Its the anniversary of Roe V Wade

[bane]

You can't terminate a human life based on makes you feel happier or what is easier.

Whether you like it or not, yes, she can.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

You can't terminate a human life based on makes you feel happier or what is easier.

Whether you like it or not, yes, she can.

And whether you like it or not, the sky is blue. Pointing out the obvious serves no purpose. We are arguing over abortion and I assume we all know what the current law is. If you couldn't figure it out before, my point and argument is that you shouldn't be able to.

[vlad]

I do know men that have "snuck off" to get vasectomies...just saying. And I applaud them, btw.

As for wives ordering their husbands to get cut....think about it. After probably years (years for me) of having to have whatever contraption or chemical in their bodies (face it, women bear the brunt of birth control) and having the kids...I don't think it's too much to ask that the man actually take one for the team.

Yeah, yeah, the woman could get a tubal ligation, but it is simpler and cheaper for the man...

As for abortion...was someone bored? This is always a useless conversation.

[PoisondOne]

On another note that Calexxia touched on earlier...
Why do I need my husband's permission to have an ablasion or hysterectomy, but my husband can go anywhere and have a vasectomy performed without my permission?

What men are sneaking off to get vasectomies ?

Men are usually ordered to get vasectomies by their wives, so I am not sure where you're getting this whole permission thing.

I would never order my husband to get a vasectomy, but if he wanted one or decided to get one the doctor would not hesitate, would not ask him if he has children and would not ask him to bring his wife with him to sign documents.

On the other hand, I can not get an ablasion, hysterectomy or my tubes tied without being asked those questions or without my husband's permission...which he has willingly given and I still have not found a doctor to perform something that would relieve an ovarian disorder I have.

Why? Because we don't have children and we've made that decision together after my 4th miscarriage 11 years ago. We are now in our mid-forties and know that I can't carry a child to term. Yet the doctors still ask those questions and will not provide me with something that has been advised because I don't have children.

I do know men that have "snuck off" to get vasectomies...just saying. And I applaud them, btw.

As for wives ordering their husbands to get cut....think about it. After probably years (years for me) of having to have whatever contraption or chemical in their bodies (face it, women bear the brunt of birth control) and having the kids...I don't think it's too much to ask that the man actually take one for the team.

Yeah, yeah, the woman could get a tubal ligation, but it is simpler and cheaper for the man...

As for abortion...was someone bored? This is always a useless conversation.

I can't even get a tubal ligation as I can not find a doctor willing to do it. A 40-something couple without kids that has been advised by the OB/GYN to have one of the above surgeries and I can't find a doctor willing to do it because I might change my mind and want children.

I've been fighting this battle for 12 years...

Vlad -- I agree, abortion is a pretty useless conversation that neither side ever comes out winning.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

I do know men that have "snuck off" to get vasectomies...just saying. And I applaud them, btw.

Why would you applaud hiding something like that from your spouse. I would never get a vasectomy, but if I did it would be something that my wife and I would decide on together. Your mentality astonishes me.

[vlad]

To PoisondOne....yeah..the patronising OB/GYNs who can't imagine that a mature woman would have the self knowledge that she was DONE having kids. I really, really hate those fuckers.

Especially for older women....with all the things that can go wrong. The Down's crapshoot, especially for those over 40...and with your history. It's gobsmacking.

And to Buttnoid...you are labouring under the mistaken belief that I take you seriously.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

And to Buttnoid...you are labouring under the mistaken belief that I take you seriously.

Classic deflection. I shouldn't have expected anything more from you. Carry on like you're normal, I guess...

[chickenona]

I do know men that have "snuck off" to get vasectomies...just saying. And I applaud them, btw.

Why would you applaud hiding something like that from your spouse. I would never get a vasectomy, but if I did it would be something that my wife and I would decide on together. Your mentality astonishes me.

Wait until you've been married a few years and you'll understand a lot more. I realize that you're not going to take me seriously as an example because I've been very open on these boards about the fact that my marriage is weird and fucked-up. But I'm not even kidding. What everybody thinks marriage ought to be and what it actually is are two different things.

Maybe you're one of those principled people who thinks that the minute you're in a position where you feel you have to be dishonest with your spouse, you'd rather get a divorce than live with someone with whom you can't be completely truthful all the time. You'd be shocked, however, at how living with someone for a lengthy period, combining your money and property and having kids together, will change your views on EVERYTHING.

[lerxstcat]

I do know men that have "snuck off" to get vasectomies...just saying. And I applaud them, btw.

Why would you applaud hiding something like that from your spouse. I would never get a vasectomy, but if I did it would be something that my wife and I would decide on together. Your mentality astonishes me.

Wait until you've been married a few years and you'll understand a lot more. I realize that you're not going to take me seriously as an example because I've been very open on these boards about the fact that my marriage is weird and fucked-up. But I'm not even kidding. What everybody thinks marriage ought to be and what it actually is are two different things.

Maybe you're one of those principled people who thinks that the minute you're in a position where you feel you have to be dishonest with your spouse, you'd rather get a divorce than live with someone with whom you can't be completely truthful all the time. You'd be shocked, however, at how living with someone for a lengthy period, combining your money and property and having kids together, will change your views on EVERYTHING.

Maybe if you're talking about "Does my ass look fat" kind of things, a little white lie is okay. Dishonesty about ANYTHING substantive, though, is the death of trust in a relationship. A vasectomy is substantive if the woman married expecting to have children. If you can't honest enough to tell the truth about something THAT important, then yeah, you shouldn't be married to the person.

Tell them you're going to do it whether they like it or not, and weather that storm, if necessary. It's not either tell them or divorce them because you don't want to talk about it. Yeah, your SPOUSE might want to divorce you if it's something irreconcilable like kids or not - but if you lie, the whole marriage is built on a lie and will come apart eventually anyay.

Because if that lie seems to go undetected, you'll keep lying until something IS detected, then the shit hits the fan. I find out you've been bullshitting me for years, I'm gona have a huge problem with that. More than if you pissed me off with it upfront. I might not like that, but could deal with it. The dishonesty is worse.

All due respect, Chicke, and it's your life, but I don't agree.

[chickenona]

I personally can't imagine any circumstances under which my husband would have a vasectomy behind my back, and as an example that's a pretty big lie of omission. And I actually agree, in principle, that huge lies shouldn't exist in a marriage. But it happens, and it happens all the time.

Quite a while ago, my husband and I realized that there are huge gaps between us in terms of goals, values and priorities. We weighed splitting up very seriously. He had another woman he'd gotten close to (behind my back). But we've invested a lot in each other and our life as a team, and we decided to work out a situation where we're staying together because no single factor outside of our marriage is going to be big enough to supersede what we've already worked so hard to build together. This isn't set in stone, but for the time being it's working for us.

[bane]

I'm not sure what vasectomies have to do with abortion, but I certainly wasn't "ordered" to have mine. I could practically knock somebody up by winking at her, and after my 3rd child, it just seemed like a really good idea. Sure I discussed it with my wife, but the conversation was basically "I don't want any more kids, I'm getting a vesectomy, cool?" Her reaction was something along the lines of "Thank God."

[lerxstcat]

I personally can't imagine any circumstances under which my husband would have a vasectomy behind my back, and as an example that's a pretty big lie of omission. And I actually agree, in principle, that huge lies shouldn't exist in a marriage. But it happens, and it happens all the time.

Quite a while ago, my husband and I realized that there are huge gaps between us in terms of goals, values and priorities. We weighed splitting up very seriously. He had another woman he'd gotten close to (behind my back). But we've invested a lot in each other and our life as a team, and we decided to work out a situation where we're staying together because no single factor outside of our marriage is going to be big enough to supersede what we've already worked so hard to build together. This isn't set in stone, but for the time being it's working for us.

I think that's great, and I don't mean to say that the mere fact of discovering a big lie would make me walk away. I'm just saying that whatever the problems are. that are bound to happen because no two people are going to agree on everything, that to at least have it out in the open is better than deceit. Unless you think the guy would go violent on you, then yeah, hide your shit until you can get the fuck out of there.

As you say, you had enough holding you together to make it worthwhile for you to work things out. And I don't know how much lies of omission were his, and how much, if any, were yours. But I have to think that once everything was out in the open, that a lot of underlying stress was dissapated, and that would make it easier to work on a solution.

[vlad]

Good conversation Chickie and Lerxstcat.

Marriage...there have been times when i wanted to choke the living shit out of my husband and I actually left him for a year and moved back to Alaska. But in the end, I had married the man and I do love him..but beyond that, marriage is a partnership thing to me. It isn't about "romance", especially if there are kids involved. Plus for me, there is that residual Catholic thing...

I think the reason a lot of American marriages fail (or western marriages in general) is that we have been fed this "fairytale/soul mate" and after awhile the reality of living together gets a lot less "romantic"...I find it tragic that that aspect of the partnership of marriage, economic, etc..doesn't get stressed enough...it's all about the "big day", especially for girls and some pie in the sky lurve thing.

As for secrets...every marriage has them, or I should say, the vast majority of them anyway...though in a small town those secrets can be very hard to keep.

As for the men who got vasectomies...well one, for instance had been very clear that he did not want anymore children..wifey "agreed" and then deliberately had another kid because SHE wanted one, and she was very open about this after the fact...so he went and did the deed, though they later divorced. The other also had a wife who was very casual about birth control (she "forgot" to take her pills or "forgot" that taking antibiotics rendered her BC inert, she says anyway)....three kids worth. So yeah, I don't have a problem with them doing it...their partners certainly weren't being up front either...

[Calexxia]

And therein lies the crux of the problem--if you're in a relationship and the other partner doesn't want kids, you should NOT lie to have 'em. I ALWAYS knew I didn't want kids, and (as I mentioned originally) my first husband got a vasectomy BECAUSE the military wouldn't give me a tubal. The second husband, by that time, I was older, and I was able to convince the doctors that my mind wasn't going to change, so I did it, and haven't looked back. Any guy I'd consider being in a relationship with KNOWS this fact, and it's not been a dealbreaker yet!

[svgshadowhunter]

I had my daughter when I was 17, (pregnant @16) and I hid the pregnancy for 6 1/2 months from my folks, because I knew (thought) they would have my ass in a clinic before I could finish the sentence "mom, I'm sorry. I'm pregnant and....."

Turns out I was wrong, they were much more understanding than I could have imagined, but based on past history of just sketchy school grades, believe me, I thought I was in for The-war-To-End-All-Wars.

Back then, it was all black and white, like Chicke said. As a parent, it's much more gray shades. I would have definitely supported my daughter to have an abortion if she were in the same situation at that age, a 16 year old is not really mentally ready to bear the burden of motherhood, if not for the help of my parents, I would be living in poverty with some form of public assistance. Childcare costs are over 1000 dollars a month here.

Adoption is fine and dandy, but what of the child later deciding it's his/her "right" to know the birth mother? If you've closed the door on that chapter of your life, it isn't easy to have it wrenched open by a person you harbor guilt over already, to have more piled on, or a forced relationship when you never wanted one in the first place.

Nobody should be forced into parenthood. It's hard enough for those of us who choose it. I see the resentment my sister-in-law heaps on her children for "ruining" her figure, for not being born female, for demanding attention. Some people are not cut out for parenthood. I love my nephews, but they live wretched lives and are becoming petty criminals allowed to run wild, minor druggies who steal from my father, society's garbage. I have been assaulted, abused, and have finally washed my hands of my brother and his family. They (my nephews) would have been better off never born. They certainly were never wanted.

[lerxstcat]

I'm really saddened to hear you say your nephews shouldn't have been born. Maybe your brother and sister-in-law should have given them up for adoption. But the problem there sounds like it IS your brother and sister-in-law neglecting and resenting the kids. Maybe society would be better off euthanizing them than the kids, if you're looking at whose fault it is. The adults are society's garbage in that case, not the kids - yet, anyway.

As for adopted kids wanting to know the birth parents, in a lot of cases, by that time the birth parent wants to know them, too. But if they don't, nobody is going to force them to have a relationship with that child. I don't know why you'd think they would. If you say no and the kid doesn't get it, get a TRO.

I still think that if the mother doesn't want the child, but the father does, that the father should have the right to prevent his child from being killed. Like I said, kids flunk out in school and have to spend an extra year of their lives there - it doesn't end their lives. she can have the baby, give it to the father, and move on. again, assuming we aren't talking about a life-threatening condition for the mother - and remembering that abortion itself can go wrong and threaten the mother's life.

If a man who DOESN'T want a child can be forced to pay support for 18 years - which I agree with - then a man who DOES want his child should be able to make the mother who doesn't, carry it to term and then give it to him. 9 months vs. 18 years amounts to sniveling IMO.

as for those who say, maybe the mom will change her mindand want the child once born, that's GREAT! Both parents will want the child, a custody arrangement will be worked out, the child will have both parents. That's a positive development, not a negative. And meanwhile, the child will live.

I had my daughter when I was 17, (pregnant @16) and I hid the pregnancy for 6 1/2 months from my folks, because I knew (thought) they would have my ass in a clinic before I could finish the sentence "mom, I'm sorry. I'm pregnant and....."

Turns out I was wrong, they were much more understanding than I could have imagined, but based on past history of just sketchy school grades, believe me, I thought I was in for The-war-To-End-All-Wars.

Back then, it was all black and white, like Chicke said. As a parent, it's much more gray shades. I would have definitely supported my daughter to have an abortion if she were in the same situation at that age, a 16 year old is not really mentally ready to bear the burden of motherhood, if not for the help of my parents, I would be living in poverty with some form of public assistance. Childcare costs are over 1000 dollars a month here.

Adoption is fine and dandy, but what of the child later deciding it's his/her "right" to know the birth mother? If you've closed the door on that chapter of your life, it isn't easy to have it wrenched open by a person you harbor guilt over already, to have more piled on, or a forced relationship when you never wanted one in the first place.

Nobody should be forced into parenthood. It's hard enough for those of us who choose it. I see the resentment my sister-in-law heaps on her children for "ruining" her figure, for not being born female, for demanding attention. Some people are not cut out for parenthood. I love my nephews, but they live wretched lives and are becoming petty criminals allowed to run wild, minor druggies who steal from my father, society's garbage. I have been assaulted, abused, and have finally washed my hands of my brother and his family. They (my nephews) would have been better off never born. They certainly were never wanted.

[svgshadowhunter]

Well, obviously the main problem with my nephews would be lousy parenting right off the bat. Any help given/offered in the early stages was never enough or appreciated, she is a "not my child" parent who refuses to take responsibilty for actions, and blames others for her shortcomings and those of the children. Unless she is angry with them, at which point she makes it clear to my nephews that "they ruined" her life and "should never have been born". They had pretty miserable childhoods, and we did what we could for them until their criminal behavior and disrespect began to affect MY kids adversly.

If you're saddened to read that sentence it breaks my heart to type it, but it's absolutely true. They were never wanted, she wouldn't give them up, and their entire existence is miserable. I can't imagine growing up feeling as they must have, despite our efforts to love them and make them part of our closeness. She just wouldn't allow it. And my brother has no spine.

I'm not saying abortion is a great idea, I am only saying people shouldn't become parents unless they are ready to willingly accept that lifelong responsibility that raising a child becomes. No matter how you slice it, you are never NOT a parent, even after a child is grown and self supporting, there remains some level of dependence on a parent, if only emotionally. My two are 19 and 22 now, and we have evolved into "friends" but I am first and foremost their moral guidepost, their biggest cheerleader, their harshest critic and their interest free bank when needed.

I have read of so many people giving up children only to have them turn up years later, and it isn't always the best "reunion" a parent could wish for. Not that I don't appreciate the difficulty the original decision must have been, giving up a baby to the unknown.

And I agree, prospectyive fathers should have a say in the decision of his baby's future. If he is willing to raise the baby, he should be allowed to have that chance. It isn't his fault he doesn't have a womb of his own.