How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

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Ale
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How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Ale »

I have a band in Buenos Aires. We do kind of a good business, we have our faithful fans, we play good places and we tour a little, and I take care of everything, it is a band, we do photosessions together and stuff but think of me as a David Coverdale in Whitesnake (with 0.1/1000 of the success but a better voice nowadays) in the sense that if I'm there, the train keeps rolling and although people that come see us grow fond of the band, there's no one that it's not going to come if one of the members is not on stage -eg we have a very beautiful percussion player that when the guarantee is not enough or we have to travel far and there's no space, she stays home and it's ok.

My bass player is a GREAT player. Top notch. He can play everything, he has the perfect "fender precission" motown bass sound that I love etc etc. But he's a pain in the ass. And I don't even know how to explain it because the things he wants or complains about are stupid and crazy. Every rehearsal he wants to stops the songs for stupid reasons, he wants to rehearse four times a week (and it's no doable, and we don't need it, and my money would run out that way), he throws a stupid fit if a guest doens't come to five rehearsal just to sing a part of a stupid song live -once we didn't get to jam with a very well know musician of Argentina, just because of course he wouldn't come to the soundcheck, and to make the bass player happy I declined-
There's other examples but I would go on and on and it's not the idea.
But what he plays is perfect for my music.

I guess what I'm asking is: what's the ratio good player/good time playing together would you stand?
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Cindy Buzzedimisa »

As long as you can stand it, and it sounds like you can't stand it much longer. He can't be the only bassist around that can do it well. I'd start scouting. Does your sexy percussionist know anyone? He's acting this way because he thinks he's indispensable. Show him that's not the case.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by eddie lee roth »

How big a boy is your bass player?

I’ll come down there and whoop his ass.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by MetalSludgeCEO »

Jorge DeSaint became very complicated to deal with, especially those last 2-3 years.

And... he was already a nightmare for a while previous to that.

Of course he co-founded and started the band, played great guitar, looked the part, etc... but... he was (as Chip Z'Nuff says) "A questionable human."

Here is a classic incident, short version that we put up with, and all the while, yes... I wanted to BEAT the living shit out of him more times than I could count.

So we're recording our Atlantic Records debut, upwards of 6-figures was spent, in a month or so, 5 weeks to record.

On 1 of the days Jorge was recording, he and his then GF (later his wife and mother of his 2nd child) were fighting, but at a level that was at time unacceptable.

He is there with Producer Howard Benson, and cutting guitar tracks, but his GF keeps calling, saying she "NEEDS to talk to Jorge"... during a break or two, he returns the call, they argue on the phone for 10-15 minutes at a clip, etc... then... she tells him, "You need to come home now..." and we're like "Dude, F#@k her... you're cutting tracks for our debut record."

She gets so upset, he alleges, "She's going to kill herself if I don't go home right now!" Or course I immediately shoot back, "Good, let her kill herself, we're making a record, and you can go to the funeral next week." And this was my sense of humor on-going... which of course everyone laughed... but Jorge of course. lol.

Even with the band. Michael, I, and Howard talking to him, he didn't listen to us, and left the studio. She had several scenarios like this. Always fighting, he was always late, always drama.

The day was then half wasted, at $500.00 - $ 1,000.00 per day, plus Producer's time, Engineer's time, we had a runner there, the band, etc... in the end, I think Howard did edits and some other stuff, so Jorge drove home to resolve their crap. He came back hours later but he and she both, needed their asses kicked!

I can recall countless incidents like this!

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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by MetalSludgeCEO »

Ale wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:32 am I have a band in Buenos Aires. We do kind of a good business, we have our faithful fans, we play good places and we tour a little, and I take care of everything, it is a band, we do photosessions together and stuff but think of me as a David Coverdale in Whitesnake (with 0.1/1000 of the success but a better voice nowadays) in the sense that if I'm there, the train keeps rolling and although people that come see us grow fond of the band, there's no one that it's not going to come if one of the members is not on stage -eg we have a very beautiful percussion player that when the guarantee is not enough or we have to travel far and there's no space, she stays home and it's ok.

My bass player is a GREAT player. Top notch. He can play everything, he has the perfect "fender precission" motown bass sound that I love etc etc. But he's a pain in the ass. And I don't even know how to explain it because the things he wants or complains about are stupid and crazy. Every rehearsal he wants to stops the songs for stupid reasons, he wants to rehearse four times a week (and it's no doable, and we don't need it, and my money would run out that way), he throws a stupid fit if a guest doens't come to five rehearsal just to sing a part of a stupid song live -once we didn't get to jam with a very well know musician of Argentina, just because of course he wouldn't come to the soundcheck, and to make the bass player happy I declined-
There's other examples but I would go on and on and it's not the idea.
But what he plays is perfect for my music.

I guess what I'm asking is: what's the ratio good player/good time playing together would you stand?

"""""""""""""""""""But what he plays is perfect for my music."""""""""""""""""""""""

That's a Pro... or a Plus.

But... the "We have to rehearse 4x a week" is a bit crazy... I guess.

It depends on a few things....

How old is everyone in the band? 20-25, 55-30, 30+, 40+?

Tuff in the hey-day, in our early 20's, we rehearsed 3-4x a week, for a few years... but had nothing else to do... the band was our life.

Now... and for the last 20 years... we don't play gigs for months at a time, sometime, 4-5+ months, and before a run, we will rehearse 1x... maybe 2x... and if we've played within the previous month or two... we will not rehearse at all.

We've done gigs, where we couldn't rehearse... not time or chance... and literally walked on stage and played a show... many times. If you are all pros, or at a high enough caliber of musician... you don't need to rehearse that much... not close... especially when everyone has a life, a job, a wife, kids, bills to pay, etc...

99% of the crowd is there to have a good time, relax, etc... they're not there taking notes about if the drummer made a mistake, or the back-grounds were not perfect in harmony.

In truth... if he is anywhere between 35-50... he is 100% delusional and out of his mind. If he is 20-25, I get where maybe he's more serious about wanting to be good, or great, etc... but at the same time, if you're in a cover or tribute band... nobody cares. And the same applies, to most bands... at most levels.

Is anyone married, have kids, a real (other) job (for income), etc..?

Sounds like you do as noted, a lot for the band... and while he is a good player... his personality, and "I want it my way" attitude sucks.

Make a list... what are all the PROS and all the CONS of him being in the band.

In the end, it's a silly saying, but there are plenty of fish in the sea... including other band members.

People become complacent, and are afraid of change.

You might get a new guy, who plays just okay, and he's WAY more chill... but... is the type that will cancel the day of a show because he has to work things out with his GF? Or he has a headache? Or, holds out for more money?

It's a delicate balance...

$tEvil
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by MetalSludgeCEO »

Cindy Buzzedimisa wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:43 am As long as you can stand it, and it sounds like you can't stand it much longer. He can't be the only bassist around that can do it well. I'd start scouting. Does your sexy percussionist know anyone? He's acting this way because he thinks he's indispensable. Show him that's not the case.
All of this!

$tEvil
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Mister Freeze »

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I don't know. Two years tops?
skunklovestiger wrote: A comment like this needs a really useless piece of shit. Well maybe you are used to get fucked by your mother in the basement. It would be better if somebody just kills you useless asshole. Just killl yourself shithead.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by cowpins »

So, lets see. You pay him to rehearse and he wants to rehearse more? Um...? You're not his ATM machine. Grow some balls, call the shots, and if he's not happy he knows where the door is.
"bus problems come on man so boring we have our bus its awesome and we r watching judge judy on it right now tour is going great 14 more shows to go see you out there rockin peeps not you garbageman you stay home" - HueyRamone, 7/3/12
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Ale »

MetalSludgeCEO wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:56 am
Ale wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:32 am I have a band in Buenos Aires. We do kind of a good business, we have our faithful fans, we play good places and we tour a little, and I take care of everything, it is a band, we do photosessions together and stuff but think of me as a David Coverdale in Whitesnake (with 0.1/1000 of the success but a better voice nowadays) in the sense that if I'm there, the train keeps rolling and although people that come see us grow fond of the band, there's no one that it's not going to come if one of the members is not on stage -eg we have a very beautiful percussion player that when the guarantee is not enough or we have to travel far and there's no space, she stays home and it's ok.

My bass player is a GREAT player. Top notch. He can play everything, he has the perfect "fender precission" motown bass sound that I love etc etc. But he's a pain in the ass. And I don't even know how to explain it because the things he wants or complains about are stupid and crazy. Every rehearsal he wants to stops the songs for stupid reasons, he wants to rehearse four times a week (and it's no doable, and we don't need it, and my money would run out that way), he throws a stupid fit if a guest doens't come to five rehearsal just to sing a part of a stupid song live -once we didn't get to jam with a very well know musician of Argentina, just because of course he wouldn't come to the soundcheck, and to make the bass player happy I declined-
There's other examples but I would go on and on and it's not the idea.
But what he plays is perfect for my music.

I guess what I'm asking is: what's the ratio good player/good time playing together would you stand?

"""""""""""""""""""But what he plays is perfect for my music."""""""""""""""""""""""

That's a Pro... or a Plus.

But... the "We have to rehearse 4x a week" is a bit crazy... I guess.

It depends on a few things....

How old is everyone in the band? 20-25, 55-30, 30+, 40+?

Tuff in the hey-day, in our early 20's, we rehearsed 3-4x a week, for a few years... but had nothing else to do... the band was our life.

Now... and for the last 20 years... we don't play gigs for months at a time, sometime, 4-5+ months, and before a run, we will rehearse 1x... maybe 2x... and if we've played within the previous month or two... we will not rehearse at all.

We've done gigs, where we couldn't rehearse... not time or chance... and literally walked on stage and played a show... many times. If you are all pros, or at a high enough caliber of musician... you don't need to rehearse that much... not close... especially when everyone has a life, a job, a wife, kids, bills to pay, etc...

99% of the crowd is there to have a good time, relax, etc... they're not there taking notes about if the drummer made a mistake, or the back-grounds were not perfect in harmony.

In truth... if he is anywhere between 35-50... he is 100% delusional and out of his mind. If he is 20-25, I get where maybe he's more serious about wanting to be good, or great, etc... but at the same time, if you're in a cover or tribute band... nobody cares. And the same applies, to most bands... at most levels.

Is anyone married, have kids, a real (other) job (for income), etc..?

Sounds like you do as noted, a lot for the band... and while he is a good player... his personality, and "I want it my way" attitude sucks.

Make a list... what are all the PROS and all the CONS of him being in the band.

In the end, it's a silly saying, but there are plenty of fish in the sea... including other band members.

People become complacent, and are afraid of change.

You might get a new guy, who plays just okay, and he's WAY more chill... but... is the type that will cancel the day of a show because he has to work things out with his GF? Or he has a headache? Or, holds out for more money?

It's a delicate balance...

$tEvil
Great to read you!
I'm going to make it short.

---- How old is everyone in the band? 20-25, 55-30, 30+---
I'm 41, the bass player is 40. We are not young at all and at least "I" know what we do and where can we go, don't have dreams of being Bruce Springsteen or anything so...

---- Is anyone married, have kids, a real (other) job (for income), etc..?

Just our guitar player is married with a kid and he's the most easy going of all, no bullshit attitude he knows he has it "easy" (I mean he just shows up and play, we play fairly nice places with great sound systems, he goes out of the house, eats and drinks for free and he comes home with a little money, so he's on "my side")
All the others are single with no kids, and of course all of us (we are in Argentina, only the people with songs on the radio make a living just playing in a band) have side jobs or may I say real jobs 9 to 5.

----Sounds like you do as noted, a lot for the band... and while he is a good player... his personality, and "I want it my way" attitude sucks.

You hit the nail on the head on that one. He knows or at least he thinks I'm not going to let him go at all and that why he has his position. Mea culpa, I do treat them VERY WELL for the level we are, I mean there were shows where I did all the booking, the promotion, the selling tickets to fans and friends and he got paid only to play music and I took a stumble, but that's life (and there weren't many times like that)
And the thing that I'm almost ashamed to tell people is that his demands doesn't make sense. Is not about the money, or about the place we play or even about the songs I write.
He's a pain in the ass for the most stupid things and he thinks he has a point. So me and the other guitar player have usually two options: say "yes yes" and go and do it the way it is supposed to or try to reach a point with him and that cost me time money and, most important, peace of mind.

The thing is that he is/was a kind of "studio" player and he still thinks we are going to "hit it big" and he doesn't know a thing about the music enviroment in Argentina (or the world). So we sometimes found ourselves (all of my doing with the manager, of course) playing "big" places or important places and maybe he thinks the next there will be Clive Davis knocking at the door of all 40 years olds with a million dollar contract. Clueless.
So, here this out, the other day he throw a fit cause in his mind, WE ALL HAVE TO PLAY WITH CLICK TRACKS, I mean not the drummer (he always do) not him (he can if he wants it) but ALL THE BAND. And we couldn't make him understand that a) is imposible and not practical and we are not Motley Crue and b) it would be very expensive and we can't afford it and also we don't aaaalways play big places or importante places, we do some bars too. Pointless.

Just another example: two months ago a bar (very chic, very beautiful but small, for 80 people) ask us to play, paid was just ok but I agreed to do it acoustic, as to go with guitars the bass plugged to the console and a small kit. The bar only had one floor monitor so it was the most practical thing to do.
In his defense, we didn't do any promotion I kind of "hid" the show in my social media but the owner was really happy cause all the 72 tickets sold out in three days
(look out Taylor Swift!) so now he treated the show as an "important" show so we had to pay for another sound system, more monitors and lines for his in ears etc etc. you get the drift.
At the end of the show, instead of taking home, let's say in dollars, 180 dollars each one, we took 40 dollars each one. Again ,mea culpa about not being stronger in my beliefs.


---In the end, it's a silly saying, but there are plenty of fish in the sea... including other band members.

-----People become complacent, and are afraid of change. -----

You got that right. I'm off to make a list of pro and cons. Thanks CEO!
Last edited by Ale on Thu Nov 23, 2023 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Ale »

cowpins wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:32 pm So, lets see. You pay him to rehearse and he wants to rehearse more? Um...? You're not his ATM machine. Grow some balls, call the shots, and if he's not happy he knows where the door is.
No one in the band pays the rehearsal room but me, but it is true that I only pay the shows, they rehearse "for free". It's not about money for him, he's just a ball breaker ha
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by GreatWhiteSnake »

Fire him now. Bass players grow on trees. Pffft...
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by FreddyFender »

I’ve worked with that kinda guy plenty of times over the years.

Weve always fired that guy.

No one gives a shit about the bass player, man….. And I’m a bass player. Hire someone with a tenth of the talent but the right attitude.

You like Motown? Have the next guy put some flats on his bass.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by MetalSludgeCEO »

Ale wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:51 am
MetalSludgeCEO wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:56 am
Ale wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:32 am I have a band in Buenos Aires. We do kind of a good business, we have our faithful fans, we play good places and we tour a little, and I take care of everything, it is a band, we do photosessions together and stuff but think of me as a David Coverdale in Whitesnake (with 0.1/1000 of the success but a better voice nowadays) in the sense that if I'm there, the train keeps rolling and although people that come see us grow fond of the band, there's no one that it's not going to come if one of the members is not on stage -eg we have a very beautiful percussion player that when the guarantee is not enough or we have to travel far and there's no space, she stays home and it's ok.

My bass player is a GREAT player. Top notch. He can play everything, he has the perfect "fender precission" motown bass sound that I love etc etc. But he's a pain in the ass. And I don't even know how to explain it because the things he wants or complains about are stupid and crazy. Every rehearsal he wants to stops the songs for stupid reasons, he wants to rehearse four times a week (and it's no doable, and we don't need it, and my money would run out that way), he throws a stupid fit if a guest doens't come to five rehearsal just to sing a part of a stupid song live -once we didn't get to jam with a very well know musician of Argentina, just because of course he wouldn't come to the soundcheck, and to make the bass player happy I declined-
There's other examples but I would go on and on and it's not the idea.
But what he plays is perfect for my music.

I guess what I'm asking is: what's the ratio good player/good time playing together would you stand?

"""""""""""""""""""But what he plays is perfect for my music."""""""""""""""""""""""

That's a Pro... or a Plus.

But... the "We have to rehearse 4x a week" is a bit crazy... I guess.

It depends on a few things....

How old is everyone in the band? 20-25, 55-30, 30+, 40+?

Tuff in the hey-day, in our early 20's, we rehearsed 3-4x a week, for a few years... but had nothing else to do... the band was our life.

Now... and for the last 20 years... we don't play gigs for months at a time, sometime, 4-5+ months, and before a run, we will rehearse 1x... maybe 2x... and if we've played within the previous month or two... we will not rehearse at all.

We've done gigs, where we couldn't rehearse... not time or chance... and literally walked on stage and played a show... many times. If you are all pros, or at a high enough caliber of musician... you don't need to rehearse that much... not close... especially when everyone has a life, a job, a wife, kids, bills to pay, etc...

99% of the crowd is there to have a good time, relax, etc... they're not there taking notes about if the drummer made a mistake, or the back-grounds were not perfect in harmony.

In truth... if he is anywhere between 35-50... he is 100% delusional and out of his mind. If he is 20-25, I get where maybe he's more serious about wanting to be good, or great, etc... but at the same time, if you're in a cover or tribute band... nobody cares. And the same applies, to most bands... at most levels.

Is anyone married, have kids, a real (other) job (for income), etc..?

Sounds like you do as noted, a lot for the band... and while he is a good player... his personality, and "I want it my way" attitude sucks.

Make a list... what are all the PROS and all the CONS of him being in the band.

In the end, it's a silly saying, but there are plenty of fish in the sea... including other band members.

People become complacent, and are afraid of change.

You might get a new guy, who plays just okay, and he's WAY more chill... but... is the type that will cancel the day of a show because he has to work things out with his GF? Or he has a headache? Or, holds out for more money?

It's a delicate balance...

$tEvil
Great to read you!
I'm going to make it short.

---- How old is everyone in the band? 20-25, 55-30, 30+---
I'm 41, the bass player is 40. We are not young at all and at least "I" know what we do and where can we go, don't have dreams of being Bruce Springsteen or anything so...

---- Is anyone married, have kids, a real (other) job (for income), etc..?

Just our guitar player is married with a kid and he's the most easy going of all, no bullshit attitude he knows he has it "easy" (I mean he just shows up and play, we play fairly nice places with great sound systems, he goes out of the house, eats and drinks for free and he comes home with a little money, so he's on "my side")
All the others are single with no kids, and of course all of us (we are in Argentina, only the people with songs on the radio make a living just playing in a band) have side jobs or may I say real jobs 9 to 5.

----Sounds like you do as noted, a lot for the band... and while he is a good player... his personality, and "I want it my way" attitude sucks.

You hit the nail on the head on that one. He knows or at least he thinks I'm not going to let him go at all and that why he has his position. Mea culpa, I do treat them VERY WELL for the level we are, I mean there were shows where I did all the booking, the promotion, the selling tickets to fans and friends and he got paid only to play music and I took a stumble, but that's life (and there weren't many times like that)
And the thing that I'm almost ashamed to tell people is that his demands doesn't make sense. Is not about the money, or about the place we play or even about the songs I write.
He's a pain in the ass for the most stupid things and he thinks he has a point. So me and the other guitar player have usually two options: say "yes yes" and go and do it the way it is supposed to or try to reach a point with him and that cost me time money and, most important, peace of mind.

The thing is that he is/was a kind of "studio" player and he still thinks we are going to "hit it big" and he doesn't know a thing about the music enviroment in Argentina (or the world). So we sometimes found ourselves (all of my doing with the manager, of course) playing "big" places or important places and maybe he thinks the next there will be Clive Davis knocking at the door of all 40 years olds with a million dollar contract. Clueless.
So, here this out, the other day he throw a fit cause in his mind, WE ALL HAVE TO PLAY WITH CLICK TRACKS, I mean not the drummer (he always do) not him (he can if he wants it) but ALL THE BAND. And we couldn't make him understand that a) is imposible and not practical and we are not Motley Crue and b) it would be very expensive and we can't afford it and also we don't aaaalways play big places or importante places, we do some bars too. Pointless.

Just another example: two months ago a bar (very chic, very beautiful but small, for 80 people) ask us to play, paid was just ok but I agreed to do it acoustic, as to go with guitars the bass plugged to the console and a small kit. The bar only had one floor monitor so it was the most practical thing to do.
In his defense, we didn't do any promotion I kind of "hid" the show in my social media but the owner was really happy cause all the 72 tickets sold out in three days
(look out Taylor Swift!) so now he treated the show as an "important" show so we had to pay for another sound system, more monitors and lines for his in ears etc etc. you get the drift.
At the end of the show, instead of taking home, let's say in dollars, 180 dollars each one, we took 40 dollars each one. Again ,mea culpa about not being stronger in my beliefs.


---In the end, it's a silly saying, but there are plenty of fish in the sea... including other band members.

-----People become complacent, and are afraid of change. -----

You got that right. I'm off to make a list of pro and cons. Thanks CEO!

Just read your reply...

My thoughts now, that you have given a bit more info and an inside look at some things, etc...

Simply put... "Fuck this guy!"

Stop catering to him... tell him "This is the way it is, ALL of us (3) agree, you're not in the majority... don't like it... too bad!"

If he quits... spend the time and energy to find a better "team player" and move forward.

You said in the original post how "great he plays the parts", etc... but now also admit, and know... you're all north of 40 and hitting it "big" is NEVER going to happen.

And that includes the same outcome... regardless of WHO is playing bass or how good the bassist's performance is.

The last example of him wanting to bring in extra PA, in-ear monitors, etc... to play for 72 people and spend 50% of the profit for it... is beyond stupid.

Also... out of those 72 people who came, less than 5 or 10 tops would have been able to tell the difference.

You need to grow some balls, put your foot down, and stop letting this guy dictate all... especially when the others and you all think alike, and he's the odd man out!

$tEvil
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Ozzy Stradlin »

You had me at, “Every rehearsal he wants to stops the songs for stupid reasons…”

You’ll be amazed at how much more you can get accomplished in a shorter amount of time by finding someone who’s easier to work with & won’t waste precious rehearsal time - even if perhaps he/she isn’t quite as “skilled”, musically.

You’ll also be amazed at how much more fun you’ll have making music (which is supposed to be part of the deal), and how much less it seems like “work.”

I’d boot him.

Continue rehearsing with the band without him, and put the word out that you’re looking for a replacement. You’ll find the right one.

Good luck.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by BernieTaupson »

It’s just a fuckin bass player.
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Olivia Sophia
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Olivia Sophia »

He has OCD.

Not your problem.
jens
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by jens »

Ale wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:51 am At the end of the show, instead of taking home, let's say in dollars, 180 dollars each one, we took 40 dollars each one. Again ,mea culpa about not being stronger in my beliefs.
This should be the straw that broke the bassist's back. Instead of some nice pocket you all left with a tip, he fucks over the whole band over nothing. Good riddance.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Ale »

Thanks for all the replies. I kinda agree with all of you. I try to mantain the same band as long as I can -we are the same 5 -or 6- people since 2016, so...
Our music is very groovy (it's rock, but we are rooted in soul and classic r&b) and he really is a great bassist, and it's not that easy to find someone like that.
Think of a Neil Murray one in the early Whitesnake records and his basslines and then the one who played in the 87 album in which the bass is non existent.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by whammybar »

99% of the audience couldn't tell the difference between him and an adequate bassist. Cut him loose, life's too short to put up with his issues.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by MetalSludgeCEO »

Ale wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:23 am Thanks for all the replies. I kinda agree with all of you. I try to mantain the same band as long as I can -we are the same 5 -or 6- people since 2016, so...
Our music is very groovy (it's rock, but we are rooted in soul and classic r&b) and he really is a great bassist, and it's not that easy to find someone like that.
Think of a Neil Murray one in the early Whitesnake records and his basslines and then the one who played in the 87 album in which the bass is non existent.
Your reply screams "I can't let him go" but hey... it's your band, your money, your stress level.

Also note, you came and asked... and if my eyes are correct, EVERYONE says time to rinse him out of the mix.

This is like a girlfriend telling all her friends her BF beats her up, doesn't work, she pays all the bills and he's also an ass to her on-going, but she won't leave him.

Enjoy getting walked on...

$tEvil
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Velvis »

MetalSludgeCEO wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:47 am Jorge DeSaint became very complicated to deal with, especially those last 2-3 years.

And... he was already a nightmare for a while previous to that.

Of course he co-founded and started the band, played great guitar, looked the part, etc... but... he was (as Chip Z'Nuff says) "A questionable human."

Here is a classic incident, short version that we put up with, and all the while, yes... I wanted to BEAT the living shit out of him more times than I could count.

So we're recording our Atlantic Records debut, upwards of 6-figures was spent, in a month or so, 5 weeks to record.

On 1 of the days Jorge was recording, he and his then GF (later his wife and mother of his 2nd child) were fighting, but at a level that was at time unacceptable.

He is there with Producer Howard Benson, and cutting guitar tracks, but his GF keeps calling, saying she "NEEDS to talk to Jorge"... during a break or two, he returns the call, they argue on the phone for 10-15 minutes at a clip, etc... then... she tells him, "You need to come home now..." and we're like "Dude, F#@k her... you're cutting tracks for our debut record."

She gets so upset, he alleges, "She's going to kill herself if I don't go home right now!" Or course I immediately shoot back, "Good, let her kill herself, we're making a record, and you can go to the funeral next week." And this was my sense of humor on-going... which of course everyone laughed... but Jorge of course. lol.

Even with the band. Michael, I, and Howard talking to him, he didn't listen to us, and left the studio. She had several scenarios like this. Always fighting, he was always late, always drama.

The day was then half wasted, at $500.00 - $ 1,000.00 per day, plus Producer's time, Engineer's time, we had a runner there, the band, etc... in the end, I think Howard did edits and some other stuff, so Jorge drove home to resolve their crap. He came back hours later but he and she both, needed their asses kicked!

I can recall countless incidents like this!

$tEvil
So I assume TUFF never took this opportunity to write their "Beth."
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Ale »

MetalSludgeCEO wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:57 am
Ale wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:23 am Thanks for all the replies. I kinda agree with all of you. I try to mantain the same band as long as I can -we are the same 5 -or 6- people since 2016, so...
Our music is very groovy (it's rock, but we are rooted in soul and classic r&b) and he really is a great bassist, and it's not that easy to find someone like that.
Think of a Neil Murray one in the early Whitesnake records and his basslines and then the one who played in the 87 album in which the bass is non existent.
Your reply screams "I can't let him go" but hey... it's your band, your money, your stress level.

Also note, you came and asked... and if my eyes are correct, EVERYONE says time to rinse him out of the mix.

This is like a girlfriend telling all her friends her BF beats her up, doesn't work, she pays all the bills and he's also an ass to her on-going, but she won't leave him.

Enjoy getting walked on...

$tEvil
I will not be walked on!!
Jokin aside, I get what you're saying and you're right. Tomorrow afternoon we will have a band meeeting (I hate band meetings, 90 per cent of the times are useless) and I will say "either you get with us or there's the door".
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Gibsonite »

Ale wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:06 pm
MetalSludgeCEO wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:57 am
Ale wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:23 am Thanks for all the replies. I kinda agree with all of you. I try to mantain the same band as long as I can -we are the same 5 -or 6- people since 2016, so...
Our music is very groovy (it's rock, but we are rooted in soul and classic r&b) and he really is a great bassist, and it's not that easy to find someone like that.
Think of a Neil Murray one in the early Whitesnake records and his basslines and then the one who played in the 87 album in which the bass is non existent.
Your reply screams "I can't let him go" but hey... it's your band, your money, your stress level.

Also note, you came and asked... and if my eyes are correct, EVERYONE says time to rinse him out of the mix.

This is like a girlfriend telling all her friends her BF beats her up, doesn't work, she pays all the bills and he's also an ass to her on-going, but she won't leave him.

Enjoy getting walked on...

$tEvil
I will not be walked on!!
Jokin aside, I get what you're saying and you're right. Tomorrow afternoon we will have a band meeeting (I hate band meetings, 90 per cent of the times are useless) and I will say "either you get with us or there's the door".
He'll probably say he will try to be a better team player, then sulk & pout and bring everyone down for the next couple of months until he's back to the way he was at the start. Have a band meeting without him, make sure everyone's in agreeance, then give him his walking papers. Life's too short and at this point in your 40's, its not worth the hassle to put up with assholes.
Last edited by Gibsonite on Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by MetalSludgeCEO »

Ale wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:06 pm
MetalSludgeCEO wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:57 am
Ale wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:23 am Thanks for all the replies. I kinda agree with all of you. I try to mantain the same band as long as I can -we are the same 5 -or 6- people since 2016, so...
Our music is very groovy (it's rock, but we are rooted in soul and classic r&b) and he really is a great bassist, and it's not that easy to find someone like that.
Think of a Neil Murray one in the early Whitesnake records and his basslines and then the one who played in the 87 album in which the bass is non existent.
Your reply screams "I can't let him go" but hey... it's your band, your money, your stress level.

Also note, you came and asked... and if my eyes are correct, EVERYONE says time to rinse him out of the mix.

This is like a girlfriend telling all her friends her BF beats her up, doesn't work, she pays all the bills and he's also an ass to her on-going, but she won't leave him.

Enjoy getting walked on...

$tEvil
I will not be walked on!!
Jokin aside, I get what you're saying and you're right. Tomorrow afternoon we will have a band meeeting (I hate band meetings, 90 per cent of the times are useless) and I will say "either you get with us or there's the door".

""""""""""""""""""""" we will have a band meeeting (I hate band meetings, 90 per cent of the times are useless)""""""""""""""""""""""

I see...

I personally love band meetings... Tuff had plenty of meetings, and talked openly about our goals and plans.

I also had many of these with Vains of Jenna, as their manager, and of course, most of the 4 (much younger than I) didn't like these.

They just wanted to "Rock", blah, blah, blah...

You don't go forward by just wanting to "Rock" or jamming.

There has to be a plan of action, with anything... whether you are a musician, a band, an athlete, or a company selling burgers, shoes or bottled water.

Sounds like you need a more experienced "leader" in the band, above and beyond a problem bassist.

Someone has to be the leader... or... you will be faced with more of this.

Bands who have leaders... Metallica (Lars), Guns N' Roses (Axl) and Motley Crue (Nikki), an then example of a bigger band who does not have a true leader, is Ratt.

And Ratt used to be as big, or bigger than all of these bands.

L.A. Guns and Great White are also bands, who for much of their career, never had a true leader... or... none of those shenanigans would have happened.

Does anything that any member could leave ANY of those above mentioned bands and start a 2nd version calling it their own? Answer is a simple, No.

$tEvil
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by cowpins »

Ale wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:06 pm Tomorrow afternoon we will have a band meeeting (I hate band meetings, 90 per cent of the times are useless) and I will say "either you get with us or there's the door".
So is he still your bass player or did the band choose him over you?
"bus problems come on man so boring we have our bus its awesome and we r watching judge judy on it right now tour is going great 14 more shows to go see you out there rockin peeps not you garbageman you stay home" - HueyRamone, 7/3/12
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Ziggy Sawdust »

Well the stones booted Brian Jones in 1969 even though he made their records more interesting, but I believe that was after Keith stole his girlfriend.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Ziggy Sawdust »

Marc Ford was booted from the black Crowes and they were the same again, but according to rich Robinson he was playing a different song to him he was so wasted.
Hell'sHungryChild wrote:
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by BernieTaupson »

cowpins wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2023 2:58 pm
Ale wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:06 pm Tomorrow afternoon we will have a band meeeting (I hate band meetings, 90 per cent of the times are useless) and I will say "either you get with us or there's the door".
So is he still your bass player or did the band choose him over you?

Video of the band meeting :

https://youtu.be/M81RjY9kuXw?si=hW3WK-OKYie_PxCi

Spoiler : it didn’t go well.
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by cowpins »

, and Wilco was never the same after Jay Bennett.
"bus problems come on man so boring we have our bus its awesome and we r watching judge judy on it right now tour is going great 14 more shows to go see you out there rockin peeps not you garbageman you stay home" - HueyRamone, 7/3/12
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Re: How long and much do you keep an unbearable good musician?

Post by Ale »

cowpins wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2023 2:58 pm
Ale wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:06 pm Tomorrow afternoon we will have a band meeeting (I hate band meetings, 90 per cent of the times are useless) and I will say "either you get with us or there's the door".
So is he still your bass player or did the band choose him over you?
He's still the bass player for now. We had the band meeting, he said the same stupid things he always say but from now on, it's my way or he's gone. He agreed to continue playing tho he isn't in agreement, his words were "Maybe I have better musical standards that the rest of you" (a guy who never in his life booked a show or had a band with any kind of following)

Now we have two casino shows that pay VERY WELL and they're easy to do (no rehearsing a new show or anything, half originals/half covers and we're good to go) so we are doing them and then we have two months without shows (end of February we have a BIG show, the biggest we've ever done as a production and selling of the tickets and etc, so we have to work for that, let's hope with the same band)
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