Is/was Jimmy Johnson the Phil Jackson of football??

[Tymaster]

The on going Norv Turner discussions in these playoff threads got me thinking. The only reason Norv Turner and Dave Wanndstedt ever got head coaching jobs was thanks to being a part of Jimmy Johnson's "good ol' boy" club. Which leads to me ask this: How great of a coach was Jimmy Johnson really? When he took over at "The U," he inherited what Howard Schnellenberger had started. Ala Phil in the NBA. Then, when his Dallas Cowboys were slumping, some genius in Minnesota sent the following for Herschel friggin' Walker:
Dallas Cowboys Received
LB Jesse Solomon
LB David Howard
CB Issiac Holt
RB Darrin Nelson (traded to San Diego after he refused to report to Dallas)
DE Alex Stewart
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (12) (Alvin Harper)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (38) (Dixon Edwards)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (37) (Darren Woodson)
Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional) - (13) (traded to Philadelphia Eagles, and then to the Houston Oilers, who drafted Brad Hopkins).

Jerry Jones and Jimmy Johnson should sent the Vikings a ring for the SB's they got with the talent.

Now, take a look at what Jimmy Johnson did at Oklahoma State and with the Miami Dolphins. Pretty mediocre.

Discuss..............................

[thejuggernaut]

Jimmy Johnson was brilliant.

Just because HS left him something means shit all; just ask Florida fans how well Ron Zook did with Spurrier's stacked cabinet, Frank Solich from Tom Osbourne, Gary Gibbs from Barry Switzer etc etc.

The Walker trade was stupid only in retrospect; the Cowboys were rebuilding and the best way to break in a new team is running the ball, and here this college coach was offering his best weapon ?

If you're Minnesota, who believed they were an RB away from the top of the heap, you make that trade.

Jimmy Johnson built a team from scratch.

His Miami years were a bit different.

He'd already run one legend out of a big city; he was a little old to do it again.

Plus, it was a different challenge. He didn't know he was only going to be in Dallas for 5 years. He was building long term. When he went to Miami, he knew it was only going to be 3-4 years, so he didn't really have time to break in another young QB in the "new NFL", so he tried to rebuild on the fly with Marino.

All things considered, he did an allright job.

You look at how many excellent defensive players came from the Johnson era in Miami and you realize he was no fluke.

Besides, there's nothing wrong with being Phil Jackson.

Some guys can scout players and nothing more. Other can develop them and nothing more. Others can manage them and nothing more. In the modern sports era, very few guys are good at all 3.

[Tymaster]

Very well said!
I was just putting it out there for debate.
BTW, I think Phil is a BRILLIANT coach, but I would love to see him take on a team like Memphis or the Clippers and see how well he would do at developing a team that wasn't already stacked. My guess is, he could develop a team like that to respectability, but not a championship.

[thejuggernaut]

Very well said!
I was just putting it out there for debate.
BTW, I think Phil is a BRILLIANT coach, but I would love to see him take on a team like Memphis or the Clippers and see how well he would do at developing a team that wasn't already stacked. My guess is, he could develop a team like that to respectability, but not a championship.

True.

A SLIGHT (ever so slight) argument can be made that he already has. When the Lakers gutted their team after their run with only Kobe Bryant left over, and he took his leave of absence, he essentially started from scratch.

Now, the key pieces to the NEW Lakers powerhouse were acquired because, well, they're the Lakers and they have the resources. However, there have been LOTS of teams that loaded up on talent that couldn't quite make it work (Jackson's 2004 edition comes to mind), so he deserves some credit for identifying the pieces he needed and then delivering the goods with them.

Bryant aside, this Lakers team is completely different than the 3-peat one.

You can almost say Jackson has led 2 teams, and 3 different casts to titles.

Pretty impressive.

[Tymaster]

Very well said!
I was just putting it out there for debate.
BTW, I think Phil is a BRILLIANT coach, but I would love to see him take on a team like Memphis or the Clippers and see how well he would do at developing a team that wasn't already stacked. My guess is, he could develop a team like that to respectability, but not a championship.

True.

A SLIGHT (ever so slight) argument can be made that he already has. When the Lakers gutted their team after their run with only Kobe Bryant left over, and he took his leave of absence, he essentially started from scratch.

Now, the key pieces to the NEW Lakers powerhouse were acquired because, well, they're the Lakers and they have the resources. However, there have been LOTS of teams that loaded up on talent that couldn't quite make it work (Jackson's 2004 edition comes to mind), so he deserves some credit for identifying the pieces he needed and then delivering the goods with them.

Bryant aside, this Lakers team is completely different than the 3-peat one.

You can almost say Jackson has led 2 teams, and 3 different casts to titles.

Pretty impressive.

I agree 100%. I just wish that somewhere along the line Phil would have taken on a more "brave" role like the Larry Browns and the Don Nelsons. But we know that will never happen, so it will be always be a basketball "what if."
But let me add, he is indeed a great coach. The way he coaxed HUGE ego's in both Chicago and LA was something that no other coach was capable of. The guy would personally go drag Dennis Rodman off his couch and make get Dennis get his head out of his ass and come help the team. Then he had to put up with an obviously spoiled Kobe Bryant and make him co-exist with Shaq daddy. All the while getting the most out of role players like Rick Fox, Robert Horry, and Derek Fisher. How Phil got 3 rings with the likes of Glen Rice, Horace Grant, and AC Green starting down low in LA I will never know. However it is enough to cement his legacy with me. That and the guys that were called "centers" while he was in Chicago. Not a one of them was worth a damn. Jesus, Luc Longley was so bad, they were still using a then ancient Robert Parish at center on the 97 team........

[dtmfs]

he drafted briliantly on the Defensive side while in miami, and the D he put together was pretty stout for awhile, problem was Dan marino was ancient and on two bad knees, the offesnse as a whole sucked. never forget that beatdown by JAX, 62-7
notable picks by JJ IN MIAMI

Madison
Surtain
Taylor
Thomas

edited to add
juggs beat me to it.

[Heenan Snuka]

one thing I always liked about Jackson was his use of the word "title" to refer to the championship

I never heard any coach refer to it as a "title" except Jackson...this is funny because of Jackson's funny personality, it made him sound like he was wearing an actual belt on his waist as in wrestling

considering he is super-tall it makes it even funnier

[Rageman]

Jimmy Johnson is the most overrated coach in NFL history. Much like how Joe Namath is undeservedly in the Hall Of Fame.

Jerry Jones built that team mostly and most of his antics are now illegal

1 There was no salary cap when they put together his team. Jones pretty much forced the league into a salary cap when he bought the Cowboys by the way he ran things : ala Steinbrenner

2 He would threaten potential draft picks that if they didn't sign on the spot, they would not draft them.

3 Coke was the official drink of the NFL and he got money for that. He owned Texas Stadium and made Pepsi the official drink of the stadium and until it was outlawed, he was the only owner that drew money from both soda companies.

4 Jimmy Johnson gets undeserved credit for all of the blockbuster trades that went down went he was coach. 3/4 of his trades were busts but no one focuses on that.

5 He took a 9-7 Miami team and led them to . . . 9-7 when he was done. He became obsolete when the salary cap handcuffed him and they couldn't strong arm draft picks. I love how his final NFL game was a 62-7 loss.

Anyone else not surprised he hasn't been back on the sidelines? He'll never succeed in today's NFL.

[thejuggernaut]

Jimmy Johnson is the most overrated coach in NFL history. Much like how Joe Namath is undeservedly in the Hall Of Fame.

Jerry Jones built that team mostly and most of his antics are now illegal

1 There was no salary cap when they put together his team. Jones pretty much forced the league into a salary cap when he bought the Cowboys by the way he ran things : ala Steinbrenner

2 He would threaten potential draft picks that if they didn't sign on the spot, they would not draft them.

3 Coke was the official drink of the NFL and he got money for that. He owned Texas Stadium and made Pepsi the official drink of the stadium and until it was outlawed, he was the only owner that drew money from both soda companies.

4 Jimmy Johnson gets undeserved credit for all of the blockbuster trades that went down went he was coach. 3/4 of his trades were busts but no one focuses on that.

5 He took a 9-7 Miami team and led them to . . . 9-7 when he was done. He became obsolete when the salary cap handcuffed him and they couldn't strong arm draft picks. I love how his final NFL game was a 62-7 loss.

Anyone else not surprised he hasn't been back on the sidelines? He'll never succeed in today's NFL.

Jerry Jones built that team.

LOL

Jerry Jones signed the paychecks, nothing more.

Johnson had some busts, sure. So has every other GM. Johnsons was smart enough to understand the principle that the more coal, the more potential for diamonds.

Jerry Jones also signed a deal with Amex when Visa the NFL's credit card of choice.

I tip my hat to Jones for that. He owned the stadium, and if he wanted Amex, that was his choice.

I have absolutely no qualms with the guy who owns THE marquee NFL telling the ridiculous NFL "I make YOU money, not the other way around. You own a logo, not my stadium. If I want people to be able to buy a Pepsi with an Amex card, go fuck yourself".

And LOL at "He would threaten potential draft picks that if they didn't sign on the spot, they would not draft them." There wasn't the ridiculous slot payment for draft picks that there has been the past decade +. When Johnson built the team, that didn't exist, so your argument is retarded.

Didn't sign on the spot they wouldn't draft them. LOL. Good, another team will draft him without a prick like that.

As for the salary cap, Johnson's Cowboys were a team of kids, none of whom had ridiculous contracts at that point. The team salary wasn't even that high.

You seem to be under some sort of deluded impression that Johnson just bought up every free agent, like Steinbrenner. Jones started to do that when Johnson was gone and he believed he was the architect of the Cowboys. Johnson built through the draft.

If you remember, free agency didn't begin until 1993. By then, Dallas had already built their SB winning team through the draft. Jones was trying to keep expenses as low as possible after having ponied up for the team and the stadium.

Also, if you remember, his back to back NFL rushing champion RB Emmit Smith held out to start the 1993 season because Jones wouldn't pay him.

So, since there was no free agency and he wouldn't pay his existing players, the whole "forced the league into a salary cap when he bought the Cowboys by the way he ran things : ala Steinbrenner" is one of the most insanely incorrect statement ever made public.

Either your timelines are amazingly screwed up, or you are a Cowboys hater who sees things from a slanted perspective and are not aware that the public can read your amazingly incorrect words.

Maybe a bit of both.

Regardless, Jimmy Johnson, thanks to great scouting and building through the DRAFT probably has more rings than your favorite coach, which is why you're upset. In fact, it's entirely possible Jimmy Johnson's Cowboys were a rival of your favorite team.

Hell, you might even be a Dolphan, pissed because Movieman ran over his head Don Shula out of town.

[KillDevilHill]

I read a book penned by Bob ackles who helped built The Super bowl winning cowboys and worked with Jimmy in Miami and said he was best out of anyone he worked with in the NFL. Also pretty much summed up that jones had very little to do with the actual team of the dallas cowboys

[thejuggernaut]

I read a book penned by Bob ackles who helped built The Super bowl winning cowboys and worked with Jimmy in Miami and said he was best out of anyone he worked with in the NFL. Also pretty much summed up that jones had very little to do with the actual team of the dallas cowboys

Exactly.

When the Joneses (Jerry and Steven) have been in charge of personnel Dallas has been atrocious.

During Jones' tenure, the only time Dallas has even been remotely good was when Johnson built his team, and when Parcells assembled his pieces.

After the last wave of Johnson built depth was gone, starting under Switzer, Dallas was terrible (except for one winning season) until Parcells arrived and rebuilt them.

In other words, Jerry Jones is a great businessman, but he hasn't the first clue how to build a football team.

Which is why you can understand Johnson getting pissed when Jones said his "any one of 500 coaches could have won those Super Bowls" piece. Imagine you are Johnson. You build that team. And here the cheque signer is saying something that foolish. Never mind that you just finished a Super Bowl year after having started 0-2 because your clueless owner didn't want to pay his key player.

Jimmy Johnson was a scouting demon and had evaluators all over the country.

It's the main difference between the Bengals and the Johnson Cowboys;

Jimmy Johnson believed the game was won with scouting.

Mike Brown didn't like to spend money on scouting and relied on highlight tapes, measurements and stat lines.

There will always be second guessing of draft choices, and NO GM is immune to a mistake here and there. However, look at Mike Brown's track record from 1992 (when he had control) until the final draft before Marvin Lewis' arrival for the 2003 draft. Obviously, the Bengals' scouting has improved under Lewis (which was promised) but he clearly forgot to shell out for thorough background checks as well >

1992 - David Klingler (could have had Troy Vincent, Bob Whitfield, Leon Searcy, Dale Carter)

1993 - John Copeland (could have had Roaf, Bettis, Robert Smith, Stubblefield)

1994 - Dan Wilkinson (could have had Faulk, McGinest, Bryant Young, Sam Adams, Aaron Glenn)

1995 - Ki Jana Carter (could have had Boselli, McNair, Kevin Carter, Joey Galloway, Warren Sapp, Ty Law, Derrick Brooks)

1996 - Willie Anderson (can't complain about that one)

1997 - Reinard Wilson (could have had Trevor Pryce - admittedly, this was a weak draft year)

1998 - Takeo Spikes (good choice, a tad overrated, another weak draft but Randy Moss was still available)

1999 - Akili Smith (could have had Edgerrin James, Ricky Williams, Tory Holt, Champ Bailey, Chris McAlister, Javon Kearse, Antoine Winfield)

2000 - Peter Warrick (could have had Jamal Lewis, Plaxico, Urlacher, John Abraham, Shaun Alexander)

2001 - Justin Smith (decent pick but they passed on LT, Richard Seymour, Marcus Stroud, Santana Moss, Steve Hutchinson, Deuce McAllister, Reggie Wayne.

2002 - Levi Jones (could have had Dwight Freeny, Albert Haynesworth, Ed Reed)