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Why did this White Lion album flop? It came out in April of '91, so Grunge isn't the reason.

https://youtu.be/HK7NDBgzDOg?si=xN42G4ivOtpZ4Iiy

If you think that hair farmers weren't already struggling before September 91, you weren't there.

Must not be many loyal fans here.

White Lion were done when Big Game stiffed.

Brainy Lane wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 1:15 pm White Lion were done when Big Game stiffed.

Radar Love got a lot of play.

I loved Little Fighter and Radar Love
Even bought the record.
Not many did though.

Blaming grunge is an easy answer for albums/bands dying.
So many bands were cooked before Grunge kicked in.

Pride was the outlier just like Metal Health or Stay Hungry. Big Game and Mane Attraction sold what a White Lion album without a massive MTV hit should sell. WL were better musicians than QR and TS and it isn't even close but their songs were bland and they had one of the worst vocalists in the genre

WL were lucky that they got bigger than WASP, Keel and Heavens Edge ever did. Three bands with uglier but better vocalists.

Edit: WTCC was ahead of its time. Around 1987 power ballads were all about love or being on the road. Sometimes both, like Every Rose... But those with a social / political message came some years after the WL song. Wind of Change, Time for Change, One, Don't Let Daddy Kiss Me... and a bunch of C-D league hair farmers like Babylon AD and Saigon Kick had to have their "serious" ballad.

Love Don’t Come Easy is a great tune. That whole album was well produced / mixed. Sounds great.

Bono Nettencourt wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 12:59 pm If you think that hair farmers weren't already struggling before September 91, you weren't there.

A lot were, but some were still in the top 40 around that time like Firehouse, Scorps, Steelheart, Nelson, and Poison's last taste of commercial success.

And Mane Attraction wasn't bad, it was just very generic for its time. The genre in general had become extremely watered down by that point, as has been documented here and elsewhere, hence the struggle at the time. As much as I like that last gasp of hair metal '91-'92, it was still pretty much the final nail in the coffin for the most part.

TheDeadBastard wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 5:52 pm Love Don’t Come Easy is a great tune. That whole album was well produced / mixed. Sounds great.

By the dreaded Richie Zito. Once he was done with them, he proceeded to kill The Cult, Cher, and Poison's careers.

Bono Nettencourt wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 12:59 pm If you think that hair farmers weren't already struggling before September 91, you weren't there.

That’s a hasty generalization.

White Lion were struggling but they were never that good. They had one good album.

Sales and attendance wise, Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, Van Halen, Scorpions, KISS, Whitesnake, Motley Crue, Poison, Guns N Roses, Skid Row, Warrant, Queensryche, and even bands like Slaughter, Extreme, Winger, Firehouse, Mr Big and Nelson were not struggling at the time, your “pre September 91”

Some acts were like, David Lee Roth, Quiet Riot, Judas Priest, Alice Cooper, and Cinderella to varying degrees. Everyone points to that 1991 Operation: Rock & Roll tour that Priest, Alice, Motörhead and Dangerous Toys did as the “downfall.” I’ve heard that Eric Singer was crying about it since he was on it and it got cancelled due to lack of demand. But I would argue that tour would’ve failed had it gone out in 1986. Four bands is a lot. It’s too much and that lineup was a terrible mix of acts. Priest were never MTV or radio darlings, Alice was never KISS never mind The Stones, Motörhead was never a big draw, and Dangerous Toys were not very good.

The Cinderella, DLR, Extreme tour should have been successful. I mostly blame Roth for that. He was washed up, his schtick was old and tiresome and I think his name on that bill kept people away. Had the promoters relegated him to the opening act or better yet, kept him off the tour entirely, I feel the tour would have done better.


Van Halen, Scorpions, Poison, Warrant, Queensryche, Nelson, Firehouse, Mr Big, Nelson, Trixter, Guns N Roses, Skid Row were all doing excellent business both in album sales and tour sales in 1991.

I always thought Big Game was a successful record but it turned out it was considered a disappointment in terms of sales and being too light/soft.

So by the time Mane Attraction came out, the scene was fading. It never got a fair chance. Simple as that really. You can't blame the record company. They had a good budget and production. 2 videos.

Although I like both records, one thing they are both lacking is the big heavy guitar riffs like Hungry or Lady of the Valley had. Not that they were heavy songs but they were damn cool riffs. Love Don't Come Easy is a great song but it's a pop tune, not a rock song. It probably would've done better mixed in with Eddie Money and Bryan Adams compared to GNR and Metallica that were everywhere at the time.

Tommy2Tone84 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 8:12 am [But I would argue that tour would’ve failed had it gone out in 1986. Four bands is a lot. It’s too much and that lineup was a terrible mix of acts. Priest were never MTV or radio darlings, Alice was never KISS never mind The Stones, Motörhead was never a big draw, and Dangerous Toys were not very good.

The Cinderella, DLR, Extreme tour should have been successful. I mostly blame Roth for that. He was washed up, his schtick was old and tiresome and I think his name on that bill kept people away. Had the promoters relegated him to the opening act or better yet, kept him off the tour entirely, I feel the tour would have done better.

Bad examples. Priest did great on their 1986 arena tour and would have done so no matter who opened - Dokken, Krokus and Warlock didn't move many tickets and Bon Jovi only opened a few shows in Canada. They still headlined arenas for Painkiller even if that album and Ram It Down stalled at gold. I guess Coop was the problem as Stoopid was a commercially disastrous follow up to Trash when all expected another big album / tour. But Trash was an outlier, his only platinum album in 50 (!!) Years. Yes, Nightmare was the previous one. 1975.

Didn't they try Cinderella/Extreme on their own first then merged the tour with Roth's because they were bombing so hard? Cinderella were already on a downwards spiral with Heartbreak Station selling 1/3 of LCW and Extreme just got lucky with a ballad or two that crossed over. Just like White Lion, Saigon Kick and other no-hopers. Roth didn't save the tour but in 1991 Extreme and Cinderella were not even close to arena headliner material.

Love_Industry wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 9:49 am

Tommy2Tone84 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 8:12 am [But I would argue that tour would’ve failed had it gone out in 1986. Four bands is a lot. It’s too much and that lineup was a terrible mix of acts. Priest were never MTV or radio darlings, Alice was never KISS never mind The Stones, Motörhead was never a big draw, and Dangerous Toys were not very good.

The Cinderella, DLR, Extreme tour should have been successful. I mostly blame Roth for that. He was washed up, his schtick was old and tiresome and I think his name on that bill kept people away. Had the promoters relegated him to the opening act or better yet, kept him off the tour entirely, I feel the tour would have done better.

Bad examples. Priest did great on their 1986 arena tour and would have done so no matter who opened - Dokken, Krokus and Warlock didn't move many tickets and Bon Jovi only opened a few shows in Canada. They still headlined arenas for Painkiller even if that album and Ram It Down stalled at gold. I guess Coop was the problem as Stoopid was a commercially disastrous follow up to Trash when all expected another big album / tour. But Trash was an outlier, his only platinum album in 50 (!!) Years. Yes, Nightmare was the previous one. 1975.

There wasn't a big tour for Trash. It was mostly theatres. Why was that? Was it because the 3 follow-up singles after Poison stiffed?

Bono Nettencourt wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 11:48 am
There wasn't a big tour for Trash. It was mostly theatres. Why was that? Was it because the 3 follow-up singles after Poison stiffed?

Then both Trash and Stoopid must have done better in Europe. He was Bon Jovi/Leppard huge with Trash and played the same arenas again with Stoopid to decent crowds. I didn't even realize Stoopid bombed hard in the US before I got on Sludge. It seemed big at the time, just not as big as Trash as only the title track was on MTV.

Trash was clearly the outlier. The Poison single maybe even more so.

Poison came out in the summer of 89 and he toured Europe in the fall. By the time he hit the states in 90 Trash had petered out I guess, along with the beginnings of the hair metal recession that T2T claims didn't exist...

I'm not sure, but everyone needs to go listen to Warsong now. Fucking rips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJg17jLrFqA

Love_Industry wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 9:49 am

Tommy2Tone84 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 8:12 am [But I would argue that tour would’ve failed had it gone out in 1986. Four bands is a lot. It’s too much and that lineup was a terrible mix of acts. Priest were never MTV or radio darlings, Alice was never KISS never mind The Stones, Motörhead was never a big draw, and Dangerous Toys were not very good.

The Cinderella, DLR, Extreme tour should have been successful. I mostly blame Roth for that. He was washed up, his schtick was old and tiresome and I think his name on that bill kept people away. Had the promoters relegated him to the opening act or better yet, kept him off the tour entirely, I feel the tour would have done better.

Bad examples. Priest did great on their 1986 arena tour and would have done so no matter who opened - Dokken, Krokus and Warlock didn't move many tickets and Bon Jovi only opened a few shows in Canada. They still headlined arenas for Painkiller even if that album and Ram It Down stalled at gold. I guess Coop was the problem as Stoopid was a commercially disastrous follow up to Trash when all expected another big album / tour. But Trash was an outlier, his only platinum album in 50 (!!) Years. Yes, Nightmare was the previous one. 1975.

Didn't they try Cinderella/Extreme on their own first then merged the tour with Roth's because they were bombing so hard? Cinderella were already on a downwards spiral with Heartbreak Station selling 1/3 of LCW and Extreme just got lucky with a ballad or two that crossed over. Just like White Lion, Saigon Kick and other no-hopers. Roth didn't save the tour but in 1991 Extreme and Cinderella were not even close to arena headliner material.

We’re dealing in hypotheticals. JP were never a massive selling band like Van Halen, Def Leppard, and Metallica. The best they did in the US was 2x Platinum with SFV. RID and Pk both went gold. I would say they are comparable to Iron Maiden, Scorpions and KISS. KISS might even have a a respectable edge on them if we were to compare their entire discographies.

What was the average attendance for the RID tour?

All I was saying was Motörhead, Alice and DT kept some fans away? Dokken were a way bigger band then all of them. Dokken consistently went platinum and was popular with our age group, and they were at their height with UL&K at the time. I’d take Krokus over Dangerous Toys. Maybe some of Operations problem was market saturation? JP only went gold and had already done a three month North American leg tour earlier in the year.

Cinderella played 71 dates in the United States. They were in arenas. I’ve seen the Detroit show online and it doesn’t sound like a half empty arena to me. The crowd is going nuts. By contrast, Priest only played 54 US dates that year in arenas as well. They both went gold which is still respectable, good business. I don’t understand why Heartbreak Station didn’t sell more than it did. It’s a good record.


You could say Vestryche got lucky with Silent Lucidity that year too.

Extreme’s Hole-Hearted also got good airplay on MTV. But More Than Words’s success obviously didn’t turn into concert tickets. I don’t understand why. Regardless, they were still a better act than David Lee Roth who had lost Sheehan and Vai within a period of a year and a half.

Tommy2Tone84 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 5:01 pm
Cinderella played 71 dates in the United States. They were in arenas. I’ve seen the Detroit show online and it doesn’t sound like a half empty arena to me. The crowd is going nuts. By contrast, Priest only played 54 US dates that year in arenas as well. They both went gold which is still respectable, good business. I don’t understand why Heartbreak Station didn’t sell more than it did. It’s a good record.

You could say Vestryche got lucky with Silent Lucidity that year too.

Extreme’s Hole-Hearted also got good airplay on MTV. But More Than Words’s success obviously didn’t turn into concert tickets. I don’t understand why. Regardless, they were still a better act than David Lee Roth who had lost Sheehan and Vai within a period of a year and a half.

Yes, Vestryche got lucky with Silent Lucidity indeed. For a short time. One of my favorite bands up to Promised Land and they deserved to be bigger but SL was not representative and I would say it killed the band as they just HAD to have a bunch of DeGarmo ballads on Promised Land, took too long to follow up Empire, and then let "hit songwriter" DeGarmo take over on that piece of crap HITNF.

Both Painkiller and Heartbreak Station are well liked now, but how was it at the time? I remember not everyone liked Painkiller, saying it was an old band trying to ride on the thrash wave when Metallica and Megadeth were getting big. Heartbreak Station.. wasn't it a bit like Slip of the Tongue or something, not hated but it didn't really connect either.

"Till Death Do Us Part" was the only potential hit, and it wasn't released as a single/video.

Mister Freeze wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:58 pm I remember being surprised White Lion got the "MTV Exclusive" treatment with "Little FIghter". It had a shot. I bought the album. I think people respected Big Game more than they enjoyed listening to it. At the time, I thought "Broken Home" should've been the big power ballad, but it was probably too depressing to be a single.

By the time Mane Attraction came around, the buzz was gone. And I think the label was looking ahead to other shit.

Yeah they tried to make "Little Fighter" Wait pt. 2, but it didn't take. Putting out Radar Love as the followup single was a white flag.

Tried to be too serious and didn't have an upbeat song along song, which is what put them on the map in the first place.

Bono Nettencourt wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 3:43 am Yeah they tried to make "Little Fighter" Wait pt. 2, but it didn't take.

It didn't help that every VJ/DJ that introduced the song had to explain it's about Greenpeace. Otherwise, it's "what the fuck?"

Big Game was basically White Lion's serious '90s album, released a few years early before every other hair metal band came up with one

I know WTCC went to #3, but White Lion caught lightning in a bottle with "Wait" being so good. They're more of a one-hit-wonder that overachieved than a "why weren't they bigger?" band.

Agree w/ all... plus some ppl tried to push VB as EVHs heir apparent and I just didn't see it...

"Livin' On The Edge" from Big Game should have been a single. That song has a great sing-along chorus.

Love_Industry wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 1:43 am

Tommy2Tone84 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 5:01 pm
Cinderella played 71 dates in the United States. They were in arenas. I’ve seen the Detroit show online and it doesn’t sound like a half empty arena to me. The crowd is going nuts. By contrast, Priest only played 54 US dates that year in arenas as well. They both went gold which is still respectable, good business. I don’t understand why Heartbreak Station didn’t sell more than it did. It’s a good record.

You could say Vestryche got lucky with Silent Lucidity that year too.

Extreme’s Hole-Hearted also got good airplay on MTV. But More Than Words’s success obviously didn’t turn into concert tickets. I don’t understand why. Regardless, they were still a better act than David Lee Roth who had lost Sheehan and Vai within a period of a year and a half.

Yes, Vestryche got lucky with Silent Lucidity indeed. For a short time. One of my favorite bands up to Promised Land and they deserved to be bigger but SL was not representative and I would say it killed the band as they just HAD to have a bunch of DeGarmo ballads on Promised Land, took too long to follow up Empire, and then let "hit songwriter" DeGarmo take over on that piece of crap HITNF.

Both Painkiller and Heartbreak Station are well liked now, but how was it at the time? I remember not everyone liked Painkiller, saying it was an old band trying to ride on the thrash wave when Metallica and Megadeth were getting big. Heartbreak Station.. wasn't it a bit like Slip of the Tongue or something, not hated but it didn't really connect either.

Vestryche did have a number of singles and videos off Empire. But SL was obviously the clear winner that connected with fans and non fans alike. PL wasn’t good. They were jumping the shark in real time. Some bands can hold it together and survive while others can’t. Vest could not. They got worse and worse until they were nothing but wreckage impersonating a once good band.

I wasn’t a big fan of PK but I remember many people singing it’s praises. It’s their Revenge. I personally like their Defenders thru Ram era.

No. Slip of the Tongue still went platinum and had a very successful tour. They ended it by headlining Donington that year.
I think the sheen did start to fade because everyone realized it was the Cov Show, and later, there were whinings and rumblings of not liking Steve Vai. I loved all of it.

To this day I can’t explain the fickle fan base of Cinderella. Maybe they strayed too far from Night Songs? Maybe it was too much Long Cold Winter? I like all three records and felt they deserved a bump up to the next level on Heartbreak. How they lost 2.5 million in sales on that one from their previous two is unexplainable to me all these years later. It’s not like they went from Pride to a Big Game drop in quality.

Mister Freeze wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 3:45 pm ^^^ I was living overseas at the time. "Poison" was definitely a hit in Europe first and probably a little bit bigger over there. Wouldn't compare him to Bon Jovi-level though.

Theaters made sense in the U.S. for that tour. Alice was still in comeback mode and you don't want to overshoot.

I lived in The Netherlands 92-93.
Never heard a peep about hair metal in the scene I was around.
But, fuck, every other week it seemed like the Spin Doctors were playing a show somewhere in the country

the_man_incognito wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 4:50 am
I lived in The Netherlands 92-93.
Never heard a peep about hair metal in the scene I was around.
But, fuck, every other week it seemed like the Spin Doctors were playing a show somewhere in the country

A weird time when the "poodle rockers" became embarrassing 80s holdovers overnight... and at the same time Guns, Leppard, Aerosmith and Van Halen packed arenas all over Europe. Bon Jovi too.... Keep the Faith is another album where I learned on Sludge that it bombed in the US. It was huge this side of the Atlantic.