandstanding>
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
RATTrules wrote:Hollywood's Burning, you have been OWNED and DESTROYED because you have no rebuttal you fucking MORON so all you do is digress! This is about LOGIC and REASON & the evidence of the Judeo Christian MYTH is apparent long before the internet even existed!
I already won this argument! According to your logic you believe in many gods and religions! You cannot use the bible to prove the bible is real! You need objective sources outside the bible to corroborate the claims the bible makes!
You realize by your logic other scriptures like the Avesta, Adi Granth, Dhammapada, Book of Certitude, Bhagvad Gita, Rig Vedas, Upanishads, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Tibetan book of the Dead, etc. are ALL true if you simply use those books to prove those books are real!
I have even destroyed clergy when discussing if the bible and the characters in it are real. I mention to clergy that there are HUNDREDS of writers who wrote THOUSANDS of pages of scripture of other gods and religions. They simply said "those are fake". LMAO! I told them the same way you dismiss other scriptures you can dismiss the bible and they acknowledged defeat! The bible does NOT come with evidence attached to it or a footnote and bibliography page! NO religion has any more evidence than another. Pope John Paul even admitted this in an interview before he died! He admitted Christianity doesn't have any proof it is more real than any other religion!
Even the earliest Christians NEVER saw an earthly Jesus and neither did Gospel writers! They simply had FAITH but not EVIDENCE!
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
You sound like Moggio.
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
Repeating your accusation that I believe in many gods and religions doesn't change the fact that I'm an atheist you dumb fucker.RATTrules wrote:Hollywood's Burning, you have been OWNED and DESTROYED because you have no rebuttal you fucking MORON so all you do is digress! This is about LOGIC and REASON & the evidence of the Judeo Christian MYTH is apparent long before the internet even existed!
I already won this argument! According to your logic you believe in many gods and religions! You cannot use the bible to prove the bible is real! You need objective sources outside the bible to corroborate the claims the bible makes!
You realize by your logic other scriptures like the Avesta, Adi Granth, Dhammapada, Book of Certitude, Bhagvad Gita, Rig Vedas, Upanishads, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Tibetan book of the Dead, etc. are ALL true if you simply use those books to prove those books are real!
I have even destroyed clergy when discussing if the bible and the characters in it are real. I mention to clergy that there are HUNDREDS of writers who wrote THOUSANDS of pages of scripture of other gods and religions. They simply said "those are fake". LMAO! I told them the same way you dismiss other scriptures you can dismiss the bible and they acknowledged defeat! The bible does NOT come with evidence attached to it or a footnote and bibliography page! NO religion has any more evidence than another. Pope John Paul even admitted this in an interview before he died! He admitted Christianity doesn't have any proof it is more real than any other religion!
Even the earliest Christians NEVER saw an earthly Jesus and neither did Gospel writers! They simply had FAITH but not EVIDENCE!
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
The funny bit about how you "destroy clergy with your proof and they acknowledge defeat"? For some reason, I believe you are lying about that. Call it a hunch.
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
Your "arguments" are full of bullshit, and you continue to refuse to address the blatant lies of yours that I have now pointed out many times. Why won't you do this? This is not digressing - your words are "backed up" by untruths that you have deliberately avoided addressing. What exactly is your issue with answering direct questions? Why do you keep repeating yourself endlessly and telling me that I've "been destroyed" instead of answering a handful of really straighforward questions? Because dude, you are simply not convincing anyone, and it's starting to look like you foam at the mouth when you post.
Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
I still don't understand why some atheists try to argue so defiantly against something they claim doesn't exist in the first place.
And what the hell is this doing on the War board?
And what the hell is this doing on the War board?
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
RattRules follows the FreeThought movement - but he claims he doesn't, he just coincidentally quotes multiple members multiple times and tries to conceal the origin of the quotes - and their aim is to "liberate people from their faith". They basically try to browbeat people in debates - hence all the "I have destroyed you/I have destroyed clergy members" bullshit. They are also known for fabricating "historical proof" which is another of Ratty's favorites. Lots of noise signifying sweet fuck all, basically.DaveB wrote:I still don't understand why some atheists try to argue so defiantly against something they claim doesn't exist in the first place.
And what the hell is this doing on the War board?
It's on the War Board because RattRules is a dribbling fuckwit who couldn't find his ass with both hands.
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
I'm not siding with Rattdrools ( I hate that motherfucker ), but I understand atheists who "argue" against something that doesn't exist. There's this thing called a separation of church and state and when that's continually violated it pisses us off.DaveB wrote:I still don't understand why some atheists try to argue so defiantly against something they claim doesn't exist in the first place.
And what the hell is this doing on the War board?
Unfortunately all this board gets to see are retards like this Rattdrools mong, so in a way he makes all of look shitty.
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
EXACTLY. Now, according to RattRules frame of reference, that makes you a ChristNUT and multiple god worshipper sheep.killeverything wrote:I'm not siding with Rattdrools ( I hate that motherfucker ), but I understand atheists who "argue" against something that doesn't exist. There's this thing called a separation of church and state and when that's continually violated it pisses us off.DaveB wrote:I still don't understand why some atheists try to argue so defiantly against something they claim doesn't exist in the first place.
And what the hell is this doing on the War board?
Unfortunately all this board gets to see are retards like this Rattdrools mong, so in a way he makes all of look shitty.
The only person on the board who makes RattRules look rational and sane is the Rev.
Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
There's a book by a former atheist that did convert to Christianity called "The Case For Christ". The guy's name is Lee Strobel and he was a legal reporter for the Chicago Tribune. His job was to cut through the shit and get to the meat of whatever he was writing about. His wife had converted to Christianity and he decided to make like a journalist and do some digging.
He took every "why and how" question that atheists and agnostics have and took them to 14 different scholars on the subjects. And these weren't necessarily Christians, just experts. When he got all of his answers, he ended up becoming a Christian himself because of the overwhelming evidence in the existence of Jesus.
Take it for what it's worth. I'm not expecting RATTrules to buy into any of it just as I'm not buying into what he has posted. The reality of it is that the discussion between the two camps is the most useless conversation that could be.
He took every "why and how" question that atheists and agnostics have and took them to 14 different scholars on the subjects. And these weren't necessarily Christians, just experts. When he got all of his answers, he ended up becoming a Christian himself because of the overwhelming evidence in the existence of Jesus.
Take it for what it's worth. I'm not expecting RATTrules to buy into any of it just as I'm not buying into what he has posted. The reality of it is that the discussion between the two camps is the most useless conversation that could be.
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
RATTrules wrote:![]()
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I reckon all songs are folk songs. I ain't never heard no horses singing any.
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
Lee Stroubel`s "The Case For Christ" is actually an interesting read. I had to read it while I was going to college...had to take a ton of Biblical classes due to it being a Christian University I was attending. Not only did Stroubel go to well know theological scholars and ask questions, he was also provided with direct transcripts from multiple sources that documented Jesus outside of the Bible.DaveB wrote:There's a book by a former atheist that did convert to Christianity called "The Case For Christ". The guy's name is Lee Strobel and he was a legal reporter for the Chicago Tribune. His job was to cut through the shit and get to the meat of whatever he was writing about. His wife had converted to Christianity and he decided to make like a journalist and do some digging.
He took every "why and how" question that atheists and agnostics have and took them to 14 different scholars on the subjects. And these weren't necessarily Christians, just experts. When he got all of his answers, he ended up becoming a Christian himself because of the overwhelming evidence in the existence of Jesus.
Take it for what it's worth. I'm not expecting RATTrules to buy into any of it just as I'm not buying into what he has posted. The reality of it is that the discussion between the two camps is the most useless conversation that could be.
Whether or not Jesus was Gods son can not be answered, but the question as to whether or not a man named Jesus, from a town called Nazereth, who was a carpenter and a religious teacher did in fact exist, has been answered quite well in Stroubels book....
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." - George Washington
Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
Strobel began the book as an atheist so it wasn't like he purposely sought out those that were going to try to prove the existence of Jesus because of their personal beliefs. It wasn't like a Christian who was going to go to the local pastors...Strobel was looking for facts.BodyBagz wrote:DaveB wrote: Whether or not Jesus was Gods son can not be answered, but the question as to whether or not a man named Jesus, from a town called Nazereth, who was a carpenter and a religious teacher did in fact exist, has been answered quite well in Stroubels book....
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
Oh I know what he was doing, again, I read his book. My point was that he got confirmation from the scholars by way of non-Biblical texts.DaveB wrote:Strobel began the book as an atheist so it wasn't like he purposely sought out those that were going to try to prove the existence of Jesus because of their personal beliefs. It wasn't like a Christian who was going to go to the local pastors...Strobel was looking for facts.BodyBagz wrote:DaveB wrote: Whether or not Jesus was Gods son can not be answered, but the question as to whether or not a man named Jesus, from a town called Nazereth, who was a carpenter and a religious teacher did in fact exist, has been answered quite well in Stroubels book....
RattRules is the type of person who will ignore someone such as Stroubel now since he has converted from Atheism to Christianity...he will gladly beat a dead horse as his only option...
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." - George Washington
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
....and that is the primary weakness of the "hardcore atheist" argument - there are historical documents which mention the person of Jesus (as I've stated before, the whole "Son of God" thing is another matter entirely, and one which is down to faith or otherwise), and more specifically mention his execution - for reasons along the lines of inciting civil disturbance etc - and atheists will often attempt to debunk each of these. The Freethought movement, however attempt to debunk these via bullshit - RattRules, for example has parrotted that Tacitus also claimed that Hercules was real, so his claims that Jesus was a real person can also be dismissed. Inconveniently for Ratty, Tacitus never claimed anything of the sort - what he *actually* wrote was that Germanic troops sang songs about Hercules before they went into battle. Not quite the same thing as "stating that Hercules was a real person". But Ratty clearly got that little chestnut from the Freethought Forums and repeated it here verbatimBodyBagz wrote:RattRules is the type of person who will ignore someone such as Stroubel now since he has converted from Atheism to Christianity...he will gladly beat a dead horse as his only option...
Another pet Freethought complaint is that all the historical evidence of the existence of the person of Jesus came "after the event" - which of course completely ignores the fact that *all* history is written after the event - that is one of its defining characteristics, after all.
But the FreeThought movement commonly try to support their attack on things which are a matter of faith with "fake facts" - it only takes a little investigation to debunk their statements. Fucking idiots like these are as bad as the religious fundamentalists (insert denomination here) that they claim to oppose.
RattRules, however, isn't even smart enough to cover his tracks when he's claiming to be expressing his own opinions, and it's fuckwits like him who give other atheists a bad name. Hell, most atheists I know don't even consider the topic, let alone spend their waking hours trying to "destroy clergy" as RattRules rather comically claims, and "liberate people from their faith".
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
In summary - he's a twat.
Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
Yeah, I was actually trying to confirm what you were saying but I guess it sounded like I was debating you. Sorry 'bout that.BodyBagz wrote: Oh I know what he was doing, again, I read his book. My point was that he got confirmation from the scholars by way of non-Biblical texts.
As for this Free Thought Movement...never heard of them. But assuming that what RR posted is straight from them, and I doubt that it's his own personal thoughts, then they seem as utterly useless as The Westboro Baptist bunch.
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
RattRules denies it's from them, but several of his posts in the past have been cut and paste verbatim from FT forums and articles, without credit to the original author, while Ratty states that his thoughts have been arrived at via research and scientific proofDaveB wrote:Yeah, I was actually trying to confirm what you were saying but I guess it sounded like I was debating you. Sorry 'bout that.BodyBagz wrote: Oh I know what he was doing, again, I read his book. My point was that he got confirmation from the scholars by way of non-Biblical texts.
As for this Free Thought Movement...never heard of them. But assuming that what RR posted is straight from them, and I doubt that it's his own personal thoughts, then they seem as utterly useless as The Westboro Baptist bunch.
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
It's a shame, the FT movement in Europe began in quite a healthy way, but when it got to the States it distorted into something different entirely. Besides, anyone who describes themselves as a "hardcore atheist" (Ratty, again), is going to have some major issues, just as much as a "hardcore Christian" or "hardcore Muslim".
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
RATTrules wrote:Keep denying REALITY fool! This has NOTHING to do with a website you fucking MORON but only the historical record. The "god" of the bible is no different than hundreds of other gods! Nothing but allegorical FICTION! Not a SINGLE historical figure EVER saw a major earthly bible character! NO ONE ever corroborated the existence of ANY major bible event! These are all historical FACTS that are true long before any websites existed!Hollywood's Burning wrote:At least you post the link for your cut and paste this time.
The writer of this piece, Harry H McCall is also a regular contributor to....wait for it.....
Freethoughtblogs.com
Yes, that dickheaded culty nonsense that you claim not to support OR quote from? Well, you've just quoted one of them again. That's gotta be two dozen or so Freethought quotes that you claim not to have made, Ratty. Freakishly co-incidental, or are you just too dumb to cover your tracks?
Please, try to be a little bit less transparent with your dickheadedness, Ratty.
You will now try to claim that I - an atheist - am really a secret Christian or something.
The bible is the biggest LIE ever told!! Now it's time for your meds at the nut house!
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
You haven't read the thread, have you.grishnak boss wrote:pwnd
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
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Re: Best analysis EVER on how Jesus is clearly a MYTH!
Thank you! I will show this to my christian friends.RATTrules wrote: We Know From Hard Evidence Dinosaurs Existed 66 Million Years Ago Yet We Have No Objective Evidence Jesus Existed Just 2 Thousands Years Ago
A. We have no firsthand testimony from anyone who knew Jesus or wrote anything about him during his life time. (All the Gospels are late and anonymous). No person living in Roman Palestine neither saw, knew of, nor heard of either Jesus or his followers.
B. We have nothing written by Jesus himself. Ironically, Jesus is portrayed as highly educated speaking Hebrew (Luke 4: 16 – 20), Aramaic (Matt. 27: 46), Greek (Matt. 16: 6) and Latin (Matt. 8: 5 -13), yet he remained unable to write anything. (The story of Jesus writing in the sand in John 8: 2 – 11 is textually late and begs the question as to why Jesus wrote nothing. This could be because the author(s) of these forged accounts didn’t know either Hebrew or Aramaic.) (1) Even Jesus’ contemporary, the itinerant miracle working Apollonius of Tyana had works ascribed to him. (2) In short, the lack of Jesus having left anything in writing could be due to the fact that the forgers of the Gospel traditions viewed their detailed verbatim creations as totally sufficient.
C. The Jesus of the Gospels cannot be separated from the context of myth and theology. Jesus will (and must) remain an integrated part of myth and faith joined at the head just as Siamese twins who share vital organs are joined. To remove some type of reconstructed “Historical Jesus” from his world of faith and myth will only destroy both.
D. The Gospels don’t tell us where they were composed. However, the fact they were composed in Greek and not a Semitic language which was native to Roman Palestine (such as Aramaic or Hebrew) points to their composition outside of Palestine. (See point, H)
E. While Roman Palestine is center-stage for the Gospels events, there has never been found any early manuscript of any Gospels or section of any Gospel or wall graffiti to validate Jesus ever lived in the entire country from Galilee to Jerusalem. In short, when scholars look to first century Roman Palestine for any evidence for the Gospel Jesus, they find totally nothing!
F. The early (65 -90 CE) traditional dates for the Gospels or purely based on conjecture and faith.
G. Philo (the only contemporary source during Jesus life time) doesn’t mention Jesus although Philo was acutely interested in the Jerusalem Temple and anything that happened there. A Jesus who fought with the Temple Priest and Jewish leaders in Jerusalem would have mostly likely caught Philo's attention.
H. Josephus’s account of Jesus (as well as his account of James and John the Baptist) is little more than Greek stories which tell us no more than what is stated in the Gospels composed outside of first century Palestine. These Gospels accounts were composed in Hellenistic Greek most likely in Asia Minor or somewhere around Alexander Egypt. (3) So far facts point to the case that early papyri such has P52, P45, P46, P47, P66, P72, and P75 (all found disposed of in Egypt) were likely also composed in Egypt. If this fact is correct, the statements by Josephus used to support a Historical Jesus have totally nothing to do with Roman Palestine, but Christian Egypt. This can be supported by the fact that most all quotations cited by the Old Testament are taken from the LXX ; a text which, like Jesus, never uses God’s personal name (Yahweh / Jehovah), but Theos. This very likely gives us a hint of the Gnostic theological beliefs of the composers as well as a location somewhere in Egypt for the creation of the Gospels traditions. (4)
I. I have discussed Josephus’s often wild and unreliable fabrications dealing with the Bible stated as history HERE Regardless, Josephus NEVER said he had any firsthand knowledge of these three Gospel events nor does he tell us how he got his information. His use of this material (that which a Christian did not interpolate) in his Jewish Antiquities has more to do with the embellishment of his work (a standard ploy of Josephus in his Antiquities) than with truth.
J. St. Paul NEVER saw or met any earthly Jesus. Paul’s letters are little more than theological discussions. If Paul had the Gospels at hand, why does he know so little about Jesus? It has long been known among scholars that the account of Paul’s life in the latter half of the Book of Acts and his Epistles can’t be reconciled. Moreover, like the Gospels themselves, neither Paul’s letters nor the New Testament as a whole can textually be dated with any certainty prior to 200 CE as there is no manuscript evidence.
K. None of the original apostles (be they 12 (Mark 6:7) or 72 (Luke 10: 1) or 120 (Acts 1: 15) left us anything. 1 and 2 Peter knows little of any Historical Jesus, but is highly theological.
L. The so-called Historical Jesus is nothing more than a straw man. To construct a so-called "Historical Jesus" out of the myth and theology of the Gospels is purely conjecture rebuilt on subjective ideas using the conflicting and contradicting Gospel accounts. There have been several dozen Historical Jesus figures created to vindicate anything that can come close to reality. When cut out of the mythical environment of the Gospels, we have nothing but a straw man created in the scholars own image. The Historical Jesus created by Bart Ehrman carries no more value that the Historical Jesus created by Thomas Jefferson after he took a knife to the Gospels stories in his Bible.
M. The use of “Jesus” by the Early Church Fathers is purely theological and used for rhetorical purposes. The confession of Jesus Christ is a statement of faith and not history.
N. While Christianity is mentioned by ten pagan writers, Jesus never is. (5)
O. Jesus is not mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Though we have about 930 texts and fragments of scrolls preserved by the dry climate of Palestine (often under bat dung), we find no Christian textual material from the first two centuries CE in Palestine. (6) Yet, with similar climate conditions in Egypt, the textual traditions of has left us with fifty-two texts, most dealing with Gnosticism.
P. The idea that Jesus was an itinerant non-literary prophet preacher is modeled after the same theory that Elijah and Elisha were also itinerant, non-literary prophets / preachers, but whose lives we now know are based entirely in fiction.
Q. Josephus, as governor of Galilee, had firsthand knowledge of the area and tells us that Galilee had “two hundred and four cities and villages” (7), yet he knows nothing about any town or village in lower Galilee called Nazareth . . . a place so important to Jesus in the Gospels. Neither is Nazareth mentioned in the Old Testament, nor in the Talmud nor in the Midrash.
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