Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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SmokeyRamone wrote:if the government wanted to step in and start regulating the pharmaceutical industry, they could. They did it with big tobacco, both the federal and most state governments have their hands all over alcohol and how it's distributed, and he sure as hell has no problem dictating how much failing corporations who have been bailed out can pay their CEOs, the fact that he's meeting with them behind closed doors raises, in my mind, a conflict of interest, I don't mean for this to sound racist, but I don't know which master he's serving, the citizens, or the big corporations, with the billions he's doled out in bailout money, and the fact that he wants to force everyone to buy insurance from insurance companies, while maligning them for being greedy, and letting the pharmaceutical industry have a say in shaping public policy, I'm starting to think his loyalties are with the corporations
Dictating terms to the tobacco companies is a slam dunk, as the overwhelming majority of Americans hates them. Same thing with Wall Street - absolutely no public relations dilemma in publicly calling out Wall Street. Health care is a completely different matter, because when people (who already have health care) are worried that their health might be at stake if anything changes, it is easy to get them riled up. Did you see how easy it was for the Republicans to get people at town hall meetings to make complete fools of themselves all summer? That's what happens when a huge percentage of the population is poorly educated: it is incredibly easy to manipulate them.

Once again, if the pharmaceutical industry is not involved in any potential legislation, it will not get passed, period. Has nothing to do with where his loyalties lie, it has to do with getting things done.
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by EvilMadman »

Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?
With MASSIVE new taxes on EVERYBODY, of course. :lol:
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by MasterOfMeatPuppets »

EvilMadman wrote:
Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?
With MASSIVE new taxes on EVERYBODY, of course. :lol:
The UK, France, Germany and the rest of Europe do it for far less than we currently pay. What is it about our government that is so inferior to theirs that we can't match their performance? Maybe it's time to shitcan the Constitution and go to a parliamentary system since it's obviously more efficient and competent than our own.
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by SmokeyRamone »

I doubt those other countries paid out more than $50 billion in questionable medical claims, apparently their governments have far less fraud, corruption and waste
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by MasterOfMeatPuppets »

SmokeyRamone wrote:I doubt those other countries paid out more than $50 billion in questionable medical claims, apparently their governments have far less fraud, corruption and waste
Then we need their kind of government, don't we? Why should we settle for a shitty government model?

Also, private insurers have just as shitty a record on fraud, corruption and waste.
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/0 ... sd0804.htm
Health care fraud accounts for as much as 10% of overall health spending and is occurring just as frequently among private insurance plans as public programs, according to a recent report.

The June study out of the George Washington University Medical Center in Washington, D.C., emerges as the Obama administration is becoming more vocal about cracking down on health care fraud as a priority in reforming the health care system.

The report's authors called the issue "a systemic problem affecting public and private insurers alike, in the individual market, the employer-sponsored group market and public programs." Researchers cited fraudulent billing, kickbacks, upcoding and bundling services among the most common examples of fraud. They estimated that 80% of health care fraud is committed by health care entities, 10% by consumers, and the balance by others, including private insurers and their employees.

While the public is more aware of Medicare and Medicaid fraud because the government is required to report it to taxpayers, "perhaps the most striking examples of fraud are those that involve the private insurance industry itself," according to the study.

Researchers pointed to a January settlement by UnitedHealth Group, totaling $450 million, over allegations that the insurance firm manipulated out-of-network prices for physician services, resulting in an estimated 10% to 28% increase in costs. The Litigation Center of the American Medical Association and State Medical Societies, along with other physician organizations, had sued United, which denied any wrongdoing.

Researchers also cited several multimillion-dollar settlements by pharmaceutical companies and large hospital systems for alleged false billing of Medicare and Medicaid.

Between 3% and 10% of the nearly $2.3 trillion spent on health care in 2007 was lost to health care fraud -- a figure that, if prevented, "would have been enough to cover the uninsured," the report said. "As the national health reform legislation takes shape, keeping an attentive eye on anti-fraud provisions will be a critical element of reform."
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by SmokeyRamone »

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:
SmokeyRamone wrote:I doubt those other countries paid out more than $50 billion in questionable medical claims, apparently their governments have far less fraud, corruption and waste
Then we need their kind of government, don't we? Why should we settle for a shitty government model?
it seems like we already have, for all the talk of waste and fraud, most people seem to be okay with it and think giving the government even more control over our lives and more money is a good idea
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by MasterOfMeatPuppets »

SmokeyRamone wrote:
MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:
SmokeyRamone wrote:I doubt those other countries paid out more than $50 billion in questionable medical claims, apparently their governments have far less fraud, corruption and waste
Then we need their kind of government, don't we? Why should we settle for a shitty government model?
it seems like we already have, for all the talk of waste and fraud, most people seem to be okay with it and think giving the government even more control over our lives and more money is a good idea
Read this: http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/0 ... sd0804.htm
(look in my previous post and read the copy and paste to save you time)
Are you still concerned about all that waste and fraud? Considering the ratio of public to private health care spending, that $50 billion is a drop in the private insurance bucket.
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by SmokeyRamone »

so two wrongs make a right? Sorry, but I don't see how $50 billion in wasted taxpayer money is ever a drop in the bucket. The insurance companies are evil, sure, we get it, Obama and his people have been shoving that fact down our throat for months now, but is the solution really to force all of us by law to do business with them, while the government raises taxes? I don't think it is, especially without any kind of cost controls in place.
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by MasterOfMeatPuppets »

SmokeyRamone wrote:so two wrongs make a right? Sorry, but I don't see how $50 billion in wasted taxpayer money is ever a drop in the bucket. The insurance companies are evil, sure, we get it, Obama and his people have been shoving that fact down our throat for months now, but is the solution really to force all of us by law to do business with them, while the government raises taxes? I don't think it is, especially without any kind of cost controls in place.
No, your pissing and whining about public waste rings hollow when the private sector you present as an alternative fares no better. You don't support the status quo but don't want to change anything. As far as I'm concerned, as long as you've got nothing to bring to the table you just need to shut the fuck up. If you don't want to be part of the solution, you're just part of the problem. The private insurance industry has had decades to deal with the problem but they are unable or, more likely, unwilling. I've been waiting for months for the Republicans to step up with their solution and can only conclude that it is the same as the insurance industry's: DO NOTHING. There is no true debate when your only answer is to sit on your ass and fiddle while Rome burns.
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by SmokeyRamone »

it's funny how quick your to label me either a republican or a conservative because I think Obama's plan is the wrong one for this country, I don't see issues like this as partisan, I see them as government going in the wrong direction, I was against the Patriot Act, and the Iraq war, just like I'm against more government interference in my life, especially considering how fiscally irresponsible as the US government is

based on your last post, you seem to think any effort the government makes to reform health care, whether it works or not in the long run is good, sorry, but when it comes to billions upon billions of dollars, and the rights of the individual, I think they should do a little better than just trial and error

you also say that I don't want to see things change, bullshit, I just don't want to see this plan implemented, I've said more than once that if they really want the support of everyone, the government should start with the fraud and waste, both in the private and public sector and prove that they're actually competent enough to do something about it, before taking over more control

$50 billion is a hell of a lot more than a drop in the bucket, and I'm sure there's more in the private sector as you point out, and I don't see how giving both more money for them to waste, and more control over lives can be a good thing, they should be forced to get their shit together before we're forced by law to do give them more money
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091118/ap_ ... ment_waste

By HOPE YEN, Associated Press Writer Hope Yen, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON – More than $98 billion in taxpayer dollars spent by government agencies was wasted, much of it on questionable claims for tax credits and Medicare benefits, representing an increase of $26 billion from the previous year.

In all, about 5 percent of spending in federal programs in fiscal year 2009 was improper, according to new details of a government financial report that were released Tuesday. Saying the overall error rate was similar in 2008, officials attributed the $26 billion jump to some changes in how to define improper spending as well as an increase in overall spending due to the recession.

President Barack Obama is expected to sign an executive order within the next week aimed at cracking down on government waste and fraud, particularly in Medicare and other benefit programs. In the 2009 report, the government officially reported questionable Medicare payments of roughly $36 billion, but that amount will be revised upward to about $48 billion next year as the Health and Human Services Department fully converts to a new methodology that imposes stricter documentation requirements.

"We need to protect taxpayer dollars," Peter Orszag, director of the Office of Management and Budget, told reporters. "Every dollar that goes to the wrong recipient or in the wrong amount is a dollar not available to help an unemployed worker, or to invest in education or key priorities of the administration."

Under the executive order, every federal agency would have to maintain a Web site that tracks improper payments, error rates and outstanding payments. If an agency doesn't meet targets for reducing error rates for two years in a row, the agency director and responsible official will have to directly report to OMB to explain the delinquency and new actions they will take.

The Obama administration will also seek to impose penalties on government contractors that receive improper payments so they have incentives to return the money, Orszag said.

Among the reported waste:

_Agriculture: $4.3 billion in improper payments, or 5.9 percent of total department spending. Much of it was in the food stamp, federal crop insurance and school meals programs.

_Defense: $849 million, or 0.5 percent.

_Education: $599 million, or 2.1 percent.

_Health and Human Services: $55.1 billion, or 9.4 percent. That included improper payment rates of 7.8 percent and 15.4 percent in the Medicare fee for service and Advantage programs, respectively.

_Homeland Security: $644.5 million, or 3.7 percent. Much of it was in the Homeland Security grant program as well as Disaster Relief Fund Vendor Payments.

_Housing and Urban Development: $1 billion, or 3.5 percent. All of it was attributed to public housing and rental assistance.

_Labor: $12.3 billion, or 9.9 percent. Almost all of the improper payments were in the unemployment insurance program.

_Treasury: $12.3 billion, or 25.5 percent. All of it was attributed to improper payments in the earned income tax credit.

_Transportation: $1.5 billion, or 3 percent. Much of it was in the Federal Highway Administration planning and construction program.

_Veterans Affairs: $1.2 billion, or 2.7 percent. That included improper payments in the pension and other compensation programs.

_Social Security Administration: $8.0 billion, or 1.2 percent.

Sen. Tom Carper, D-Del., who chairs a Senate panel on federal financial management, said he worried that the latest numbers "may still be just the tip of the iceberg" since they don't include estimates for several programs such as the Medicare prescription drug plan.

"It goes without saying that these results would be completely unacceptable in the private sector, as they should be in government, especially at a time of record deficits," Carper said.
___________________________

just another "drop in the bucket?" Is it unreasonable to think the government may not be competent enough to reform health care and will make the problem worse? Is it too much to ask them to prove that they can be competent and fiscally responsible before giving them more power, more money and more control over our lives?
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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EvilMadman wrote:
Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?
With MASSIVE new taxes on EVERYBODY, of course. :lol:
Getting sick is expensive.
Who's SUPPOSED to pay for our health then, if not us?
The only time we can really appreciate the importance is when we or someone we love gets seriously ill or injured.
The way the trend is going, private insurance will only want to cover you if you're perfectly healthy and live your life in a responsible way (managing your health as directed - high blood pressure, diabetes, etc).
Which will require private insurance companies to turn into Big Brother, scrutinizing every claim you make.
The question we have to ask ourselves is who do we trust more? Who's the bigger wolf?
I can't answer that, myself....I don't have a solution and apparently neither does our government. It's a hard question.

I work in healthcare and see the massive mismanagement everyday:
I see illegal immigrants come in to the ER as Traumas, end up totally debilitated and living at the hospital for YEARS on OUR dime - blame EMTALA laws.
I watch the pharmaceutical companies charge OUTLANDISH cost ($25/dose) for drugs that are widely used, but have been on the market for EONS - blame Capitalist supply and demand.
I see doctors charging patient's private health insurance $1,300 to be on a ventilator for 10 minutes because they didn't want to waste 10 extra minutes to wake the patient up in OR - blame personal responsibility.

Every arm of the healthcare octopus is mismanaged at huge costs.
It will only continue to get more complicated and expensive as America's Babyboomers (a huge number of our population) ages and becomes more ill.
We have to change SOMETHING.
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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HippiChik wrote:
EvilMadman wrote:
Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?
With MASSIVE new taxes on EVERYBODY, of course. :lol:
Getting sick is expensive.
Who's SUPPOSED to pay for our health then, if not us?
The only time we can really appreciate the importance is when we or someone we love gets seriously ill or injured.
The way the trend is going, private insurance will only want to cover you if you're perfectly healthy and live your life in a responsible way (managing your health as directed - high blood pressure, diabetes, etc).
Which will require private insurance companies to turn into Big Brother, scrutinizing every claim you make.
The question we have to ask ourselves is who do we trust more? Who's the bigger wolf?
I can't answer that, myself....I don't have a solution and apparently neither does our government. It's a hard question.

I work in healthcare and see the massive mismanagement everyday:
I see illegal immigrants come in to the ER as Traumas, end up totally debilitated and living at the hospital for YEARS on OUR dime - blame EMTALA laws.
I watch the pharmaceutical companies charge OUTLANDISH cost ($25/dose) for drugs that are widely used, but have been on the market for EONS - blame Capitalist supply and demand.
I see doctors charging patient's private health insurance $1,300 to be on a ventilator for 10 minutes because they didn't want to waste 10 extra minutes to wake the patient up in OR - blame personal responsibility.

Every arm of the healthcare octopus is mismanaged at huge costs.
It will only continue to get more complicated and expensive as America's Babyboomers (a huge number of our population) ages and becomes more ill.
We have to change SOMETHING.


That's the thing, as has been brought up now. It seems to be a choice between either the democrat health care plan, or the republican status quo, since they offer nothing of their own. Is the status quo fine? Certainly not. Is the democrat health care plan the solution? I certainly don't think so. The answer would be a program somewhere in between the two.

Funny how this has made the republicans fire up the "we have the best health care in the world" rhetoric machine, when we obviously don't. It is sad indeed that they somehow equate patriotism with turning a blind eye and thinking you are the best at everything, despite ample evidence to the contrary. Instead of "America - love it or leave!" we should have the attitude of "America - we can make it even better."
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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^ Preach! ^
Let's make Positivity the new Patriotism!

The only way to reign in the waste and spending is to impose sanctions, but how do you do that in a Capitalist society without an across the board plan?
How do you cap spending on one end without sacrificing the all-important profit margin of the other?
Somehow, the NFL has figured this out but Washington hasn't?? :lol:

Call it "Socialized Medicine" all you want, but it's what both parties should be asking for and what America needs.
I pray they get it right.
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091208/ap_ ... e_overhaul

By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent David Espo, Ap Special Correspondent – Mon Dec 7, 9:44 pm ET

WASHINGTON – With time growing short, Senate Democratic liberals are seeking expansion of two large federal programs, Medicare and Medicaid, as part of a compromise that drops a government insurance option from health care legislation sought by President Barack Obama, several lawmakers said Monday.

Under the potential trade-off with party moderates, near-retirees beginning at age 55 or 60 who lack affordable insurance would be permitted to purchase coverage under Medicare, which generally provides medical care beginning at 65. Medicaid, the federal-state health care program for the poor, would be open to all comers up to 150 percent of poverty, or slightly over $33,000 for a family of four.

The compromise under discussion also envisions private insurance companies selling national, non-profit plans, to be overseen by a federal agency, an alternative to a longstanding call by liberals for the government to sell insurance as a means of forcing competition on the industry.

"It's one of those kind of things in the middle that doesn't make everybody very happy but that's our compromise," Sen. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, said after talks ended for the day. "It's something I'm going to probably have to live with."

Harkin also said Majority Leader Harry Reid had imposed a deadline of Tuesday on the talks as he tries to complete work on the sweeping legislation in the next few weeks.

While Harkin and others spoke with optimism, there were few details available. It was not immediately clear, for example, what the legislation would provide if no insurance company agreed to sell a nationwide non-profit plan.

Senators and aides said the changes have been discussed extensively in recent days as a small group of moderate and liberal Democrats search for a middle ground to assure passage of the bill atop Obama's domestic agenda.

Additionally, the president met privately at the White House over the weekend with Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine, who supported a Democratic-drafted bill in the Senate Finance Commitee earlier this year but has spoken out against the legislation pending on the floor. Senate Democrats also have been in contact with Snowe in recent days.

Given the complexities of the two programs and the White House's goal of passing legislation by year's end, it wasn't clear whether the negotiations would ultimately bear fruit, or merely prove to be a last stab by liberals at salvaging some concessions in a months long debate over a so-called public option.

As the search for compromise intensifies, several Democrats also said a plan by Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., was receiving new interest as a means of injecting additional competition into the insurance system. It gives states an option to negotiate with private industry to provide group less expensive coverage for lower income residents. Currently, the bill allows that for any state's residents up to twice the federal poverty level, about $44,000 for a family of four, but that could be raised if negotiators decide they want to do so.

"There's push and pull," said Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., who has been involved in the discussions. "We have to find the right balance that satisfies the party as to how much government involvement there should be and how much private involvement."

Democrats need 60 votes to pass their bill over Republican objections, and while liberals far outnumber moderates inside the party, they appear at least four votes short of the number needed. That gives moderates such as Sens. Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas, Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Joe Lieberman, an independent from Connecticut, key leverage as the White House and Reid try to complete work on the bill.

At its core, the legislation is designed to expand coverage to more than 30 million who lack it, while curbing controversial insurance industry practices and generally restraining the growth of medical spending.

Several party officials said the negotiations involving the two wings of the Democratic caucus had given Sen. Mark Pryor, D-Ark., a newly prominent role on the health care legislation, and he has held several meetings in recent days designed to facilitate a compromise. Pryor represents his state in the Senate with Lincoln, who faces a difficult re-election challenge in 2010.

The closed-door talks have proceeded while Republicans on the Senate floor have mounted a series of politically charged challenges to the health care bill. Whatever the long-term political impact, they so far they have failed to win any major changes.

The latest such maneuver came when the Senate rejected an attempt by Sen. Judd Gregg, R-N.H., to prevent Medicare from "being raided" to pay for health care. The vote was 43-56. The bill calls for cuts totaling $460 billion over a decade from projected Medicare spending, much of which would be used to provide subsidies to help lower and middle-income Americans purchase health care.

Another contentious issue is slated for a vote Tuesday, when conservatives from both parties try to stiffen abortion restrictions in the legislation.

Both on and off the Senate floor, the health care debate has become intensely political.

Michael Steele, chairman of the Republican Party, demanded an apology from Reid during the day after the majority leader criticized critics favoring a slower, more incremental approach to health care.

"You think you've heard these same excuses before? You're right. In this country there were those who dug in their heels and said, 'Slow down, it's too early. Let's wait. Things aren't bad enough.' — about slavery," Reid said.

Steele said if Reid won't apologize, "Democrats must immediately reconsider his fitness to lead them."

Jim Manley, a spokesman for Reid, said in response, "Today's feigned outrage is nothing but a ploy to distract from the fact they (Republicans) have no plan to lower the cost of health care, stop insurance company abuses or protect Medicare.

_________________


just more typical big government thinking, they acknowledge that billions of dollars get wasted every year with medicare and medicaid, so their solution is to expand both programs

yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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enter your username wrote:
SmokeyRamone wrote: just more typical big government thinking, they acknowledge that billions of dollars get wasted every year with medicare and medicaid, so their solution is to expand both programs

yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense
They're not expanding health care to police waste. They're expanding health care to provide health care to people who don't have it. They are policing waste by limiting coverage. Don't comment on article you haven't read.

while curbing controversial insurance industry practices and generally restraining the growth of medical spending
obviously they're not expanding health care to police waste, when it comes to curbing fraud and waste, they've failed miserably, I don't care what their reasoning is, billions are lost every year, now they want to raise taxes and expand those programs, sorry, but I don't have enough faith in the government to do it efficiently.
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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for the people who think this plan is a good idea, are there other areas where you think the government knows best and should be able to dictate how live our lives and spend oru money? Are there other private companies the government should meet with privately to help shape policy that will require us to buy their goods or services? How much of our budgets should the government control and how much should we be able to control?

Obviously, Obama believes he knows what's best for us better than we do, so where else can our esteemed leader and his fellow democrats stick their noses into our private lives to help us lowly masses improve ourselves?
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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SmokeyRamone wrote:for the people who think this plan is a good idea, are there other areas where you think the government knows best and should be able to dictate how live our lives and spend oru money? Are there other private companies the government should meet with privately to help shape policy that will require us to buy their goods or services? How much of our budgets should the government control and how much should we be able to control?

Obviously, Obama believes he knows what's best for us better than we do, so where else can our esteemed leader and his fellow democrats stick their noses into our private lives to help us lowly masses improve ourselves?


Sweet jesus, what a slippery slope you just got on top of. Talk to me when something like this actually happens. There is no way the dems will get their shit together enough to pass anything resembling the current version of the health care bill; it will end up being something much more watered down. But hey, go stock up on guns and ammo because any day now Obama is gonna take them away! It's coming!
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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yeah, it's a slippery slope, I'll grant you that, but if a mandate is included in any version of the bill that will eventually get passed, I think it could open a dangerous door, but that wasn't really the point of my post, yes it was sarcastic and over the top, but I honestly wonder if supporters of what the dems are pushing think a similar plan would work well in other areas where government and business intersect
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

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SmokeyRamone wrote:for the people who think this plan is a good idea, are there other areas where you think the government knows best and should be able to dictate how live our lives and spend oru money? Are there other private companies the government should meet with privately to help shape policy that will require us to buy their goods or services? How much of our budgets should the government control and how much should we be able to control?

Obviously, Obama believes he knows what's best for us better than we do, so where else can our esteemed leader and his fellow democrats stick their noses into our private lives to help us lowly masses improve ourselves?
Thing is, healthcare shouldn't be a privilege (unlike other goods and services)... at least that's what we believe around these parts... and at the moment, it seems that it is treated as such in your country. All your government is trying to do is make healthcare accessible to all. Why is that so scary?!
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by SmokeyRamone »

nikkiq wrote:
SmokeyRamone wrote:for the people who think this plan is a good idea, are there other areas where you think the government knows best and should be able to dictate how live our lives and spend oru money? Are there other private companies the government should meet with privately to help shape policy that will require us to buy their goods or services? How much of our budgets should the government control and how much should we be able to control?

Obviously, Obama believes he knows what's best for us better than we do, so where else can our esteemed leader and his fellow democrats stick their noses into our private lives to help us lowly masses improve ourselves?
Thing is, healthcare shouldn't be a privilege (unlike other goods and services)... at least that's what we believe around these parts... and at the moment, it seems that it is treated as such in your country. All your government is trying to do is make healthcare accessible to all. Why is that so scary?!
that's not what I consider scary, it's this particular plan where the government will force everyone by law to buy insurance, decide who does and doesn't get assistance, and enact a fine if they don't, and also expanding programs that they admit lose billions of dollars in waste and fraud every year

it's not health care reform that scares me, it's this particular plan
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by Crazy Levi »

nikkiq wrote:
SmokeyRamone wrote:for the people who think this plan is a good idea, are there other areas where you think the government knows best and should be able to dictate how live our lives and spend oru money? Are there other private companies the government should meet with privately to help shape policy that will require us to buy their goods or services? How much of our budgets should the government control and how much should we be able to control?

Obviously, Obama believes he knows what's best for us better than we do, so where else can our esteemed leader and his fellow democrats stick their noses into our private lives to help us lowly masses improve ourselves?
Thing is, healthcare shouldn't be a privilege (unlike other goods and services)... at least that's what we believe around these parts... and at the moment, it seems that it is treated as such in your country. All your government is trying to do is make healthcare accessible to all. Why is that so scary?!
There is not tiny group of people in the US who are convinced that this is the first step toward our country becoming Nazi Germany. And what's scarier than Nazis?

I'm not kidding. Do you see the kind of stupidity we have to live with in this country?
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by nikkiq »

It boggles my tiny little socialist mind.
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by SmokeyRamone »

Crazy Levi wrote:
nikkiq wrote:
SmokeyRamone wrote:for the people who think this plan is a good idea, are there other areas where you think the government knows best and should be able to dictate how live our lives and spend oru money? Are there other private companies the government should meet with privately to help shape policy that will require us to buy their goods or services? How much of our budgets should the government control and how much should we be able to control?

Obviously, Obama believes he knows what's best for us better than we do, so where else can our esteemed leader and his fellow democrats stick their noses into our private lives to help us lowly masses improve ourselves?
Thing is, healthcare shouldn't be a privilege (unlike other goods and services)... at least that's what we believe around these parts... and at the moment, it seems that it is treated as such in your country. All your government is trying to do is make healthcare accessible to all. Why is that so scary?!
There is not tiny group of people in the US who are convinced that this is the first step toward our country becoming Nazi Germany. And what's scarier than Nazis?

I'm not kidding. Do you see the kind of stupidity we have to live with in this country?
so being against government fraud and waste, excessive taxation, and believing freedom of choice still means something is stupid?

if the government were more fiscally responsible and competent, maybe the country would be less resistant to the kind of change Obama is pushing, but in my opinion, it's stupid to put faith in a government that wants to expand medicare and medicaid, yet paid out $50 billion last year in questionable claims? Does everyone consider that a smart decision? No, does that make them stupid?
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by pooldude »

How 'bout we compromise with SmokeyRamone?

If he will sign a binding directive that authorizes any hospital to shoot him up with a cyanide cocktail...

...the very 1st time he ever requires urgent emergency care, & doesn't have the dough to cover it, on the spot...

...we'll go along with his insistence that he has the right to refuse to carry health insurance, & no government can make him.

I mean, fair is fair. :lol:
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by SmokeyRamone »

I have insurance, thanks

if people are comfortable with a fiscally irresponsible government dictating how we spend or post tax income, I ask again, what else should they be mandating, this heath care bill is about more than just government intrusion into our personal lives, it's about them expanding programs that are already hemorrhaging money, and raising taxes to do it, it's also about the government using taxes as a punishment for people who, for whatever reason, don't purchase insurance, despite Obama's promise not to raise taxes on the middle class, sorry, but I see that as the government overstepping it's bounds, not to mention taxation without representation

it's not health care reform I'm against, it's the current reform Obama is trying to push
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by pooldude »

SmokeyRamone wrote:it's not health care reform I'm against, it's the current reform Obama is trying to push
Fair enough.

So tell me...which previous major health care reform package did you support...

...the one pushed so hard by GW Bush & Mr Cheney, or the one proposed by Newt Gingrich, or the one by HW Bush, or the one introduced by Bob Dole, or that brand new super comprehensive all inclusive detailed plan from the Alaskan Rogue?
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by SmokeyRamone »

pooldude wrote:
SmokeyRamone wrote:it's not health care reform I'm against, it's the current reform Obama is trying to push
Fair enough.

So tell me...which previous major health care reform package did you support...

...the one pushed so hard by GW Bush & Mr Cheney, or the one proposed by Newt Gingrich, or the one by HW Bush, or the one introduced by Bob Dole, or that brand new super comprehensive all inclusive detailed plan from the Alaskan Rogue?
just because Obama is the first president since Clinton to come up with a plan for reform doesn't mean it's viable in my opinion, I think he's rushing it, and mock me all you want for wanting to preserve some freedom of choice in a free society, but being told how to spend the money I make does not sit well with me, no matter what they're telling me to spend my money on, I think expanding two programs that are already hemorrhaging money is wrong, the dems should prove first that they can reign in the fraud and waste in medicare and medicaid before they decide to expand those programs, I also haven't heard anything about cost control, if we're going to be forced by law to purchase insurance from insurance companies, there should be some controls in place to make sure they can't start jacking their rates up, and maybe I've missed something, but I haven't heard that brought up at all. I also don't think Obama looked at other types of reform, a lot of people think a single payer option is a good one, but he's pretty much dismissed it from day one

the bottom line is that I think they're trying to do to much too fast, and based on all the fraud and waste that already exists, they're not up to the task yet
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by pooldude »

SmokeyRamone wrote:the bottom line is that I think they're trying to do to much too fast, and based on all the fraud and waste that already exists, they're not up to the task yet
The fact is, if we're not in favor of change, we're supporting the status quo.

The same people who oppose Mr Obama's health care reform now, are the same people who opposed the Clinton administration's attempt at health care reform back in the '90s.

But the Republican administrations had nothing to offer before, during, or after...other than the status quo...leave it as it is, because they say "America has the best health care system in the world".

That's the Republican mantra...back then, & now.

Respectfully...I disagree with them, & I support & applaud Mr Obama for being brave enough to try to improve the current system, to make it fairer, & more inclusive.

So I won't try to dissuade you from your opinion Smokey. But sooner or later, change is gonna come.
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Re: Health care Bill- ? How do we pay for this?

Post by SmokeyRamone »

saying I support the status quo because I don't like Obama's plan is like me saying you support fraud and waste because you do, sure Obama's trying to make a change, I just don't see it as a positive one, I think he should go back to the drawing board and come up with something better, this isn't a partisan issue to me, it's not about dems or repubs, it's about government, it's about how they allowed billions upon billions of dollars to be lost to fraud and waste over the years, and how I think they should be trying to clean that up before taking on even more

I'm not going to try and change your opinion either Pooldude because you make some valid points, but I will say that not all change is good change, and I fear the change Obama's proposing, too much waste, to much government control and too many lies for my taste
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