A Serious Question For The Acetards

[Tommy2Tone84]

I’m not trolling here or anything with this question, I am sincerely asking and am curious

You all say that Ace is a one in a million guitarist. Yet, so many players came into the studio and and easily ghosted leads for him. I would think it’s much harder to go in and ghost for someone, especially an “iconic” guitarist like Ace than be a one trick pony like Ace. As a musician, I don’t think I could do what Bob and Dick did. Dick’s playing on Destroyer is phenomenal. His acoustic guitar that Peter laughably air guitars over in POTP, is expert level and Dick’s solo on Sweet Pain is cooler than the two on resurrected, which I tend to think are both Ace.

You Acetards realize you’re paying Ace a back-handed compliment when attempting to insult Bob Kulick, right? Ace’s style was incredibly easy to duplicate. The band did it for years and we, as fans were none the wiser for many years. Then, out of the other side of your mouths you’re trying to claim Ace was a once in a lifetime, seminal figure who couldn’t be replaced and the band wouldn’t have worked without him. Yet they did. First with Dick Wagner and then with Bob. So which is it?



Ace was the Erik Turner and Joey Allen of the 70s.

[eddie lee roth]

I’m not trolling or anything with this response. I’m just curious if you’ll see my point of view. I think you need to be like a fortune cookie and “use your time wisely.”

[VinnieVincentsVag]

Maybe.
He’s still the reason I picked up a guitar

[eddie lee roth]

Maybe.
He’s still the reason I picked up a guitar

Exactly. He was the spaceman with a guitar for millions of kids.

[kytepunches]

I think for me it was a visual influence more so than his playing. He was the most individual, coolest looking guitar player in any magazine . When you flipped through Circus or Hit Parader and saw the make up- light up guitar and smoke. That’s what made me interested in Kiss. The live show. So for that alone ,i will keep a bit of respect for Ace as an artist.

[HoldenSSV]

I think for me it was a visual influence more so than his playing. He was the most individual, coolest looking guitar player in any magazine . When you flipped through Circus or Hit Parader and saw the make up- light up guitar and smoke. That’s what made me interested in Kiss. The live show. So for that alone ,i will keep a bit of respect for Ace as an artist.

While I can understand and respect this, I knew by age 12 that he sucked as a guitarist so I moved on.

[kytepunches]

I think for me it was a visual influence more so than his playing. He was the most individual, coolest looking guitar player in any magazine . When you flipped through Circus or Hit Parader and saw the make up- light up guitar and smoke. That’s what made me interested in Kiss. The live show. So for that alone ,i will keep a bit of respect for Ace as an artist.

While I can understand and respect this, I knew by age 12 that he sucked as a guitarist so I moved on.

Me too . The only shred of respect he gets from me was dead by 1980.

[Wiseacre]

Been a fan since 1977. Until the internet I had no idea Ace didn't play the solo on "Sweet Pain". When I learned this I had to think really, really hard about how that solo went. I never had to do this for any of Ace's solos. That should tell you something.

There are million people who could passably mimic an EVH solo, but none of those people would have ever some up with the original blue-print.

Ace was a great fit for KISS. That's it. He was at least as good as the other musicians in the band, and arguably better than any of them in their particular role. That's what a band is all about. He was able to take a handful of licks and a few basic runs and turn them into simple, but very memorable solos that pretty much always elevated the song.

Add to that he looked as was as cool as hell and when we are talking about a visual band like KISS, this is more important than anything else.

Take away the makeup and all the rest and 30 or 40 years of people playing more and faster and he pales in comparison, but who doesn't? Not many. Ace is what he is, but more importantly he was what he was when it really mattered and is a BIG part of why we even discuss this meat and potatoes RnR band after 50 years. What he is now is not really relevant at all any more than Paul Stanley having zero singing ability now. Paul will always be the rock star he was in 1977 within the context of 1977 just like Ace.

As for ghosting, Ace was ghosted FAR less than Gene, but the difference was that none of those other players tried to "sound like Gene". That should also tell you something about Ace.

[DangerZone]

Ace helped bring guitar out of the boring “authentic” blues based bullshit of the 70s - his solos were hummable and had great tone.
And he was cool for younger kids.

I’ve heard nothing Dick Wagner did for Kiss that was worth an ounce of shit.

I really like Bob Kulick’s playing but he doesn’t sound like Ace & even said the bosses never told him to cop Ace

Furthermore, i haven’t seen anyone on here talk about Ace being one in a million. He gets slagged on but rightly thought of fondly for our formative years. He’s the gateway into modern 80s rock.
Even risingfarce slags on him

TL/DR: another wtf post from tommy2bongs

[Wiseacre]

I think for me it was a visual influence more so than his playing. He was the most individual, coolest looking guitar player in any magazine . When you flipped through Circus or Hit Parader and saw the make up- light up guitar and smoke. That’s what made me interested in Kiss. The live show. So for that alone ,i will keep a bit of respect for Ace as an artist.

While I can understand and respect this, I knew by age 12 that he sucked as a guitarist so I moved on.

If you thought Ace "sucked" when you were twelve you likely have no idea what a good guitar solo is.

question: have you ever masturbated to DragonForce? Asking for a friend.

[Neil Diamond Dave]

While it's not hard for Dick to duplicate Ace, it also wasn't hard for him to duplicate Joe Perry on a few albums either.

But Ace and Joe brought the whole-package coolness factor to millions of kids, for sure.

[kytepunches]

While it's not hard for Dick to duplicate Ace, it also wasn't hard for him to duplicate Joe Perry on a few albums either.

But Ace and Joe brought the whole-package coolness factor to millions of kids, for sure.

If we are nitpicking about guitar players ability. You could make all the same arguments about Keith Richards too.

[Wiseacre]

While it's not hard for Dick to duplicate Ace, it also wasn't hard for him to duplicate Joe Perry on a few albums either.

But Ace and Joe brought the whole-package coolness factor to millions of kids, for sure.

If we are nitpicking about guitar players ability. You could make all the same arguments about Keith Richards too.

If the '80s did anything, it ruined music listeners' ability to contextualize.

[Dyslexicheart]

"Yet, so many players came into the studio and and easily ghosted leads for him"

So many - Dick on one solo (I'm not counting Beth for the seconds long acoustic) and Bob. Bob, because Ace had clearly pulled the plug by then. So "so many" is actually two. And that's from nine studio albums and two live albums that Ace played on. And your "easily" were guitar parts Ace could easily have handled and easily improved on had Ezrin, Gene and Paul not sold him out on Destroyer.

Yeah, you have no agenda with your post other than a lame attempt to trash Ace. He has clearly declined after all these decades, but he was perfect for Kiss back in the heyday.

[NeonKnite]

You Acetards realize you’re paying Ace a back-handed compliment when attempting to insult Bob Kulick, right? Ace’s style was incredibly easy to duplicate.

Ace's playing is so incredibly easy to duplicate, that Bob Kulick sounds nothing like Ace on any of the KISS recordings he contributed too.

[HoldenSSV]

If you thought Ace "sucked" when you were twelve you likely have no idea what a good guitar solo is.

question: have you ever masturbated to DragonForce? Asking for a friend.

If you think Ace is good as an adult, your Depends are past due for a change.

What color was your special helmet when you rode the short bus?

[Wiseacre]

Dick’s playing on Destroyer is phenomenal. His acoustic guitar that Peter laughably air guitars over in POTP, is expert level and Dick’s solo on Sweet Pain is cooler than the two on resurrected, which I tend to think are both Ace.

Paul air guitar to Beth in KMTPOTP not Peter.

There are two versions of Sweet Pain on Resurrected - the remixed Destroyer version (with the same Dick Wagner solo) and one with an Ace solo, which is clearly a scratch solo that Ace never got around to replacing since they used Wagner instead one day when Ace didn’t show up.

Precisely. And you know Paul and Ezrin probably did a reach-around thinking that putting Ace’s half-baked off-the-cuff solo on Resurrected would somehow justify using Wagner. It doesn’t and Dick’s solo is nothing special at all.

Destroyer is easily the weakest Ace album of the first 6 (or any KISS album he played on). He smokes on RARO and LG, then his solo album, Dynasty and even Unmasked and “Dark Light”. Which iconic solo are even on Destroyer? SIOL maybe (super short)? The God of Thunder solo is a wash of silly fx and is better on Alive II. Ezrin totally neutered Ace on that album obviously due to his love of replacing everyone with his buddies and/or writing the solos himself.

How anyone could listen to Alive! and come to the conclusion Ace and Peter couldn’t “cut it” is a real mystery. DRC aside (which is basically Peter’s 100,000 Years “ shuffle) the drumming was dumbed down to the point of ridiculous on Destroyer. Is there even an actual drum fill on the whole thing? Peter’s fills were what made the early stuff so unique and interesting. He basically made Peter sound like a 4 pattern drum machine. I love the Wall and the Elder, but Ezrin had NO understanding of KISS, imo.

[pieceofme]

Dick’s playing on Destroyer is phenomenal. His acoustic guitar that Peter laughably air guitars over in POTP, is expert level and Dick’s solo on Sweet Pain is cooler than the two on resurrected, which I tend to think are both Ace.

Paul air guitar to Beth in KMTPOTP not Peter.

There are two versions of Sweet Pain on Resurrected - the remixed Destroyer version (with the same Dick Wagner solo) and one with an Ace solo, which is clearly a scratch solo that Ace never got around to replacing since they used Wagner instead one day when Ace didn’t show up.

Precisely. And you know Paul and Ezrin probably did a reach-around thinking that putting Ace’s half-baked off-the-cuff solo on Resurrected would somehow justify using Wagner. It doesn’t and Dick’s solo is nothing special at all.

Destroyer is easily the weakest Ace album of the first 6 (or any KISS album he played on). He smokes on RARO and LG, then his solo album, Dynasty and even Unmasked and “Dark Light”. Which iconic solo are even on Destroyer? SIOL maybe (super short)? The God of Thunder solo is a wash of silly fx and is better on Alive II. Ezrin totally neutered Ace on that album obviously due to his love of replacing everyone with his buddies and/or writing the solos himself.

How anyone could listen to Alive! and come to the conclusion Ace and Peter couldn’t “cut it” is a real mystery. DRC aside (which is basically Peter’s 100,000 Years “ shuffle) the drumming was dumbed down to the point of ridiculous on Destroyer. Is there even an actual drum fill on the whole thing? Peter’s fills were what made the early stuff so unique and interesting. He basically made Peter sound like a 4 pattern drum machine. I love the Wall and the Elder, but Ezrin had NO understanding of KISS, imo.

Don't you think Destroyer is one of the best KISS albums as well?

[Wiseacre]

Paul air guitar to Beth in KMTPOTP not Peter.

There are two versions of Sweet Pain on Resurrected - the remixed Destroyer version (with the same Dick Wagner solo) and one with an Ace solo, which is clearly a scratch solo that Ace never got around to replacing since they used Wagner instead one day when Ace didn’t show up.

Precisely. And you know Paul and Ezrin probably did a reach-around thinking that putting Ace’s half-baked off-the-cuff solo on Resurrected would somehow justify using Wagner. It doesn’t and Dick’s solo is nothing special at all.

Destroyer is easily the weakest Ace album of the first 6 (or any KISS album he played on). He smokes on RARO and LG, then his solo album, Dynasty and even Unmasked and “Dark Light”. Which iconic solo are even on Destroyer? SIOL maybe (super short)? The God of Thunder solo is a wash of silly fx and is better on Alive II. Ezrin totally neutered Ace on that album obviously due to his love of replacing everyone with his buddies and/or writing the solos himself.

How anyone could listen to Alive! and come to the conclusion Ace and Peter couldn’t “cut it” is a real mystery. DRC aside (which is basically Peter’s 100,000 Years “ shuffle) the drumming was dumbed down to the point of ridiculous on Destroyer. Is there even an actual drum fill on the whole thing? Peter’s fills were what made the early stuff so unique and interesting. He basically made Peter sound like a 4 pattern drum machine. I love the Wall and the Elder, but Ezrin had NO understanding of KISS, imo.

Don't you think Destroyer is one of the best KISS albums as well?

Song-wise, yes, but he pretty much ruined the band and Peters’s and especially Ace’s contributions which was not necessary.

[aznsquirt]

I think for me it was a visual influence more so than his playing. He was the most individual, coolest looking guitar player in any magazine . When you flipped through Circus or Hit Parader and saw the make up- light up guitar and smoke. That’s what made me interested in Kiss. The live show. So for that alone ,i will keep a bit of respect for Ace as an artist.

While I can understand and respect this, I knew by age 12 that he sucked as a guitarist so I moved on.

Yeah, he's awful.

But I can easily make a case for him being a "one in a million guitarist" in his way, as that's how the OP framed it.

[DangerZone]

Precisely. And you know Paul and Ezrin probably did a reach-around thinking that putting Ace’s half-baked off-the-cuff solo on Resurrected would somehow justify using Wagner. It doesn’t and Dick’s solo is nothing special at all.

Destroyer is easily the weakest Ace album of the first 6 (or any KISS album he played on). He smokes on RARO and LG, then his solo album, Dynasty and even Unmasked and “Dark Light”. Which iconic solo are even on Destroyer? SIOL maybe (super short)? The God of Thunder solo is a wash of silly fx and is better on Alive II. Ezrin totally neutered Ace on that album obviously due to his love of replacing everyone with his buddies and/or writing the solos himself.

How anyone could listen to Alive! and come to the conclusion Ace and Peter couldn’t “cut it” is a real mystery. DRC aside (which is basically Peter’s 100,000 Years “ shuffle) the drumming was dumbed down to the point of ridiculous on Destroyer. Is there even an actual drum fill on the whole thing? Peter’s fills were what made the early stuff so unique and interesting. He basically made Peter sound like a 4 pattern drum machine. I love the Wall and the Elder, but Ezrin had NO understanding of KISS, imo.

Don't you think Destroyer is one of the best KISS albums as well?

Song-wise, yes, but he pretty much ruined the band and Peters’s and especially Ace’s contributions which was not necessary.

Destroyer is one of the worst Kiss albums
(All I know is up to Revenge)

Even as a very young kid I didn’t like it- had a tape of it so didn’t know it was destroyer at the time- but those songs sounded different (worse) than the stuff I loved off double platinum.
In retrospect I know it was neutering/over production

[PBFSUCKS]

Ace was perfect for Kiss when they first started. Early Ace, when he was hungry, was great at what he did. Let me Go Rock and Roll live solo was bad ass. But he got rich, got lazy and hasn’t progressed since 77.

As far as Dick Wagner goes…the dude ended up in Saginaw ripping bands off by signing them to his label and charging them to record at his outdated studio.

Ace and Joe Perry were legends who were able to create shit, not mimic it.

[DangerZone]

Ace was perfect for Kiss when they first started. Early Ace, when he was hungry, was great at what he did. Let me Go Rock and Roll live solo was bad ass. But he got rich, got lazy and hasn’t progressed since 77.

Totally.

But Gene and Paul seem to think they did. Gene barely played any bass on the albums after 1978 and up until the final show in 2024 Paul was still doing the same lame guitar solo he had done for decades and clipping most of the notes during the intro to Black Diamond. If anything he was playing that WORSE than he used to play it in the 70s!

Gene hasn’t done a good bass line since 1982!

Ace is a total burnout sure (personally I think he’s got some form of early onset dementia), but Gene and Paul are the last guys who should be criticising anyone.

They jumped on that bandwagon in the 90s to try to promote Revenge and justify Bruce by slagging off Ace, but it didn’t work. They would show up to those KISStard Konventions and everyone would be calling out for 70s songs and wearing Ace and Peter shirts. Paul and Gene finally accepted that any attempts to be current were just a waste of time, no one gave a shit. Remember on Unplugged when Paul said “here’s something a little more RECENT” and there was total silence and some people even laughed and clapped sarcastically.

Around 94 the nostalgia for original Kiss began - and all the current guitarists (eg, dimebag) gave Ace props.
It was like the Tom Snyder interview writ large - Gene & Paul left sulking
but money eventually talked

[aznsquirt]

They jumped on that bandwagon in the 90s

Are you familiar with "I was Made for Loving You?"

I'm fucking with you; I know you had some nuance to your point, but I had to say it.

The fact that anybody takes KISS seriously beyond "they were ahead of the curve image-wise and inspired a pile of bands" is hilarious. Nobody can take that away from them.

They were a solid rock band in the 70 and attached a mind-blowing (at the time) stage act to propel them to stardom.

Then they chased anything and everything $$ related after.

The fact that they have any street cred is a joke.

[Metal Heart]

I'm not trolling, I'm just calling anyone that is a fan of Ace Frehley a retard. That's not trolling at all.

[aznsquirt]

They jumped on that bandwagon in the 90s

Are you familiar with "I was Made for Loving You?"

The Ace bashing bandwagon.

More about bashing KISS than Ace, TBH.

KISS was a bandwagon jumping $$ chasing band within 4 years of KISS Alive II being released. It's just the truth.

The real truth is that their "classic" 70s albums was them trying to sell out, they just happened to get it right. There isn't and has never been anything "authentic" about KISS since days 1.

Paul and Gene tried to become producer/etc. moguls in the 80s and failed at it. The 90s gave them a chance to re-invent themselves as some kind of O.G. flag flying rock band and it worked well enough, but it's comical.

[Tommy2Tone84]

I’m not trolling or anything with this response. I’m just curious if you’ll see my point of view. I think you need to be like a fortune cookie and “use your time wisely.”

Were you polishing your 1978 Ace Frehley belt buckle as you typed this?

[Tommy2Tone84]

Been a fan since 1977. Until the internet I had no idea Ace didn't play the solo on "Sweet Pain". When I learned this I had to think really, really hard about how that solo went. I never had to do this for any of Ace's solos. That should tell you something.

There are million people who could passably mimic an EVH solo, but none of those people would have ever some up with the original blue-print.

Ace was a great fit for KISS. That's it. He was at least as good as the other musicians in the band, and arguably better than any of them in their particular role. That's what a band is all about. He was able to take a handful of licks and a few basic runs and turn them into simple, but very memorable solos that pretty much always elevated the song.

Add to that he looked as was as cool as hell and when we are talking about a visual band like KISS, this is more important than anything else.

Take away the makeup and all the rest and 30 or 40 years of people playing more and faster and he pales in comparison, but who doesn't? Not many. Ace is what he is, but more importantly he was what he was when it really mattered and is a BIG part of why we even discuss this meat and potatoes RnR band after 50 years. What he is now is not really relevant at all any more than Paul Stanley having zero singing ability now. Paul will always be the rock star he was in 1977 within the context of 1977 just like Ace.

As for ghosting, Ace was ghosted FAR less than Gene, but the difference was that none of those other players tried to "sound like Gene". That should also tell you something about Ace.

Did your listen to Sweet Pain very often? It’s not like it was ever a staple in the set list, radio hit or a fan favorite. I would have to think really hard about the solo in Getaway too. I never listened to that song.

Look, I love Ace and he was great for what he was. But fans tend to put him in on the same level as a Page, Clapton, Hendrix and Beck which I find laughable. The fact fans think he blows Slash away says it all. Even at Slash’s lowest, he managed to put out those two Snakepit records which bury any of the Frehley’s Comet material.

If you’ve really listened to the band and gone back to it’s Wicked Lester days, love him or hate him, Gene is by far the best musician in the band. I’d love to see Ace do what Gene did; playing those often times McCartney-inspired bass lines while either covering a two, sometimes three part harmony or singing lead with all that gear on, jumping around and performing like a maniac. Ace could not have done any of that.

Going back to Wicked Lester, they were actually a very good band with very good musicianship. Gene plays his ass off and plays some really interesting, at time intricate passages. He’s much better than Ace fans and critics want to give him credit for.

[Mister Freeze]

"I could play 'Stairway To Heaven' when I was 12. Jimmy Page didn't actually write it until he was 22. I think that says quite a lot."
- Vim Fuego

[Tommy2Tone84]

"I could play 'Stairway To Heaven' when I was 12. Jimmy Page didn't actually write it until he was 22. I think that says quite a lot."
- Vim Fuego

Who is Vim Fuego? Never heard of ‘em.

Stairway To Heaven > Ace Frehley’s entire career