Natural talent vs. hours of practice

[Hatchets Molly]

A few threads got me thinking. A lot of "guitar legends" are assholes IRL or screw-ups (a la Jake E Lee), yet they kill it on guitar skills but couldn't hold down a real job. Then you have guys like Wolfgang who have skills (regardless of your opinion). I don't see him as the YouTube generation that locks themselves in their rooms all day learning to play like EVH over years. Then there are those freaks who are 8 years old and play as well as EVH already. I've played since I was 8 but never worked hard at it. I've done the cover band thing for a few years, but I would still say I'm average at best.

I probably answered my own question that talent can be genetic or learned. What's the popular opinion?

[tooth]

You either have it or you don't, "it" meaning swing, rhythm, an inner metronome, whatever you want to call it. That can't be learned. There are for sure people on this board, who, if given a "insert musical instrument they have never played" & left them for a few hours, they would figure it out on some level.

[Black Stuff]

Both. Natural ability comes first, then it's shaped and honed through practice. No easy way out

[Gibsonite]

Me when I tell someone I play guitar...

[Hatchets Molly]

Me when I tell someone I play guitar...

Hahaha. Me too. I was the vocalist when I played out, so I mainly played rhythm and a few licks. I can't solo for shit. Since then, I've probably played only once in 10 years. I lost the desire.

[Rocker4Real]

It takes both. You gotta put the time in, but also have the musical instincts to improvise to come up with interesting shit.

[Hatchets Molly]

It takes both. You gotta put the time in, but also have the musical instincts to improvise to come up with interesting shit.

Yeah, coming up with your own interesting stuff is another part of this. I can imagine, in time, someone gaining skills in replicating existing stuff. Coming up with your own is a whole different ballgame. I can write songs if I try, lyrics, chord progressions, riffs, but that's my limit. I can't add the interesting stuff (fills, solos, dynamics). That's probably a big reason I lost interest with age after a spin in the bars. I plateaued, and it became less fun.

[FreddyFender]

I think it's more either/or.

You have guys like Paul Gilbert that are very schooled and got where they got from hours of disciplined study (and probably autism).

Then you have guys like Ed that are are just freaks, maybe come from a musical family and just pick it up (and probably autism).

[diablomozart]

i'll quote stephen king "I think that writers are made, not born or created out of dreams or childhood trauma- that becoming a writer is a direst result of conscious will. Of course there has to be some talent involved, but talent is a dreadfully cheap commodity, cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work and study; a constant process of honing. Talent is a dull knife that will cut nothing unless it is wielded with great force- a force so great that the knife is not really cutting at all but bludgeoning and breaking.”

the same holds true for writing music...anybody, with enough time, discipline and dedication can become technically proficient through repetition and muscle memory...but there is something that cannot be achieved that way...i hear music in my head...yes it's irritating when i'm trying to sleep but it is what it is...technique is great but ultimately it's only a tool to help you realize your musical ideas...one of my friends, who was a phenomenal guitarist, said "the hardest thing to do is achieve your own voice on the instrument, no matter how good or bad"...d.m.

[VinnieVincentsVag]

Me when I tell someone I play guitar...

Hahaha. Me too. I was the vocalist when I played out, so I mainly played rhythm and a few licks. I can't solo for shit. Since then, I've probably played only once in 10 years. I lost the desire.

After 35+ yrs of touring/gigging and recording 5 albums, I have also lost the desire.
It’s been my whole life and I’m having a hard time dealing with it.
I still write and record songs or I should say half songs and never finish them.
I have developed trigger finger pretty bad in my left middle finger and ring finger so that hampers my playing big time but most of all I’ve just lost the desithe desire

[Hatchets Molly]

After 35+ yrs of touring/gigging and recording 5 albums, I have also lost the desire.

I sold a ton of gear. I have a few guitars hanging on my office wall that I don't touch. I have a couple combos in a spare room. In my office, I have a PositiveGrid Spark practice amp that I bought a few years ago thinking that fiddling with tones would be fun. I've turned it on maybe 5x. When I bought a new computer a few years ago, I didn't bother to reinstall any recording/mixing tools. I'm not sure I'll ever play again, even in a hobby capacity.

[HottKarl777]

Me when I tell someone I play guitar...

Hahaha. Me too. I was the vocalist when I played out, so I mainly played rhythm and a few licks. I can't solo for shit. Since then, I've probably played only once in 10 years. I lost the desire.

After 35+ yrs of touring/gigging and recording 5 albums, I have also lost the desire.
It’s been my whole life and I’m having a hard time dealing with it.
I still write and record songs or I should say half songs and never finish them.
I have developed trigger finger pretty bad in my left middle finger and ring finger so that hampers my playing big time but most of all I’ve just lost the desithe desire

Me too brother. I have a 5150 halfstack taking up most of the space in my bedroom closet (of my tiny 2 bedroom apartment). What the hell do I do with this thing? What a white elephant lol. I'm 55 and all my jam buddies are dead or we hate each other.

[VinnieVincentsVag]

Hahaha. Me too. I was the vocalist when I played out, so I mainly played rhythm and a few licks. I can't solo for shit. Since then, I've probably played only once in 10 years. I lost the desire.

After 35+ yrs of touring/gigging and recording 5 albums, I have also lost the desire.
It’s been my whole life and I’m having a hard time dealing with it.
I still write and record songs or I should say half songs and never finish them.
I have developed trigger finger pretty bad in my left middle finger and ring finger so that hampers my playing big time but most of all I’ve just lost the desithe desire

Me too brother. I have a 5150 halfstack taking up most of the space in my bedroom closet (of my tiny 2 bedroom apartment). What the hell do I do with this thing? What a white elephant lol. I'm 55 and all my jam buddies are dead or we hate each other.

I have PA system, light show guitars, processors and combo amps.
I put them all
on fb marketplace and all I got was a bunch of low all offers.
I’d just as soon leave them in storage than take half my asking price.
Guess I’m a grumpy old man.

[FreddyFender]

Sell all that shit.
Buy a quad cortex/helix/headrush.
Join a band that plays casinos/nicer bars/private events.
Enjoy playing for the sake of still playing.
Have fun, meet people, enjoy your life.

[JamesHetfieldsAcneScars]

How was jake e lee a screw up? Just curious.

[Sleek]

I do not think it is either/or, and I do not think there are only two factors.

...but there are a million little factors. Hours of practice can get you motor skills and help you memorize notes, chords and scales, but does not have any effect on anything else, which is why shredders are no better at song writing than anyone else, for instance.

One big one that is being overlooked is TASTE, as music is all just choices to make. "Do I play this note or that one? " "Should I play something fast or slow here?" That sense of what and where to play CAN be developed and absolutely can evolve over a person's life.

I am one of those guys who started out with Eddie and Randy licks, but as I get older have spent more time learning how to make things groove and FEEL good, and how to make things memorable...almost never play anything fast and shreddy. I definitely prefer players like Keith Richards or Jimmy Page to shreddy bois now.

In the last few years, my old ass has bumbled into a couple of really good paying tribute bands and I have spent more time playing and learning stuff than at any other point in my life. I di 4 gigs last week, and have two this weekend. My whole summer is like that. I'll be hitting 59 in August, and I'm probably going to do 75-100 gigs this year, all while also holding down a day job.

One of the bands I am doing now is a Bee Gees tribute, and holy fuck, THAT is a whole new vocabulary and a new library of awesome chordal and melodic structures. The shit is just so fucking sophisticated, but it is all also written melody-first (Barry Gibb, like Ozzy writes by singing a melody line, then they build the chord changes around that) so it doesn't fall into a lot of basic-assed progressions.

I am now firmly in the land of chords with numbers in them...I mean, you want a mental workout, learn How Deep is Your Love. It might just be the best and most subtle progression EVER. There's like a million chords in that one song.

It is funny because, like, Rhoads would use a diminished or Minor 7 chord and everybody would go: "WHOAH, THIS IS NEW MUST BE NEOCLASSICAL" when this stuff was always right there on the dance floor being chock-full of that shit.

...but yeah. Neither playing hours per day when I was a teen OR natural talent prepared me at all for this, just as neither prepared me for songwriting and coming up with parts and grooves for recording on the records I have done.

[Hatchets Molly]

How was jake e lee a screw up? Just curious.

Maybe unsubstantiated, but meth. He’s reportedly has gone through good and bad phases, recluse, career that could have been magnificent, but kind of fizzled after Ozzy and Badlands. Idk why he was in mediocre standing for RDC. I may be jumping to too many conclusions. And yes, there are screw ups that had amazing careers.

It was just an example of a high profile shredder that didn’t keep it up. Maybe he was more of a hermit like Vitto.

[Psychobolia.com]

I do not think it is either/or, and I do not think there are only two factors.

...but there are a million little factors. Hours of practice can get you motor skills and help you memorize notes, chords and scales, but does not have any effect on anything else, which is why shredders are no better at song writing than anyone else, for instance.

One big one that is being overlooked is TASTE, as music is all just choices to make. "Do I play this note or that one? " "Should I play something fast or slow here?" That sense of what and where to play CAN be developed and absolutely can evolve over a person's life.

I am one of those guys who started out with Eddie and Randy licks, but as I get older have spent more time learning how to make things groove and FEEL good, and how to make things memorable...almost never play anything fast and shreddy. I definitely prefer players like Keith Richards or Jimmy Page to shreddy bois now.

In the last few years, my old ass has bumbled into a couple of really good paying tribute bands and I have spent more time playing and learning stuff than at any other point in my life. I di 4 gigs last week, and have two this weekend. My whole summer is like that. I'll be hitting 59 in August, and I'm probably going to do 75-100 gigs this year, all while also holding down a day job.

One of the bands I am doing now is a Bee Gees tribute, and holy fuck, THAT is a whole new vocabulary and a new library of awesome chordal and melodic structures. The shit is just so fucking sophisticated, but it is all also written melody-first (Barry Gibb, like Ozzy writes by singing a melody line, then they build the chord changes around that) so it doesn't fall into a lot of basic-assed progressions.

I am now firmly in the land of chords with numbers in them...I mean, you want a mental workout, learn How Deep is Your Love. It might just be the best and most subtle progression EVER. There's like a million chords in that one song.

It is funny because, like, Rhoads would use a diminished or Minor 7 chord and everybody would go: "WHOAH, THIS IS NEW MUST BE NEOCLASSICAL" when this stuff was always right there on the dance floor being chock-full of that shit.

...but yeah. Neither playing hours per day when I was a teen OR natural talent prepared me at all for this, just as neither prepared me for songwriting and coming up with parts and grooves for recording on the records I have done.

How much do you get per night of tributing? Which tribute pays best/worst?
I make a solid nothing from my W.A.S.P. tribute

[JamesHetfieldsAcneScars]

I make a solid nothing from my W.A.S.P. tribute

Nothing? That's a shame. Would you like to join my Diamond Rexx tribute band?

[Psychobolia.com]

I make a solid nothing from my W.A.S.P. tribute

Nothing? That's a shame. Would you like to join my Diamond Rexx tribute band?

Haha, ok, by nothing I meant we get a beer and a sandwich or pizza... I've never heard Diamond Rexx so that's a hard pass, I don't want to pay to play. King Diamond on the other hand, I would be happy to tribute, goth groupies might be fun!

[WentEast]

Chet Atkins said it well. Playing guitar is like running. Almost anyone can run, but not everyone can run a marathon.

[Sleek]

How much do you get per night of tributing? Which tribute pays best/worst?
I make a solid nothing from my W.A.S.P. tribute

Low is $400, high was $1008 for a single show. Average is probs $500-$600. Expenses are usually covered including gas, food and lodging.

The ones that pay are Fleetwood Mac and Bee Gees. Music for rich white people.

People be paying $35 a ticket, sometimes $50 for vip seating, which is mind boggling to me. Did one 4th of July in Big Bear last year wayyyy up on a mountain where people paid $100 for the event ticket (they got a free hot dog tho) Venues go between 500 seat theaters to county fairs with like 5,000. It is fucking insane.

I also make $50-80 when I do Rammstein, which is why Huey is finding me to be busy a lot when he is trying to book.

I also do a sixties rock cover band with Mick from L.A. Guns and various random latter-day Quireboys sometimes. That is usually $100 per guy.

[Psychobolia.com]

How much do you get per night of tributing? Which tribute pays best/worst?
I make a solid nothing from my W.A.S.P. tribute

Low is $400, high was $1008 for a single show. Average is probs $500-$600. Expenses are usually covered including gas, food and lodging.

Waiddasecond, that's for you or the whole band?! Them's staggering numbers, esp. when they cover gas/foods/hotel! (by frog standards)

[Sleek]

That's my cut. Those bands don't play one note for under a $3k guarantee.

I know. It's fucking weird, but fuck, I am stacking up money. If I keep this up a few years, my retirement is gonna look way better (fingers crossed).

...plus it makes almost everything I buy tax deductible as business expenses. I am writing off shirts, boots, jewelry, guitars...just gotta use them on stage.

I feel very fucking grateful and lucky.

[eddie lee roth]

Good for you.

[Sleek]

I mean, the money is nice, but the real value is in getting something good to HUMBLEBRAG on Sludge.

[eddie lee roth]

What would be your tip for a old fart like me who is a late bloomer to the guitar to keep me picking it up?

Is it learn some chords and play some songs?

I don’t know what the hell I’m doing really.

I can play scales around a backing track but that can only keep me going for so long and then I go fuck it for awhile like a good little idiot.

Got time but I don’t know feel lost.

[Sleek]

Be useful. Learn some goddam songs. Pivot to being able to whip out something around a campfire (not your johnson) that you can sing or whatever. Good shit for that is like, old country in the Willie/Waylon/Merle vein, but also seventies pop. NOBODY want to hear anyone half-ass their way through Eruption or some Ozzy.

There is a big difference between playing guitar and playing music

[Tommy2Tone84]

I do not think it is either/or, and I do not think there are only two factors.

...but there are a million little factors. Hours of practice can get you motor skills and help you memorize notes, chords and scales, but does not have any effect on anything else, which is why shredders are no better at song writing than anyone else, for instance.

One big one that is being overlooked is TASTE, as music is all just choices to make. "Do I play this note or that one? " "Should I play something fast or slow here?" That sense of what and where to play CAN be developed and absolutely can evolve over a person's life.

I am one of those guys who started out with Eddie and Randy licks, but as I get older have spent more time learning how to make things groove and FEEL good, and how to make things memorable...almost never play anything fast and shreddy. I definitely prefer players like Keith Richards or Jimmy Page to shreddy bois now.

In the last few years, my old ass has bumbled into a couple of really good paying tribute bands and I have spent more time playing and learning stuff than at any other point in my life. I di 4 gigs last week, and have two this weekend. My whole summer is like that. I'll be hitting 59 in August, and I'm probably going to do 75-100 gigs this year, all while also holding down a day job.

One of the bands I am doing now is a Bee Gees tribute, and holy fuck, THAT is a whole new vocabulary and a new library of awesome chordal and melodic structures. The shit is just so fucking sophisticated, but it is all also written melody-first (Barry Gibb, like Ozzy writes by singing a melody line, then they build the chord changes around that) so it doesn't fall into a lot of basic-assed progressions.

I am now firmly in the land of chords with numbers in them...I mean, you want a mental workout, learn How Deep is Your Love. It might just be the best and most subtle progression EVER. There's like a million chords in that one song.

It is funny because, like, Rhoads would use a diminished or Minor 7 chord and everybody would go: "WHOAH, THIS IS NEW MUST BE NEOCLASSICAL" when this stuff was always right there on the dance floor being chock-full of that shit.

...but yeah. Neither playing hours per day when I was a teen OR natural talent prepared me at all for this, just as neither prepared me for songwriting and coming up with parts and grooves for recording on the records I have done.

Stellar post. Well said

[Hatchets Molly]

All good thoughts on the question. My problem over the last 13-14 years has been a lack of desire to touch a guitar (mentioned above). I have average natural talent on the guitar. Vocals were more natural. No current desire to play fun songs around the fire pit out back or work on new (to me) techniques. For that decade+ I've told myself the guitar will always be there. I don't care anymore.