The piece of shit KISS contract that VInnie kept refusing to sign

[HueyRamone]

Cool article about how shitty the contract was, and the contract itsself!

https://tcarsc.blogspot.com/2011/12/288 ... p.html?m=1

[Black Stuff]

Wow! You would have to be outta your mind to sign that

[rubysdad]

“ Sadly some people can’t differentiate between bad sales and bad music – just because something doesn’t sell it does not mean its bad, conversely just because something does sell, it does mean its good, otherwise we’d be living in a world of Mitch Miller and Liberace. Jesus, even Milli Vanilli sold millions and I defy anyone to tell me the value in that crap.“

Most relevant bit.

[Bono Nettencourt]

“ Sadly some people can’t differentiate between bad sales and bad music – just because something doesn’t sell it does not mean its bad, conversely just because something does sell, it does mean its good, otherwise we’d be living in a world of Mitch Miller and Liberace. Jesus, even Milli Vanilli sold millions and I defy anyone to tell me the value in that crap.“

Most relevant bit.

Nah this is:

[MetalSludgeCEO]

$2k a week in 1983, today is the equivalent of $6,300.00 per week, or $327,000.00 per year!

Not adding, or considering, travel per-diems, and the rest is covered by the band, re: flights, hotels, rehearsals, stage clothes, gear, etc...

I've heard from some various industry friends close to that camp for years, when you're in the band, those guys are also getting Health Insurance, Dental, Eyes, Hair Restoration, and more. Lots of perks being in a world-class act traveling the globe 1st class or Private and staying in 5 Star hotels. At that level is something few get the opportunity to do.

I didn't read the entire thing, but it clearly states "KISS owns everything related", and Vinnie was getting a salary to be in the band.

I don't see this as being a horrible deal, to tour the world (with NO risk of your own) and make twice the amount a Doctor or Lawyer pulls in.

$tEvil

[HueyRamone]

$2k a week in 1983, today is the equivalent of $6,300.00 per week, or $327,000.00 per year!

Not adding, or considering, travel per-diems, and the rest is covered by the band, re: flights, hotels, rehearsals, stage clothes, gear, etc...

I've heard from some various industry friends close to that camp for years, when you're in the band, those guys are also getting Health Insurance, Dental, Eyes, Hair Restoration, and more. Lots of perks being in a world-class act traveling the globe 1st class or Private and staying in 5 Star hotels. At that level is something few get the opportunity to do.

I didn't read the entire thing, but it clearly states "KISS owns everything related", and Vinnie was getting a salary to be in the band.

I don't see this as being a horrible deal, to tour the world (with NO risk of your own) and make twice the amount a Doctor or Lawyer pulls in.

$tEvil

You're right, that amount of $ is huge when you factor in inflation. Since you didnt read everything, KISS was basically saying they owned all his prior songs, and all his future work as well. Its more complicated than that, but the gist is he'd be signing everything away to make a great salary.

That would have been an amazing deal for a Mark St John, but if a songwriter like Vin thought he could have been a platinum artist without them (say his debut was Slaughter's first album, instead of VVI), then he's chaining himself to KISS forever as a salaryman. With hindsight, it might have worked out better than his VVI flameout, but KISS' contract was excessively onerous, and I dont blame him for not bending over and taking it up the ass from them.

[MetalSludgeCEO]

$2k a week in 1983, today is the equivalent of $6,300.00 per week, or $327,000.00 per year!

Not adding, or considering, travel per-diems, and the rest is covered by the band, re: flights, hotels, rehearsals, stage clothes, gear, etc...

I've heard from some various industry friends close to that camp for years, when you're in the band, those guys are also getting Health Insurance, Dental, Eyes, Hair Restoration, and more. Lots of perks being in a world-class act traveling the globe 1st class or Private and staying in 5 Star hotels. At that level is something few get the opportunity to do.

I didn't read the entire thing, but it clearly states "KISS owns everything related", and Vinnie was getting a salary to be in the band.

I don't see this as being a horrible deal, to tour the world (with NO risk of your own) and make twice the amount a Doctor or Lawyer pulls in.

$tEvil

You're right, that amount of $ is huge when you factor in inflation. Since you didnt read everything, KISS was basically saying they owned all his prior songs, and all his future work as well. Its more complicated than that, but the gist is he'd be signing everything away to make a great salary.

That would have been an amazing deal for a Mark St John, but if a songwriter like Vin thought he could have been a platinum artist without them (say his debut was Slaughter's first album, instead of VVI), then he's chaining himself to KISS forever as a salaryman. With hindsight, it might have worked out better than his VVI flameout, but KISS' contract was excessively onerous, and I dont blame him for not bending over and taking it up the ass from them.

Yeah... I get it, and recall hearing about, or reading about that.

But... here is the kicker...

Poison signed to Enigma, for a sh!t deal. They were given like $15-20k to make a record, and weren't promised a thing.

Motley Crue, Metallica, and others... even less. Signed to small indy deals, with contracts there were HORRIBLE for their career.

However, they signed that horrible deal anyway, which was lackluster for sure and took the chance. They bet on themselves.

Then... after they sold huge and went Gold, then Platinum and Dbl Platinum... they turned around and said: "Hey, guess what Mr. Record Label... why don't you talk to our Lawyer about the next record, budget, points, advance, etc..."

Like a walk-on sports player, whether baseball, basketball or football... show up as a nobody, and prove your worth. Then, when it goes to another level, and they KNOW it's because of you... you will have more bargaining power.

With that... I am sure many will say; "Wasn't "Lick It Up" enough proof?" Well, sure... of course that was a great point, and something to hang your hat when fighting for a better deal. I 100% agree.

We all know now... Vinnie has proven to be not of sound mind even 40 years later... with delusional thoughts, decisions and more. I am sure he was 10x the nightmare when he was younger, riding the wave of success and feeling empowered.

Now, looking back, and knowing a lot of what Vinnie did with VVI, and since, where he's clearly been VERY delusional and way out to lunch with his ideas, offers, and follow-through when it came to promises and the like. Let's also look at Gene, Paul & KISS, over the time since... it's night and day.

In the end, Vinnie is exactly where he should be, with many others who sh!t the bed with their opportunities in their bands, other's bands, their career and more.

Kiss won, Vinnie lost. Kiss was right, Vinnie was wrong. The same could apply to the guys in Slaughter, as they won, and Vinnie lost again!

Then... the fans... Vinnie won (took their money) and the Fans all lost. Many of whom got burned from the guy over and over.

I am #teamkiss

$tEvil

[FreddyFender]

Keeping 100% of nothing rarely pays off.

[greengoblinrulz]

With the time period, I assume this was perhaps common practice as it seems to be close to the deal that Jake E Lee signed with OZZY giving him every part of the song writing royalties/publishing for a couple albums.

Part that got me was that VV wasnt allowed to play anything that wrote in a side project. How can you stop that since any cover band can play a song as long as the legalities were followed with the venues.

To the main question again, nobody that we know of held a gun to his head & forced him to sign. Really strong possiblity that without KISS, nobody would know who Vinnie was today. Its a sell your soul to the devil deal, but how many others would've loved to take that same deal.

[El Vampiro Blanco]

Just from a statistics point of view alone, Vinnie should have signed that contract. That was a shit ton of money, especially from a band at one of their lowest points.
Chances of anyone making it big on their own are astonishingly low and this was a chance to make big money, make a name for himself without the risks and put himself in a good position to negotiate later if needed.
The guy was married with twin daughters for Christ sake, take the money and provide for your family...

[rubysdad]

“ Sadly some people can’t differentiate between bad sales and bad music – just because something doesn’t sell it does not mean its bad, conversely just because something does sell, it does mean its good, otherwise we’d be living in a world of Mitch Miller and Liberace. Jesus, even Milli Vanilli sold millions and I defy anyone to tell me the value in that crap.“

Most relevant bit.

Nah this is:

Yeah, maybe.
He looks great bald.

[VinnieVincentsVag]

The guy was married with twin daughters for Christ sake, take the money and provide for your family...

I didn’t know Vinnie was even pregnant in the past, but it all makes sense now.

[pieceofme]

The guy was married with twin daughters for Christ sake, take the money and provide for your family...

I didn’t know Vinnie was even pregnant in the past, but it all makes sense now.

Who would have been closer to the action than you?

[VinnieVincentsVag]

The guy was married with twin daughters for Christ sake, take the money and provide for your family...

I didn’t know Vinnie was even pregnant in the past, but it all makes sense now.

Who would have been closer to the action than you?

Touché

[HueyRamone]

The guy was married with twin daughters for Christ sake, take the money and provide for your family...

I didn’t know Vinnie was even pregnant in the past, but it all makes sense now.

Who would have been closer to the action than you?

King Brian, probably.

[DemonFilth2001]

I didn’t know Vinnie was even pregnant in the past, but it all makes sense now.

Who would have been closer to the action than you?

King Brian, probably.

[El Vampiro Blanco]

With the time period, I assume this was perhaps common practice as it seems to be close to the deal that Jake E Lee signed with OZZY giving him every part of the song writing royalties/publishing for a couple albums.

Jake got a lump sum of a hundred grand for all his songwriting on Bark At The Moon. He was happy with that. Then he realised all the money was in songwriting and refused to show up to TUS sessions unless he was going to get songwriting credits, so he did.

And then he sold them to the Osbournes after he got fired because he did not want the 'hassle' of having to go after his money with the Osbournes.
Dumbfuck move...

By the way, Daisley is quoting figures much much lower for the lump sums he received, so either Jake negotiated better or that 100 grand is inflated.
Even Lemmy, being such a good friend of Oz, said he received 50K for his No More Tears work in a lump sum and he was very happy with it...

[kingbrian74]

Who would have been closer to the action than you?

King Brian, probably.

Ha! I AM a big fan…..

[RaceFan3]

How has Vinnie managed to pay his bills/keep a house, etc. since the end of VVI? Has he been living on songwriting royalties from KISS this whole time? Wouldn't those have dried up long ago? He has a decent list of credits but most of them are one-offs from the 70s/80s plus compilations and tribute albums...does that stuff add up to a decent penny? Even the recent secret weird ass fan convention things for $500 apiece can't be more than a flash-in-the-pan income. Just legit curious how a guy like that has remained afloat.

[HueyRamone]

Even Lemmy, being such a good friend of Oz, said he received 50K for his No More Tears work in a lump sum and he was very happy with it...

Jesus christ is that all? I also saw a Lemmy quote where Lemmy said he made more from NMT than his whole Motorhead career up till that point, and if 50K is the number, that's just sad.

[El Vampiro Blanco]

Even Lemmy, being such a good friend of Oz, said he received 50K for his No More Tears work in a lump sum and he was very happy with it...

Jesus christ is that all? I also saw a Lemmy quote where Lemmy said he made more from NMT than his whole Motorhead career up till that point, and if 50K is the number, that's just sad.

Well, when Motorhead sold some records in the UK they were on a shit deal and afterwards they never sold any records anywhere.
The quote was he made more from No More Tears than from all Motorhead records combined up til that point. They did make coin from touring and merch. That Motorhead snaggletooth shirt must have made good money.
Couple that with hardly any airplay and there you go...

[El Vampiro Blanco]

How has Vinnie managed to pay his bills/keep a house, etc. since the end of VVI? Has he been living on songwriting royalties from KISS this whole time? Wouldn't those have dried up long ago? He has a decent list of credits but most of them are one-offs from the 70s/80s plus compilations and tribute albums...does that stuff add up to a decent penny? Even the recent secret weird ass fan convention things for $500 apiece can't be more than a flash-in-the-pan income. Just legit curious how a guy like that has remained afloat.

I think Vinnie lived off his wife who worked at city hall or the court house.
By now I guess he gets some social security? Not sure how much that is in the US...

[El Vampiro Blanco]

Even Lemmy, being such a good friend of Oz, said he received 50K for his No More Tears work in a lump sum and he was very happy with it...

Jesus christ is that all? I also saw a Lemmy quote where Lemmy said he made more from NMT than his whole Motorhead career up till that point, and if 50K is the number, that's just sad.

Well, when Motorhead sold some records in the UK they were on a shit deal and afterwards they never sold any records anywhere.
The quote was he made more from No More Tears than from all Motorhead records combined up til that point. They did make coin from touring and merch. That Motorhead snaggletooth shirt must have made good money.
Couple that with hardly any airplay and there you go...

[MetalSludgeCEO]

TUFF signed to Atlantic Records in 1990.

In 1991 the band had run over $ 500,000.00 through our hands, and my Tax return for the same year says I made $ 11,000.00.

The next year (1992) Atlantic Records gave us $ 5,000.00 to record Demos for Record #2. We recorded 9 songs, finished 6 and after hearing the tape, we were dropped the next day.

Bye, good luck, see ya later. Etc...

I took that set of Demos, then sold it to Grand Slamm/IRS Records for $ 7,500.00 in 1993. Not a lot of money, but it was all in our pockets as the tracks had been already done.

That label went tits up 6 months later, and we were without a label again.

I took those same tracks, and decided "F#@k ALL these labels" and formed RLS Records to self-release, self-distribute, and do it all on my own.

This included paying for Mastering, buying a UPC (Bar Code), setting up a business (DBA, LLC), finding a graphic artist, and eventually the companies to manufacture both CD and Cassettes.

The "Fist First" record was finally released in 1994. In a few short months, we moved a few thousand (2k) units, and soon some Indy labels were courting us again.

I then signed a deal with MMS/Mausoleum Records, who originally offered us (me) $ 2,500.00 for the "Fist First" masters, and I told them... "Not a F'ing chance!"

We went back n' forth, and as I've told this before, I asked them for $30,000.00 and 5,000 pieces of product once the "NEW" release was done and manufactured.

My manager at the time, and everyone else thought I was NUTS, and they would NEVER give me anywhere near that. But... I held my ground and negotiated back n' forth, respectively and in time... they started to come up, offering us $ 6,000.00, I said "Nope", then it was $ 7,500.00 and I said "Nope" and so on.

After a month or two... they offered me $ 15,000.00 and 3,000 copies of the finished product, and I said "You have a deal!"

Over the next 6-12 months, all went as planned... they gave me $5k upon signing, another $5k when we were finished with the (3) NEW tracks they also paid to have done, and the final $5k when the record was officially released.

They also started sending me product. A UPS truck pulled up shortly after the label released it, and I rec'd 10 boxes, of 100 copies of "Religious Fix" on CD. Plus some cassettes.

A month later, another 1,000 pieces were shipped to me, and eventually the final 1,000! All for the band, to Sell at shows, and keep the money!

I've never sat down and crunched ALL of the numbers, but I would bet... that if I did, those same songs, the Demo that Atlantic gave us a mere $5k to record, over time, I feel confident to say with all of the moving, shaking, re-selling, over the years, I brought in between $100-150k from that initial chunk of money. Maybe more!

I guess my point of this is... every deal, every path, to success, or failure is each person's, band's, or artist's. Vinnie was give multiple chances, to better his situation and sh!t the bed on pretty much all of them!

Because it's easy to throw it out there... Bach was handed a Golden Goose, Silver Spoon and the Golden Ticket for sure when he joined Skid Row, and soon the dream became a reality to the tune of 5 million sold, world tours in arenas and stadiums, and more. Of course he played in sh!t bands and clubs for 2-3 years as a teen, and don't doubt his talent, and the package he was as a frontman. But... without Jon and Doc... NOT a bit of that happens for that band.

Poison, Motley, Metallica, Slayer, Lit, Sugar Ray, Green Day, Pantera, and many others, started from literally nothing in their garage and played their cards right to get where they got.

Vinnie Vincent... is absolutely one of the biggest colossal failures and a cluster-f#@k of the highest order. How many other guys played in KISS, that had a similar opportunity? 5-6, Kulick, Singer, Thayer, Carr, St. John and Vinnie. All have seemingly lead a good life, and their relation to this iconic global juggernaut of a group, has helped them pave their way for a career spanning decades. Of course Eric Carr died early from Cancer, and St. John had some similar health issues.

In the end... Vinnie sh!t the bed big time! Anyone who doesn't agree, is out of their F#@king mind. The guy was given more than 1 chance with the band in the early days, and subsequently was handed a HUGE record deal, based on his time in KISS with his VVI project. And... even though it was ALL his, and he was 100% in control, he ruined that too.

And guess what happened when his entire band quit on him, and left him to strike out on their own? They sold millions of records, and to this day all 3 of those guys are healthy, happy, and successful.

Never-mind the failed marriages and a past of wreckage in both his personal and professional life.

As for the headline of this thread, noting it was a "A piece of Sh!t contract" ... ha, non-sense.

Was it really a "Sh!t contract" or was Vinnie a "Sh!t human"?

I will choose the latter!

$tEvil

[Love_Industry]

With the time period, I assume this was perhaps common practice as it seems to be close to the deal that Jake E Lee signed with OZZY giving him every part of the song writing royalties/publishing for a couple albums.

If the contract said Vinnie had to give up songwriting and publishing rights for the songs he wrote that were recorded by Kiss and released on LIU, and even on future Kiss albums, I am sure he would have signed.

But this contract also made him give up anything he wrote before joining Kiss, all unreleased material and (part of?) everything he wrote and recorded outside Kiss. Had he signed it, P&G would have been paid for the VVI albums, and the songs Vinnie wrote for Happy Days in the 1970s. Kiss would have owned VV's music for life.

Someone who only writes the odd song here and there like Mark St John or Eric Singer may have found it reasonable, but songwriting was Vinnie's main source of income before joining Kiss and in 1984 I am sure he expected to continue writing songs in and out of Kiss. Signing the contract looked like a big financial loss for him.

[Love_Industry]

How has Vinnie managed to pay his bills/keep a house, etc. since the end of VVI? Has he been living on songwriting royalties from KISS this whole time? Wouldn't those have dried up long ago? He has a decent list of credits but most of them are one-offs from the 70s/80s plus compilations and tribute albums...does that stuff add up to a decent penny? Even the recent secret weird ass fan convention things for $500 apiece can't be more than a flash-in-the-pan income. Just legit curious how a guy like that has remained afloat.

I think Vinnie lived off his wife who worked at city hall or the court house.
By now I guess he gets some social security? Not sure how much that is in the US...

From this it doesn't seem like she was in any capacity to work, at least after Vinnie told her to move out of the house. She seems to have become an out of control drunk:
https://ultimateclassicrock.com/vinnie- ... ns-arrest/

Vinnie's mother passed away just a few years ago, 2021.
https://abriola.com/tribute/details/539 ... tuary.html

[Wednesday 13 Fan]

With the time period, I assume this was perhaps common practice as it seems to be close to the deal that Jake E Lee signed with OZZY giving him every part of the song writing royalties/publishing for a couple albums.

If the contract said Vinnie had to give up songwriting and publishing rights for the songs he wrote that were recorded by Kiss and released on LIU, and even on future Kiss albums, I am sure he would have signed.

But this contract also made him give up anything he wrote before joining Kiss, all unreleased material and (part of?) everything he wrote and recorded outside Kiss. Had he signed it, P&G would have been paid for the VVI albums, and the songs Vinnie wrote for Happy Days in the 1970s. Kiss would have owned VV's music for life.

Someone who only writes the odd song here and there like Mark St John or Eric Singer may have found it reasonable, but songwriting was Vinnie's main source of income before joining Kiss and in 1984 I am sure he expected to continue writing songs in and out of Kiss. Signing the contract looked like a big financial loss for him.

Vinnie didn't write music for Happy Days in the 70s. He did so briefly in the 80s, along with Joanie Loves Chachi.

How much could the royalties possibly be?

[kingbrian74]

How has Vinnie managed to pay his bills/keep a house, etc. since the end of VVI? Has he been living on songwriting royalties from KISS this whole time? Wouldn't those have dried up long ago? He has a decent list of credits but most of them are one-offs from the 70s/80s plus compilations and tribute albums...does that stuff add up to a decent penny? Even the recent secret weird ass fan convention things for $500 apiece can't be more than a flash-in-the-pan income. Just legit curious how a guy like that has remained afloat.

I’m
Assuming Vinnie gets royalties from his time in KISS, he got a huge deal with VVI, and I’m sure he negotiated a decent payday for his writing on Revenge. Vinnie is not scared to ask for what he thinks he is worth.

Also, keep in mind Vinnie sued KISS a few times, and most lawsuits end in a settlement, as it is generally a cheaper alternative than going to court. So he may have got some mi eh from the KISS organization that way as well….but I am just speculating. I do kit know that to be the case.

He also lives a very simple life. He doesn’t seem to be maki f extravagant purchases and the guitars he plays, he has had for many years.

He may be good with managing the mi runner does have.

[El Vampiro Blanco]

How has Vinnie managed to pay his bills/keep a house, etc. since the end of VVI? Has he been living on songwriting royalties from KISS this whole time? Wouldn't those have dried up long ago? He has a decent list of credits but most of them are one-offs from the 70s/80s plus compilations and tribute albums...does that stuff add up to a decent penny? Even the recent secret weird ass fan convention things for $500 apiece can't be more than a flash-in-the-pan income. Just legit curious how a guy like that has remained afloat.

I’m
Assuming Vinnie gets royalties from his time in KISS, he got a huge deal with VVI, and I’m sure he negotiated a decent payday for his writing on Revenge. Vinnie is not scared to ask for what he thinks he is worth.

Also, keep in mind Vinnie sued KISS a few times, and most lawsuits end in a settlement, as it is generally a cheaper alternative than going to court. So he may have got some mi eh from the KISS organization that way as well….but I am just speculating. I do kit know that to be the case.

He also lives a very simple life. He doesn’t seem to be maki f extravagant purchases and the guitars he plays, he has had for many years.

He may be good with managing the mi runner does have.

I think he actually lost the lawsuits and his royalties were re-directed to Gene and Paul until he had paid off the costs they incurred for their lawyers etc.
VVI I think never recouped their advances...

[MetalSludgeCEO]

How has Vinnie managed to pay his bills/keep a house, etc. since the end of VVI? Has he been living on songwriting royalties from KISS this whole time? Wouldn't those have dried up long ago? He has a decent list of credits but most of them are one-offs from the 70s/80s plus compilations and tribute albums...does that stuff add up to a decent penny? Even the recent secret weird ass fan convention things for $500 apiece can't be more than a flash-in-the-pan income. Just legit curious how a guy like that has remained afloat.

I’m
Assuming Vinnie gets royalties from his time in KISS, he got a huge deal with VVI, and I’m sure he negotiated a decent payday for his writing on Revenge. Vinnie is not scared to ask for what he thinks he is worth.

Also, keep in mind Vinnie sued KISS a few times, and most lawsuits end in a settlement, as it is generally a cheaper alternative than going to court. So he may have got some mi eh from the KISS organization that way as well….but I am just speculating. I do kit know that to be the case.

He also lives a very simple life. He doesn’t seem to be maki f extravagant purchases and the guitars he plays, he has had for many years.

He may be good with managing the mi runner does have.

More delusional stuff from a Vinnie Vincent fan, follower, fanatic. Lol.


"""""""""""""he got a huge deal with VVI"""""""""""" sure... but... it was almost 40 years ago! Even if he pocketed $400-500k... it's 4 decades later.


"""""""""""""""keep in mind Vinnie sued KISS a few times, and most lawsuits end in a settlement,"""""""""""""" I am going to go out on a limb... and I am pretty sure, he lost all of those suits!


"""""""""""""but I am just speculating. """""""""""""" Most of your opinions on this clown are this as well... all speculation.


""""""""""""""""""He also lives a very simple life.""""""""""""""""""" More speculation, even though I would absolutely agree. But he's living a very simple life, because he doesn't have the means to live a luxurious life!


"""""""""""""""""He doesn’t seem to be maki f extravagant purchases""""""""""""""""" More speculation, but again, I would agree, as he has NO resources or money to make extravagant purchases.


"""""""""""""""He may be good with managing................ """"""""""""" You lost me here... really?

Do you really think Vinnie is good at managing anything at this point?

I mean... not to throw the guy under the bus, or you for being a lunatic fanatic... but... we could quiz 100 people who have been closely associated with VV in Kiss, his projects to follow, and even in recent years, the attempts and failures he's had... and my money is on 85-90% of those involved would give him a horrible review.

If VV was on Yelp... it would amazing to read the comments.

Especially yours, as you describe how you paid $500.00 to walk into a rehearsal space and watch him play acoustic for an hour!

WTF Bro!

$tEvil