Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

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Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Ozzy Stradlin »

…particularly, Jay Jay, apparently.

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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Charles Bukaki »

Funny, I'm reading Jay Jay's book right now, or at least trying to. The guy's an egotistical blowhard who thinks he's a mega talent. His stories are so outlandish and I'm guessing mostly bullshit. I've read enough of these kinds of books to know there's going to be some bullshit, and a lot of ego, but it's so over the top I keep losing interest and picking up something else, not sure if I'm ever going to bother to finish it.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Velvis »

Charles Bukaki wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 6:20 pm Funny, I'm reading Jay Jay's book right now, or at least trying to. The guy's an egotistical blowhard who thinks he's a mega talent. His stories are so outlandish and I'm guessing mostly bullshit. I've read enough of these kinds of books to know there's going to be some bullshit, and a lot of ego, but it's so over the top I keep losing interest and picking up something else, not sure if I'm ever going to bother to finish it.
I like TS and Jay Jay, but he does come off quite a bit like TS was mega-mega successful. And I get their two songs are huge, but he talks like the last 50 years they were around it was non stop sold out tours and million selling albums.
It took them 10 years to hit, and they imploded in like 3 years, disappeared for 12 and then barely toured.
They seemingly did good business with festivals the last 10 years of their career but that was like a couple/few times a year.

The other thing is Dee wrote all the music and lyrics.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

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KI$$ with more makeup, less costume and less talent, if thats possible
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by VinceVanLane »

Ozzy Stradlin wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 5:46 pm …particularly, Jay Jay, apparently.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/ge ... tid=Zxz2cZ
Considering some of the bands Tom Werman worked with, that's quite a statement.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by DrumminAway »

Used to play in a band called Hairmageddon. A club owner we worked with was friends with a bunch of rockstars and asked if we would do some TS songs with Eddie Ojeda, who was flying into Seattle to play with the Hollywood All-Stars. Dude was super nice but we were all astounded at how much of a hack player he was. Knew nothing about his gear or how to set it up, even though it had been rented to his exact specifications. Our guitarist had to show him how everything worked and basically play guitar tech all night.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Love_Industry »

DrumminAway wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 2:15 pm Used to play in a band called Hairmageddon. A club owner we worked with was friends with a bunch of rockstars and asked if we would do some TS songs with Eddie Ojeda, who was flying into Seattle to play with the Hollywood All-Stars. Dude was super nice but we were all astounded at how much of a hack player he was.
And Ojeda was the better guitarist in TS... but it doesn't mean much. TS must be the most successful band where everyone sucked at their instrument. Poison maybe but wasn't CC a better guitarist than any of the Twisted guys?
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Bono Nettencourt »

Love_Industry wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 3:12 pm
DrumminAway wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 2:15 pm Used to play in a band called Hairmageddon. A club owner we worked with was friends with a bunch of rockstars and asked if we would do some TS songs with Eddie Ojeda, who was flying into Seattle to play with the Hollywood All-Stars. Dude was super nice but we were all astounded at how much of a hack player he was.
And Ojeda was the better guitarist in TS... but it doesn't mean much. TS must be the most successful band where everyone sucked at their instrument. Poison maybe but wasn't CC a better guitarist than any of the Twisted guys?
Werman wasn't a big CC fan either... he recorded Open Up... in digital because he had to punch in so much to fix his leads.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by DonJuanDeMarco »

I just realized that CC, Mick and the Twisted Sister guys were usually rated as "worst" guitar players in the genre. Tom had the distinction of working with all 3!

You gotta give him credit. He didn't use outside musicians (like Beau Hill did) and he really did bring out the best in those guys. They had some big hits and we still listen to those records today!
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by FreddyFender »

Bono Nettencourt wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 4:55 pm
Love_Industry wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 3:12 pm
DrumminAway wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 2:15 pm Used to play in a band called Hairmageddon. A club owner we worked with was friends with a bunch of rockstars and asked if we would do some TS songs with Eddie Ojeda, who was flying into Seattle to play with the Hollywood All-Stars. Dude was super nice but we were all astounded at how much of a hack player he was.
And Ojeda was the better guitarist in TS... but it doesn't mean much. TS must be the most successful band where everyone sucked at their instrument. Poison maybe but wasn't CC a better guitarist than any of the Twisted guys?
Werman wasn't a big CC fan either... he recorded Open Up... in digital because he had to punch in so much to fix his leads.
CC is Pat fuckin' Metheny compared to those hacks.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Bono Nettencourt »

DonJuanDeMarco wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:36 am I just realized that CC, Mick and the Twisted Sister guys were usually rated as "worst" guitar players in the genre. Tom had the distinction of working with all 3!

You gotta give him credit. He didn't use outside musicians (like Beau Hill did) and he really did bring out the best in those guys. They had some big hits and we still listen to those records today!
No, he seemed to get the best he could from what he had to work with. Any outsiders were for percussion/accent. And he prided himself on being a good editor - hell, he even punched in for the great Jeff Beck on that Jan Hammer Live album.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by BritniTaiste »

Seems crazy as in the documentary they made it seem like they played 3+ hour sets 5-6 days a week for years. How could you not get better?
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Ozzy Stradlin »

Love_Industry wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 3:12 pm
DrumminAway wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 2:15 pm Used to play in a band called Hairmageddon. A club owner we worked with was friends with a bunch of rockstars and asked if we would do some TS songs with Eddie Ojeda, who was flying into Seattle to play with the Hollywood All-Stars. Dude was super nice but we were all astounded at how much of a hack player he was.
And Ojeda was the better guitarist in TS... but it doesn't mean much. TS must be the most successful band where everyone sucked at their instrument. Poison maybe but wasn't CC a better guitarist than any of the Twisted guys?
AJ Pero was a decent drummer…

…but Eddie “Fingers” Ojeda & Jay Jay “Thumbs” French make CC Deville sound like the king of the blues!
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by aznsquirt »

Bono Nettencourt wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 7:03 am
DonJuanDeMarco wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:36 am I just realized that CC, Mick and the Twisted Sister guys were usually rated as "worst" guitar players in the genre. Tom had the distinction of working with all 3!

You gotta give him credit. He didn't use outside musicians (like Beau Hill did) and he really did bring out the best in those guys. They had some big hits and we still listen to those records today!
No, he seemed to get the best he could from what he had to work with. Any outsiders were for percussion/accent. And he prided himself on being a good editor - hell, he even punched in for the great Jeff Beck on that Jan Hammer Live album.
You guys might want to check out the Greg Leon article posted above:
Greg Leon wrote:"Tommy invited me to the studio while recording Theater of Pain. And when I got there, it wasn't Nikki playing bass. I won't mention the guy's name who actually played bass, but it wasn't Nikki. I remember asking the guy, 'Hey, what are you doing here?' And he was like, 'Oh, I'm playing bass on the Mötley Crüe record.' It shocked me, but the producer instigated that as Nikki wasn't up to snuff.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Love_Industry »

aznsquirt wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 11:23 pm
You guys might want to check out the Greg Leon article posted above:
Greg Leon wrote:"Tommy invited me to the studio while recording Theater of Pain. And when I got there, it wasn't Nikki playing bass. I won't mention the guy's name who actually played bass, but it wasn't Nikki. I remember asking the guy, 'Hey, what are you doing here?' And he was like, 'Oh, I'm playing bass on the Mötley Crüe record.' It shocked me, but the producer instigated that as Nikki wasn't up to snuff.
Even if Greg Leon did meet a bassplayer in the studio recording ToP, it doesn't mean Mr. Bassplayer's recordings ended up on the album even if he believed it himself.
Bobby Rondinelli and Jimmy Bain played on Love at First Sting, then the official members came in and overdubbed their parts before the album was released so it would seem like a band effort. Rarebell was even out of the band and came back when the recording was all but completed.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by SchenkerFan »

"Eventually, French finished his parts – but there was a price to pay, literally. "

I see what he did there.

I love how these guys just keep throwing shit at each other.

And he's right, Ojeda and French were shit, some of the worst guitarists in the genre. They could play power chords and that was it. AJ Pero struck me as the best musician in the band. Maybe Dee because he wrote the songs.

But Werman shouldn't talk shit too much. He sure produced some paper thin sounding heavy metal albums.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

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AJ WAS A GREAT DRUMMER.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

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AJ WAS A GREAT DRUMMER.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Anthrax442 »

FreddyFender wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:38 am
CC is Pat fuckin' Metheny compared to those hacks.
This. You have to remember, C.C. on coke vs clean C.C. are two different players. Eddie and Jay Jay didn't have drugs to blame, and when they hit big, it was because they just happened to have a legendary frontman to drag them along.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by MetalSludgeCEO »

Velvis wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:57 pm
Charles Bukaki wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 6:20 pm Funny, I'm reading Jay Jay's book right now, or at least trying to. The guy's an egotistical blowhard who thinks he's a mega talent. His stories are so outlandish and I'm guessing mostly bullshit. I've read enough of these kinds of books to know there's going to be some bullshit, and a lot of ego, but it's so over the top I keep losing interest and picking up something else, not sure if I'm ever going to bother to finish it.
I like TS and Jay Jay, but he does come off quite a bit like TS was mega-mega successful. And I get their two songs are huge, but he talks like the last 50 years they were around it was non stop sold out tours and million selling albums.
It took them 10 years to hit, and they imploded in like 3 years, disappeared for 12 and then barely toured.
They seemingly did good business with festivals the last 10 years of their career but that was like a couple/few times a year.

The other thing is Dee wrote all the music and lyrics.

"""""""""""""""""They seemingly did good business with festivals"""""""""""""""""""""""""

And... for what it's worth... this whole "We played in front of 40,000 people at >insert festival here<" is bullsh!t.

What I mean by that, is it's bullsh!t for ANY band to think they're the reason those 40-50 or 80k people are there.

Of course TS sold some records, had some hits, but they are hardly the kind of band who drew massive numbers.

Tuff does GREAT business too when we're added to any festival. Whether we play 1st slot 2nd, 3rd or 4th... at 12:noon or 4:00pm, it's a big crowd for us.

Even those event's headliners, like at M3 for example... the Saturday might draw 8-10-12k people, and if Tom Keifer headlines... that is 5-6x the crowd he would perform in front of if he toured on his own... headlining a Theater with LA Guns as support... they're doing 750-1250 people... bottom line... those same 2 bands at M3, with 6-8 others, and suddenly they're crowd is 7,500 to 10,000 people by the headliner's slot.

Steel Panther plays in front of 20-30,000+ when they are at Download, or some of these huge festivals, but on their own... they would do theaters. Not a dis either, as those are HUGE numbers, and I am their biggest fan, but just trying to line up an analogy here for any TS diehards.

TS on their own in the last 30 years, wouldn't come close to packing an arena... fair to say? Nowhere... not in the US or abroad... maybe Tri-State area for a 1-off, but ongoing, city to city... Nope... they would have done 2,000-3,500 people at best if they toured the U.S..

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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Anthrax442 »

MetalSludgeCEO wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 8:33 am
TS on their own in the last 30 years, wouldn't come close to packing an arena... fair to say? Nowhere... not in the US or abroad... maybe Tri-State area for a 1-off, but ongoing, city to city... Nope... they would have done 2,000-3,500 people at best if they toured the U.S..

$tEvil
Exactly why they didn't tour/get booked. They wanted to get paid like an A level Arena act, and the promoters all were like, "Well, maybe you could do the C level minor league hockey circuit with enough promotion..."
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Love_Industry »

Anthrax442 wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 8:58 am
MetalSludgeCEO wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 8:33 am
TS on their own in the last 30 years, wouldn't come close to packing an arena... fair to say? Nowhere... not in the US or abroad... maybe Tri-State area for a 1-off, but ongoing, city to city... Nope... they would have done 2,000-3,500 people at best if they toured the U.S..

$tEvil
Exactly why they didn't tour/get booked. They wanted to get paid like an A level Arena act, and the promoters all were like, "Well, maybe you could do the C level minor league hockey circuit with enough promotion..."
At best being the operating word. They did those numbers at their peak in Europe, and not much more in the US as they had to cut the COaP tour short and that was their first and last arena attempt.

They sold a ton of one album and a couple of singles but my guess is that they had fewer real fans who genuinely liked the band than say Extreme or Quiet Riot. Maybe Saigon Kick or Autograph level, they also had hits...
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by aznsquirt »

Love_Industry wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:24 am
aznsquirt wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 11:23 pm
You guys might want to check out the Greg Leon article posted above:
Greg Leon wrote:"Tommy invited me to the studio while recording Theater of Pain. And when I got there, it wasn't Nikki playing bass. I won't mention the guy's name who actually played bass, but it wasn't Nikki. I remember asking the guy, 'Hey, what are you doing here?' And he was like, 'Oh, I'm playing bass on the Mötley Crüe record.' It shocked me, but the producer instigated that as Nikki wasn't up to snuff.
Even if Greg Leon did meet a bassplayer in the studio recording ToP, it doesn't mean Mr. Bassplayer's recordings ended up on the album even if he believed it himself.
Bobby Rondinelli and Jimmy Bain played on Love at First Sting, then the official members came in and overdubbed their parts before the album was released so it would seem like a band effort. Rarebell was even out of the band and came back when the recording was all but completed.
For sure, but I was replying to the couple of posters who were suggesting that Werman doesn't use studio/ghost players.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by JizzySynatra »

Granted, there were many incredible players that took part, but the TS guys were embarrassing on the Hear n' Aid sessions.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

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BritniTaiste wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 7:26 pm Seems crazy as in the documentary they made it seem like they played 3+ hour sets 5-6 days a week for years. How could you not get better?
True, but if you're playing checkers night after night you're just getting better at checkers.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by RicksPickWrangler »

Seems every interview with Werman he's shit talking someone who he got a check for working with.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by aznsquirt »

BTW another interesting thing about that Greg Leon interview, and maybe this makes me wonder about his "i saw a studio guy recording bass on theater of pain" comment, is that he basically makes it sound like he named Motley Crue. He literally says "I was tired of labels telling us they weren't interested in Dokken, so I contacted Tommy and put Mötley Crüe together."

The story has always been that Motley Crue was an old name Mick Mars had in his head from his White Horse days.

Of course. Greg could just be doing the thing where he doesn't claim to have named Motley Crue, but he definitely sounds a bit bitter and ready to exaggerate etc.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by aznsquirt »

RicksPickWrangler wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 1:02 pm Seems every interview with Werman he's shit talking someone who he got a check for working with.
I feel like his recent interviews have come from a string of interviews with musicians shit-talking him, and he's probably like fuck it lets sling it back.
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Re: Tom Werman: “Twisted Sister Were Among the Least Proficient Musicians…”

Post by Ozzy Stradlin »

RicksPickWrangler wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 1:02 pm Seems every interview with Werman he's shit talking someone who he got a check for working with.
Not everyone loves his job.
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