Metal Sludge Gossip Board

I'm not a musician so I'm a little puzzled how he does this. All evidence says he can't play for shit. Their first producer said he sucked when he first heard him and he hasn't been playing live for like 20 years now. He's been their main songwriter though. So how can someone write music when they can't play well?

Venus Flytrap wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:52 pm I'm not a musician so I'm a little puzzled how he does this. All evidence says he can't play for shit. Their first producer said he sucked when he first heard him and he hasn't been playing live for like 20 years now. He's been their main songwriter though. So how can someone write music when they can't play well?

Naturally good at writing lyrics and chord changes, and relies on Mick for the riffage, I'd think.
Not playing your bass in time that well doesnt have much to do with songwriting.

Someone said Tommy had a lot to do with the songwriting, and that's an even bigger head scratcher

Venus Flytrap wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:52 pm I'm not a musician so I'm a little puzzled how he does this. All evidence says he can't play for shit. Their first producer said he sucked when he first heard him and he hasn't been playing live for like 20 years now. He's been their main songwriter though. So how can someone write music when they can't play well?

Poison sold millions too, and there was no Yngwie or Neil Peart in their band either...

It's not always about how many chops you have...

$tEvil

HueyRamone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:55 pm

Venus Flytrap wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:52 pm I'm not a musician so I'm a little puzzled how he does this. All evidence says he can't play for shit. Their first producer said he sucked when he first heard him and he hasn't been playing live for like 20 years now. He's been their main songwriter though. So how can someone write music when they can't play well?

Naturally good at writing lyrics and chord changes, and relies on Mick for the riffage, I'd think.
Not playing your bass in time that well doesnt have much to do with songwriting.

Someone said Tommy had a lot to do with the songwriting, and that's an even bigger head scratcher

I will back up that claim about Tommy.. . I have had the opportunity to watch Motley stand in a circle and learn a song from scratch during sound check.. the song was U2's "new years day".. the song was Mick's idea since it was new years eve here in Detroit..while they would be trying to play along with it to figure it out. Tommy would stop playing and come down and show Mick where the melody notes were on the guitar... he had a really good ear.. was pretty cool to witness it..

MOON wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 7:47 pm

HueyRamone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:55 pm

Venus Flytrap wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:52 pm I'm not a musician so I'm a little puzzled how he does this. All evidence says he can't play for shit. Their first producer said he sucked when he first heard him and he hasn't been playing live for like 20 years now. He's been their main songwriter though. So how can someone write music when they can't play well?

Naturally good at writing lyrics and chord changes, and relies on Mick for the riffage, I'd think.
Not playing your bass in time that well doesnt have much to do with songwriting.

Someone said Tommy had a lot to do with the songwriting, and that's an even bigger head scratcher

I will back up that claim about Tommy.. . I have had the opportunity to watch Motley stand in a circle and learn a song from scratch during sound check.. the song was U2's "new years day".. the song was Mick's idea since it was new years eve here in Detroit..while they would be trying to play along with it to figure it out. Tommy would stop playing and come down and show Mick where the melody notes were on the guitar... he had a really good ear.. was pretty cool to witness it..

I third this. Was blessed with an opportunity to see them in Sweden.
They wanted to learn an ABBA song, was Nikki’s idea.
Tommy ran down from the drum riser and showed Vince the melody and chords. He even transposed the horn parts, wrote out a chart on a cloth napkin.
Very cool to be a fly on the wall

I always thought of Motley as kinda like the Monkees where the guys can play, but it's more like a Hollywood fabrication

EzyRider wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 7:34 am I always thought of Motley as kinda like the Monkees where the guys can play, but it's more like a Hollywood fabrication

Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart wrote the Monkees songs. Who wrote Motley's?

HueyRamone wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 9:45 am

EzyRider wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 7:34 am I always thought of Motley as kinda like the Monkees where the guys can play, but it's more like a Hollywood fabrication

Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart wrote the Monkees songs. Who wrote Motley's?

Matthew Trippe duh

I’m going to guess that Nikki would bring in a rough arrangement. Basic chords and melody/lyrics. Then the entire band and producer contributed.

Even Billy Joel’s band has said that they help with the arrangements so I’m assuming that is true with bands like Motley too.

Nikki doesn't write music IMO - he has a vision, and he recruited the right guys to execute and make his ideas come to life.

The concept of the band was that Nikki was the leader and everyone followed his ideas. "Sing it like this", "Don't sing it like that", "play it like that", etc. That's what they did, and it worked.

Saying that, Mars and Lee are listed as cowriters for nearly every MC song worth listening to. Where they aren't, I have no doubt they should have been - they write the music as far I can tell. I've never seen any statements or evidence that Nikki actually came up with the melodies Vince sings or a single riff. Maybe Kickstart My Heart since it's lifted from a Sweet song anyway?

Every band is different on how they divide credit. Brian Robertson from Thin Lizzy said he and Gorham came up with damn near all the music, but Phil Lynott almost always ended up with sole songwriting credit.

rockker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 10:02 am

HueyRamone wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 9:45 am

EzyRider wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 7:34 am I always thought of Motley as kinda like the Monkees where the guys can play, but it's more like a Hollywood fabrication

Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart wrote the Monkees songs. Who wrote Motley's?

Matthew Trippe duh

Actual Monkeys!!

FreddyFender wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 10:31 am Nikki doesn't write music IMO - he has a vision, and he recruited the right guys to execute and make his ideas come to life.

The concept of the band was that Nikki was the leader and everyone followed his ideas. "Sing it like this", "Don't sing it like that", "play it like that", etc. That's what they did, and it worked.

Saying that, Mars and Lee are listed as cowriters for nearly every MC song worth listening to. Where they aren't, I have no doubt they should have been - they write the music as far I can tell. I've never seen any statements or evidence that Nikki actually came up with the melodies Vince sings or a single riff. Maybe Kickstart My Heart since it's lifted from a Sweet song anyway?

Every band is different on how they divide credit. Brian Robertson from Thin Lizzy said he and Gorham came up with damn near all the music, but Phil Lynott almost always ended up with sole songwriting credit.

"""""""""""""""Every band is different on how they divide credit."""""""""""""""""""""

This x100M!

There have been examples for years, of guys getting rick rolled... Chris Holmes comes to mind, and Jake E Lee.

I have to believe that Chris def contributed to W.A.S.P.'s early music, but it seems in the end, Lawless commandeered the writing, publishing, etc...

Same with Jake not getting properly credited, or paid, for all those riffs... I mean, does anyone on the planet think Ozzy came up with those "Bark At The Moon" parts?

$tEvil

Venus Flytrap wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:52 pm I'm not a musician so I'm a little puzzled how he does this. All evidence says he can't play for shit. Their first producer said he sucked when he first heard him and he hasn't been playing live for like 20 years now. He's been their main songwriter though. So how can someone write music when they can't play well?

"""""""""""""""""""So how can someone write music when they can't play well?"""""""""""""""

In TUFF... there were multiple ways our songs came to life.

Chase was without a doubt, the MD of the band. Very capable bass player, and could also fake his way through some drum patterns.

All of the busier songs, were Todd's, like "Lonely Lucy", "Ain't Worth A Dime", "Ruck A Pit Bridge" and "Spit Like This"... all had much more going on musically.

Jorge was a riff guy, or rhythm guy, but was not a song writer. However, there were some gems... like "All New Generation" and "Good Guys Wear Black", and "Forever Yours". All of those were songs built around Jorge's musical riff, or rhythm bed.

I can still recall the day in our NoHo apartment, he was jamming in his room, and he played something that I liked, so I ran down the hall and said: "What was that?" And he didn't remember what he had played... then jammed me like 3-4 ideas he was fooling around with and when he got to a certain riff, I said "That! Right there...", that became "Good Guys Wear Black", which Todd and the band, then arranged, and I wrote the lyrics and melody... and the guy that Produced that demo (Warren Croyle) also contributed to some lyrics on GGWB.

Jorge also had the music for "All New Generation" which ended up being arranged by Todd, and was originally called "Boys Will Be Boys"... but we dropped the old lyric and melody, etc... and I changed it to "All New Generation", which I wrote the melody and lyrics for it, along with 95% of the Tuff catalog.

I contributed 2 songs... musically, "I Hate Kissing You Goodbye", and "So Many Seasons", both, by far the most simple songs on the record, D, A, C, G chords throughout both... and while Todd and Jorge can play MUCH better than I can... it was oddly, my 2 songs that gained most of the attention and accolades, to be the radio singles, video, etc...

Mr. Big had albums full of complex ideas, songs, rhythms, etc... but their most simple song, became their biggest hit!

$tEvil

Venus Flytrap wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:52 pm I'm not a musician so I'm a little puzzled how he does this. All evidence says he can't play for shit. Their first producer said he sucked when he first heard him and he hasn't been playing live for like 20 years now. He's been their main songwriter though. So how can someone write music when they can't play well?

I don't believe the "he can't play and hasn't played live for 20 years" bit. I am sure he did suck when they first started out as Nikki was never about the instrument but rather being a rock star.

The guy is the bassist in Motley Crue. It's the simplest instrument going besides the triangle and again, he plays in Motley Crue. Which the basslines are one step past learning how to play. Anyone who has picked up a bass for more than a year could play it. Just through osmosis he would be able to play, because he has been doing it since 1982.

Why on earth would he not play live?

They would also have to play to a click track which would make things much harder for everyone else.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Does being a good songwriter mean you have to be good at an instrument?

Dude is sole writer, or co-writer on
Live Wire
Shout at the Devil
Looks that Kill
GGG
Wild Side
Home Sweet Home
Dr. Feelgood
Kickstart my heart

Some of the best rock songs ever written, and will still be played long after we are all gone. Most artists pray for one massive hit...or any kind of hit

Doesn't matter if he walked past the room where the others were writing and just farted and said "that's my contribution"

He's got his name on them

Sixx was also super smart at promo when the band was starting out. Did anything to get the name out there.

Nah, instrumental prowess is meaningless. I'd even say it gets in the way.

To paraphrase the bible, It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a shredder to write a great song.

Been doing a deep dive on the Bee Gees lately, and Barry, who wrote most of the big stuff, plays retard guitar...liiiike he keeps it tuned in open A and does one finger chords 90% of the time, even just playing root-5 on minor chords so he doesn't have to do a flat 3.

BUT he has a fantastic melodic sensibility and just sings the parts he wants to the other musicians, coming up with some of the most beautiful harmonic structures I have ever deciphered, shit WAY beyond what most people who play guitar well could come up with, because you get stuck in patterns and preconceptions, wheras if you start with a vocal and backfill the chords, you can get into some really cool places. The Bee Gees stuff in particular has a lot of unexpected chord changes that are clearly following a vocal instead of a chord or scalar box.

ALL that matters in writing is ideas and whether you can come up with them and communicate them either to other musicians or (these days) self-realize them using tech.



...this is also why Ozzy is SO underrated and people don't even think he is involved. People are idiots.

He probably does write most of the lyrics and melodies, has an idea for the music and the guitarist or producer makes it a song.

MetalSludgeCEO wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 5:07 pm

Venus Flytrap wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2025 4:52 pm I'm not a musician so I'm a little puzzled how he does this. All evidence says he can't play for shit. Their first producer said he sucked when he first heard him and he hasn't been playing live for like 20 years now. He's been their main songwriter though. So how can someone write music when they can't play well?

Poison sold millions too, and there was no Yngwie or Neil Peart in their band either...

It's not always about how many chops you have...

$tEvil

Malmsteen would never be able to write like CC. CC knew more than anyone how to come up with perfect songs. Just listen to Fallen Angel

15+ years ago he was on a trip about his “writing” and was having artist consider his songs. I guess Backstreet Boys or NSync considered a song of his and they passed. Nikki was thrilled that they even considered it.

It has been my experience that the best songwriters are the worst players. They don't let "musicianship" get in the way of a good song. They don't know when they are being "dumb".

Sleek wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 1:22 pm Nah, instrumental prowess is meaningless. I'd even say it gets in the way.

To paraphrase the bible, It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a shredder to write a great song.

BUT he has a fantastic melodic sensibility and just sings the parts he wants to the other musicians, coming up with some of the most beautiful harmonic structures I have ever deciphered, shit WAY beyond what most people who play guitar well could come up with, because you get stuck in patterns and preconceptions, wheras if you start with a vocal and backfill the chords, you can get into some really cool places. The Bee Gees stuff in particular has a lot of unexpected chord changes that are clearly following a vocal instead of a chord or scalar box.

ALL that matters in writing is ideas and whether you can come up with them and communicate them either to other musicians or (these days) self-realize them using tech.

See Michael Jackson......

mrspeedgene wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 4:41 am It has been my experience that the best songwriters are the worst players. They don't let "musicianship" get in the way of a good song. They don't know when they are being "dumb".

But then you have....Don Fagan & Walter Becker.

gtrjay wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 4:29 am 15+ years ago he was on a trip about his “writing” and was having artist consider his songs. I guess Backstreet Boys or NSync considered a song of his and they passed. Nikki was thrilled that they even considered it.

I mean, that is kinda cool. You might have a ton of platinum records for your own band's songs, but people still dont consider you a "pro" songwriter, a la Max Martin or Dr Luke. For a big pop band to look at a heritage metal guy as a possible songwriter for hire must have made him feel like his shit is current/applicable to other genres/top tier, etc.

HueyRamone wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 8:57 am

gtrjay wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 4:29 am 15+ years ago he was on a trip about his “writing” and was having artist consider his songs. I guess Backstreet Boys or NSync considered a song of his and they passed. Nikki was thrilled that they even considered it.

I mean, that is kinda cool. You might have a ton of platinum records for your own band's songs, but people still dont consider you a "pro" songwriter, a la Max Martin or Dr Luke. For a big pop band to look at a heritage metal guy as a possible songwriter for hire must have made him feel like his shit is current/applicable to other genres/top tier, etc.

"Considered"

HueyRamone wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 8:57 am

gtrjay wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2025 4:29 am 15+ years ago he was on a trip about his “writing” and was having artist consider his songs. I guess Backstreet Boys or NSync considered a song of his and they passed. Nikki was thrilled that they even considered it.

I mean, that is kinda cool. You might have a ton of platinum records for your own band's songs, but people still dont consider you a "pro" songwriter, a la Max Martin or Dr Luke. For a big pop band to look at a heritage metal guy as a possible songwriter for hire must have made him feel like his shit is current/applicable to other genres/top tier, etc.

As an Elvis freak, I often thought about the guy (don't recall his name) that wrote Burning Love for Elvis. He was like 19 or 20. To be a kid and see fucking ELVIS in 73 Aloha from Hawaii with the entire planet tuned in singing your song has to be insane.

So would it be fair to say that Nikki knows all the notes (obviously) and has a basic understanding of something like the Circle of Fifths and how to write chord progressions (ie I - bVII - IV -I or even a basic I - IV - V ) ? In other words a very basic understanding of theory. I remember reading in a 1989 Guitar For The Practicing Musician that Mick said he was uncomfortable playing in E and A which makes very little sense because most of their songs are based around those keys (albeit a whole step down).

Ryan81 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 7:34 pm So would it be fair to say that Nikki knows all the notes (obviously) and has a basic understanding of something like the Circle of Fifths and how to write chord progressions (ie I - bVII - IV -I or even a basic I - IV - V ) ? In other words a very basic understanding of theory. I remember reading in a 1989 Guitar For The Practicing Musician that Mick said he was uncomfortable playing in E and A which makes very little sense because most of their songs are based around those keys (albeit a whole step down).

I mean, almost EVERYTHING is in A. At least the early songs. I wouldnt be surprised if he just had an innate sense of what sounded good. And repurposed Sweet, Slade and Priest chords into his own stuff. Once they got popular, prolly can get help from uncredited songwriters if needed

EzyRider wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 11:00 am

rockker wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 10:02 am

HueyRamone wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2025 9:45 am
Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart wrote the Monkees songs. Who wrote Motley's?

Matthew Trippe duh

Actual Monkeys!!

Actually chimpanzees.

Ryan81 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2025 7:34 pm So would it be fair to say that Nikki knows all the notes (obviously) and has a basic understanding of something like the Circle of Fifths and how to write chord progressions (ie I - bVII - IV -I or even a basic I - IV - V ) ? In other words a very basic understanding of theory.

I guarantee you sixx does not know any of that shit.

If you can string a couple of power chords together, & put a lyric & a melody over it, you can write a song.

There are virtuosos who can’t do it for shit.

Sixx was no virtuoso, but he had songwriting talent.

They are entirely two different things.