Killeverything's (New)NeverEndingBaseballThread

[killeverything]

Yep. Parker and Dawson are not unlike Jim Rice on being borderline. I'm not opposed to Dave Parker being in. Maybe it the drugs, and the characteristics of a MLB player on and off the field ( again see: Ty Cobb ), that they're supposed to adhere to. That hasn't swayed voters. Maybe that's the same thing with Tim Raines, whose only fall back was to be good at something, that Rickey Henderson completely surpassed everyone in.

The Hall discussions are going to get a lot more interesting now. For players sitting right at the edge. Roids, drugs, differences in eras. These are things that your going to have to look through the numbers.

Punk, I rank Rice over the Hawk, but not so much Parker.

[Punk]

Punk, I rank Rice over the Hawk, but not so much Parker.

How? Dawson had more runs, hits, 2Bs, 3Bs, HRs, RBIs, and SBs than Rice, plus Dawson won 8 gold gloves.

[killeverything]

What Itjogs said.

I think Rice's inclusion is a really good thing. It will open up the door for more discussion. Pulling the election process from just a "good ole' boys club". Into who actually deserves the honor and why. Especially with PEDs, it's easier to appreciate what some of these ballplayers did without it.

[WOLF]

Chiming in on some of the above -

- I think there's a bit of a bias against ex-Expos re the Hall of Fame. Face it, Carter went in as an Expo and was none too happy about it (ungrateful fucker) because he felt it would hurt his value for signings, etc. I think Raines would definitely go in as an Expo, and probably Dawson too (though maybe a Cub) - years from now, when kids are walking through Cooperstown, I don't think the powers that be want kids looking at plaques and saying "who" with regards to the team.

- Having grown up in Montreal and having watched every ball player that came through here from about 1977 on, Eliis Valentine might be one of the biggest wastes of talent ever. You know how everyone, rightfully, goes ga-ga over Vladmir Guerrero? Well that's what Eliis was - he had it all but the Montreal party scene destroyed him. He's actually turned himself around and does a great job counselling youth now, but you can't help wonder what could have been. I remember he was crushed when the Expos traded him to the Mets for Jeff Reardon.

- The turf at Montreal's Olympic Stadium took YEARS off Dawson's career. His stats could have been way better had it not been for that. Again, if Rice is in, I don't see how Dawson isn't.

- If Rickey Henderson never existed, the "poor man's Rickey Henderson", Tim Raines, would be held in incredibly high regard in baseball lore. For year's he was "the National League's Rickey Henderson" - I think people should remember that and pay him a bit more respect. I don't know if he gets in, but I think he deserved a higher percent of votes than he got.

- After the 1994 strike team, the Expos from 1979 to 1982 were pretty much one of the most complete squads there ever was - every year they barely got beat out by the team that won the World Series. Yeah, there was the core of Carter/Valentine/Dawson/Raines, but a lot of other great players were part of those squads too. Steve Rogers, Bill Lee, Bill Gullickson, Charlie Lee, Scott Sanderson, Jeff Reardon, Warren Cromartie, Jerry White, Rodney Scott, Larry Parrish, etc - the Expos were drawing 2,000,000 in those days!

Ah, memories. It's all I got left and it KILLS.

[Punk]

As a diehard Pirates fan since I was 5, I used to loathe playing Montreal...it was like one dangerous motherfucker after another in that lineup. And Steve Rodgers was pretty damn good for a while too...I saw him toss a 1 hitter at Three Rivers Stadium in like 1980.

That said, I can't agree on the whole 'potential' argument. The fact remains that Dawson's stats CLOBBER Rice's...period. How he's not in there, especially when he was 10 times the fielder and baserunner that Rice was, is a true crime.

[Machado]

How many more days
until pitchers & catchers are due to report?

Beginning to get a small itch for baseball.

[killeverything]

How many more days until pitchers and catchers report?
Beginning to get a small itch for baseball.

Pitchers, catchers, and injured players are due to report on Feb.14.

- I think there's a bit of a bias against ex-Expos re the Hall of Fame. Face it, Carter went in as an Expo and was none too happy about it (ungrateful fucker) because he felt it would hurt his value for signings, etc. I think Raines would definitely go in as an Expo, and probably Dawson too (though maybe a Cub) - years from now, when kids are walking through Cooperstown, I don't think the powers that be want kids looking at plaques and saying "who" with regards to the team.

- Having grown up in Montreal and having watched every ball player that came through here from about 1977 on, Eliis Valentine might be one of the biggest wastes of talent ever. You know how everyone, rightfully, goes ga-ga over Vladmir Guerrero? Well that's what Eliis was - he had it all but the Montreal party scene destroyed him. He's actually turned himself around and does a great job counselling youth now, but you can't help wonder what could have been. I remember he was crushed when the Expos traded him to the Mets for Jeff Reardon.

- The turf at Montreal's Olympic Stadium took YEARS off Dawson's career. His stats could have been way better had it not been for that. Again, if Rice is in, I don't see how Dawson isn't.

- If Rickey Henderson never existed, the "poor man's Rickey Henderson", Tim Raines, would be held in incredibly high regard in baseball lore. For year's he was "the National League's Rickey Henderson" - I think people should remember that and pay him a bit more respect. I don't know if he gets in, but I think he deserved a higher percent of votes than he got.

- After the 1994 strike team, the Expos from 1979 to 1982 were pretty much one of the most complete squads there ever was - every year they barely got beat out by the team that won the World Series. Yeah, there was the core of Carter/Valentine/Dawson/Raines, but a lot of other great players were part of those squads too. Steve Rogers, Bill Lee, Bill Gullickson, Charlie Lee, Scott Sanderson, Jeff Reardon, Warren Cromartie, Jerry White, Rodney Scott, Larry Parrish, etc - the Expos were drawing 2,000,000 in those days!

Ah, memories. It's all I got left and it KILLS.

When Pedro Martinez won the World Series in 2004, he dedicated it to Montreal. He said "this is for the Montreal Expos fans. If the strike didn't happen we would've won the World Series that year." Looking at that team. I think he's right.

Punk, I think that Rice's induction will end up paving the way for Dawson.

[Punk]

I was just looking at Dawson logically...Parker is my favorite player of all time. I know he has no chance of getting in, and it pisses me off because he compares favorably to Rice.

[killeverything]

I was just looking at Dawson logically...Parker is my favorite player of all time. I know he has no chance of getting in, and it pisses me off because he compares favorably to Rice.

I agree with you. Just like what was said before, I think with his off-field actions. It angered the "Good Ole' Boys Club", because he didn't conduct himself right, etc., etc., blah, blah.

What really works against him is the fall out from the Steroid era. Now more than ever an association with drugs is going to shoot you in the foot so to speak.

As for better numbers than Rice. Dwight Evans had better #s, but isn't in. Dewey just didn't have a season like Rice in '78, although he was on the team.

*Edit*

I just got the 2009 Hardball Times Baseball Annual. Check out this little fun fact for 2008.

Mariano Rivera struck out 12.83 batters for each one he walked. The best record in the majors last season. Hmmmm and I thought he was done

[JakeYonkel]

Well, shifting the HOF convo back over to Rickey Henderson - I know it's been said but I honestly can't believe 28 fucking writers left him off the ballot.

I mean, Cal Ripken Jr. only got 98.5% of the vote too, but honestly in situations like this the writer should have his vote revoked. Obviously it's not a deal breaker or anything since he flew in otherwise, but it's just absurd to think that 28 separate people sat down, crunched the numbers, and for one reason or another decided Rickey fucking Henderson wasn't Hall of Fame-worthy.

The same HOF that features Phil Rizzuto and Kirby Puckett, no less.

[tin00can]

Well, shifting the HOF convo back over to Rickey Henderson - I know it's been said but I honestly can't believe 28 fucking writers left him off the ballot.

I mean, Cal Ripken Jr. only got 98.5% of the vote too, but honestly in situations like this the writer should have his vote revoked. Obviously it's not a deal breaker or anything since he flew in otherwise, but it's just absurd to think that 28 separate people sat down, crunched the numbers, and for one reason or another decided Rickey fucking Henderson wasn't Hall of Fame-worthy.

The same HOF that features Phil Rizzuto and Kirby Puckett, no less.

I heard somebody - Buster Olney, perhaps - talking about it and he says some of the older voters routinely don't vote for anybody the first time they are eligible. Those people should lose their votes. That is just fucking stupid and spiteful.

Why does this even matter to me?

[tin00can]

They had a story today about one of the guys who didn't vote for Henderson. He was a 70 year old writer who said he put down 8 other players but forgot about Henderson and wasn't aware of his stats. After being informed of Rickey's stats he said he wished he would have known that - he would have voted for him. The guy should get his voting rights revoked.

...and then he tried to start his car with the remote control for the TV.

Jesus. How can a guy who isn't aware of Ricky fucking Henderson get to vote for HOF? That's ridiculous.

[Sheep_Mafia]

Glad to see the Jim Rice saga end. I like that its hard to get into baseball's hall but I think its gets too complicated. Rice was one of the best hitters of his era, I certainly hated on his ass back in the day because of his bat. He was like Ortiz for me, just hated to see him at the plate. As everyone else stated, the process is retarded, going from 29% to 77% without ever getting another hit or rbi.

Today though with respect to Rice is Rickey Henderson's day. One of the greatest weapons the game has ever seen. Incredibly underrated to me. He could dominate a game and changed the way the game was managed by opposing teams. The steals, the runs and the power-just an incredible player. Bonds has the walk record because teams didn't want to face his bat but Rickey is right there with him and teams would do anything to keep him off base, which is remarkable. Teams knew a walk was a double or triple and he still managed it over 2000 times. I read where he walked 796 times to lead off an inning. Amazing given his speed. Just shows, aside from his small strikezone that he was in teams heads.

I think Greg Maddux will come very close to 100%, but there will be some idiots out there who bypass him on the first ballot. Mariano Rivera (and yeah Kill he was incredible this season, check that whip) will be penalized by some for being a reliever but deserves to go in at 100% as well. Another game changer and the most important player to his team (a dynasty) of this era imo.

[JakeYonkel]

Nobody will ever get in 100%, but it's fun to think of guys who may.

Maddux, absolutely. Rivera too. Manny. A-Rod.

Other guys who should make the Hall but may have to wait a few years... Glavine (deserves it but not first ballot), Smoltz (will be penalized for low career win total which is retarded), Randy Johnson (really didn't find himself til his late 20s), Pudge, Pedro. Schilling will be borderline. Mussina too. I'm sure there's more but I'm tired.

[nycyankee]

Derek Lowe signs with the Atlanta Braves


4yrs 60 million.

[TawnyVonJagger]

Congrats to Rice and Rickey. I cannot fucking WAIT to hear Rickey's speech!
Hawk gets hosed again!

[Hootchietoad]

The list of players who will be eligible for election into the Hall of Fame for the first time in 2010 includes (in alphabetical order): Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura, and Todd Zeile.

Who's in? No one?

[Punk]

There is absolutely no way McGriff gets in, at least for now...his stats are comparable to Rice, so he'll be on the ballot for a while. 1 top 5 finish in MVP voting doesn't help either.

Alomar should get in because there's no one else on that list that's getting in.

I say Alomar and Dawson next year.

[JakeYonkel]

Hard to make a case for ANY of them as first-ballot entries but in time, of that class, I could see Alomar, Barry Larkin, Edgar, and maybe McGriff making it.

[Hootchietoad]

I would vote Alomar, Larkin and maybe Gallaraga (though being in Colorado no doubt helped his early to mid 90's numbers.)

Alomar was great, dropped quickly and his spitting incident won't help.

Larkin was a very solid ss, played 18 years with one team, 12 time all star, gold gloves, world series ring, silver sluggers, etc...

McGriff and Gallaraga are very similar...Andres will get some respect for coming back from cancer and still producing.

[Punk]

I can't see Martinez or Larkin making it...both solid players, for sure, but Hall of Fame worthy? I don't think so.

[killeverything]

From the list next year. I don't see one that is a first ballot guy. You can a make a borderline case for a lot of them though to be inducted on later ballots.

I don't think Tommy John should be in, but his doctor should.

Agree with you there. This was his last year on the ballot I thought. So if the Veterans Committee doesn't vote him in ( and they shouldn't ), he won't be enshrined.

Since were still in full Hall Of Fame mode. Here's some stats from the very first vote that will make your stomach turn ( February 1936 ). Turn on the level that Willie Mays didn't get 30 votes.....which should be punishable by death.....preferably by fire.

Ty Cobb....222 votes ( 98.6% )
Babe Ruth.....215 votes ( 95.1% ) The greatest fucking player of all fucking time didn't get 100%?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Honus Wagner......215 votes ( 95.1% )
Christy Mathewson......205 votes ( 90.7% )
Walter Johnson......189 votes ( 83.6% )

Napolean Lajoie finished sixth. Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins, Cy Young, etc.

Fun stat of the day:

2008 - Nick Swisher made 4 errors in 535 innings playing CF.

That should be the reason that the MFY are looking to move him rumors are bullshit.

Oh, and Sheepmafia. Where the fuck have you been?

[killeverything]

Tampa Bay signed Gabe Kapler to a 1 year deal.

I think that could be a good pickup, not unlike the potential of Rocco Baldelli. A veteran prescence in the clubhouse, that team seems to need it.

Here's Schilling's take on it ( Schill has a take on everything ):

Sabermetric guys will laugh, stat guys will moan, but the Rays signing of Gabe Kapler will have an impact on this division next year. Gabe is not only a nice addition as an extra bat and OF, but his clubhouse presence is beyond measure. One of my all time favorite teammates, and people, this guy is a rock in the clubhouse.

He brings a ton of veteran qualities but beyond that he’s a stabilizer. He is one of the guys that never allows a clubhouse, or team, to go too high, or too low. He’s much more unique than many think or believe, just ask the guys that were here with him, ask the Brewers teammates he played with last year.

The only fear for a team like Tampa is a letdown in my opinion, not having guys in that clubhouse to push and make them understand that going out this year and being mediocore makes last year a fluke. I never wanted to be on a team or thought of as a fluke, since that denotes luck beyond skill. Gabe, and Pat Burrell, are going to help that team be good again next year. Not to mention Joe Maddon is a truly good guy. I’ve known him for 20-plus years and he’s a major reason I was even discovered. I don’t know what kind of manager he is but I’ve heard nothing that would make me not want to play for him or think it wouldn’t be a blast.

If they can stay healthy and compete again they can truly turn this division into a three-team show, and that would be a good thing.

Also the Seattle Mariners signed Tom Tango.

Tom Tango is a SABR guy, he writes for Hardball Times frequently. He specializes in DiPS ( Defense Independent Pitching Stats ). He wrote The Book - Playing The Percentages In Baseball, which changed the way teams evaluate defense. He also pioneered the Marcel The Monkey Forecasting System, a simple player projection system which uses three years of weighted player statistics with statistical regression and player age adjustment.

I see this as a big signing for a team who fired ( next to Minyana ), one of the worst GMs in recent memory ( Bill Bavasi ). He'll have a role not unlike Bill James ( Executive Of Baseball Operations ) for the Mighty Red Sox. That could be good, since the Mariners have 4 first round draft picks in the upcoming draft. For rebuliding after Bavasi's idiot fucking moves. This is a great pick up for the FO.

This dude is one of my idols. Here's his website:

www.tangotiger.net

With Seattle rebuilding, Oakland's pickup of Giambi and Holliday, and Anaheim losing Teix. I think we could maybe see a race in the AL West.

[Machado]

Regarding Henderson and Rice:

What are the odds that Rice is the 1st to speak, while
Henderson goes last. I mean, how could anybody follow
Henderson's acceptance speech at the HOF.
IMPOSSIBLE!

The class next year looks very, very weak. I don't see a 1st ballot
HOF either.

[JakeYonkel]

This is pretty cool - a preview for MLB 09: The Show featuring the new Yankee Stadium with Sabathia and Teixeira.

http://www.mtv.com/videos/movies/331405 ... on-3.jhtml

I think The Show is an awful game, but it's still a pretty neat clip.

[Facedown]

What's the scoop on the Yankees being investigated about funds used for the new stadium?

[JakeYonkel]

Not really paying that much attention to the story.

I was more flabbergasted that Citi Bank was retaining naming rights to the new Mets' ballpark despite taking all of that taxpayer money in the bailout.

[Machado]

What's the scoop on the Yankees being investigated about funds used for the new stadium?

A New York Assembly committee investigating the use of millions of dollars in public funding to build the new Yankee Stadium has subpoenaed the team's president.

Go to espn.com for more info

[Hootchietoad]

Tampa Bay signed Gabe Kapler to a 1 year deal.

I think that could be a good pickup, not unlike the potential of Rocco Baldelli. A veteran prescence in the clubhouse, that team seems to need it.

Here's Schilling's take on it ( Schill has a take on everything ):

Sabermetric guys will laugh, stat guys will moan, but the Rays signing of Gabe Kapler will have an impact on this division next year. Gabe is not only a nice addition as an extra bat and OF, but his clubhouse presence is beyond measure. One of my all time favorite teammates, and people, this guy is a rock in the clubhouse.

He brings a ton of veteran qualities but beyond that he’s a stabilizer. He is one of the guys that never allows a clubhouse, or team, to go too high, or too low. He’s much more unique than many think or believe, just ask the guys that were here with him, ask the Brewers teammates he played with last year.

The only fear for a team like Tampa is a letdown in my opinion, not having guys in that clubhouse to push and make them understand that going out this year and being mediocore makes last year a fluke. I never wanted to be on a team or thought of as a fluke, since that denotes luck beyond skill. Gabe, and Pat Burrell, are going to help that team be good again next year. Not to mention Joe Maddon is a truly good guy. I’ve known him for 20-plus years and he’s a major reason I was even discovered. I don’t know what kind of manager he is but I’ve heard nothing that would make me not want to play for him or think it wouldn’t be a blast.

If they can stay healthy and compete again they can truly turn this division into a three-team show, and that would be a good thing.

Also the Seattle Mariners signed Tom Tango.

Tom Tango is a SABR guy, he writes for Hardball Times frequently. He specializes in DiPS ( Defense Independent Pitching Stats ). He wrote The Book - Playing The Percentages In Baseball, which changed the way teams evaluate defense. He also pioneered the Marcel The Monkey Forecasting System, a simple player projection system which uses three years of weighted player statistics with statistical regression and player age adjustment.

I see this as a big signing for a team who fired ( next to Minyana ), one of the worst GMs in recent memory ( Bill Bavasi ). He'll have a role not unlike Bill James ( Executive Of Baseball Operations ) for the Mighty Red Sox. That could be good, since the Mariners have 4 first round draft picks in the upcoming draft. For rebuliding after Bavasi's idiot fucking moves. This is a great pick up for the FO.

This dude is one of my idols. Here's his website:

http://www.tangotiger.net

With Seattle rebuilding, Oakland's pickup of Giambi and Holliday, and Anaheim losing Teix. I think we could maybe see a race in the AL West.

So Schilling wants to pitch for Tampa this year?

[killeverything]

He stated last season that he wouldn't mind going there, to help mentor in the younger pitchers.

I'm not sure if he'll be able to return though. The problem with Clemens is now older pitchers all want that July signing, to pitch in the post season. Byrd has aluded to it, as did Schilling. I think it's bullshit personally. Don't go half a season for the post-season glory.

If Schill returns, he's said it's strictly to help his chances of getting into the Hall. As big of a fan I am of the guy, and would love to see one last go around at the Fens. I don't think he'll be effective enough to change his eligibility status either way. He could possibly end up damaging it. He still is the best post-season pitcher ever, that is why he'll warrant considerable votes. I think he gets in, but not on the first ballot.

Same with Moose. It really need to be looked at their pitching during the Selig/Balco years. They both have a shot.