The piece of shit KISS contract that VInnie kept refusing to sign

[Tommy2Tone84]

Cool article about how shitty the contract was, and the contract itsself!

https://tcarsc.blogspot.com/2011/12/288 ... p.html?m=1

Is it the same one Eric and Bruce signed?

[pieceofme]

Shame he didn't sign. He might be a nutcase but the material he did with Gene and Paul was strong. Those 80s albums after lick it up would arguably have been stronger if he was still part of the group.

[Tommy2Tone84]

Shame he didn't sign. He might be a nutcase but the material he did with Gene and Paul was strong. Those 80s albums after lick it up would arguably have been stronger if he was still part of the group.

I like Asylum better than anything they did from 1980-1995. It was their most 70s like in many respects. I will say I like Paul’s original version of Deadly Weapons. Gene’s isn’t terrible but it’s not his best. I prefer Trial By Fire and Secretly Cruel. Both songs should have been concert staples at the time.

Like It Up has some dead wood on it. Fits Like A Glove is the most glaring.


Had they or Paul rather, gotten Bruce or Steve in the band and allowed them, along with Eric Carr to really write and contribute, their albums would’ve been far superior on average than what they ended up releasing. Paul and Ron Nevison are a couple of morons. Gene and Paul were any better on HITS.

Revenge has a lot of dead wood on it too. Everyone disses Uh All Night on Asylum but I’ll take it over I Just Wanna and Take It Off not to mention garbage like Tough Love and Spit.

[pieceofme]

Shame he didn't sign. He might be a nutcase but the material he did with Gene and Paul was strong. Those 80s albums after lick it up would arguably have been stronger if he was still part of the group.

I like Asylum better than anything they did from 1980-1995. It was their most 70s like in many respects. I will say I like Paul’s original version of Deadly Weapons. Gene’s isn’t terrible but it’s not his best. I prefer Trial By Fire and Secretly Cruel. Both songs should have been concert staples at the time.

Like It Up has some dead wood on it. Fits Like A Glove is the most glaring.


Had they or Paul rather, gotten Bruce or Steve in the band and allowed them, along with Eric Carr to really write and contribute, their albums would’ve been far superior on average than what they ended up releasing. Paul and Ron Nevison are a couple of morons. Gene and Paul were any better on HITS.

Revenge has a lot of dead wood on it too. Everyone disses Uh All Night on Asylum but I’ll take it over I Just Wanna and Take It Off not to mention garbage like Tough Love and Spit.

Fits like a glove is definitely the weak track on lick it up. The only one I skip. Why they tried to force it be a live staple in the 80s I'm not sure.

I would also take Uh All Night over quite a few Revenge songs. Especially spit and I Just Wanna.

Uh All Night has a great riff.

[MetalSludgeCEO]

Shame he didn't sign. He might be a nutcase but the material he did with Gene and Paul was strong. Those 80s albums after lick it up would arguably have been stronger if he was still part of the group.

"""""Those 80s albums after lick it up would arguably have been stronger if he was still part of the group."""""""""""""

Not necessarily the case...

Lots of bands have GREAT records, HIT records, KILLER songs, etc... and then, they fall off.

Skid Row had a huge debut, decent follow-up and by the 3rd release - well, you know.

Had VV stuck around, there was NO guarantee of anything, other than... he was proving to be a huge pain in the ass. So, they cut the cord.

Similarly, he proved to be a huge pain in the ass on round 2, with his own band that he controlled, and it was marred by turmoil and everyone quit.

Anyone who cannot grasp that VV is the cancer, the toxic person he truly is, is as delusional as he is.

$tEvil

[Tommy2Tone84]

Shame he didn't sign. He might be a nutcase but the material he did with Gene and Paul was strong. Those 80s albums after lick it up would arguably have been stronger if he was still part of the group.

I like Asylum better than anything they did from 1980-1995. It was their most 70s like in many respects. I will say I like Paul’s original version of Deadly Weapons. Gene’s isn’t terrible but it’s not his best. I prefer Trial By Fire and Secretly Cruel. Both songs should have been concert staples at the time.

Like It Up has some dead wood on it. Fits Like A Glove is the most glaring.


Had they or Paul rather, gotten Bruce or Steve in the band and allowed them, along with Eric Carr to really write and contribute, their albums would’ve been far superior on average than what they ended up releasing. Paul and Ron Nevison are a couple of morons. Gene and Paul were any better on HITS.

Revenge has a lot of dead wood on it too. Everyone disses Uh All Night on Asylum but I’ll take it over I Just Wanna and Take It Off not to mention garbage like Tough Love and Spit.

Fits like a glove is definitely the weak track on lick it up. The only one I skip. Why they tried to force it be a live staple in the 80s I'm not sure.

I would also take Uh All Night over quite a few Revenge songs. Especially spit and I Just Wanna.

Uh All Night has a great riff.

Fits Like A Glove was world class when I was a teenager. It didn’t age well.

Uh All Night has a great riff and solo. It’s better than I Just Wanna. It should’ve been a concert staple during the mid to late 80

Dance All Over Your Face was Lame too.

[El Vampiro Blanco]

Shame he didn't sign. He might be a nutcase but the material he did with Gene and Paul was strong. Those 80s albums after lick it up would arguably have been stronger if he was still part of the group.

"""""Those 80s albums after lick it up would arguably have been stronger if he was still part of the group."""""""""""""

Not necessarily the case...

Lots of bands have GREAT records, HIT records, KILLER songs, etc... and then, they fall off.

Skid Row had a huge debut, decent follow-up and by the 3rd release - well, you know.

Had VV stuck around, there was NO guarantee of anything, other than... he was proving to be a huge pain in the ass. So, they cut the cord.

Similarly, he proved to be a huge pain in the ass on round 2, with his own band that he controlled, and it was marred by turmoil and everyone quit.

Anyone who cannot grasp that VV is the cancer, the toxic person he truly is, is as delusional as he is.

$tEvil

Yes and no.
If we can assume that first VVI record would have been the next Kiss record, but without the ridiculous vocals and guitar wankery, that album would have been vastly superior to Animalize.
However, I am not so sure Gene and Paul would have permitted another album with that many writing credits by someone else....unless a deal was made on the financials.
And that brings us back on the same problem with Vinnie....

[Love_Industry]

If we can assume that first VVI record would have been the next Kiss record, but without the ridiculous vocals and guitar wankery, that album would have been vastly superior to Animalize.

Contrary to the official story, VV was working with Hirsh Gardner on songs for the next Kiss album and was constantly on the phone with Paul and Gene for a couple of months after the tour. The authors of the book Time Traveller got the demos from Hirsh and 4 out of 5 songs ended up on the first VVI, without vocals but sounding a lot more organic and Kiss like: Boyz are Gonna Rock (new verses as Gene used the old ones for And On the 8th Day), Shoot U Full Of Love (reusing the riff from the Warrior demo I Need Love), Twisted (faster version), Gypsy in her Eyes (same as Warrior demo) and Animal.

4 or 5 co-writes would have been doable for G&P.... and Gene needed co-writing help desperately on Animalize.

[Love_Industry]

So did Paul. Every song of his is a cowrote. And they’re still shit.

They needed MJJ to produce as well. Paul isn’t a producer. He’s only got one ear for fuck’s sake.

Animalize with VV would have been one of the best albums they’d ever done. They should have done that with MJJ producing and then maybe brought Ezrin back for the followup and done something a bit more adventurous.

Agree with this except that Paul wrote one of his best songs of the 80s in I've Had Enough. But also one of his worst in Thrills in the Night. Maybe there's something worse on Hot in the Shade, but I can't remember most songs on there.

BTW Desmond Child has said he doesn't even know about the song Under the Gun, which he is credited on, so Paul probably just recycled some parts they wrote together earlier and gave him a credit.

[Tommy2Tone84]

Shame he didn't sign. He might be a nutcase but the material he did with Gene and Paul was strong. Those 80s albums after lick it up would arguably have been stronger if he was still part of the group.

"""""Those 80s albums after lick it up would arguably have been stronger if he was still part of the group."""""""""""""

Not necessarily the case...

Lots of bands have GREAT records, HIT records, KILLER songs, etc... and then, they fall off.

Skid Row had a huge debut, decent follow-up and by the 3rd release - well, you know.

Had VV stuck around, there was NO guarantee of anything, other than... he was proving to be a huge pain in the ass. So, they cut the cord.

Similarly, he proved to be a huge pain in the ass on round 2, with his own band that he controlled, and it was marred by turmoil and everyone quit.

Anyone who cannot grasp that VV is the cancer, the toxic person he truly is, is as delusional as he is.

$tEvil

Yes and no.
If we can assume that first VVI record would have been the next Kiss record, but without the ridiculous vocals and guitar wankery, that album would have been vastly superior to Animalize.
However, I am not so sure Gene and Paul would have permitted another album with that many writing credits by someone else....unless a deal was made on the financials.
And that brings us back on the same problem with Vinnie....

Animalize is one of my least favorite 80s KISS records and I still like it better than either VV record. I’ve Had Enough is better than anything Vinnie has ever wrote. That includes Unholy. Boyz R Gonna Rawk is shiite

[Love_Industry]

Read My Body.

Or I’m Alive and Radar For Love from Assylum.

Or Bang Bang You from Lazy Shytes.

I like Thrills in the Night less than most of those. And they're bad. You Love Me to Hate You may be worse and of course 90s garbage like It Never Ends and Nothing Can Keep Me From You.

[Wiseacre]

… But also one of his worst in Thrills in the Night.

Thrills in the Night is one of the best things Paul had written since Love Gun. Fantastic song. Especially compared to the other lame shit they were recording at that time. Best song on the album and 10x better than stupid Heaven’s On Fire which is almost as bad as Lick It Up (the song)

[DangerZone]

Fits like a glove is good.
Dance all over your face is awesome.
‘On the 8th day’ is the suck song of lick it up

I’ve had enough is awesome.
Rest of animalize sucks

Asylum has a few classic songs.
Who wants to be lonely one of Paul’s best.

Revenge is a terrible album

[pieceofme]

Thrills in the Night is a good song. Weird song to dislike. Oh its love industry why am I not surprised

[Love_Industry]

Thrills in the Night is a good song. Weird song to dislike. Oh its love industry why am I not surprised

It's easier to understand if you know that I don't like anything Jean Beauvoir has written. Cool rock star look, good musician, crap songwriter. And Thrills sounds more Jean than Paul. Or Gene. But it’s not as bad as three out of four Gene songs on Animalize which says something about Gene's songwriting at the time.

[windycitycane]

This entire discussion begs the question,

Did Bruce and Eric have to sign similar deals?

Did they expect Bruce to be just as much a songwriter ?

[LurkingAtWork]

Thrills in the Night sucks.

[RaceFan3]

Animalize with VV would've been interesting. Some songs from the first VVI record could've been KISS-ified to make them work for that album. "Animal" could've been fitting, both in music and title. Maybe P&G would've even let VV sing "Back on the Streets"...doubtful, but maybe.

Oh, the glory that could have been.

[Wiseacre]

Thrills in the Night sucks.

I don’t get this at all. It’s right up there with “A Million To One” as Paul’s best post-makeup songs, IMO. Cool riff in the verse, interesting arrangement, great pre-chorus and strong hooky chorus. And I'm sure the chorus was Paul because it is basically “Nowhere To Run”. It’s all a matter of personal taste, but that song is as good as that version of KISS ever was. Top-notch song for that genre.

[LurkingAtWork]

Thrills in the Night sucks.

I don’t get this at all. It’s right up there with “A Million To One” as Paul’s best post-makeup songs, IMO. Cool riff in the verse, interesting arrangement, great pre-chorus and strong hooky chorus. And I'm sure the chorus was Paul because it is basically “Nowhere To Run”. It’s all a matter of personal taste, but that song is as good as that version of KISS ever was. Top-notch song for that genre.

You're incorrect, terrible song on a terrible album. I've Had Enough is the only thing saving this turd platter.

[pieceofme]

Thrills in the Night sucks.

I don’t get this at all. It’s right up there with “A Million To One” as Paul’s best post-makeup songs, IMO. Cool riff in the verse, interesting arrangement, great pre-chorus and strong hooky chorus. And I'm sure the chorus was Paul because it is basically “Nowhere To Run”. It’s all a matter of personal taste, but that song is as good as that version of KISS ever was. Top-notch song for that genre.

I concur.

[Tommy2Tone84]

Even Lemmy, being such a good friend of Oz, said he received 50K for his No More Tears work in a lump sum and he was very happy with it...

Jesus christ is that all? I also saw a Lemmy quote where Lemmy said he made more from NMT than his whole Motorhead career up till that point, and if 50K is the number, that's just sad.

Didn’t he live in a little, rinky dink apartment by The Rainbow?

Sharon and Oz sound like Colonial and Elvis.

Vinnie had some high ground since KISS were literally in the toilet when he began working with the band.

This is always easier said than done. But he and his attorney should’ve asked for publishing and not agreed on anything related to KISS keeping his publishing. KISS needed Vinnie or someone like him at the time, if they didn’t o couldn’t agree then there is no shame in walking away.

Vinnie had been around as a session player and tv score guy. He was either 30 or pushing 30. He wasn’t some wet behind the ears kid. Finding a good attorney was probably expensive and challenging at the time.

The problem with Vinnie is, he’s as bad as Gene and Paul from the sounds of it, he treats his fans horribly from everything I’ve read.

[kingbrian74]

Even Lemmy, being such a good friend of Oz, said he received 50K for his No More Tears work in a lump sum and he was very happy with it...

Jesus christ is that all? I also saw a Lemmy quote where Lemmy said he made more from NMT than his whole Motorhead career up till that point, and if 50K is the number, that's just sad.

The problem with Vinnie is, he’s as bad as Gene and Paul from the sounds of it, he treats his fans horribly from everything I’ve read.

In my experience, this is not true at all.

Again, just my experience.

[Tommy2Tone84]

Jesus christ is that all? I also saw a Lemmy quote where Lemmy said he made more from NMT than his whole Motorhead career up till that point, and if 50K is the number, that's just sad.

The problem with Vinnie is, he’s as bad as Gene and Paul from the sounds of it, he treats his fans horribly from everything I’ve read.

In my experience, this is not true at all.

Again, just my experience.

You seem to be in the minority. Maybe you’re some kind of Vinnie Whisperer. There’s always three sides to the story.

Ace is a money grubbing asshole. That much I do know and have witnessed first hand

[Tommy2Tone84]

$2k a week in 1983, today is the equivalent of $6,300.00 per week, or $327,000.00 per year!

Not adding, or considering, travel per-diems, and the rest is covered by the band, re: flights, hotels, rehearsals, stage clothes, gear, etc...

I've heard from some various industry friends close to that camp for years, when you're in the band, those guys are also getting Health Insurance, Dental, Eyes, Hair Restoration, and more. Lots of perks being in a world-class act traveling the globe 1st class or Private and staying in 5 Star hotels. At that level is something few get the opportunity to do.

I didn't read the entire thing, but it clearly states "KISS owns everything related", and Vinnie was getting a salary to be in the band.

I don't see this as being a horrible deal, to tour the world (with NO risk of your own) and make twice the amount a Doctor or Lawyer pulls in.

$tEvil

You're right, that amount of $ is huge when you factor in inflation. Since you didnt read everything, KISS was basically saying they owned all his prior songs, and all his future work as well. Its more complicated than that, but the gist is he'd be signing everything away to make a great salary.

That would have been an amazing deal for a Mark St John, but if a songwriter like Vin thought he could have been a platinum artist without them (say his debut was Slaughter's first album, instead of VVI), then he's chaining himself to KISS forever as a salaryman. With hindsight, it might have worked out better than his VVI flameout, but KISS' contract was excessively onerous, and I dont blame him for not bending over and taking it up the ass from them.

Yeah... I get it, and recall hearing about, or reading about that.

But... here is the kicker...

Poison signed to Enigma, for a sh!t deal. They were given like $15-20k to make a record, and weren't promised a thing.

Motley Crue, Metallica, and others... even less. Signed to small indy deals, with contracts there were HORRIBLE for their career.

However, they signed that horrible deal anyway, which was lackluster for sure and took the chance. They bet on themselves.

Then... after they sold huge and went Gold, then Platinum and Dbl Platinum... they turned around and said: "Hey, guess what Mr. Record Label... why don't you talk to our Lawyer about the next record, budget, points, advance, etc..."

Like a walk-on sports player, whether baseball, basketball or football... show up as a nobody, and prove your worth. Then, when it goes to another level, and they KNOW it's because of you... you will have more bargaining power.

With that... I am sure many will say; "Wasn't "Lick It Up" enough proof?" Well, sure... of course that was a great point, and something to hang your hat when fighting for a better deal. I 100% agree.

We all know now... Vinnie has proven to be not of sound mind even 40 years later... with delusional thoughts, decisions and more. I am sure he was 10x the nightmare when he was younger, riding the wave of success and feeling empowered.

Now, looking back, and knowing a lot of what Vinnie did with VVI, and since, where he's clearly been VERY delusional and way out to lunch with his ideas, offers, and follow-through when it came to promises and the like. Let's also look at Gene, Paul & KISS, over the time since... it's night and day.

In the end, Vinnie is exactly where he should be, with many others who sh!t the bed with their opportunities in their bands, other's bands, their career and more.

Kiss won, Vinnie lost. Kiss was right, Vinnie was wrong. The same could apply to the guys in Slaughter, as they won, and Vinnie lost again!

Then... the fans... Vinnie won (took their money) and the Fans all lost. Many of whom got burned from the guy over and over.

I am #teamkiss

$tEvil

Somebody brought up that you’re ignoring the publishing part of the equation. Which is true.

Did Desmond sign that kind of deal? Do Gene and Paul own Desmond Child and Rouge’s stuff along with everything Desmond has done since 1979? Do Gene and Paul own a percentage of Living On A Prayer?

Do they own all of Van Halen’s? Which Gene very easily could’ve owned them for life but for some reason, he didn’t.

The publishing part of the contact sounds lopsided. Vinnie was pushing 30 or was 30 and
knew the ropes. I didn’t think asking for better, more equable terms in publishing is a big ask on his part

You’re not wrong about Vinnie but it’s not like the Slaughter guys or atleast Dana and Mark were awesome. You hated them for a long
time on here.

I’m not a big fan of his but I don’t blame Vinnie for not signing the contract if he had issues with the publishing part of it.
Owning everything he did before and after is a gross overreach.


Was Zakk getting a lump sum on No More Tears?

You brought up Poison. They did sign a shitty record deal but they did own their own publishing. Correct? I remember they also ended up suing some of the people, players and movers and shakers involved with their career during Open Up and Say Ahh.

[MetalSludgeCEO]

You're right, that amount of $ is huge when you factor in inflation. Since you didnt read everything, KISS was basically saying they owned all his prior songs, and all his future work as well. Its more complicated than that, but the gist is he'd be signing everything away to make a great salary.

That would have been an amazing deal for a Mark St John, but if a songwriter like Vin thought he could have been a platinum artist without them (say his debut was Slaughter's first album, instead of VVI), then he's chaining himself to KISS forever as a salaryman. With hindsight, it might have worked out better than his VVI flameout, but KISS' contract was excessively onerous, and I dont blame him for not bending over and taking it up the ass from them.

Yeah... I get it, and recall hearing about, or reading about that.

But... here is the kicker...

Poison signed to Enigma, for a sh!t deal. They were given like $15-20k to make a record, and weren't promised a thing.

Motley Crue, Metallica, and others... even less. Signed to small indy deals, with contracts there were HORRIBLE for their career.

However, they signed that horrible deal anyway, which was lackluster for sure and took the chance. They bet on themselves.

Then... after they sold huge and went Gold, then Platinum and Dbl Platinum... they turned around and said: "Hey, guess what Mr. Record Label... why don't you talk to our Lawyer about the next record, budget, points, advance, etc..."

Like a walk-on sports player, whether baseball, basketball or football... show up as a nobody, and prove your worth. Then, when it goes to another level, and they KNOW it's because of you... you will have more bargaining power.

With that... I am sure many will say; "Wasn't "Lick It Up" enough proof?" Well, sure... of course that was a great point, and something to hang your hat when fighting for a better deal. I 100% agree.

We all know now... Vinnie has proven to be not of sound mind even 40 years later... with delusional thoughts, decisions and more. I am sure he was 10x the nightmare when he was younger, riding the wave of success and feeling empowered.

Now, looking back, and knowing a lot of what Vinnie did with VVI, and since, where he's clearly been VERY delusional and way out to lunch with his ideas, offers, and follow-through when it came to promises and the like. Let's also look at Gene, Paul & KISS, over the time since... it's night and day.

In the end, Vinnie is exactly where he should be, with many others who sh!t the bed with their opportunities in their bands, other's bands, their career and more.

Kiss won, Vinnie lost. Kiss was right, Vinnie was wrong. The same could apply to the guys in Slaughter, as they won, and Vinnie lost again!

Then... the fans... Vinnie won (took their money) and the Fans all lost. Many of whom got burned from the guy over and over.

I am #teamkiss

$tEvil

Somebody brought up that you’re ignoring the publishing part of the equation. Which is true.

Did Desmond sign that kind of deal? Do Gene and Paul own Desmond Child and Rouge’s stuff along with everything Desmond has done since 1979? Do Gene and Paul own a percentage of Living On A Prayer?

Do they own all of Van Halen’s? Which Gene very easily could’ve owned them for life but for some reason, he didn’t.

The publishing part of the contact sounds lopsided. Vinnie was pushing 30 or was 30 and
knew the ropes. I didn’t think asking for better, more equable terms in publishing is a big ask on his part

You’re not wrong about Vinnie but it’s not like the Slaughter guys or atleast Dana and Mark were awesome. You hated them for a long
time on here.

I’m not a big fan of his but I don’t blame Vinnie for not signing the contract if he had issues with the publishing part of it.
Owning everything he did before and after is a gross overreach.


Was Zakk getting a lump sum on No More Tears?

You brought up Poison. They did sign a shitty record deal but they did own their own publishing. Correct? I remember they also ended up suing some of the people, players and movers and shakers involved with their career during Open Up and Say Ahh.

"""""""""""""but it’s not like the Slaughter guys or at least Dana and Mark were awesome. You hated them for a long time on here.""""""""""""""""

This statement is NOT in the least bit true... not for 1 second... that would be the other "so-called" funny guy that some of you take up for.

This was "part" of the on-going issue back in the day, when certain people had feelings, wrote things about others, that they didn't like or care for and I did not agree with it.

I can't tell you the number of times I had small wars with the former "Editor in Chief" on this site for writing and publishing something I did NOT in any way align with.

I will leave it at that regarding that comment.

$tEvil

[superglide88]

Jesus christ is that all? I also saw a Lemmy quote where Lemmy said he made more from NMT than his whole Motorhead career up till that point, and if 50K is the number, that's just sad.

The problem with Vinnie is, he’s as bad as Gene and Paul from the sounds of it, he treats his fans horribly from everything I’ve read.

In my experience, this is not true at all.

Again, just my experience.

Why is that? Did she let you wipe her cum off your face before she kicked you out of her dressing room?
Are you that fat dude that interviewed her?

[HueyRamone]

The problem with Vinnie is, he’s as bad as Gene and Paul from the sounds of it, he treats his fans horribly from everything I’ve read.

In my experience, this is not true at all.

Again, just my experience.

Why is that? Did she let you wipe her cum off your face before she kicked you out of her dressing room?
Are you that fat dude that interviewed her?

Hey, quit treating King Brian poorly!

He may be a Vin fan, but he's OUR Vin fan!

[kingbrian74]

The problem with Vinnie is, he’s as bad as Gene and Paul from the sounds of it, he treats his fans horribly from everything I’ve read.

In my experience, this is not true at all.

Again, just my experience.

You seem to be in the minority. Maybe you’re some kind of Vinnie Whisperer. There’s always three sides to the story.

Ace is a money grubbing asshole. That much I do know and have witnessed first hand

Every niw and then, there is a sludge line that makes me laugh out loud.

Vinnie whisperer did it! Well played. Hahaha. Love it.

[kingbrian74]

The problem with Vinnie is, he’s as bad as Gene and Paul from the sounds of it, he treats his fans horribly from everything I’ve read.

In my experience, this is not true at all.

Again, just my experience.

Why is that? Did she let you wipe her cum off your face before she kicked you out of her dressing room?
Are you that fat dude that interviewed her?

And then on the other end of the humor spectrum….thenposts like this that are basically the jokes we made in 5th grade when we first learned how to swear….but some just don’t mature….such is life.

The world needs people to make the fries at McDonalds….so I’m not mad at you.