Metal Sludge Gossip Board

Can someone please tell me how we pay for Health care for everyone?

1. I keep hearing the government is going to cut out all the waste in the system to save money.

Then why does the military by a hammer for $1000 and at Home Depot is is $25.
Why does the post office pay $500 for a tire and you can get one at Walmart for $125.00

If health care works-then great I am wrong. If it doesn't - how do we recover.

My dad is a vet- he goes to the VA center in Minnesota and he waits all day to see a doctor. He has been given the wrong blood pressure medicine twice. He visited last week and they didn't even have him in the computer. He has been going their for 5 years.

Why do people have faith in the government running the health care system I don't get it. Please help me understand why anyone would back this.

adam wrote:Can someone please tell me how we pay for Health care for everyone?

1. I keep hearing the government is going to cut out all the waste in the system to save money.

Then why does the military by a hammer for $1000 and at Home Depot is is $25.
Why does the post office pay $500 for a tire and you can get one at Walmart for $125.00

If health care works-then great I am wrong. If it doesn't - how do we recover.

My dad is a vet- he goes to the VA center in Minnesota and he waits all day to see a doctor. He has been given the wrong blood pressure medicine twice. He visited last week and they didn't even have him in the computer. He has been going their for 5 years.

Why do people have faith in the government running the health care system I don't get it. Please help me understand why anyone would back this.

First you're crying about your imaginary kids and the H1N1 shots, now a poor veteran father?
Shut the fuck up with your attempt at political watchdogging already asshamster.

adam wrote:Can someone please tell me how we pay for Health care for everyone?

1. I keep hearing the government is going to cut out all the waste in the system to save money.

Then why does the military by a hammer for $1000 and at Home Depot is is $25.
Why does the post office pay $500 for a tire and you can get one at Walmart for $125.00

If health care works-then great I am wrong. If it doesn't - how do we recover.

My dad is a vet- he goes to the VA center in Minnesota and he waits all day to see a doctor. He has been given the wrong blood pressure medicine twice. He visited last week and they didn't even have him in the computer. He has been going their for 5 years.

Why do people have faith in the government running the health care system I don't get it. Please help me understand why anyone would back this.

Why doesn't your dad go to a for profit hospital and use private insurance? Is your daddy a Commie pinko fag?

We can't pay for it! This Country is just about sunk and Obama and his cronies don't even care. What a pitty! This moron has managed to destroy us in under a year!

It will actually cost the government less than the current arrangment - 100 billion dollars less.

Fuckin buffoons, do your goddamn homework.

Boy, Adam makes me miss KissA.

Ugmo wrote:It will actually cost the government less than the current arrangment - 100 billion dollars less.

Fuckin buffoons, do your goddamn homework.

Words....actions mean more. We all will see how much it actually costs and who gets what. Be prepared to take your rosey colored glasses off. The funding will be more than what anyone is estimating. How can you accurately guess on something that has not existed? That is it...it is a guess. Once the figures go out of whack...and it will, because it has for EVERYTHING else the government has miscalculated.....let's see how fair they raise the extra cash. There are only a few ways to do it...moderation..or pass the bill to someone else. It will be very interesting to see this change drastically...and in my opinion, the wrong bill. Before you go sayin all of us Right wings are just against it....I am not against helping those that should get help, but this is not the plan that is right for America.

What is the plan that's right for America? Keep in mind that the Republicans have suggested absolutely nothing of substance, but rather have obstructed the Democrats' efforts since day one.

drloveschild wrote:

Ugmo wrote:It will actually cost the government less than the current arrangment - 100 billion dollars less.

Fuckin buffoons, do your goddamn homework.

Words....actions mean more. We all will see how much it actually costs and who gets what. Be prepared to take your rosey colored glasses off. The funding will be more than what anyone is estimating. How can you accurately guess on something that has not existed? That is it...it is a guess. Once the figures go out of whack...and it will, because it has for EVERYTHING else the government has miscalculated.....let's see how fair they raise the extra cash. There are only a few ways to do it...moderation..or pass the bill to someone else. It will be very interesting to see this change drastically...and in my opinion, the wrong bill. Before you go sayin all of us Right wings are just against it....I am not against helping those that should get help, but this is not the plan that is right for America.

It exists in dozens of countries like ours and works quite well. And you are right, actions mean more. What is the Republican plan of action? Do they even have one other than loudly proclaiming "Democrats suck!"?

Fuck Democrats and Republicans. The GOVERNMENT has no business meddling in Health Care which is PRIVATE. THE PEOPLE have spoke and we are against this Bill. Even those who vote Dem are against this Bill. When the HUGE majority of PEOPLE say NO this means NO! Our Governemnt is suppose to work for us, not make decisions for us. At least the Repulicans get it! This is gonna kill the Dems in 2010 and 2012. And you are wrong, Government Health Care has been absolutly miserable in Canada and England. I, along with a huge majority of Americans are satisfied with my Health Care. I don't want the Government involved in my choices and decisions. This is a Private matter! What can't you people understand????

Redbeard wrote:Fuck Democrats and Republicans. The GOVERNMENT has no business meddling in Health Care which is PRIVATE. THE PEOPLE have spoke and we are against this Bill. Even those who vote Dem are against this Bill. When the HUGE majority of PEOPLE say NO this means NO! Our Governemnt is suppose to work for us, not make decisions for us. At least the Repulicans get it! This is gonna kill the Dems in 2010 and 2012. And you are wrong, Government Health Care has been absolutly miserable in Canada and England. I, along with a huge majority of Americans are satisfied with my Health Care. I don't want the Government involved in my choices and decisions. This is a Private matter! What can't you people understand????

THE PEOPLE voted for Obama and his policies, remember?

True, but the policies he campaigned with and his true Socialists views are two different things and now people see how radical he really is. A HUGE majority of Americans both Dems and Reps are AGAINST this Health Care Bill. Now that the Goverment has gone against what the we the people want, the folks see what's at the end of this tunnel. 2010 and 2012 will be miserable for the Dems when the people vote. Most Dems are just left of center and are against the radical left and now they see how truly left Obama is! I'm done here. Either you get it or you don't! Real American are getting it!

Ugmo wrote:What is the plan that's right for America? Keep in mind that the Republicans have suggested absolutely nothing of substance, but rather have obstructed the Democrats' efforts since day one.

The Democrats have a super majority. The Republicans can't obstruct anything. They are merely bystanders right now. They can cry and whine all they want, there's nothing they can do about it. Any obstructing going on now is being done by centrist Democrats, or the "Blue Dog Democrats", if you will. They're worried about keeping their jobs in the next election if they go against what their constituents want them to do.

drloveschild wrote: Once the figures go out of whack...and it will, because it has for EVERYTHING else the government has miscalculated....

Well, you would certainly EXPECT figures that were miscalculated to go out of whack, wouldn't you? It would be difficult for correctly calculated figures to go out of whack.

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:

Redbeard wrote:Fuck Democrats and Republicans. The GOVERNMENT has no business meddling in Health Care which is PRIVATE. THE PEOPLE have spoke and we are against this Bill. Even those who vote Dem are against this Bill. When the HUGE majority of PEOPLE say NO this means NO! Our Governemnt is suppose to work for us, not make decisions for us. At least the Repulicans get it! This is gonna kill the Dems in 2010 and 2012. And you are wrong, Government Health Care has been absolutly miserable in Canada and England. I, along with a huge majority of Americans are satisfied with my Health Care. I don't want the Government involved in my choices and decisions. This is a Private matter! What can't you people understand????

THE PEOPLE voted for Obama and his policies, remember?

No...actually they voted against Bush and anything associated with him. Many people who voted for Obama...an overwhelming number of voters had no knowledge of what the plans actually were/are.

Ugmo wrote:What is the plan that's right for America? Keep in mind that the Republicans have suggested absolutely nothing of substance, but rather have obstructed the Democrats' efforts since day one.

Look...my views seem to be much less Democrat however, if the idea is good I am all for it. The alternative that the Dems are pushing in current form is NOT the right answer. Here are five reasons why some people think this is a bad idea and will negatively affect everything you and I come in contact with...I cut and pasted this, so these are not my words...nor Fox News.....Number 1,2 and 5 are things I have been saying since it has been mentioned.....Number 5 goes much deeper than what they mentioned. When the Government starts dictating IF you get what you need, WHEN you get what you need and how MUCH of what you need....I have a very big issue with that.

1. The proposal includes forcing EACH BUSINESS NO MATTER HOW LARGE OR SMALL to provide coverage for employees. If you do NOT think that will directly effect things like, your child care cost, Your car repairs,Your groceries...then again you have not thought this through. Some things will triple in cost just to survive.
2. The government can't manage the present level of medicare. When government is in charge of all "medicare" and this is what national healthcare will mean the costs will require a doubling of taxes. The proposal that being floated is a national sales tax on many things you purchase at stores.

3. Higher taxes will mean job losses. Not a scare tactic. Forcing each business to provide health insurance will mean job losses. Many, many small businesses will be forced to close. In fact one in three businesses will cease operations before this legislation is enacted and more will follow.

4. At present rates the health insurance cost
for a family of four - and keep in mind that an employer will have to cover an employee's family - costs about $400 a month. A childcare facility with 10 employees and caring for 40 children will be paying out an additional $4,000 a month. So figure each child's care will rise $40. a month. A family with two children in childcare would see their yearly cost jump to eight thousand a year!

5. The quality of health-care will be cut. Under current medicare it is at least a six hour wait to get into a hospital emergency room on a weekend. Those on medicare pack the waiting rooms to receive care for every minor illness or injury. A regular doctor's visit can take a half a day and that is after waiting two weeks for an appointment. Imagine when healthcare is government run and free!


Here are some more concerns other people are talking about. Again...not my words.

Health care is going to be limited to the younger people and those without major health problems. The proposed legislation being voted on and is set for approval says over and over that the elderly will not receive FULL CARE FOR PROLONGING LIFE. The age limits for "elderly" have yet to be set and that scares anyone under sixty. It is my personal opinion, that this is one of the main groups that my tax money SHOULD be going to help. Senior citiznes, and people who qualify that cannot take care of themselves or the burden of health care costs.

The government is going to define "sick" and you may not qualify if you were born with any handicap or defect.
If you think politicians will not be quick to refuse someone to not risk going over budget...any less than a corporate business...you are on crack. There is a stern objective to keep this under budget and that means rationing, refusing and or raise the amount needed to keep it going. They will be incorrect and the costs will be dramatically higher than anticipated. Guess what that means? You will get an "I am sorry but this is what we have to do" speech. In other words a direct lie.

Just wait till the first time someone on this board has a relative who will be refused care.....because they are to old...or they are told 5 more years of medicine and enduring pain is what THEY think you need (not your choice or the DR) instead of surgery. The system is working in other countries? If you think people do not come to the US to receive better care...or quicker heath care services...you would be ignoring facts. Not everyone there likes it.



To me I feel we are not helping the people that need it. The elderly, the sick and dying. This is just a comfort blanket that is going to be mediocre and very unliked once it is in place. Only to get better? I don't think so.

Well I do know that when I lived at home and my father provided insurance through his job we were told which doctors and specialists we could use. If the doctor you had been using up until that point was not on the list, and he never was, then tough luck. So right there was a bureaucrat limiting my choice of doctors. Most of their specialists were located over a hundred miles away which was a problem since I have chronic asthma.

I don't have a problem being mandated to buy coverage as long as it is affordable and logical. To do this I think the insurance companies should be stripped of their antitrust exemptions. Why do they enjoy this exemption in their industry while virtually every other industry doesn't? It's outdated and should be repealed. Plus, the "public option" will never pass the Senate. I just don't see it happening; maybe a trigger but not a full "public option". And as far as I understand you still have to "buy in" to the option should you choose it. The cost of healthcare has to come down.
.

drloveschild wrote: Look...my views seem to be much less Democrat however, if the idea is good I am all for it. The alternative that the Dems are pushing in current form is NOT the right answer. Here are five reasons why some people think this is a bad idea and will negatively affect everything you and I come in contact with...I cut and pasted this, so these are not my words...nor Fox News.....Number 1,2 and 5 are things I have been saying since it has been mentioned.....Number 5 goes much deeper than what they mentioned. When the Government starts dictating IF you get what you need, WHEN you get what you need and how MUCH of what you need....I have a very big issue with that.

1. The proposal includes forcing EACH BUSINESS NO MATTER HOW LARGE OR SMALL to provide coverage for employees. If you do NOT think that will directly effect things like, your child care cost, Your car repairs,Your groceries...then again you have not thought this through. Some things will triple in cost just to survive.
2. The government can't manage the present level of medicare. When government is in charge of all "medicare" and this is what national healthcare will mean the costs will require a doubling of taxes. The proposal that being floated is a national sales tax on many things you purchase at stores.

3. Higher taxes will mean job losses. Not a scare tactic. Forcing each business to provide health insurance will mean job losses. Many, many small businesses will be forced to close. In fact one in three businesses will cease operations before this legislation is enacted and more will follow.

4. At present rates the health insurance cost
for a family of four - and keep in mind that an employer will have to cover an employee's family - costs about $400 a month. A childcare facility with 10 employees and caring for 40 children will be paying out an additional $4,000 a month. So figure each child's care will rise $40. a month. A family with two children in childcare would see their yearly cost jump to eight thousand a year!

5. The quality of health-care will be cut. Under current medicare it is at least a six hour wait to get into a hospital emergency room on a weekend. Those on medicare pack the waiting rooms to receive care for every minor illness or injury. A regular doctor's visit can take a half a day and that is after waiting two weeks for an appointment. Imagine when healthcare is government run and free!


Here are some more concerns other people are talking about. Again...not my words.

Health care is going to be limited to the younger people and those without major health problems. The proposed legislation being voted on and is set for approval says over and over that the elderly will not receive FULL CARE FOR PROLONGING LIFE. The age limits for "elderly" have yet to be set and that scares anyone under sixty. It is my personal opinion, that this is one of the main groups that my tax money SHOULD be going to help. Senior citiznes, and people who qualify that cannot take care of themselves or the burden of health care costs.

The government is going to define "sick" and you may not qualify if you were born with any handicap or defect.
If you think politicians will not be quick to refuse someone to not risk going over budget...any less than a corporate business...you are on crack. There is a stern objective to keep this under budget and that means rationing, refusing and or raise the amount needed to keep it going. They will be incorrect and the costs will be dramatically higher than anticipated. Guess what that means? You will get an "I am sorry but this is what we have to do" speech. In other words a direct lie.

Just wait till the first time someone on this board has a relative who will be refused care.....because they are to old...or they are told 5 more years of medicine and enduring pain is what THEY think you need (not your choice or the DR) instead of surgery. The system is working in other countries? If you think people do not come to the US to receive better care...or quicker heath care services...you would be ignoring facts. Not everyone there likes it.



To me I feel we are not helping the people that need it. The elderly, the sick and dying. This is just a comfort blanket that is going to be mediocre and very unliked once it is in place. Only to get better? I don't think so.

I love it when people like you save me the trouble of typing all of this out lol

Extremely well put my friend.

Ugmo, since you seem to be supporting this... Tell me something... My father, a Vietnam Veteran who has Multiple Sclerosis and has worked at the same company for over 25 years under the CURRENT Health Care System, constantly has problems because to treat HIS SPECIFIC CASE OF MS - he has to take TWO DIFFERENT EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE MEDICATIONS/PROCEDURES. "The TextBooks" see his current treatment as odd so it is a constant fight between him and his doctor and the Insurance Company. Thank God, we usually end up winning, as best we can in the end. (He gets his medication each month but they fuck him and my mom on most of their other coverage needs)

If Obama's Health Care as it currently stands is passed, I am fuckin scared shitless of what's going to happen to my father. There is no way in fuckin hell he will be able to continue with the current treatments because it is not the standard choice of treatments for MS Patients. The Government will step in and change his treatments which God forbid, can kill him!

Now, please... SOMEBODY tell me why the fuck I shouldn't wish assassination on Obama??

And seriously, if I'm wrong with something or am missing some facts, by all means educate me. I am reading up as much as I can on this shit because it is an extremely legitimate concern for me and my family. And right now, I am extremely unhappy and very worried about this system passing and going into effect.

You should think about editing that post. I can understand you having strong feelings about this, but the "a" word is never a good idea.

Only a true idiot would wish the President of The United States to be assassinated. I hated Bush and his war policies but I never wanted him to be killed, and whenever one of my friends would say something to the effect of wanting him dead I would stop them mid-sentence—he is a human being! You people are acting like Obama has some sinister plan regarding healthcare, which he doesn't. Whether it works out or not, he is doing what he thinks is best, just as GW did in Iraq--even if it was delusional.

Wishing ill on the president is traitorous talk. I don't care if you like his policies or not. He's your president, duly elected by the people. That said, even if something were to happen to the president (God forbid) this thing would get done anyway. Instead of daydreaming about something happening to him, I'd suggest writing your representatives to clue him/her in on your concerns with this bill.

Yeah, if one were to follow such a horrible thing to its conclusion, a democrat would still be in office and last time I checked Healthcare reform was one of the main planks of their platform.

Ugmo wrote:It will actually cost the government less than the current arrangment - 100 billion dollars less.

Fuckin buffoons, do your goddamn homework.

Ugmo I actually find you to usually be pretty well read/etc. If you TRULY believe that our government, no matter who is at the helm, can pull this feat off - you've lost your mind. They have no idea what it will cost and I simply point to Medicare as an example.

TheInfiniteStaircase wrote:Now, please... SOMEBODY tell me why the fuck I shouldn't wish assassination on Obama??

^^^ This idiotic & borderline criminal statement above speaks for itself.



http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/t028.htm

THREATS AGAINST PRESIDENT - 18 USC 871, makes it a Federal crime or offense for anyone to willfully make a true threat to injure or kill the President of the United States.

A person can be found guilty of that offense only if all of the following facts are proved beyond a reasonable doubt:

First: That the person uttered words alleged to be the threat against the President;

Second: That the person understood and meant the words he used as a true threat; and

Third: That the person uttered the words knowingly and willfully.

A "threat" is a statement expressing an intention to kill or injure the President; and a "true threat" means a serious threat as distinguished from words used as mere political argument, idle or careless talk, or something said in a joking manner.

The essence of the offense is the knowing and willful making of a true threat. So, if it is proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the person knowingly made a true threat against the President, willfully intending that it be understood by others as a serious threat, then the offense is complete; it is not necessary to prove that the person actually intended to carry out the threat.

TheInfiniteStaircase wrote:Now, please... SOMEBODY tell me why the fuck I shouldn't wish assassination on Obama??

This question borders on being redundant, but are you mentally retarded ?

TheInfiniteStaircase wrote:Ugmo, since you seem to be supporting this... Tell me something... My father, a Vietnam Veteran who has Multiple Sclerosis and has worked at the same company for over 25 years under the CURRENT Health Care System, constantly has problems because to treat HIS SPECIFIC CASE OF MS - he has to take TWO DIFFERENT EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE MEDICATIONS/PROCEDURES. "The TextBooks" see his current treatment as odd so it is a constant fight between him and his doctor and the Insurance Company. Thank God, we usually end up winning, as best we can in the end. (He gets his medication each month but they fuck him and my mom on most of their other coverage needs)

If Obama's Health Care as it currently stands is passed, I am fuckin scared shitless of what's going to happen to my father. There is no way in fuckin hell he will be able to continue with the current treatments because it is not the standard choice of treatments for MS Patients. The Government will step in and change his treatments which God forbid, can kill him!

Why would the government step in? I'm not sure I understand that. Who provides his health insurance right now? Would that be replaced with the government option for some reason?

I can understand being concerned about any changes to the current system, but it sounds to me like you're being hysterical here.

wylde342 wrote:Ugmo I actually find you to usually be pretty well read/etc. If you TRULY believe that our government, no matter who is at the helm, can pull this feat off - you've lost your mind. They have no idea what it will cost and I simply point to Medicare as an example.

Is there something about the U.S. government that makes it innately less competent than other governments? Dozens and dozens of other countries around the world succeed in operating a universal health care system relatively efficiently. There is really no reason at all why the U.S. should be worse at it.

You are worrying about what it would cost - are you aware that health care already costs the U.S. government much more than any other government in the world? And yet a huge percentage of the population has no insurance coverage? The whole purpose of this plan is to reduce costs while covering everyone.

pooldude wrote:

TheInfiniteStaircase wrote:Now, please... SOMEBODY tell me why the fuck I shouldn't wish assassination on Obama??

^^^ This idiotic & borderline criminal statement above speaks for itself.



http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/t028.htm

THREATS AGAINST PRESIDENT - 18 USC 871, makes it a Federal crime or offense for anyone to willfully make a true threat to injure or kill the President of the United States.

A person can be found guilty of that offense only if all of the following facts are proved beyond a reasonable doubt:

First: That the person uttered words alleged to be the threat against the President;

Second: That the person understood and meant the words he used as a true threat; and

Third: That the person uttered the words knowingly and willfully.

A "threat" is a statement expressing an intention to kill or injure the President; and a "true threat" means a serious threat as distinguished from words used as mere political argument, idle or careless talk, or something said in a joking manner.

The essence of the offense is the knowing and willful making of a true threat. So, if it is proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the person knowingly made a true threat against the President, willfully intending that it be understood by others as a serious threat, then the offense is complete; it is not necessary to prove that the person actually intended to carry out the threat.

Lets not go overboard here. His statement is dumb and obviously not very well thought out (pssst Secret Serrvice, I'm not advocating ANYTHING bad happening to the POTUS, just to be absolutely clear), but he didn't make any sort of threat. Wishing ill on someone is not the same thing as stating that you will be any part of causing it.

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:

adam wrote:Can someone please tell me how we pay for Health care for everyone?

1. I keep hearing the government is going to cut out all the waste in the system to save money.

Then why does the military by a hammer for $1000 and at Home Depot is is $25.
Why does the post office pay $500 for a tire and you can get one at Walmart for $125.00

If health care works-then great I am wrong. If it doesn't - how do we recover.

My dad is a vet- he goes to the VA center in Minnesota and he waits all day to see a doctor. He has been given the wrong blood pressure medicine twice. He visited last week and they didn't even have him in the computer. He has been going their for 5 years.

Why do people have faith in the government running the health care system I don't get it. Please help me understand why anyone would back this.

Why doesn't your dad go to a for profit hospital and use private insurance? Is your daddy a Commie pinko fag?

It's pinko commie faggot. Say it right or Ron Jeremy will flash you.

Redbeard wrote:We can't pay for it! This Country is just about sunk and Obama and his cronies don't even care. What a pitty! This moron has managed to destroy us in under a year!

As opposed to Bush leading us into this huge depression and took us from the greatest surplus in American history to horrible recession. If I remember correctly it was still on a huge downswing as Obama was taking office. The man is trying and that is more than I can say about a man who spent 1/3 of his term on vacation.