Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

[Thebottomline]

We can't pay for it! This Country is just about sunk and Obama and his cronies don't even care. What a pitty! This moron has managed to destroy us in under a year!

As opposed to Bush leading us into this huge depression and took us from the greatest surplus in American history to horrible recession. If I remember correctly it was still on a huge downswing as Obama was taking office. The man is trying and that is more than I can say about a man who spent 1/3 of his term on vacation.

That "greatest surplus" was just projected numbers. Technically we did not have a surplus under the Clinton administration. The economy was in a huge downswing by the end of Clintons term as well so ole Willy didn't leave this country in that great of shape. We had a bad recession in 2001 as well even before 9-11 took place and Bush cannot take the blame for that. I remember in the summer of 2001, everyday in the Columbian and the Oregonain newspapers there was frontpage news where some big company was laying off thousands. Worksource here in Vancouver was putting up the frontpage of both the Columbian and the Oregonian to show unemployed people how bad it really is, then 9-11 happened, that buried us and I dont think we ever fully recuperated from that regardless how well the stcok market did in 2004, 2005, 2006, and in 2007.


By the way I dont blame Obama for the shape we are currently in, but I dont believe for one minute all his spending is going to bail us out. he's telling us we have to watch our spending but yet he's out spending our tax dollars we haven't paid yet.

[TheInfiniteStaircase]

I was using an extreme statement to stress my fears and concerns. And I never said I wished it on him, I said why shouldn't I wish it on him? But the over abundance of people responding with "Traitorous" grounds and the such makes me laugh. I don't wish assassination on Obama. I don't wish death on anyone who isn't related to Sebastian Bach. And the fact is, no matter how much someone might hate Obama, if anything ever happened to him, this America's first African American President, this country would have a civil war.

Ugmo, to try and clarify my statement (and thank you for responding calmly and rationally, I appreciate it) - the way I understand part of this healthcare reform bill (and I could be wrong) is that the Government is now going to pretty much dictate what's right for everyone and how doctors can and should treat their patients. So, in the case of my father, since the treatment that he needs is not seen as "textbook" treatment (two medications that are usually a choice for MS patients - one or the other - he gets both which is rarely ever seen) this new plan would mean that most likely his doctor will no longer be able to prescribe him with both medications. 1) Because the "normal" way of treating his disease would be for him to be on one medication not BOTH. 2) He is older than 55. And like I said, the two medication thing has already been an ongoing battle with his insurance company. Should this Bill pass, I'm pretty convinced that he will have no more basis for argument, and his doctor won't be able to do shit about it because from my understanding, the Government will now be regulating everything.

And for those of you piping off about everything else at me, I love my country and God knows I would never want to live anywhere but in America. But if being loyal to my elected government means watching my own father get sick and die, then my government can suck my fuckin dick. And anyone who is self righteous enough to think they wouldn't feel the same way should really get off the internet for a little while and ask someone to show you what the Sun is.

Am I overreacting? Possibly. And if I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit it. I try to see both sides to everything. But so far, I have not seen anything really positive about this Healthcare Bill. Like many many other people have been saying, our Healthcare system DEFINITELY needs some kind of overhaul, but this just sounds like it's going to do more harm than good.

[TheInfiniteStaircase]

You should think about editing that post. I can understand you having strong feelings about this, but the "a" word is never a good idea.

Perhaps it was in bad taste to go that far to express my concern. I didn't mean to get anyone's panties in a bind and now I actually wish I hadn't used that word only because the rest of my post is going almost ignored, but what are you gonna do?

[pooldude]

Perhaps it was in bad taste to go that far to express my concern. I didn't mean to get anyone's panties in a bind and now I actually wish I hadn't used that word only because the rest of my post is going almost ignored, but what are you gonna do?

A wise man once said:

It's better to shut your mouth, & be thought a fool...

...then to open it up, & remove all doubt.

[Ugmo]

Ugmo, to try and clarify my statement (and thank you for responding calmly and rationally, I appreciate it) - the way I understand part of this healthcare reform bill (and I could be wrong) is that the Government is now going to pretty much dictate what's right for everyone and how doctors can and should treat their patients. So, in the case of my father, since the treatment that he needs is not seen as "textbook" treatment (two medications that are usually a choice for MS patients - one or the other - he gets both which is rarely ever seen) this new plan would mean that most likely his doctor will no longer be able to prescribe him with both medications. 1) Because the "normal" way of treating his disease would be for him to be on one medication not BOTH. 2) He is older than 55. And like I said, the two medication thing has already been an ongoing battle with his insurance company. Should this Bill pass, I'm pretty convinced that he will have no more basis for argument, and his doctor won't be able to do shit about it because from my understanding, the Government will now be regulating everything.

See this source for a summary of the House bill that passed and the Senate bill that is still in deliberation:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD9BL9MB80

There is nothing at all in there about the government deciding what kind of treatment people should have. The bill is about making sure as many people as possible are covered by an insurance plan. You didn't say who currently insures your dad. I don't see anything in that summary that would indicate his insurer would even change. Let's say he lost his insurance completely, couldn't afford new insurance and ended up on the government plan: I suppose the government could then dictate what kind of treatment he gets. But under the current system, if he lost his insurance and couldn't afford new insurance, he would be totally screwed because there is no government option!

In fact this bill works in his favor, because if he were to lose his insurance and had to look for a new provider, no insurance company would be able to reject him because of his pre-existing condition. So I'm not sure there is any reason for you to be overly concerned, as it doesn't look like either of the plans on the table would negatively affect your dad's situation.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

It's disgusting how much those countries with national health care spend compared to us. How could we afford to pay what they do?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_e ... current-us
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_e ... ate-of-gdp
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_e ... tal-of-gdp
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_h ... per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_h ... per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_s ... per-person
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_t ... diture-gdp
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_t ... diture-gdp

It's a good thing most of our health care is not on the public dime otherwise we would be spending the same amount of money on health care as France, Germany, Britain or one of those other socialist countries.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_p ... ding-total

[bane]

Would you agree that America has the best doctors in the world? Ever wonder why?

[KneelandBobDylan]

Would you agree that America has the best doctors in the world? Ever wonder why?

Because there is lots of money to be made as a doctor in the U.S.......Why do you think so many doctors from other nations practice here? It sure isn't because they are good samaritans.

[bane]

Would you agree that America has the best doctors in the world? Ever wonder why?

Because there is lots of money to be made as a doctor in the U.S.......Why do you think so many doctors from other nations practice here? It sure isn't because they are good samaritans.

Exactly.

[Ugmo]

Would you agree that America has the best doctors in the world? Ever wonder why?

Of definitely. The best doctors in the U.S. are the best in the world. No one is denying you can get optimum health care in the U.S. if you have a lot of money. Problem is many of the 300 million people who live there don't have a lot of money.

[bane]

Would you agree that America has the best doctors in the world? Ever wonder why?

Of definitely. The best doctors in the U.S. are the best in the world. No one is denying you can get optimum health care in the U.S. if you have a lot of money. Problem is many of the 300 million people who live there don't have a lot of money.

You can get optimum healthcare here without a lot of money Ugmo. I don't have a lot of money, but I have awesome healthcare. That said, I agree that the system needs to be changed, but when you start making comparisons to the rest of the world's healthcare, including cost, part of that equation needs to be the fact that once you make our system the same as theirs you get the same level of care, including the same quality of doctors.

[Ugmo]

You can get optimum healthcare here without a lot of money Ugmo. I don't have a lot of money, but I have awesome healthcare. That said, I agree that the system needs to be changed, but when you start making comparisons to the rest of the world's healthcare, including cost, part of that equation needs to be the fact that once you make our system the same as theirs you get the same level of care, including the same quality of doctors.

Well in that case I have to disagree with your premise. I'm talking about the absolute few best specialists in the U.S. Like when a European athlete tears his ACL, he flies to Vail to have it stitched back together by.... forgotten the guy's name, but he's probably the most famous sports surgeon in the world. Steadman or something. How many people who tear their ACL have access to that guy?

If what you're saying is that U.S. doctors on average are better than European or Japanese doctors then I think you're wrong. They're just better paid.

[bane]

I don't know. There are a lot of everyday people from say, Canada, that come here to see specialists. I live in the cancer center capital of the US. My city has a world renowned medical center. We have a lot of doctors from all over the world here. Not to disparage other country's doctors as I'm sure there are excellent doctors everywhere, I'd just be willing to bet that they're a lot easier to find here. My own brother just had a disc replaced in his neck by a guy that is ranked in the top 3 in his field in the US for example. My brother is not a wealthy guy by any stretch of the imagination. He has bad ass insurance though. Anyway, point being, once you take away the profit incentive, world class doctors might be more likely to stay home. I guess that bodes well for their home countries, not so well for us.

[SmokeyRamone]

I'd like to know how Obama plans to utilize all the fraud and waste in Medicare to help pay for the new, expanded plan, he talks that up a lot, but I haven't heard or read of anything substantial he plans to do, it's funny to me that he's willing to admit that the existing government run health care plans have a lot of waste and fraud, but we should all ignore them that and give them even more control. If this is so important to him, why hasn't he bothered trying to do anything about it yet? Why didn't he try to fight it when he was a Senator?

[bane]

I'd like to know how Obama plans to utilize all the fraud and waste in Medicare to help pay for the new, expanded plan, he talks that up a lot, but I haven't heard or read of anything substantial he plans to do, it's funny to me that he's willing to admit that the existing government run health care plans have a lot of waste and fraud, but we should all ignore them that and give them even more control. If this is so important to him, why hasn't he bothered trying to do anything about it yet? Why didn't he try to fight it when he was a Senator?

Things I'd like to know as well.

[deathcurse]

I don't know. There are a lot of everyday people from say, Canada, that come here to see specialists.

We have almost 10 times the population of Canada.

[Ugmo]

It just occurred to me that I have always confused Smokey Ramone with Huey Ramone. So in other words this guy:



is not the dude who resents like hell being forced to buy health insurance. I always thought it was weird that that guy would be so pissed off about health care reform!

[bane]

I don't know. There are a lot of everyday people from say, Canada, that come here to see specialists.

We have almost 10 times the population of Canada.

True. I guess your point would be that based on population we should have about 10 times the likelihood of finding a good specialist? I think it's a money thing. Generally speaking, really good doctors are like anybody else that is really good at what they do, in that they go where they can get payed the most. There's also something to be said for being able to practice their profession in the best possible facilities with the best possible tools etc.

[NickasInSaltLick]

If given the choice between no access at all and access to only the 50th best doctor in a given field, I'll take my chances with the 50th best doctor. I'm pretty sure he still knows his shit.

[bane]

If given the choice between no access at all and access to only the 50th best doctor in a given field, I'll take my chances with the 50th best doctor. I'm pretty sure he still knows his shit.

Sure, no argument from me on that. I've said all along that our system needs fixing but, it's a bit of a stretch to ask people that do have access to really good doctors to be willing to give that up as a civic or charitable duty. My entire premise here is based on MoMP's comparison of our system to the socialized systems in other countries. I'm well aware that we aren't really in any danger of adopting one of those types of systems any time soon, so this is a purely semantic argument.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

If given the choice between no access at all and access to only the 50th best doctor in a given field, I'll take my chances with the 50th best doctor. I'm pretty sure he still knows his shit.

Sure, no argument from me on that. I've said all along that our system needs fixing but, it's a bit of a stretch to ask people that do have access to really good doctors to be willing to give that up as a civic or charitable duty. My entire premise here is based on MoMP's comparison of our system to the socialized systems in other countries. I'm well aware that we aren't really in any danger of adopting one of those types of systems any time soon, so this is a purely semantic argument.

Those doctors will not drop dead overnight and the people paying a premium to see them will travel to Vail, London or Calcutta or wherever else they may end up. They don't come here because we have a greater right to those services, they're following the money. The idea that our wish and desire for quality medical care are a factor or that it is a sacrifice for us to choose is ludicrous.

[bane]

If given the choice between no access at all and access to only the 50th best doctor in a given field, I'll take my chances with the 50th best doctor. I'm pretty sure he still knows his shit.

Sure, no argument from me on that. I've said all along that our system needs fixing but, it's a bit of a stretch to ask people that do have access to really good doctors to be willing to give that up as a civic or charitable duty. My entire premise here is based on MoMP's comparison of our system to the socialized systems in other countries. I'm well aware that we aren't really in any danger of adopting one of those types of systems any time soon, so this is a purely semantic argument.

Those doctors will not drop dead overnight and the people paying a premium to see them will travel to Vail, London or Calcutta or wherever else they may end up. They don't come here because we have a greater right to those services, they're following the money. The idea that our wish and desire for quality medical care are a factor or that it is a sacrifice for us to choose is ludicrous.

Dude, I don't have to travel to Vail or Calcutta. I can drive to the medical center in my own home town and see one of the best heart surgeons in the world if I need to, and my insurance will pay for it. What about this are you not getting? Yes those doctors will still be around but if we were to move over to a UK style system, the next generation or so of them won't be because the money won't be there. I think it is a valid point of contention when debating the pros and cons of a system like the one you've been talking about. In a nutshell, we can have 100% universal and affordable coverage, but it comes at a price. I think that price is something to consider. What's ludicrous about that?

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

Sure, no argument from me on that. I've said all along that our system needs fixing but, it's a bit of a stretch to ask people that do have access to really good doctors to be willing to give that up as a civic or charitable duty. My entire premise here is based on MoMP's comparison of our system to the socialized systems in other countries. I'm well aware that we aren't really in any danger of adopting one of those types of systems any time soon, so this is a purely semantic argument.

Those doctors will not drop dead overnight and the people paying a premium to see them will travel to Vail, London or Calcutta or wherever else they may end up. They don't come here because we have a greater right to those services, they're following the money. The idea that our wish and desire for quality medical care are a factor or that it is a sacrifice for us to choose is ludicrous.

Dude, I don't have to travel to Vail or Calcutta. I can drive to the medical center in my own home town and see one of the best heart surgeons in the world if I need to, and my insurance will pay for it. What about this are you not getting?

This, it seems. You imply that a national health care plan will result in people potentially sacrificing access to 'really good doctors' whose services they would be otherwise entitled. Unless that doctor has some sort of Northern Exposure deal with you, his services are not anything you or anyone else have the option of 'giving up' for civic or charitable duty reasons. If another hospital makes him a better offer, he'll pack his bags regardless of the health care system choice we make.

[bane]

Sure they can leave, that's the chance you take in the free market, but the odds are still dramatically better of finding a really good doctor in an area that you have access to when the world's best doctors are immigrating to your country than they would be if those doctors weren't. We also have some of the finest facilities in the world. Great doctors want to work with the best tools available, so, there you go. It's not that complicated.
In a nationalized plan I am almost positive that there would be a far larger demand for Medical Assistants (you know, those guys you see when you go to the clinic on a Saturday because you don't want to wait until Monday to make an appointment with your real doctor?) Those guys can handle checking your vitals, taking care of treating the basics etc., but they're not as likely to catch the diagnosis when you go in for what you think is a touch of bronchitis and it turns out to be early lung cancer. Those are the type of sacrifices that you are proposing.

[deathcurse]

Those guys can handle checking your vitals, taking care of treating the basics etc., but they're not as likely to catch the diagnosis when you go in for what you think is a touch of bronchitis and it turns out to be early lung cancer. Those are the type of sacrifices that you are proposing.

They're not allowed to make diagnoses now so why would they under a universal system? What you're saying is that hospitals and clinics will be so swamped that serious medical decisions will be left in the hands of underqualified nurses.

Does Canada or England have huge numbers of cancer deaths due to misdiagnosis? I've honestly never heard this before.

[deathcurse]

Also, I'm pretty sure bronchitis and lung cancer have different symptoms but I'm not a medical doctor.

[bane]

Those guys can handle checking your vitals, taking care of treating the basics etc., but they're not as likely to catch the diagnosis when you go in for what you think is a touch of bronchitis and it turns out to be early lung cancer. Those are the type of sacrifices that you are proposing.

They're not allowed to make diagnoses now so why would they under a universal system? What you're saying is that hospitals and clinics will be so swamped that serious medical decisions will be left in the hands of underqualified nurses.

Does Canada or England have huge numbers of cancer deaths due to misdiagnosis? I've honestly never heard this before.

OK, granted, extreme case, I'm not a doctor either, I was trying to make a point, and I'll admit to a shitty analogy. My point was, I have been to clinics plenty of times (when I was uninsured and that's all I could get) where I saw a MA instead of an MD. The MA would check me out, walk out of the room, come back in with a diagnosis and hand me a script for whatever they said I needed. I'm guessing that they must be conferring with an MD in the other room or something because somebody had to sign that script, but I can tell you that most of the time I never saw a doctor, hell, I don't think I ever saw the same guy twice. Since I was uninsured at the time, as well as being young and reasonably healthy, it was fine, but I am insured now and I'm not crazy about going back to that if I don't have to. My doc is thourough as fuck and knows me pretty well. I've been going to the same guy for over a decade. I went in today for a breathing issue (that's why I made that analogy, it was fresh in my mind) and my doc did a bunch of tests and wrote me a script for a chest xray. In the past, the guy would have said "Bronchitus, here's a script for an antibiotic, call me back if you don't feel better in a week".

[deathcurse]

Okay, so the doctor you saw when you were uninsured just handed you a prescription and sent you on your way. Now that you have insurance, your doctor is more thorough, ordering all kinds of tests just to make sure cancer is not currently eating away at you.

Wouldn't that be an argument FOR universal health care?

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

Sure they can leave, that's the chance you take in the free market, but the odds are still dramatically better of finding a really good doctor in an area that you have access to when the world's best doctors are immigrating to your country than they would be if those doctors weren't. We also have some of the finest facilities in the world. Great doctors want to work with the best tools available, so, there you go. It's not that complicated.
In a nationalized plan I am almost positive that there would be a far larger demand for Medical Assistants (you know, those guys you see when you go to the clinic on a Saturday because you don't want to wait until Monday to make an appointment with your real doctor?) Those guys can handle checking your vitals, taking care of treating the basics etc., but they're not as likely to catch the diagnosis when you go in for what you think is a touch of bronchitis and it turns out to be early lung cancer. Those are the type of sacrifices that you are proposing.

Will 'the finest facilities in the world' be bulldozed and 'the best tools' scrapped under a national health care plan? To what new and better place without national health care plans will these doctors go? Bangladesh? Somalia? What facts do you have to back up your fears?

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

Okay, so the doctor you saw when you were uninsured just handed you a prescription and sent you on your way. Now that you have insurance, your doctor is more thorough, ordering all kinds of tests just to make sure cancer is not currently eating away at you.

Wouldn't that be an argument FOR universal health care?