Killeverything's (New)NeverEndingBaseballThread

[killeverything]

I heard an interesting discussion on ESPN this morning.

Right now, the Red Sox are the team of the decade. But if the Yankees with the World Series, they would be. Both would have two championships, but the Yankees made it four World Series and were in the playoffs 9 out of 10 years.

They also brought the Cardinals into the discussion but even if they win this year, I would have to give it to Boston.

That is interesting discussion.

I wonder really though, do they even account for team's payrolls? The MFY spent half a billion of free-agents, their accomplishments this season really aren't that impressive to me. More of a "of course their good."

Now for the "Team Of The Decade". Let's not forget that the 2004 Red Sox were the most expensive team to ever win a WS.......until 2007 when the Red Sox were.

For the whole decade, do you consider how the team was built? Like was this just money to throw around ( the usual suspects ) or was it a team developed from draft picks completely ( Tampa ). Was it a team who had 86 wins on the season then went on to win the whole thing ( Cardinials )?

Certainly if St. Louis is being considered after a potential win this year, then what about Philly if they potentially won this year? They would be back to back. This is good stuff. Especially in this day and age where there is no salary-cap, and there is a Wild Card. What does everyone think so far?

[killeverything]

If you expand the discussion who are the pitcher and players of the decade? Do you include steroids? Is it Pujols/A-Rod. Do you give it to Pedro for a few great years like Koufax? Or even Bonds for those crazy years?

I think you have to include steroids in the discussion right now. Since we've seen shit that's never been done with their influence.

Pitcher of the decade? I don't know. Pedro's complete dominance was 1997-2001. So I think that voids him. Maybe Randy Johnson? Roy Halladay? I'm drawing a blank.

Player of the decade isn't even up for discussion IMO. It would have to be the best player in baseball. Albert Pujols.

[Machado]

C.C. is the first 15 game winner in the A.L. Not bad. Not bad at all.

At least there weren't three third strike calls on balls a fucking foot outside the zone this time.



Wait.

Has it come to the strike zone? I saw the game last nite. Yes the home plate umpire was very generous. The calls he made were bad, but the guy was consistent. Isn't that what playes ask for? Call a strike in the 1st and call the same strike in the 9th.

[killeverything]

C.C. is the first 15 game winner in the A.L. Not bad. Not bad at all.

At least there weren't three third strike calls on balls a fucking foot outside the zone this time.



Wait.

Has it come to the strike zone? I saw the game last nite. Yes the home plate umpire was very generous. The calls he made were bad, but the guy was consistent. Isn't that what playes ask for? Call a strike in the 1st and call the same strike in the 9th.

No. You saw the game. It was the same as the Joba start. Outside. Strike. Outside. Strike.

I guess it doesn't really matter though, since Beckett's arogant ass kept trying to challenge them on fastballs.

[killeverything]

Yeah, I guess Pedro was more 1990's. If you go on ten year stats though, I wonder how it would turn out with A-Rod vs. Pujols.

Pitcher does seem to be hardest. I can't give it to Johnson, he was at his end by the time he got to the Yankees.


Rootzoo has the top five as follows;

Santana
Halladay
Oswalt
Smoltz
Webb

Holy shit. I forgot about Oswalt.

The thing about Johnson to me is the strikeout numbers, perfect game, him getting robbed of the Cy in 2004. I was having a discussion about this a little bit ago. Looking at what he's done as player. I think it could be argued he is the greatest pitcher of all time.

For players it's obviously a Pujols/Arod discussion. Like I said above though. The PEDs turn me off to Arod. So far Pujols hasn't been named. Now I realize were all in the dark about how much of a difference they actually do, especially with guys of that much talent already. It just taints me so far.

[Machado]

kill-i think beckett was either stubborn or did not have faith in
his 2 seam fastball. it seemed when he threw the 2 seamer, he was getting
swings and misses or called strikes on the corner.

ya know, the amount of times we face each other, sometimes as a pitcher you have
to go against the normal pattern used to get hitter's out. i understand that idea.
the same thing, the same attack can not be used every single start against a team
you might face 3 times a year or more.

i think the Yankees caught a break when it was obvious his curve ball was hanging. there was not sharp bite to it. the ball A-ROD hit and Cano hit were on a tee-waiting to get
smacked.

in this series, the goal was not to get swept. now that we won the series, further distance
from the red sox.

i'm enjoying the large lead and enjoying reading how pap does not really
have positive things to say about acquiring wagner-IDIOT!!!
when will someone tell the guy to keep his mouth shut.
way to be a team player pap.

[SkyDog112046]

If you want to say Randy Johnson had the greatest career of a left handed pitcher of all time, I could see that maybe he is better than Carlton or Grove. But I don't see how he was better in his prime than Koufax.

And I will take Pedro in his prime over Johnson. He was just sick at times. Just unfathomable some of those stats compared to the rest of the league. I think Pedro is the only one that can be placed next to Koufax.

I agree about Koufax. At his prime in the early to mid 60's he was the best lefty ever. His '63 season was amazing, and his '65 Series game 7 performance on 2 days rest is legendary.

And any discussion of the greatest ever has to include Gibson.

If you had to win 1 game and could have any pitcher in his prime, who do you choose? I'd have a hard time going with anyone other than Koufax.

[Tenacious_Dio]

Right now, the Red Sox are the team of the decade. But if the Yankees with the World Series, they would be. Both would have two championships, but the Yankees made it four World Series and were in the playoffs 9 out of 10 years.

Technically speaking, this decade began in 2001.

[Tenacious_Dio]

Right now, the Red Sox are the team of the decade. But if the Yankees with the World Series, they would be. Both would have two championships, but the Yankees made it four World Series and were in the playoffs 9 out of 10 years.

Technically speaking, this decade began in 2001.

Is that true? So the 1950's were 1951-1960?

Well, what was the first year? Year one. So the first decade was years 1-10. The second decade was years 11-20. And so on. When you count to ten, do you start with zero?

[SkyDog112046]

The Gregorian calendar has no year zero, so when talking about millenniums and centuries they always end in the year with zero - so the first century was from year 1-100, the second century was from 101-200, and the 20th century was from year 1901-2000. So technically our recent millennium ended on December 31, 2000 and the new one began on January 1, 2001.

However when people refer to decades they generally start in the first year of the cardinal year and refer to a decade as "The 60's", "the 70's", etc... so a decade would run 1960-1969, 1970-1979, etc.. So a case can be made either way as to whether this decade started in 2000 or 2001. I guess it's just semantics.

[SkyDog112046]

Because all the parties were celebrating year 2000. It's just that everyone was technically wrong. And I don't think "Tonight we're gonna party like it's twenty zero zero" has the same ring to it.

It's hard to believe that it's been almost 10 years since we hit Y2K.

As for team of the decade, no matter when you start the decade if Boston and New York were to end up tied with 2 each you would still have to consider Boston the team of the decade because of the way they won in 2004 and the huge monkey they got off their back. That has to be enough to be a tiebreaker.

[thejuggernaut]

As for team of the decade, no matter when you start the decade if Boston and New York were to end up tied with 2 each you would still have to consider Boston the team of the decade because of the way they won in 2004 and the huge monkey they got off their back. That has to be enough to be a tiebreaker.

Jesus Christ Lickety, enough of the homer nonsense.

[killeverything]

If you want to say Randy Johnson had the greatest career of a left handed pitcher of all time, I could see that maybe he is better than Carlton or Grove. But I don't see how he was better in his prime than Koufax.

And I will take Pedro in his prime over Johnson. He was just sick at times. Just unfathomable some of those stats compared to the rest of the league. I think Pedro is the only one that can be placed next to Koufax.

That's where this is good discussion.

Is it prime or longevity?

For prime. No one touches Pedro. From the list of all-time greats, no one is even close to his winning pct. His K/9, any of it. Not Walter Johnson, Randy Johnson, Koufax, Gibson, Lefty Grove, Gooden, no one. The only problem is he wasn't able to maintain the dominance or IP every season that someone like ( in his time ) Maddux did.

So is it a Starting Pitcher for an all-time greatest team built for a couple of seasons? Or an all-time greatest team built for a 20 year haul?

For longevity I have a hard time picking anybody above RJ. For complete dominance in everyway shape or form? Pedro.

"If a shortstop makes an error when I'm pitching it's not his fault. It's my fault, I let the batter hit the ball." - Pedro Martinez. That's domination right there.

[Sheep_Mafia]

Classic quote from Pedro.

Closer/Reliever or not, I'm throwing Mariano Rivera in:

Here are the greatest ERA+ in baseball history (more than 1,000 innings pitched):

1. Mariano Rivera, 198
2. Pedro Martinez, 154
3. Lefty Grove, 148
4. Walter Johnson, 147
5. Five pitchers tied at 146

Look at that -- Rivera's ERA+ is more than FORTY POINTS higher than anyone else in baseball history. How about WHIP -- walks-plus-hits per inning pitched?

1. Addie Joss, 0.968
2. Ed Walsh, 1.000
3. Mariano Rivera, 1.02
4. John Ward, 1.044*

*You will note the other three on the list are all pitchers from the Deadball Era.

Dude is incredible...STILL

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/w ... index.html

[JakeYonkel]

I wonder how Pedro's ERA+ would look if you took out his Mets years. Probably not enough for a huge swing but he's been pretty underwhelming since 2005 or so, and really maybe even before that. Can't argue with his dominant era, though.

Mariano is so unique in that he's maintained a ridiculously consistent level of excellence for nearly 15 years - that's unheard of.

[killeverything]

Good addition, but I wonder how this factors in.

Mariano it the greatest relief pitcher of all time. Period.

I was trying to talk about not just the greatest pitcher of all time persay, but the greatest starter of all time. Looking at just straight numbers. It's hard to make a case against Rivera.

As a stater though? Domination is a different thing from stariting the top of the first, to "Enter Sandman" in the ninth to kill any potential comebacks.

If this discussion goes to relievers, it's hard to see Mariano not coming out on top.....of all time. With little to no debate.

[killeverything]

And what is wrong with Roy Halladay? He is killing my fantasy team.

What a move by the Phillies staying away from that idiot Ricciardi. Cliff Lee is 5-0 since his arrival and they didn't give up anything for him. Whoever that GM is should get the GM of the year award. Brad Lidge is perfect in his last three appearances. If he returns to form, they're as good as anyone.

I hope the Yankees win it all, but if they don't, I hope The Phillies win again so they can make fun of The Mets during their victory parade.

What's wrong with Halladay?

What's wrong with almost every ace right now?

( Last two starts )
Halladay--11 IP, 20 H, 13 R, 11 ER

Lincecum--13 IP, 9 H , 8 R, 8 BB, 9 K.

Verlander--13.2 IP, 16 H , 7 R.

Beckett--13.1IP, 18H, 15ER, 8HR, 9K.

Talk about a rough patch. It seems a lot of offenses are heating up too. This is homerun month. These numbers are showing how a team is both hitting and allowing more HRs.

Mighty Red Sox 1.86 (hit), 1.71 (pitch)
Tampa 1.65 (hit), 1.45 (pitch)
LAAAAAA, 1.50 (hit), 1.60 (pitch)

The MFY are hitting, but not allowing so many. 1.80 ( hit ), 1.10 ( pitch ). Baltimore and Kasas are allowing a ton 1.50 ( hit ), 1.57 ( pitch ) each. The rest around the League are average for the month....most below. Chicks dig the long ball right?

Oh, and this should warm your Met-hatin' heart.

Rumors going on right now say that Santana needs surgery. The Mets FO is tight lipped about it, but most player's think it's really bad. They're saying Tommy John.

Wow. Talk about a hit. Can't afford the team they have now, lose their ace, depleted Farm.

Kinda makes ya glad Hughes/Fatass/Jackson wasn't traded for him huh? Just like Lester/Buchholz/Bard.

[Sabu]

I don't recall any team having a year like the Mets have had this year...

Reyes, Beltran, Wright, Delgado, FMart, Cora, Johan, Maine, Wagner, Niese, Putz, Ollie... unreal.

Wagner agrees to go to Boston. Mets will get 2 players to be named. Olney says they're Double A players. Sox agree to not pick up Wagner's option, but are permitted to offer him arbitration.

[Machado]

Johann is just getting scoped so its not that serious. Funny thing is the entire Met's front office is hiding under their desks and won't come out and talk about it.

NEW YORK -- Johan Santana needs surgery for bone chips in his left elbow and the star pitcher is out for the season, the latest blow to a New York Mets team battered by injuries.

The team said their 30-year-old ace is expected to be ready for spring training next year. The two-time Cy Young winner was examined Tuesday by Mets medical director Dr. David Altchek in New York.

[Sabu]

Word is Ollie stayed back in NY to get his knee looked at... Could leave Pelfrey as the only guy left that was projected to be in their starting five this season.

The Mets currently only have two players, Murphy and Castillo, not on the DL from their projected starting eight. Amazing!

Thank you Sports Illustrated for picking the Mets to win the World Series this year. Kindly eat a bowl of dick!

[WOLF]

Just though I'd pop in to say:

"and the winner of this year's C.C. Sabathia Award is.........

Cliff Lee"

Dude has been pitching out of his mind since the Phillies got him.

[Facedown]

Gotta agree with Mariano being the best ever. How could you not? The guy has been amazingly consistant and dominant for so many years with basically 1 pitch that hardly anyone can touch. Absolutely, the best.

[killeverything]

Gotta agree with Mariano being the best ever. How could you not? The guy has been amazingly consistant and dominant for so many years with basically 1 pitch that hardly anyone can touch. Absolutely, the best.

Definitley, as long as the role is defined "Best Reliever". That one pitch won't get you through nine IP. Much like the same arguement was said about Pappelbon and making him a starter. He has two pitches. Neither of which is as good as Rivera's cutter. I couldn't see Pap getting through a line-up twice unscathed consistently.

Anyways on Wagner. The Mighty Red Sox can't pick up his options, but they can make an offer of arbitration.....which will net two draft picks if he declines. I believe he's still listed as a type A free agent. Cool. The PTBNL so far is Chris Carpenter and a GFL guy.

We'll see how this all works out I guess. I'm not too excited about it. I was estatic about Gagne' ( shut up ). Hopefully our crybaby closer doesn't have a temper tantrum.

[Machado]

The Joba situation is wearing on me. Who did not expect him to pitch poorly last night.
He had 8 days off between starts.

I understand he has a innings limit this year.
I understand they are looking out for his future.
Which is the right thing to do, even at the expense of his performance
the last 6 weeks on '09

He is scheduled to pitch again on regular rest this coming Sunday. After that, who knows. He could be off another 6-8 days.

The situation is difficult because the Yankees are leading the division and playing games in Oct/Nov.
If this team was out of contention, Joba just might be shutdown and told to rest(like many other pitchers have done in the past).

I don't envision Hughes being moved to a starter this year.
I can see Joba being sent to the bullpen at some point in the playoffs.

Imagine both Hughes and Joba in the pen

[Gritt]

Gotta agree with Mariano being the best ever. How could you not? The guy has been amazingly consistant and dominant for so many years with basically 1 pitch that hardly anyone can touch. Absolutely, the best.

Definitley, as long as the role is defined "Best Reliever". That one pitch won't get you through nine IP. Much like the same arguement was said about Pappelbon and making him a starter. He has two pitches. Neither of which is as good as Rivera's cutter. I couldn't see Pap getting through a line-up twice unscathed consistently.

Anyways on Wagner. The Mighty Red Sox can't pick up his options, but they can make an offer of arbitration.....which will net two draft picks if he declines. I believe he's still listed as a type A free agent. Cool. The PTBNL so far is Chris Carpenter and a GFL guy.

We'll see how this all works out I guess. I'm not too excited about it. I was estatic about Gagne' ( shut up ). Hopefully our crybaby closer doesn't have a temper tantrum.

The only reliever I would put in the same sentence with Rivera is Eckersly. His run in the late 80's/early 90's stands up to anybody.

[TawnyVonJagger]

T shirt of the night, from a Mets fan:
My
Entire
Team
SUCKS!

I giggled my ass off every time I saw it.

Sign of the night:
Where are all the Mets fans? ON THE DL!

Yup, they definitely jumped off the wagon.

[killeverything]

Gotta agree with Mariano being the best ever. How could you not? The guy has been amazingly consistant and dominant for so many years with basically 1 pitch that hardly anyone can touch. Absolutely, the best.

Definitley, as long as the role is defined "Best Reliever". That one pitch won't get you through nine IP. Much like the same arguement was said about Pappelbon and making him a starter. He has two pitches. Neither of which is as good as Rivera's cutter. I couldn't see Pap getting through a line-up twice unscathed consistently.

Anyways on Wagner. The Mighty Red Sox can't pick up his options, but they can make an offer of arbitration.....which will net two draft picks if he declines. I believe he's still listed as a type A free agent. Cool. The PTBNL so far is Chris Carpenter and a GFL guy.

We'll see how this all works out I guess. I'm not too excited about it. I was estatic about Gagne' ( shut up ). Hopefully our crybaby closer doesn't have a temper tantrum.

The only reliever I would put in the same sentence with Rivera is Eckersly. His run in the late 80's/early 90's stands up to anybody.

Okay you completely misunderstood my post.

There is no one who compares with Rivera. No one. My point is bringing up Pappelbon was how many pitches are in your repetoire. Neither Paps or Rivera would be half as good as they are now as starters, fuck I don't even think they'd be in the majors.

To be a quality starter you need more than two pitches, even though Mariano's one pitch is un-hittable. Through a line-up two or three times.......

My point in comparing the two was the difference in starters vs. relievers. Pappelbon is pretty good, but he's no Rivera. I'm glad he's on the team and all, but I can't wait to see him go. See ya.

I'll be more stoked than when Nomah left, but not as stoked as I'll be when they finally sell high on Jacoby......overfuckingrated. He's fast.....that's about it.

[Machado]

OK I must confess. I am sick and tired of Rick Sutcliffe broadcasting games on ESPN.
He used to be very good in my book.
Lately he is more annoying than ever.
He tends to "predict" the next pitch or "predict" the next play far too often. Most of the time his predictions do not come true, so he looks foolish.

To his credit, the guy is not biased.
He kisses the asses of superstars from both teams that are playing.

[SkyDog112046]

The Red Sox released Penny to make room for Wagner. Smoltz and Penny combined to go 3-11 since the time when Boston had a 3 game division lead. With those two stiffs gone they now have a better chance of getting the wild card.

Theo brings in pitchers coming off of injuries for cheap money which is ok because you can get lucky once in a while. But he gives them incentive laden contracts that cause the stiffs to want to keep pitching and stay on the roster rather than accept a minor league assignment to work through their issues so they end up trying to do it in the majors while costing the team games.

[Gritt]

Okay you completely misunderstood my post.

There is no one who compares with Rivera. No one. My point is bringing up Pappelbon was how many pitches are in your repetoire. Neither Paps or Rivera would be half as good as they are now as starters, fuck I don't even think they'd be in the majors.

To be a quality starter you need more than two pitches, even though Mariano's one pitch is un-hittable. Through a line-up two or three times.......

My point in comparing the two was the difference in starters vs. relievers. Pappelbon is pretty good, but he's no Rivera. I'm glad he's on the team and all, but I can't wait to see him go. See ya.

I'll be more stoked than when Nomah left, but not as stoked as I'll be when they finally sell high on Jacoby......overfuckingrated. He's fast.....that's about it.

I totally got what you were saying after I re-read your post. You're right. Rivera's cutter is un-hittable but he couldn't pull that off for 6 or 7 innings.