Metal Sludge Gossip Board

Earl Skakel wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 8:51 am I know I'm in the minority on this one but I would have liked one more album with Mark St John just too see what he could do as I love the guitar sound on Animalize. I mean how bad could he have been if Grover Jackson himself brought him to KISS in the first place?

Mark was the wrong choice. He didn't listen to KISS, he listened to jazz fusion. He was replaced twice on "Animalize", because he wasn't fitting in. Bruce should have been the one who replaced Vinnie or better yet to replace Ace originally.

Grover Jackson just provided Paul with a list of guitarists. Hiring Mark was Paul's mistake. Gene was too busy making a movie.

Bono Nettencourt wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 11:46 am He didn't have any writing credits and they had to bring Kulick in to finish a couple of the songs so I wonder how instrumental he really was in the recording of that album. He also later said that the arthuritis was a coverup because he pretty much left because they couldn't stand him and vv.

The Reiter's Syndrome was real. Paul wanting to get rid of him was real. They gave him a chance at three shows and knew that he was out and Bruce was in.

I met him once. My guess it was pre-meth days. He was at a fan run KISS convention. He was only there for the paycheck. Looked like he would have rather been any place else.

Earl Skakel wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 4:42 pm

Bono Nettencourt wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 11:46 am He didn't have any writing credits and they had to bring Kulick in to finish a couple of the songs so I wonder how instrumental he really was in the recording of that album. He also later said that the arthuritis was a coverup because he pretty much left because they couldn't stand him and vv.

I would just be more curious to see what a follow up album with him would have sounded like. It's hard to know who to believe but most of that album was recorded with him and a sound engineer with Paul phoning in directions and Gene off filming Miami Vice and Runaway so I'm sure he was like a lost dog in the pound not knowing what they truly wanted. I thought Kulick only came in for Lonely Is The Hunter? The Poughkeepsie Live Off The Soundboard with St. John on it sounds pretty good as I thought live anyway him and Carr were more inline with each other than Carr and Vincent.

Actually, Paul and Mark were in one studio in NYC while Gene was with Bruce in another studio.

Paul would tell Mark what he wanted to hear, giving him examples from other bands and Mark wouldn't know the songs Paul was mentioning.

IIRC, Eric Carr wasn't fond of him at all.

Bruce was asked to play the solo on "Lonely Is The Hunter" and Bruce also played the outro part on "Murder In High Heels".

risingfarce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:19 am

Bono Nettencourt wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 11:46 am He didn't have any writing credits and they had to bring Kulick in to finish a couple of the songs so I wonder how instrumental he really was in the recording of that album. He also later said that the arthuritis was a coverup because he pretty much left because they couldn't stand him and vv.

The Reiter's Syndrome was real. Paul wanting to get rid of him was real. They gave him a chance at three shows and knew that he was out and Bruce was in.

I met him once. My guess it was pre-meth days. He was at a fan run KISS convention. He was only there for the paycheck. Looked like he would have rather been any place else.

was that the convention in atlanta? i was there...my band played the night before and mark seemed very bitter...jason from dangerous toys was there as well and couldn't have been a nicer guy...d.m.

Supersuckers with Mike "Murderburger" Musberger on drums.

I would have liked a couple more albums with Ian Gillan fronting Sabbath.

We wouldn't've gotten the DP MK II reunion then... much as I enjoyed Born Again, I enjoyed thar more.

Gibsonite wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:49 pm I'm one of probably about 3 ppl who wish RHCP had done another album with Dave Navarro. I liked the Jane's/Peppers hybrid style with the heavier guitars. Call me crazy I guess

Same

Manowar with Ross the Boss and Donnie Hamzik. They went from brilliant metal albums like Fighting the World and Kings of Metal, to pretentious crap like Triumph of Steel and Gods of War after Ross left.

diablomozart wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:39 am

risingfarce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:19 am

Bono Nettencourt wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 11:46 am He didn't have any writing credits and they had to bring Kulick in to finish a couple of the songs so I wonder how instrumental he really was in the recording of that album. He also later said that the arthuritis was a coverup because he pretty much left because they couldn't stand him and vv.

The Reiter's Syndrome was real. Paul wanting to get rid of him was real. They gave him a chance at three shows and knew that he was out and Bruce was in.

I met him once. My guess it was pre-meth days. He was at a fan run KISS convention. He was only there for the paycheck. Looked like he would have rather been any place else.

was that the convention in atlanta? i was there...my band played the night before and mark seemed very bitter...jason from dangerous toys was there as well and couldn't have been a nicer guy...d.m.

That KISS fan run convention was in Swansea, MA.

Here's the Q&A. The audio is not good, so it's difficult to hear everything clearly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ig4kFVfBI

risingfarce wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:45 am

diablomozart wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:39 am

risingfarce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:19 am

The Reiter's Syndrome was real. Paul wanting to get rid of him was real. They gave him a chance at three shows and knew that he was out and Bruce was in.

I met him once. My guess it was pre-meth days. He was at a fan run KISS convention. He was only there for the paycheck. Looked like he would have rather been any place else.

was that the convention in atlanta? i was there...my band played the night before and mark seemed very bitter...jason from dangerous toys was there as well and couldn't have been a nicer guy...d.m.

That KISS fan run convention was in Swansea, MA.

Here's the Q&A. The audio is not good, so it's difficult to hear everything clearly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ig4kFVfBI

mark must have made the rounds that year lol...he didn't survive too long after that did he? coupla years maybe?...d.m.

AlexVonHaig wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 3:42 am Black Sabbath with Ian Gillan. As if any reunion including Blackmore would last longer than a cup of coffee.

Enuff Znuff with Monaco. I guess you need to get along with junkies to remain in a band

Monaco with EZN was the only time I've ever seen Monaco seem cool. I don't know if getting kicked out killed his confidence, or he was having other issues that led to his getting kicked out, or what, but he made them interesting to me. Without him, I just don't care about the Chip Z'Nuff show.

Sleek wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:10 pm

skatexedge wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:49 pm

I saw that lineup of Whitesnake live at Day On The Green 1987 and they kicked ass! I was very impressed! An album with them recorded after that tour also would have been killer!

I was there. I have no memory of Whitesnake from that day lol.

I remember a little more from when I saw them om Slide it In, but not much. They were pretty generic, even if they were high-performing generic.

I'm probably one of the bigger Whitesnake fans on the board, and I think there's a reason that lineup never recorded an album. I'm just not sure what songs you're getting out of that guitar tandem. I love Starkers in Tokyo and Vivian did some nice stuff in Dio, so no disrespect to either, but I think they're both better as sidemen.

Gibsonite wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:49 pm I'm one of probably about 3 ppl who wish RHCP had done another album with Dave Navarro. I liked the Jane's/Peppers hybrid style with the heavier guitars. Call me crazy I guess

I'd have to listen to that album again, but from what I remember at the time, I fucking HATED it. Aeroplane and their cover of Love Rollercoaster are great, though.

Haven't tried listening to it since the 90s.

roxxxtar wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:11 am Poison with Blues Saraceno.
I think Crack A Smile is the best thing Poison ever recorded.

I personally never liked that record but I love Native Tongue. I actually think it's the best thing Richie Kotzen ever recorded. His best album at least. He's got a ton of great songs but there are usually only 1 or 2 songs per album that I really love. That Poison record has a ton of good songs on it.

diablomozart wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:41 am

risingfarce wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:45 am

diablomozart wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:39 am

was that the convention in atlanta? i was there...my band played the night before and mark seemed very bitter...jason from dangerous toys was there as well and couldn't have been a nicer guy...d.m.

That KISS fan run convention was in Swansea, MA.

Here's the Q&A. The audio is not good, so it's difficult to hear everything clearly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ig4kFVfBI

mark must have made the rounds that year lol...he didn't survive too long after that did he? coupla years maybe?...d.m.

That convention was on September 26, 1999. He died on April 5, 2007 at the age of 51.

Rest In Sleaze era CrashDiet (yes, fully aware Dave offed himself shortly after that album.

I'd second the original lineup of Kingdom Come. Really liked the second album.

Would have liked another album from Roxy Blue

risingfarce wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:14 am

diablomozart wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:41 am

risingfarce wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:45 am

That KISS fan run convention was in Swansea, MA.

Here's the Q&A. The audio is not good, so it's difficult to hear everything clearly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_ig4kFVfBI

mark must have made the rounds that year lol...he didn't survive too long after that did he? coupla years maybe?...d.m.

That convention was on September 26, 1999. He died on April 5, 2007 at the age of 51.

ah different year...the convention i played at was 2004 in atlanta, some hotel in norcross...put on by some group called kreatures of the south...i had to look it up feb 14 2004...but yeah even then mark seemed like he wanted to literally be anywhere else...d.m.

aznsquirt wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:39 am Cherone in VH (yes im sure I'm the only one, but I've always suspected another album with him in the band could've been really good).

They made the mistake of recording an album without touring first.
VH3 and the subsequent Tour …Eddie was absolutely on fire ….VH3 has some of Eddie’s finest guitar playing .

risingfarce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:12 am

Earl Skakel wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 8:51 am I know I'm in the minority on this one but I would have liked one more album with Mark St John just too see what he could do as I love the guitar sound on Animalize. I mean how bad could he have been if Grover Jackson himself brought him to KISS in the first place?

Mark was the wrong choice. He didn't listen to KISS, he listened to jazz fusion. He was replaced twice on "Animalize", because he wasn't fitting in. Bruce should have been the one who replaced Vinnie or better yet to replace Ace originally.

Grover Jackson just provided Paul with a list of guitarists. Hiring Mark was Paul's mistake. Gene was too busy making a movie.

Sorry for the delayed response as sometimes I don't come here for a week or so. Although I see what you are saying in terms of him not being a fan I do believe he was capable of playing in the style of Vinnie and the other fast players of that era which Gene and Paul were seeking. KISS to me anyway has always been followers and not leaders and I'm just curious with 1 album under his feet and getting the style of how Gene and Paul want things done what a second album would have sounded like with him and maybe Gene and Paul more involved especially Gene.

I'm probably in the minority but given the time of the 80's I like the one Poughkeepsie Live Off The Soundboard they released with him on it, to my non music ears St. John sounds live anyway like a more tasteful Vinnie.

More Bob Stinson in The Replacements would have been great, but there'd likely have been no survivors.

The original Heart band with Roger Fisher could have continued to be great.

Earl Skakel wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:14 pm

risingfarce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:12 am

Earl Skakel wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 8:51 am I know I'm in the minority on this one but I would have liked one more album with Mark St John just too see what he could do as I love the guitar sound on Animalize. I mean how bad could he have been if Grover Jackson himself brought him to KISS in the first place?

Mark was the wrong choice. He didn't listen to KISS, he listened to jazz fusion. He was replaced twice on "Animalize", because he wasn't fitting in. Bruce should have been the one who replaced Vinnie or better yet to replace Ace originally.

Grover Jackson just provided Paul with a list of guitarists. Hiring Mark was Paul's mistake. Gene was too busy making a movie.

Sorry for the delayed response as sometimes I don't come here for a week or so. Although I see what you are saying in terms of him not being a fan I do believe he was capable of playing in the style of Vinnie and the other fast players of that era which Gene and Paul were seeking. KISS to me anyway has always been followers and not leaders and I'm just curious with 1 album under his feet and getting the style of how Gene and Paul want things done what a second album would have sounded like with him and maybe Gene and Paul more involved especially Gene.

I'm probably in the minority but given the time of the 80's I like the one Poughkeepsie Live Off The Soundboard they released with him on it, to my non music ears St. John sounds live anyway like a more tasteful Vinnie.

When Ace quit the first time, Paul was looking for a Rhoads/Lee type of guitarist for KISS. IMO, shredding is not KISS-like at all. KISS needed a rock guitarist, not a heavy metal guitarist. They were never a metal band, although some of their songs are metal or at least metal-ish. When Mark was fired, Bruce was the guy, because he could be flashy, but that wasn't the only thing in his bag. He was a melodic rock guitarist who had a bluesy background. He could do the Van Halen stuff when needed, but the majority of his stuff fit the KISS mold. Mark and Vinnie, style-wise, were not compatible with KISS.

My first KISS concert was on the "Lick It Up" tour. Vinnie sucked playing Ace's stuff. One obnoxious shred fest after another. So not KISS' style. Paul knew he didn't fit the band, music-wise, personality-wise, and even height-wise. That's all on Paul and Gene for hiring him and not properly planning Ace's replacement. They did not properly schedule writing and recording of the new lp, finding a replacement, and rehearsal for the next tour.

risingfarce wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:53 am IMO, shredding is not KISS-like at all. KISS needed a rock guitarist, not a heavy metal guitarist. They were never a metal band, although some of their songs are metal or at least metal-ish. When Mark was fired, Bruce was the guy, because he could be flashy, but that wasn't the only thing in his bag. He was a melodic rock guitarist who had a bluesy background. He could do the Van Halen stuff when needed, but the majority of his stuff fit the KISS mold. Mark and Vinnie, style-wise, were not compatible with KISS.

While I agree with all of this, Vinnie played in the style he was told and/or what he thought would fit in with the times in Kiss. The stuff he played before joining Kiss was not metal or glam at all and far from his work in Kiss/VVI and so was his look. Maybe his early 80s band Warrior was "metal" (more like AOR with heavier guitars) but without OTT shredding.

When he joined Kiss he got this strange idea that if he wants to be a rock star he has to out-shred all Yngwies, Vais and EVHs and look more out there than all of Mötley, Poison and Tigertailz put together. Probably not a great idea even in 83-86.

Love_Industry wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:12 am

risingfarce wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:53 am IMO, shredding is not KISS-like at all. KISS needed a rock guitarist, not a heavy metal guitarist. They were never a metal band, although some of their songs are metal or at least metal-ish. When Mark was fired, Bruce was the guy, because he could be flashy, but that wasn't the only thing in his bag. He was a melodic rock guitarist who had a bluesy background. He could do the Van Halen stuff when needed, but the majority of his stuff fit the KISS mold. Mark and Vinnie, style-wise, were not compatible with KISS.

While I agree with all of this, Vinnie played in the style he was told and/or what he thought would fit in with the times in Kiss. The stuff he played before joining Kiss was not metal or glam at all and far from his work in Kiss/VVI and so was his look. Maybe his early 80s band Warrior was "metal" (more like AOR with heavier guitars) but without OTT shredding.

When he joined Kiss he got this strange idea that if he wants to be a rock star he has to out-shred all Yngwies, Vais and EVHs and look more out there than all of Mötley, Poison and Tigertailz put together. Probably not a great idea even in 83-86.

True, Vinnie and Mark were told what to play on those KISS lps. That was Paul's decision and to a lesser degree Gene's.

VV thought he was the next Rhoads. He wasn't. Why? His solos weren't memorable. Just a bunch of noise. If you've ever seen his guitar instructional tape (I have it and it can be found online) you'll realize what a joke he is. Terrible. He was trying to be taken seriously and he was dressing like he was a member of Vixen. He's his own worst enemy.

risingfarce wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:53 am

Earl Skakel wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:14 pm

risingfarce wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:12 am

Mark was the wrong choice. He didn't listen to KISS, he listened to jazz fusion. He was replaced twice on "Animalize", because he wasn't fitting in. Bruce should have been the one who replaced Vinnie or better yet to replace Ace originally.

Grover Jackson just provided Paul with a list of guitarists. Hiring Mark was Paul's mistake. Gene was too busy making a movie.

Sorry for the delayed response as sometimes I don't come here for a week or so. Although I see what you are saying in terms of him not being a fan I do believe he was capable of playing in the style of Vinnie and the other fast players of that era which Gene and Paul were seeking. KISS to me anyway has always been followers and not leaders and I'm just curious with 1 album under his feet and getting the style of how Gene and Paul want things done what a second album would have sounded like with him and maybe Gene and Paul more involved especially Gene.

I'm probably in the minority but given the time of the 80's I like the one Poughkeepsie Live Off The Soundboard they released with him on it, to my non music ears St. John sounds live anyway like a more tasteful Vinnie.

When Ace quit the first time, Paul was looking for a Rhoads/Lee type of guitarist for KISS. IMO, shredding is not KISS-like at all. KISS needed a rock guitarist, not a heavy metal guitarist. They were never a metal band, although some of their songs are metal or at least metal-ish. When Mark was fired, Bruce was the guy, because he could be flashy, but that wasn't the only thing in his bag. He was a melodic rock guitarist who had a bluesy background. He could do the Van Halen stuff when needed, but the majority of his stuff fit the KISS mold. Mark and Vinnie, style-wise, were not compatible with KISS.

My first KISS concert was on the "Lick It Up" tour. Vinnie sucked playing Ace's stuff. One obnoxious shred fest after another. So not KISS' style. Paul knew he didn't fit the band, music-wise, personality-wise, and even height-wise. That's all on Paul and Gene for hiring him and not properly planning Ace's replacement. They did not properly schedule writing and recording of the new lp, finding a replacement, and rehearsal for the next tour.

I don't think Ace would have done well in the early/mid 80's with KISS with these guys being in vogue at the time
Van Halen
Lee
Rhoads
Demartini to a degree although never known as a shredder
among many others like Gillis....

I didn't mind Vinnie free styling on Ace's solos and riffs but I get why people didn't like him or St John for simply not being Ace. I will say I think Bruce was probably the best fit because he does what he's told and causes virtually no headache unlike Vinnie who was so nuts he got kicked out of The Vinnie Vincent Invasion WTF?

Anthrax442 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:35 am

Sleek wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:10 pm

skatexedge wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:49 pm

I saw that lineup of Whitesnake live at Day On The Green 1987 and they kicked ass! I was very impressed! An album with them recorded after that tour also would have been killer!

I was there. I have no memory of Whitesnake from that day lol.

I remember a little more from when I saw them om Slide it In, but not much. They were pretty generic, even if they were high-performing generic.

I'm probably one of the bigger Whitesnake fans on the board, and I think there's a reason that lineup never recorded an album. I'm just not sure what songs you're getting out of that guitar tandem. I love Starkers in Tokyo and Vivian did some nice stuff in Dio, so no disrespect to either, but I think they're both better as sidemen.

Hell yeah... between them, Viv and Vandy couldn't write a commercial jingle, which is why Viv quit and SyVy got paid a million dollars to rescue SOTT under cover of Adrian's "arthritis".

Earl Skakel wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 1:04 pm

risingfarce wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 12:53 am

Earl Skakel wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:14 pm

Sorry for the delayed response as sometimes I don't come here for a week or so. Although I see what you are saying in terms of him not being a fan I do believe he was capable of playing in the style of Vinnie and the other fast players of that era which Gene and Paul were seeking. KISS to me anyway has always been followers and not leaders and I'm just curious with 1 album under his feet and getting the style of how Gene and Paul want things done what a second album would have sounded like with him and maybe Gene and Paul more involved especially Gene.

I'm probably in the minority but given the time of the 80's I like the one Poughkeepsie Live Off The Soundboard they released with him on it, to my non music ears St. John sounds live anyway like a more tasteful Vinnie.

When Ace quit the first time, Paul was looking for a Rhoads/Lee type of guitarist for KISS. IMO, shredding is not KISS-like at all. KISS needed a rock guitarist, not a heavy metal guitarist. They were never a metal band, although some of their songs are metal or at least metal-ish. When Mark was fired, Bruce was the guy, because he could be flashy, but that wasn't the only thing in his bag. He was a melodic rock guitarist who had a bluesy background. He could do the Van Halen stuff when needed, but the majority of his stuff fit the KISS mold. Mark and Vinnie, style-wise, were not compatible with KISS.

My first KISS concert was on the "Lick It Up" tour. Vinnie sucked playing Ace's stuff. One obnoxious shred fest after another. So not KISS' style. Paul knew he didn't fit the band, music-wise, personality-wise, and even height-wise. That's all on Paul and Gene for hiring him and not properly planning Ace's replacement. They did not properly schedule writing and recording of the new lp, finding a replacement, and rehearsal for the next tour.

I don't think Ace would have done well in the early/mid 80's with KISS with these guys being in vogue at the time
Van Halen
Lee
Rhoads
Demartini to a degree although never known as a shredder
among many others like Gillis....

I didn't mind Vinnie free styling on Ace's solos and riffs but I get why people didn't like him or St John for simply not being Ace. I will say I think Bruce was probably the best fit because he does what he's told and causes virtually no headache unlike Vinnie who was so nuts he got kicked out of The Vinnie Vincent Invasion WTF?

It all depends on the songs. A 20 second lead guitar solo in a song doesn't sell the song. KISS, with Ace or anyone else, would succeed if they had catchy, memorable songs.

During the grunge era you had bands like Gin Blossoms and Toad The Wet Sprocket having songs on the radio. Those tracks weren't grunge. Write a good, catchy song and you may have a hit.

KISS, on the other hand, went a big heavier with "Revenge". They got some exposure on Headbanger's Ball with "Unholy", but nothing else from that cd caught on on radio. Years later, they did get some radio play with "Jungle", a grungy song after the grunge era happened.

My problems with VV and MSJ weren't that they weren't Ace, but rather their styles had nothing to do with KISS' sound. In concert you expect to hear the majority of the solo in a song played like it was on the lp, but with VV that didn't happen. Plus, to be fair, Paul and Gene wanted the tempo of the songs played faster in concert. They wanted the older songs to sound current like the new songs.

Bruce worked well in KISS because he played for the song. VV played for himself.

Jungle was only popular on airplay (for two weeks) because people remembered who KISS were after the reunion. Was so odd releasing that after the reunion tour.

Toy Matinee

Jellyfish

The Grays

Yngwie Malmsteen with Jeff Scott Soto (really wish Jeff sang on the third album)

Michael Schenker Group with Graham Bonnet (though nothing was going to work due to Graham's drinking and Michael's drugging)

Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe (would have liked a 2nd album that actually had them all playing together)

U.K. (Wetton Holdsworth Jobson Bruford)

Emerson Lake & Powell

Don Dokken (solo band with Norum, Billy White, and Ken Mary)

Blue Murder (the original trio)

David Lee Roth (Eat 'Em & Smile band)

Krokus (Headhunter line-up, needed to keep that for 3-4 albums and stick with more of a Euro-metal sound)

BernieTaupson wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:58 pm Jungle was only popular on airplay (for two weeks) because people remembered who KISS were after the reunion. Was so odd releasing that after the reunion tour.

"Jungle" received airplay because it's a good song and people liked it.

Mercury wanted to recoup the advance that they gave to Paul and Gene for "Carnival Of Souls". Mercury chose a down time between the end of the "Alive/Worldwide" tour and the recording of "Psycho Circus" to release it.