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I'm a Sykes nutswinger and a Whitesnake super fan, but I absolutely hated this record when it came out. Traded it pretty much immediately, don't remember it all.

Decided to revisit it tonight with Sykes passing.

1. Riot - Decent song. Why is everything DRENCHED in reverb?? The guitars sound small and weak due to all the reverb. The bass player overplays everything, and the fretless bass makes the overplaying jump out even more. Can't tell if I don't like Carmine's drum sound, or just what he's playing.

2. Sex Child. Is that bass tapping??? Ugh. Guitar once again sounds tiny and drenched in reverb. The lyrics/melody here are absolutely terrible, which is a shame because the music is great and I bet Coverdale and Sykes together could have done something with it. Recycled the transition to the bridge from Still of the Night. Killer solo.

3. Valley of the Kings. Tony Martin from Black Sabbath wrote this during his ten minutes with the band, and it sounds exactly like something from Martin-era Sabbath. Sykes is obviously doing all of Martin's phrasing and runs. Releasing this as a single sank the band with MTV, and I'm not surprised. It's an interesting song, but it's not a single and needs a better singer and a bass player that doesn't just play notes that sound like straight up farts throughout.

4. Jelly Roll. If Coverdale had sang this, it would have been better than most of what was on SOTT. Sykes can technically sing but his voice doesn't have enough personality. Chorus doesn't really feel like a chorus. The song is almost over when it gets to the "love can break your heart" part, which is way more chorus-y. And again, the bass player should have been fired for overplaying all over the place.... what the fuck is he doing during the bridge??? Can't believe Bob Rock of all people didn't say "play a p-bass with frets on it and play the fucking root note when the singer is singing."

5. Blue Murder. Killer riff! Not much of a song, but there's an awesome solo. That kinda sums up the record actually.

6. Out of Love. Okay, we've hit the ballad. The fretless bass is appropriate here. Sykes is doing those "Is This Love" harmony lines and they sound divine. Once again. was there a chorus here? This album is like that episode of the Sopranos where the engineer gets pissed because band's the choruses are just more verses. Nice solo.

7. Billy. Kinda sounds like a mix of Thin Lizzy and Skid Row. Has some cool and interesting parts.... one of the better songs. The farty fretless bass being given equal space to the guitar is seriously this record's downfall.

8. Ptolemy. This riff sucks. How is the song 6-and-a-half minutes????? This is Sykes "Judgement Day."

9. Black-Hearted Woman. Fast riff time! Shitty Dokken wannabe song, complete with a George Lynch-wannabe solo.

Okay, that was a SLOG to get through. In summary: there are no songs and the production is AWFUL. Comparing this to Dr. Feelgood, which Bob Rock also did in 1989, makes Blue Murder sound like a cheap demo. The original lineup with Ray Gillin/Tony Martin and Cozy Powell would have been an improvement, but there is no saving these songs.

“Valley of the Kings” is basically an Egyptian-themed ripoff of Rainbow’s “Stargazer”, but it works and it sounds awesome. “Jelly Roll” is awesome as well, and “Blue Murder” is pretty solid. The rest of the album doesn’t exactly match those three, but it’s still decent enough Zep/‘Snake clonage. 6/10 for me.

I brought it back then.
Liked Jelly Roll, but thought all the other songs were, well not the songs but the way he sang them.
I don’t know the proper term but his phrasing never changed.
Became boring very quickly.

Mister Freeze wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:37 pm I bought the record back in 1989. It bored me back then.

I'm listening to it again now because of this thread. The production is actually pretty fuckin' great. To be fair, I'm listening to it via Spotify on my cell phone.

I'm sorta appreciating it a little more. But it's not like it deserved more attention than it got upon release.

John Sykes is like Richie Sambora. He's better off in the "underrated" side man role than taking the spotlight as lead singer.

Your analogies are brilliant.

Mister Freeze wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:10 pm Just finished up. Album has a cool vibe ... in a "playing in the background" sense.

"Out of Love" and "Billy" are pretty good tracks in the second half of the album. "Black-Hearted Woman" sounds like a Whitesnake outtake.

You basically have half a great Whitesnake album here. There's an alternate timeline in which Sykes and Coverdale sorted out their differences and recorded a successful follow-up to the '87 album and Blue Murder never existed.

That sounds like a better alternative timeline. But is it the same one where quiet riot maintained their success and they headlined the stadium tour instead of Motley Crue?

pieceofme wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:23 pm That sounds like a better alternative timeline. But is it the same one where quiet riot maintained their success and they headlined the stadium tour instead of Motley Crue?

I think there's an alternate history where Quiet Riot had some kind of Desmond Child comeback hit around '88 - like Joan Jett and Alice Cooper.

Somewhere in the multiverse, Twisted Sister had one of those comeback hits too.

Mister Freeze wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:53 pm

pieceofme wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:23 pm That sounds like a better alternative timeline. But is it the same one where quiet riot maintained their success and they headlined the stadium tour instead of Motley Crue?

I think there's an alternate history where Quiet Riot had some kind of Desmond Child comeback hit around '88 - like Joan Jett and Alice Cooper.

Somewhere in the multiverse, Twisted Sister had one of those comeback hits too.

They opened for Icon on their massive 1991 - 93 world tour. In the same alternate universe, Guns'n Roses are a beloved cult band that was never able to recover after Axl became a born again Christian and left after Lies.

I liked it back then, but don't remember is standing up well last time I listened.

Went to see this tour at Summers on the Beach in Miami when I was 16 and it was an 18+ venue. Met Sykes outside of a Subway and told him we couldn't get it and he told someone who then took us in through a side door and said, "stand here and don't move". Watched the show from the corner of the stage and Syke's Marshall melted my face all night. One of the best tone's I have ever heard.

FreddyFender wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 6:51 pm
3. Valley of the Kings. Releasing this as a single sank the band with MTV, and I'm not surprised. It's an interesting song, but it's not a single and needs a better singer and a bass player that doesn't just play notes that sound like straight up farts throughout.

Disagree completely. This video was all over MTV and the radio edit got played a lot. It didn't sink the band - it's the only reason people knew who Blue Murder were.

Mister Freeze wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:53 pm

pieceofme wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:23 pm That sounds like a better alternative timeline. But is it the same one where quiet riot maintained their success and they headlined the stadium tour instead of Motley Crue?

I think there's an alternate history where Quiet Riot had some kind of Desmond Child comeback hit around '88 - like Joan Jett and Alice Cooper.

Somewhere in the multiverse, Twisted Sister had one of those comeback hits too.

And Ratt post-'91, too, after Robbin cleaned up.

HoldenSSV wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 5:28 am

FreddyFender wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 6:51 pm
3. Valley of the Kings. Releasing this as a single sank the band with MTV, and I'm not surprised. It's an interesting song, but it's not a single and needs a better singer and a bass player that doesn't just play notes that sound like straight up farts throughout.

Disagree completely. This video was all over MTV and the radio edit got played a lot. It didn't sink the band - it's the only reason people knew who Blue Murder were.

Tony Franklin said MTV was unhappy the results after pushing Valley of the Kings and as a result refused to play Jelly Roll outside of Dial/HBB.

Blue Murder ST is definitely a "guy/guitar guy" album, no songs that were going to have crossover appeal. "Billy" or "Jelly Roll" would have been a better choice as the lead single/singles.

Sykes solo album "20th Century" is pretty good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiAVmiFKVh0

And his "Bad Boy Live" CD has a good mix of Whitesnake, Thin Lizzy, Blue Murder and solo material.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPmm5ieX374

And (and) I actually really like the live Thin Lizzy CD with Sykes on lead vocals/guitar "One Night Only" (2000)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af9MAtuv4iE

What I heard was horrible.

Jelly Roll - First of that british-ass title is like designed to put off US listeners. You call your shit "Cherry Pie" if you want a hit, not fucking "Jelly Roll". What the fuck is a jelly roll, anyway? If I dont know what a fucking Jelly Roll is, none of the burnouts in my highschool do either.

Second, it;s a wussy ass love song, call it "Love Can Break Your Heart" if you want a Steelheart-style hit.

Third, as someone said, get to that part quicker and often. You only get 1 shot, and you're famous for the poppiest of Whitesnake. Stop getting cute.

fourth, that "she said" shit is annoying as fuck

Valley of the Kings - I think it's, uh, not good. There's good and there's not good. This is not good. Music is music. Talent is talent. I don't care who you are. And i've seen them all. I saw heavy metal invented by hendrix at the cafe wha. Kid just came out of the army. I said to him, "kid, i don't know what you call it-- talent, charisma, magic-- but you've got it." This Blue Murder shit, they don't. Sorry. There's one constant in the music business-- a hit is a hit. And this, my friend, is not a hit.

Funny bit from Ron Young from Little Caesar about Blue Murder: told Kalodner they were a flop, right in front of Geffen execs.

We were getting ready to go up to work with Bob Rock [in Vancouver] when John Kalodner and Bob got into a fight over Blue Murder. John wanted Bob to get back into the studio with them and we just sat around with our thumbs up our asses when that got resolved. There were all of these spats and fights that delayed things… Jimmy Iovine felt that if we had John Kalodner onboard working on the project we’d improve our powerbase at the label. John started to stick his two cents in and things just went “downhill.” I clearly remember walking down the hallways of the Geffen Records offices and he was having a little listening session in his office for the first Blue Murder single. So he pulls me in there and he has all the label guys in there and they’re all bobbing their heads, the song ends and they’re all like “Oh, it sounds amazing” and this and that. Then he asks me what I think. I said, “There’s no hook!” It was like I farted in church. [laughs] He looks at me as says; “What are you talking about?! Don’t you hear those drum sounds?!” I said, “Kids don’t buy drum sounds?! I don’t know what you guys think?! I mean it sounds good, but there’s no hook!” [laughs] It was from there forward that John was really angry at me. [laughs]

FreddyFender wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:21 am Funny bit from Ron Young from Little Caesar about Blue Murder: told Kalodner they were a flop, right in front of Geffen execs.

Ron was right. Wonder which Geffen /Bob Rock production bombed harder. Little Caesar or Blue Murder....

Love_Industry wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 11:41 am

FreddyFender wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:21 am Funny bit from Ron Young from Little Caesar about Blue Murder: told Kalodner they were a flop, right in front of Geffen execs.

Ron was right. Wonder which Geffen /Bob Rock production bombed harder. Little Caesar or Blue Murder....

Ehh. When your first single is a shitty Urethra Franklin cover, you really don't have a lot of room to criticize anybody.

Sykes should have went the Lynch Mob route-
Been the star guitarist but with a singer

John Sykes is a great guitar player.

The Blue Murder album sucks balls.

Both are true, it's okay to admit it.

HoldenSSV wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 5:28 am

FreddyFender wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2025 6:51 pm
3. Valley of the Kings. Releasing this as a single sank the band with MTV, and I'm not surprised. It's an interesting song, but it's not a single and needs a better singer and a bass player that doesn't just play notes that sound like straight up farts throughout.

Disagree completely. This video was all over MTV and the radio edit got played a lot. It didn't sink the band - it's the only reason people knew who Blue Murder were.

And it was the reason that they didn't care about hearing the rest of the record...

wasn’t this bass player in The Firm?

was fretless seen as the next step in virtuosity at the time?
I remember “tears in heaven” & Phil Collins’ “wish it would rain down” had some fairly prominent fretless bass

ptolemy was the song that taught me how to get gnarly pinch harmonics so i'm in his debt for that...d.m.

DangerZone wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:58 pm wasn’t this bass player in The Firm?

was fretless seen as the next step in virtuosity at the time?
I remember “tears in heaven” & Phil Collins’ “wish it would rain down” had some fairly prominent fretless bass

yes...it was tony franklin from the firm...d.m.

DangerZone wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:58 pm was fretless seen as the next step in virtuosity at the time?

Not really. It was unheard of in hard rock and metal outside maybe a few ballads adopting the 80s pop sound (and thus fretless bass).

Bob Rock had no idea what to do with it, although I suspect it was Syke's call to feature the bass just a prominently as the guitar on Blue Murder. It was an intentional choice to make the bass sound separate from the guitar 100% of the time, instead of mixing to a more blended sound like 99% of rock and metal.

Steve Di Giorgio brought fretless to metal the right way on Testament's The Gathering some years later - playing tastefully, not throwing licks all over the place to show off. In Testament, outside of a few choice moments, you don't notice the bass is fretless. Meanwhile on Blue Murder.... it's all you hear.

It was a gimmick, and it was Franklin's gimmick, along with his two-tone spiked hairdo and shirtless parachute pants look. Surprisingly, he dissappeared after the 80s...

HoldenSSV wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:07 pm

Love_Industry wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 11:41 am

FreddyFender wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:21 am Funny bit from Ron Young from Little Caesar about Blue Murder: told Kalodner they were a flop, right in front of Geffen execs.

Ron was right. Wonder which Geffen /Bob Rock production bombed harder. Little Caesar or Blue Murder....

Ehh. When your first single is a shitty Urethra Franklin cover, you really don't have a lot of room to criticize anybody.

I actually like that cover of "Chain of Fools". And the ballad "In Your Arms" actually managed to cross over to the lowermost reaches of the Hot 100, so it wasn't a total loss. I would have loved for "Hard Times" to be released as a single. They might have done better if that one was their first single.

masterpiece

Here’s an interesting live performance on the Weird Al show:

https://youtu.be/npoUI1obH_M?si=prQ3VuyW8CgIV6oC

dmbrocker wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 5:47 pm

HoldenSSV wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:07 pm

Love_Industry wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 11:41 am
Ron was right. Wonder which Geffen /Bob Rock production bombed harder. Little Caesar or Blue Murder....

Ehh. When your first single is a shitty Urethra Franklin cover, you really don't have a lot of room to criticize anybody.

I actually like that cover of "Chain of Fools". And the ballad "In Your Arms" actually managed to cross over to the lowermost reaches of the Hot 100, so it wasn't a total loss. I would have loved for "Hard Times" to be released as a single. They might have done better if that one was their first single.

Little Caesar had a great lead single on their hands with "Name Your Poison" (which got left behind and wasted on an independent EP) and a singer who couldn't help but sound great on radio. But Geffen somehow found a way to mess it up.

Mister Freeze wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:28 pm

dmbrocker wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 5:47 pm

HoldenSSV wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:07 pm

Ehh. When your first single is a shitty Urethra Franklin cover, you really don't have a lot of room to criticize anybody.

I actually like that cover of "Chain of Fools". And the ballad "In Your Arms" actually managed to cross over to the lowermost reaches of the Hot 100, so it wasn't a total loss. I would have loved for "Hard Times" to be released as a single. They might have done better if that one was their first single.

Little Caesar had a great lead single on their hands with "Name Your Poison" (which got left behind and wasted on an independent EP) and a singer who couldn't help but sound great on radio. But Geffen somehow found a way to mess it up.

They also wasted the great "Down to the Wire" On a shitty Metal Blade compilation.