Metal Sludge Gossip Board

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 6:41 pm**

Probably made this thread before. I'm all out of ideas, boys.

I just put on Hot in the Shade (my problem, not yours, I get it) and it reminded me of something I brought up the other day (couple weeks ago?):

How did this album not sell after "Forever"?

HitS was certified Gold on 12/20/89. "Forever" came out 1/5/90. How is it possible to have a hit song and sell virtually NO albums? Did everyone buy the single? "Cassingles" weren't huge sellers for rock bands, that I remember.

Let's look at comparable power ballads from that time:

Damn Yankees - "High Enough" - 2x platinum album
Slaughter - "Fly to the Angels" - 2x platinum album
Skid Row - "I Remember You" - 5x platinum album
Warrant - "Heaven" - 2x platinum album
Enuff Z'Nuff - "Fly High Michelle" - 300K

So Kiss was somehow closer to EZN's sales than Slaughter's (who were OPENING for Kiss).

Am I misremembering how popular "Forever" was? That's the only explanation. But I remember that song being huge.

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 6:48 pm**

I dont have an answer for you, but IMO

Damn Yankees - "High Enough"
Slaughter - "Fly to the Angels"
Skid Row - "I Remember You"
Decent songs anyone could like

Warrant - "Heaven" -
Kiss - Forever
You would have to have a vagina to like these and have any self respect

Enuff Z'Nuff - "Fly High Michelle" - 300K
Never heard it

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 7:03 pm**

Nothing to add except that yes, I had the cassingle!

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 7:26 pm**

Hair I Go Again wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 7:03 pm Nothing to add except that yes, I had the cassingle!

You've added plenty. This is valuable data!

It would be incredible if Kiss's thinking at the time was "It's the CD era, we need to be competitive and put 15 songs on this thing" and American rock fans were like "Thanks, we'll just have the 2."

Looks like the B-side was "The Street Giveth." What a treat.

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 7:50 pm**

Chip Z'Hoy wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 7:26 pm
Hair I Go Again wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 7:03 pm Nothing to add except that yes, I had the cassingle!
You've added plenty. This is valuable data!

My experience on this...

I was an American expat (and a total Kiss nut swinger) living overseas when "Forever" went top-10. I was like "finally, these fuckers are getting an '80s hit" (like Alice Cooper did with "Poison"). I came back to the States on summer vacation and got my tickets to see the Hot In The Shade Tour. However, I noticed:

I didn't hear "Forever" anywhere. It had no staying power. It had its brief chart life, then disappeared. It wasn't like "Pour Some Sugar On Me" in the summer of '88 which still got played on rock radio, pop radio, and MTV long after its chart peak.

They fucked up by not releasing the Desmond Child co-write ("You Love Me To Hate You") as the follow-up single. Instead, they stuck with "Rise To It" and the world said, "eh".

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 7:58 pm**

Were fans excited with the Rise To It video because Paul and Gene were putting on the facepaint?

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 8:00 pm**

My opinion: they really hurt themselves with the audience when doing "Let's Put the X in Sex" the year before. Not only was it a pretty bad song, but it was "cringe-y." I was graduating high school around that time, and I remember having gotten back into Kiss with Lick It Up (also cringe-y), Animalize, and Asylum. Asylum might have been best of those. But I thought "Let's Put the X" was just so ridiculously stupid that it put me back off of them. They finally went a step too far.

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 8:03 pm**

pieceofme wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 7:58 pm Were fans excited with the Rise To It video because Paul and Gene were putting on the facepaint?

Not particularly. It was kinda cool as a novelty but we all thought they just looked weird. I was never into the music much past LIU, but HITS is almost universally considered among their worst albums.

Bruce did like and shared this remix I did a few months ago by request.

KISS - "Turn On The Night" (franKENstein Remix and Video Redux w/Piano)
https://youtu.be/_82h-SWdMnE

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 8:09 pm**

"X in Sex" sounded like it was recorded on a Casio keyboard, which didn't help.

You can love or hate those '80s albums, but Kiss always had a strong lead single off each of them. That changed with "X in Sex" and "Hide Your Heart." No bueno.

"Forever" was more of a Band-Aid for HITS than something that should've carried the album to Platinum.

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 8:19 pm**

Wiseacre wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 8:03 pmBruce did like and shared this remix I did a few months ago by request.

KISS - "Turn On The Night" (franKENstein Remix and Video Redux w/Piano)
https://youtu.be/_82h-SWdMnE

Nicely done! You can really hear Gene's backing vocals.

REALLY like the piano. I think it's a huge improvement.

Just hearing it sound fuller like this is really cool. Such a thin-sounding album.

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 9:26 pm**

Chip Z'Hoy wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 8:19 pm
Wiseacre wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 8:03 pmBruce did like and shared this remix I did a few months ago by request.

KISS - "Turn On The Night" (franKENstein Remix and Video Redux w/Piano)
https://youtu.be/_82h-SWdMnE
Nicely done! You can really hear Gene's backing vocals.

REALLY like the piano. I think it's a huge improvement.

Just hearing it sound fuller like this is really cool. Such a thin-sounding album.

Thanks!

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 11:08 pm**

What happened was KISS fans bought the album and there was nobody left to buy it, they couldn’t even get new fans with a hit single.

Posted: **Sun May 11, 2025 11:58 pm**

Kiss were at a low point in their career when they released HITS. They were getting respect for their legacy - see the sales of Smashes Thrashes and Hits - but nobody cared about new music anymore and modern Kiss was deeply uncool.

Asylum bombed, their supposed big comeback Crazy Nights made it to platinum but far from the Leppard's, Bon Jovis or Mötleys they were chasing and the HITS tour only got off the ground thanks to MTV exposure via Forever and attractive opening bands.

Notice how they pivoted with their setlist, from LIU to CN pre-Creatures songs were a footnote but on HITS the set centered around the 70s with only three HITS songs represented.

The Revenge album and tour cemented their position - they did everything right and fans loved the album - but it didn't sell more than gold and the tour was a financial disaster.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 5:31 am**

I'll attempt to add more to this conversation.

In trying to reverse-engineer why I bought the cassingle 35 years later, the only thing I can come up with is that I was too cheap to buy the full album. Even if I really liked a cassingle, it was very rare for me to circle back to get the full album, as in my mind, I'd already spent my money on whatever artist and didn't want to buy it twice. I don't remember loving "Forever," but I guess I liked it enough to give them a couple of bucks.

I ended up getting the cassette a few years later from a used record store, but I never upgraded to CD, even during the Columbia House/BMG years. I've streamed it a few times in recent years, and I think I would have enjoyed it more as a kid than I do now. I like "Rise To It," "Hide Your Heart" and "Silver Spoon" well enough, and someone made a good point about "You Love Me To Hate You," but the rest isn't terribly memorable. I'm a "Crazy Nights" apologist, so it's not that I hate hair-metal Kiss -- I just think they did it better on that album than on "HITS."

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 5:34 am**

HITS the the worst non-makeup album they did, so I guess that didn't help. Tour was great, though.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 5:45 am**

I think Vinnie said that Forever was primarily pushed by the label, but had very little sales outside of the KISS fandom. The album really had nothing going for it, so even a song like Forever wasn't going to save it. Then they tested the waters with putting the makeup back on and that did nothing to help them, either.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 6:10 am**

MTV played Forever a bunch, but I don't ever remember hearing it on the radio, same with Hide your Heart. Also, at 15 songs, almost an hour long, HITS was too bloated for anyone to really care.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 7:04 am**

Even at the peak of hair metal, you needed a strong follow-up to your hit power ballad. Otherwise, you were good for Gold and little more.

Kiss, Kix, Faster Pussycat, and L.A. Guns. all faced the same thing in 1990. And we know what happened the following year.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 7:10 am**

tooth wrote: ↑Mon May 12, 2025 6:10 am MTV played Forever a bunch, but I don't ever remember hearing it on the radio, same with Hide your Heart. Also, at 15 songs, almost an hour long, HITS was too bloated for anyone to really care.

Yeah, I remember hearing it a few times on the radio in Tampa, FL back then, but other than that it was an MTV thing. I think a reunion was the only thing that could save them at that point. When Revenge bombed it was crystal clear. Thankfully '70s nostalgia coincided with the reunion tour.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 7:12 am**

IMO, I really think HITS could have been a great (ok "good"

) KISS album, if cut down to 9 or 10 songs. The 3 singles were solid, and most of Paula's songs are strong.

Rise To It
Hide Your Heart
Prisoner Of Love
Love's A Slap In The Face
Forever
Silver Spoon
Cadillac Dreams
King Of Hearts
The Street Giveth And The Street Taketh Away
You Love Me To Hate You

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 7:14 am**

Hair I Go Again wrote: ↑Mon May 12, 2025 5:31 am I'll attempt to add more to this conversation.

Ha well I wasn't being sarcastic earlier, I was really seeking answers!

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 7:35 am**

pieceofme wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 7:58 pm Were fans excited with the Rise To It video because Paul and Gene were putting on the facepaint?

That was a weird one. Doing it as just a little intro to a meh song? Without the other two guys? With Paul's hair too long? And the wrong costumes from the wrong era? And then not referencing it again?

No wonder it went barely noticed.

If anything it probably taught them that if they are ever gonna do the makeup, they need to present it big, and do it right.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 7:38 am**

Keep in mind that the RIAA certifications were based on units shipped, not units sold. I know "Crazy Nights" wasn't a mega-hit, but it had three legit MTV hit singles, so I'm guessing the record company expected that "HITS" would fare similarly. They probably shipped 500K copies+, but because "Hide Your Heart" didn't really move the needle, those copies probably sat in stores for a while until "Forever" helped them to sell through. In other words, the supply was likely already there to meet the demand, and the demand just wasn't big enough to merit shipping more records.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 8:31 am**

That whole album cycle happened to correspond that "best summer" ever we all probably have. So I have a soft spot for this album. Tour was amazing. saw it 3 times (the last one being the infamous Whitesnake Toronto show) Might be the best Kiss show I've seen. no special effects..playing in the blazing sun. Crowd was crazy the entire time.

But now... it is a hard album to listen to. Even if you took the best 9 or 10 songs, it is still pretty weak.

As others have stated, Forever kinda came and went. i remember hearing a lot on the radio, but only for a short time. They haven't played it since, so I'm guessing they knew it wasn't really an enduring hit.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 8:43 am**

That album is just confounding.

They have tons of outside writers, but the songs are all terrible. I can see when people hate something like "I dont Wanna Miss a Thing", cause its safe and wussy, but it's a well crafted song.

They brought in Halligan jr, Poncia, Child, Adam Mitchell, Holly Knight, and Bolton, and got only garbage. I fucking hate Forever but I guess you cant deny it was a hit. The rest? Hide Your Heart and Rise are fine as song craftmanship goes, but the rest is godawful even as album filler. Fine if Gene and Paul are out of ideas and on autopilot, but why are they using writers who seem to be the same?

Also, I dont get the gameplan. We'll save money by not hiring a producer, but then pay out songwriters on every track. All the songs will be garbage, but at least we'll give you a lot of them. We want to get back on top, but we'll just use our demos as the finished album.

Wouldnt it have been cheaper to leave the worst songs off the record? You pay out the songwriters on each album sold, on songs that do nothing to sell the record.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 10:45 am**

Wow, is this correct? NONE of the songs from the 80's hit the top 40???? That shocks the hell out of me if that's really true. That should sum it all up right there. People were not buying Kiss albums. "Forever" must've just been a big radio request song.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forever_( ... ng)#Charts
"Forever" peaked at number 8 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart on April 21, 1990, making it the group's first US Top 40 single since "I Was Made for Lovin' You" reached number 11 in 1979. It was the band's ninth and, to date, last Top 40 American single. It also reached number 17 on Billboard's Hot Mainstream Rock Tracks on March 17, 1990.

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 11:36 am**

Wiseacre wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 8:03 pm
pieceofme wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 7:58 pm Were fans excited with the Rise To It video because Paul and Gene were putting on the facepaint?
Not particularly. It was kinda cool as a novelty but we all thought they just looked weird. I was never into the music much past LIU, but HITS is almost universally considered among their worst albums.

Bruce did like and shared this remix I did a few months ago by request.

KISS - "Turn On The Night" (franKENstein Remix and Video Redux w/Piano)
https://youtu.be/_82h-SWdMnE

Well done sir on the remix!

Posted: **Mon May 12, 2025 8:19 pm**

HueyRamone wrote: ↑Mon May 12, 2025 8:43 am That album is just confounding.

They have tons of outside writers, but the songs are all terrible. I can see when people hate something like "I dont Wanna Miss a Thing", cause its safe and wussy, but it's a well crafted song.

They brought in Halligan jr, Poncia, Child, Adam Mitchell, Holly Knight, and Bolton, and got only garbage. I fucking hate Forever but I guess you cant deny it was a hit. The rest? Hide Your Heart and Rise are fine as song craftmanship goes, but the rest is godawful even as album filler. Fine if Gene and Paul are out of ideas and on autopilot, but why are they using writers who seem to be the same?

Also, I dont get the gameplan. We'll save money by not hiring a producer, but then pay out songwriters on every track. All the songs will be garbage, but at least we'll give you a lot of them. We want to get back on top, but we'll just use our demos as the finished album.

Wouldnt it have been cheaper to leave the worst songs off the record? You pay out the songwriters on each album sold, on songs that do nothing to sell the record.

Don't forget it has one of the weakest album covers as well.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2025 3:06 am**

Van Ailin' wrote: ↑Sun May 11, 2025 8:00 pm My opinion: they really hurt themselves with the audience when doing "Let's Put the X in Sex" the year before. Not only was it a pretty bad song, but it was "cringe-y." I was graduating high school around that time, and I remember having gotten back into Kiss with Lick It Up (also cringe-y), Animalize, and Asylum. Asylum might have been best of those. But I thought "Let's Put the X" was just so ridiculously stupid that it put me back off of them. They finally went a step too far.

Same.

Posted: **Tue May 13, 2025 7:07 am**

It was written by Michael Bolton and Stanley at the height of Bolton's powers. His sound was THE template for the soft-rock/adult contemporary format, no surprise it scored a good chart position.

But was there any overlap between Kiss' target audience and Michael Bolton? Hell no. So the song breaking the top-ten didn't result in any actual units moved. Adult contemporary fans weren't going to go out and buy a Kiss album, and 13 year old boys weren't going to go out and buy a record because of a Michal Bolton power ballad.

Metal Sludge Gossip Board

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