Metal Sludge Gossip Board

How did the USA become one of the most powerful countries in history yet it's government unable to carry out the simplest of tasks? Dozens of countries have functional, efficient healthcare systems yet it is impossible for the US to do so because the US government is incompetent and fails every task it undertakes. Are there two United States of America? One the stable, prosperous one I live in and the other a conservative hellhole perennially on the verge of collapse?

Have current government run programs given you confidence that a government run healthcare system will be efficient? That's the question. A passive aggressive shot at the patriotism of those that are wary reminds me an awful lot of the last admin's take on war protestors.

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote: One the stable, prosperous one I live in and the other a conservative hellhole perennially on the verge of collapse?

This stable, prosperous one you live in, what's the unemployment rate?

bane wrote:Have current government run programs given you confidence that a government run healthcare system will be efficient?

Yes. The US government does pretty good most of the time and dozens of countries with far less resources than the US manage quite well. Does the performance of the real estate, financial and automotive industries justify the faith you place in private enterprise? If privately run health care were performing optimally, this would not even be an issue.

bane wrote:That's the question. A passive aggressive shot at the patriotism of those that are wary reminds me an awful lot of the last admin's take on war protestors.

Bullshit. Do you read any of your fellow conservatives' posts? The US government's legendary inefficiency and incompetence is the argument most conservatives roll out when discussing any government program regardless of merit. Also, fuck your patriotism. Feel free to use your tears of outrage to wash the sand from your pussy.

fatbass wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote: One the stable, prosperous one I live in and the other a conservative hellhole perennially on the verge of collapse?

This stable, prosperous one you live in, what's the unemployment rate?

Need I say more, Bane?

They don't do "a pretty good job" at the federal level. They fuck it up every time they turn around. Where's Social Security? Oh that's right, they fucking spent it. Where's the bringing Big Pharm into line? Oh that's right, the POTUS is making back room deals with them. Remember how much "Bush hated the black man" when FEMA dropped the ball with Katrina? That was Bush's fault though, so it doesn't matter? Bullshit. It was another example of federal redtape inefficiency, just like a 100 other things. These things don't make you question their competence?

That said, I'm not saying they can't do it. I'm saying I don't trust them not to fuck it up. Maybe they'll prove me wrong. It'd be awesome if they did. It's not like I have any choice in the matter anyway.

I never used to believe it, but EYU has listed in a nutshell why there needs to be MORE govt. oversight of this stuff. Everyone who cries about capitalism making this country is great is half right...the greed and wanton irresponsibility that comes with that greatness is what's dragging it down.

enter your username wrote:

bane wrote:Have current government run programs given you confidence that a government run healthcare system will be efficient? That's the question.

Depends on what govt run program you are talking about and how you measure efficiency. If you're talking about health insurance, govt does a superior job based on a comparison of the administrative costs.

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has found that administrative costs under the public Medicare plan are less than 2 percent of expenditures, compared with approximately 11 percent of spending by private plans under Medicare Advantage

In general, if you're comparing Govt insurance to private insurance, Govt wins most if not all of the time. Everyone who has a savings account relies on govt. insurance (FDIC). People trust their life savings to be insured by the Govt. When the Feds guarantee a junk bond, it becomes AAA immediately. The private sector does a very poor job of insuring bonds. Private guarantees are one reason for the current financial crisis. Credit default swaps are private bond insurance and they crashed AIG and Lehman.

bane wrote:They don't do "a pretty good job" at the federal level. They fuck it up every time they turn around.

Citigroup, Bank of America, GM, Chrysler, AIG, Lehman Bros, the list goes on and on. All companies that were run incompetantly and rescued by the government.

119 banks have failed this year and the FDIC has handled each one flawlessly.

Right now the failures are in the private sector, not the government. The private sector is fucking things up every time you turn around.

Valid points, BUT- How easy has your experience been when dealing with a federal agency on a customer service level? Have you ever seen the amount of bullshit that is involved with something as simple as a social security dispute? Hell, it took me a month with 4 trips to their office and a 3 hour wait each time just to get a social security card for my son because somebody fucked up and spelled his name wrong in their system. Like any other red tape operation, they're inflexible and aren't set up to deal with the unavoidable glitches that come along from time to time. Sure they handle all the typical shit just fine, but throw a curveball at them and it's the end of the fucking world. The IRS isn't exactly customer service friendly either. When I envision having to deal with a similar response when I want to get my medication upgraded or when my doctor wants to do an operation that isn't part of the norm, it scares the hell out of me. Again, I'm not saying it's not possible for the feds to run that program efficiently, I'm stating that I have reservations.

I do think that change is needed and that government oversight is a good idea, don't get me wrong, but I don't know that I'm all that thrilled about them running the whole show.

Worldcomm. Enron. Lehman Brothers. AIG. GM. Chrysler. Is your faith in private enterprise entirely justified? I can play this game forever.

I don't have a problem with private enterprise in general. Because of it, even the poorest of Americans enjoy items like TVs, cars, computers and cell phones, which are luxuries reserved for the wealthy in too many parts of the world even today. I also realize that there are some things which are never served by focusing on the bottom line. Health care is one of these. Private enterprise has had decades to remedy this like it has done with other things but it has failed miserably in the task. There are many countries that manage health care efficiently, some of them with economies a fraction of ours. We as a nation put men on the Moon, linked our cities with highways and connected the world's computers in a giant network. If other nations can build working health care systems, so can we.

What I don't understand is the tendency of conservatives to ignore all the US, through it's government, has accomplished? It makes no more sense than the liberals that condemn private enterprise as a whole even as they enjoy it's many fruits. Government is not the answer to every problem but it's stupid to claim it answers none at all.

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:
What I don't understand is the tendency of conservatives to ignore all the US, through it's government, has accomplished? It makes no more sense than the liberals that condemn private enterprise as a whole even as they enjoy it's many fruits. Government is not the answer to every problem but it's stupid to claim it answers none at all.

I'm not stating that government isn't a solution. I'm stating that I have serious reservations about the FEDERAL government running our healthcare system. I do think that the feds need to have regulation in place to guard against greed, but I think I'd feel better about this thing if it was done at the state level.

bane wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:
What I don't understand is the tendency of conservatives to ignore all the US, through it's government, has accomplished? It makes no more sense than the liberals that condemn private enterprise as a whole even as they enjoy it's many fruits. Government is not the answer to every problem but it's stupid to claim it answers none at all.

I'm not stating that government isn't a solution. I'm stating that I have serious reservations about the FEDERAL government running our healthcare system. I do think that the feds need to have regulation in place to guard against greed, but I think I'd feel better about this thing if it was done at the state level.

I know. Far too many do, like Fatbass, adam, Redbeard, Wylde342, drloveschild, and Roadhead to name a conspicuously absent few. I do find it ironic that those cunts love to wrap themselves in the flag of the country they shit talk at every opportunity.

bane wrote: I think I'd feel better about this thing if it was done at the state level.

I'd probably feel the same way if I lived anywhere else but Utah. I absolutely can't trust the troglodytes in our state legislature to do the right thing. Because in the hundred or so years we've been a state they haven't yet. I'd rather roll the dice with what everybody else in America is getting.

Or as a saying I heard several years ago goes, Conservatives say government doesn't work then prove it when they take over.

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:

bane wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:
What I don't understand is the tendency of conservatives to ignore all the US, through it's government, has accomplished? It makes no more sense than the liberals that condemn private enterprise as a whole even as they enjoy it's many fruits. Government is not the answer to every problem but it's stupid to claim it answers none at all.

I'm not stating that government isn't a solution. I'm stating that I have serious reservations about the FEDERAL government running our healthcare system. I do think that the feds need to have regulation in place to guard against greed, but I think I'd feel better about this thing if it was done at the state level.

I know. Far too many do, like Fatbass, adam, Redbeard, Wylde342, drloveschild, and Roadhead to name a conspicuously absent few. I do find it ironic that those cunts love to wrap themselves in the flag of the country they shit talk at every opportunity.

Wow. OK dude. Remind you to compare you to Kaos the next time you agree with Obama. Birds of a feather and all.

bane wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:

bane wrote:
I'm not stating that government isn't a solution. I'm stating that I have serious reservations about the FEDERAL government running our healthcare system. I do think that the feds need to have regulation in place to guard against greed, but I think I'd feel better about this thing if it was done at the state level.

I know. Far too many do, like Fatbass, adam, Redbeard, Wylde342, drloveschild, and Roadhead to name a conspicuously absent few. I do find it ironic that those cunts love to wrap themselves in the flag of the country they shit talk at every opportunity.

Wow. OK dude. Remind you to compare you to Kaos the next time you agree with Obama. Birds of a feather and all.

I didn't intend to include you in that group. I merely acknowledged your statement and went on to name those who do epitomize my point. My apologies for any confusion.

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:

bane wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:
What I don't understand is the tendency of conservatives to ignore all the US, through it's government, has accomplished? It makes no more sense than the liberals that condemn private enterprise as a whole even as they enjoy it's many fruits. Government is not the answer to every problem but it's stupid to claim it answers none at all.

I'm not stating that government isn't a solution. I'm stating that I have serious reservations about the FEDERAL government running our healthcare system. I do think that the feds need to have regulation in place to guard against greed, but I think I'd feel better about this thing if it was done at the state level.

I know. Far too many do, like Fatbass, adam, Redbeard, Wylde342, drloveschild, and Roadhead to name a conspicuously absent few. I do find it ironic that those cunts love to wrap themselves in the flag of the country they shit talk at every opportunity.

Shit talk America? WE do not shit talk America. There are members of our government who fail. Fact.
Currently we point out that we disagree with the proposed government run health care plan. We point out that there will be drastic changes that no one selling you the bill wants to focus on. The Government is ill prepared to do an immediate take over. There will be very negative effects to do this they way they propose and we do not want it in place in current form. That does not mean we want absolutely no progress. They want to pass the bad health care bill because a bad bill change is better than nothing at all. They admit it....and what kind of dumb ass logic is that? I do not blindly follow....again, by learning from the last administrations mistakes...why would you NOT question things more? Why would you NOT want your elected officials to be held accountable for better decisions. America is great, I love it. SImply put...some of the people in charge lost the idea of what it is actually about. Lastly, we do not have to do something because everyone else does....especially when it is a poor version.

drloveschild wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:

bane wrote: I'm not stating that government isn't a solution. I'm stating that I have serious reservations about the FEDERAL government running our healthcare system. I do think that the feds need to have regulation in place to guard against greed, but I think I'd feel better about this thing if it was done at the state level.

I know. Far too many do, like Fatbass, adam, Redbeard, Wylde342, drloveschild, and Roadhead to name a conspicuously absent few. I do find it ironic that those cunts love to wrap themselves in the flag of the country they shit talk at every opportunity.

Shit talk America? WE do not shit talk America.

The Republican mantra is that of the failure of the US government in all it's tasks, except of course when Dubya was in office. Then it was unamerican, unpatriotic and sometimes even treasonous. It's great that you now love the country that you hold up as a shining example of ineptitude and failure.

drloveschild wrote:I do not blindly follow....again, by learning from the last administrations mistakes...why would you NOT question things more? Why would you NOT want your elected officials to be held accountable for better decisions.

Better to learn this later than never.

drloveschild wrote:Lastly, we do not have to do something because everyone else does....especially when it is a poor version.

Nor should we stick with what we've got now especially since we know it is worse than everything else. Don't confuse my belief that we can do what others have done as well if not better with something else. I didn't spend the last eight years blindly swallowing all I was told in order to be a patriot. Don't be stupid enough to assume I'll take up your habits now.

By the way, what is the Republican health care plan? Do you have one that goes beyond the bitching and whining we've heard so far? If you're not part of the solution, get the fuck out of the way for those who are.

the passenger wrote:Because their media demagogues are doing everything they can to convince them that it is. If they turn on the TV and watch Beck, Hannity, O'reilly, and the rest of Faux News' agenda-pushing hitmen carrying on about the same thing, odds, are they're going to eventually buy into it. I'm not sure if the conservatives actually believe the shit they see on Fox nowadays- as it's gotten so far over the top that they'd have to be retarded to- or if they're just pretending to buy into it to piss of the rest of us rationals.

And you only think this because of what your media demagogues tell you.

It's funny to me how many people think there was no conservatism before Fox News came along and told everyone which side to take.

fatbass wrote:

the passenger wrote:Because their media demagogues are doing everything they can to convince them that it is. If they turn on the TV and watch Beck, Hannity, O'reilly, and the rest of Faux News' agenda-pushing hitmen carrying on about the same thing, odds, are they're going to eventually buy into it. I'm not sure if the conservatives actually believe the shit they see on Fox nowadays- as it's gotten so far over the top that they'd have to be retarded to- or if they're just pretending to buy into it to piss of the rest of us rationals.

And you only think this because of what your media demagogues tell you.

It's funny to me how many people think there was no conservatism before Fox News came along and told everyone which side to take.

No, just not the faux conservative bullshit the Republican Party stands for now.

the passenger wrote: Actually fatass,

Brilliant.

the passenger wrote: What I do have a problem with is people blindly following orders and be they from behind a pulpit or a teleprompter.

Are you talking about the President here?

the passenger wrote:
I just prefer to support the side whose fringe members don't burn crosses or bomb federal buildings.

You mean like Robert Byrd and Bill Ayers?

fatbass wrote:

the passenger wrote: Actually fatass,

Brilliant.

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:The Republican mantra is that of the failure of the US government in all it's tasks, except of course when Dubya was in office. Then it was unamerican, unpatriotic and sometimes even treasonous. It's great that you now love the country that you hold up as a shining example of ineptitude and failure.

drloveschild wrote:I do not blindly follow....again, by learning from the last administrations mistakes...why would you NOT question things more? Why would you NOT want your elected officials to be held accountable for better decisions.

Better to learn this later than never.

drloveschild wrote:Lastly, we do not have to do something because everyone else does....especially when it is a poor version.

Nor should we stick with what we've got now especially since we know it is worse than everything else. Don't confuse my belief that we can do what others have done as well if not better with something else. I didn't spend the last eight years blindly swallowing all I was told in order to be a patriot. Don't be stupid enough to assume I'll take up your habits now.

By the way, what is the Republican health care plan? Do you have one that goes beyond the bitching and whining we've heard so far? If you're not part of the solution, get the fuck out of the way for those who are.

Here lies your problem, you distort peoples concerns, and you complain about Republicans? Pot meet kettle. America is great and I am definatley not saying we should stick with everything being the same. Also....some people in both parties and some rules are shit....not America. I pick on the players not the game. The Dems want to change the game. Bad idea. Because the plan is not a wise move for various reasons. The water gets dirty...it is expected. Although..you do not throw the baby out with the bath water. As far as the arguement...we should go with this even though it is bad because no one else has brought a plan to the table....dude, you should go into business with that logic. Try getting a business loan with a bad plan and use that line, see what happens. You can even chose a bank ran by Democrats.

drloveschild wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:The Republican mantra is that of the failure of the US government in all it's tasks, except of course when Dubya was in office. Then it was unamerican, unpatriotic and sometimes even treasonous. It's great that you now love the country that you hold up as a shining example of ineptitude and failure.

drloveschild wrote:I do not blindly follow....again, by learning from the last administrations mistakes...why would you NOT question things more? Why would you NOT want your elected officials to be held accountable for better decisions.

Better to learn this later than never.

drloveschild wrote:Lastly, we do not have to do something because everyone else does....especially when it is a poor version.

Nor should we stick with what we've got now especially since we know it is worse than everything else. Don't confuse my belief that we can do what others have done as well if not better with something else. I didn't spend the last eight years blindly swallowing all I was told in order to be a patriot. Don't be stupid enough to assume I'll take up your habits now.

By the way, what is the Republican health care plan? Do you have one that goes beyond the bitching and whining we've heard so far? If you're not part of the solution, get the fuck out of the way for those who are.

Here lies your problem, you distort peoples concerns, and you complain about Republicans? Pot meet kettle. America is great and I am definatley not saying we should stick with everything being the same. Also....some people in both parties and some rules are shit....not America. I pick on the players not the game. The Dems want to change the game. Bad idea. Because the plan is not a wise move for various reasons. The water gets dirty...it is expected. Although..you do not throw the baby out with the bath water. As far as the arguement...we should go with this even though it is bad because no one else has brought a plan to the table....dude, you should go into business with that logic. Try getting a business loan with a bad plan and use that line, see what happens. You can even chose a bank ran by Democrats.

Oh, please. Conservatives, by definition, want the status quo and abhor change.

Yeah, I can go to any one of the banks the Republicans and their cronies ran into the ground as they are now ran by the Democrats. The Dems do want to change the health care game because we are all getting fucked over by the rules. That baby you are so worried about is the misbegotten abortion of our current private insurance system. While the current plan is not what I hoped for, it is better than the clusterfuck that is the status quo. The Republicans claim they want to fix the system but all they've done is bitch and whine. They have no plan because the current system can't be fixed. Take your nonexistent plan to the bank (Republican or Democrat) and this will be their reaction:

Hmmm. Let's see...

USPS
Walter Reed Army Medical Center
The Department Of Defense
FEMA/New Orleans reconstruction
Social Security
AmTrak
Fannie Mae
Freddie Mac
Medicare

Wow! That's quite the track record of incompetence the government has there. Health care from the people that brought us the U.S. Postal Service? *Laughs*

Oh, but I'm sure government run health care will be different. *Laughs harder*

And I'm sure it will be efficiently well run, will be cost effective, will be responsive to the patient regardless of cost, and no one will ever get screwed over by incompetent and uncaring "red tape" loving bureaucrats.

"ObamaCare" (or should I say "PelosiCare"? lol) has disaster written all over it (if not completely thought out, of course). Now if I were a Republican candidate running for any kind of office, I'd be thrilled the Dems have their name all over this potential mess.

Disclaimer: I am in no way advocating the current health care system, but I just don't believe that nationalizing the entire U.S. health care system is the answer.

An other thing, did anyone in the White House, the Congress, or the Senate even bother to take the time to read the 1,990 pages of the health care bill that they're so eager to pass?

And a word of advice for the president, he better make certain that this new system doesn't cause any financial problems/inconveniences for any of the AARP members, or he can kiss his re-election chances in 2012 goodbye.

EvilMadman wrote:Hmmm. Let's see...

USPS
Walter Reed Army Medical Center
The Department Of Defense
FEMA/New Orleans reconstruction
Social Security
AmTrak
Fannie Mae
Freddie Mac
Medicare

Wow! That's quite the track record of incompetence the government has there. Health care from the people that brought us the U.S. Postal Service? *Laughs*

Oh, but I'm sure government run health care will be different. *Laughs harder*

That's quite a list but you left out the actual track record part. Since you mentioned the Post Office twice for emphasis, ask FedEx to send your phone bill for $.44 and you'll hear some real laughter.

EvilMadman wrote:And I'm sure it will be efficiently well run, will be cost effective, will be responsive to the patient regardless of cost, and no one will ever get screwed over by incompetent and uncaring "red tape" loving bureaucrats.

[irony]Fortunately, our current private health insurance system fits all these criteria.[/irony]

EvilMadman wrote:"ObamaCare" (or should I say "PelosiCare"? lol) has disaster written all over it (if not completely thought out, of course). Now if I were a Republican candidate running for any kind of office, I'd be thrilled the Dems have their name all over this potential mess.

The Republicans are the friends of the private health insurance industry, the cause of this current mess and Democrats are thrilled to point that out.

EvilMadman wrote:Disclaimer: I am in no way advocating the current health care system, but I just don't believe that nationalizing the entire U.S. health care system is the answer.

What do you advocate? Doing nothing is a tacit endorsement of the current system. And to clear up your misconceptions, the entire health care system is not being nationalized under any plan.

EvilMadman wrote:An other thing, did anyone in the White House, the Congress, or the Senate even bother to take the time to read the 1,990 pages of the health care bill that they're so eager to pass?

I'm sure as many as read the Patriot Act.

EvilMadman wrote:And a word of advice for the president, he better make certain that this new system doesn't cause any financial problems/inconveniences for any of the AARP members, or he can kiss his re-election chances in 2012 goodbye.

I'm sure the President will appreciate your advice.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:That's quite a list but you left out the actual track record part. Since you mentioned the Post Office twice for emphasis, ask FedEx to send your phone bill for $.44 and you'll hear some real laughter.

Hey, it it were legal for UPS or FedEx or DHL etc. to handle letters, postcards etc., I'm sure that they would more than likely increase their bottom line, eventually. USPS just keeps raising the prices of stamps so fast that you can barely use the ones you bought before the next increase anyway. Those companies already handle how many packages? So why wouldn't they be able to expand their operations to include letters, especially if there were profit to be made? Now I'm not certain, but maybe they could do it for a competitive price.

Oh yeah, and I left out airline security. Be sure to add that to the list of government run incompetence.

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:[irony]Fortunately, our current private health insurance system fits all these criteria.[/irony]

[dumb]So replace it with the exact same system, but instead of privately run, government run, and even more expensive?[/dumb]

How about the Democratic leadership actually "crosses the aisle" and works with the Republicans to solve the health care problem in the right way, instead of rushing to cram this thing down the nation's throat?

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:The Republicans are the friends of the private health insurance industry, the cause of this current mess and Democrats are thrilled to point that out.

So you're only blaming Republicans for the problems of private health care in America? Actually, you might've made a good point if you wrote: "The nation's politicians are the friends of the private health insurance industry, the cause of this current mess" instead?

And the Democrats have become the friends of the Pharmaceutical industry, so what? So, politicians are "in bed" with special interest groups? Wow, that's news to me...not!

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:What do you advocate? Doing nothing is a tacit endorsement of the current system. And to clear up your misconceptions, the entire health care system is not being nationalized under any plan.

Hey, just because I didn't mention what to do in my previous post doesn't mean that I'm an advocate of doing nothing at all. Okay, 40 million uninsured Americans currently? Then how about some kind of a discount government health care program just for them and leave alone the tens millions of other people who are already satisfied with their health insurance, instead of creating a brand new MEGA-EXPENSIVE bureaucratic monstrosity that will probably end up with a lot of the same problems of the current system?

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:I'm sure as many as read the Patriot Act.

You're right, the nation's leaders probably didn't fully read that legislation either. Well then, that's shame on them.

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:I'm sure the President will appreciate your advice.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/

Yeah, maybe he will appreciate it.

Plus I could mention that he doesn't need to constantly bow down to every person that he meets.



He could end up with a sore back.

EvilMadman wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:That's quite a list but you left out the actual track record part. Since you mentioned the Post Office twice for emphasis, ask FedEx to send your phone bill for $.44 and you'll hear some real laughter.

Hey, it it were legal for UPS or FedEx or DHL etc. to handle letters, postcards etc., I'm sure that they would more than likely increase their bottom line, eventually. USPS just keeps raising the prices of stamps so fast that you can barely use the ones you bought before the next increase anyway. Those companies already handle how many packages? So why wouldn't they be able to expand their operations to include letters, especially if there were profit to be made? Now I'm not certain, but maybe they could do it for a competitive price.

Oh yeah, and I left out airline security. Be sure to add that to the list of government run incompetence.

For $.44? Don't be so sure. The Post Office beats Fedex and UPS at their own game.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/mone ... ces-ov.htm

As for airline security, when was the last plane hijacked in the US?

EvilMadman wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:[irony]Fortunately, our current private health insurance system fits all these criteria.[/irony]

[dumb]So replace it with the exact same system, but instead of privately run, government run, and even more expensive?[/dumb]

How about the Democratic leadership actually "crosses the aisle" and works with the Republicans to solve the health care problem in the right way, instead of rushing to cram this thing down the nation's throat?

They have been across that aisle but found themselves unwelcome. Now it's time for them to get the job done with or without them.

EvilMadman wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:The Republicans are the friends of the private health insurance industry, the cause of this current mess and Democrats are thrilled to point that out.

So you're only blaming Republicans for the problems of private health care in America? Actually, you might've made a good point if you wrote: "The nation's politicians are the friends of the private health insurance industry, the cause of this current mess" instead?

And the Democrats have become the friends of the Pharmaceutical industry, so what? So, politicians are "in bed" with special interest groups? Wow, that's news to me...not!

I do know who's been writing the laws for the last few years and whose payroll they were on.
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=F09
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=H04
It looks like they're hoping to buy new friends now that their old friends, the Republicans, are not much use to them anymore, though.

EvilMadman wrote:

MasterOfMeatPuppets wrote:What do you advocate? Doing nothing is a tacit endorsement of the current system. And to clear up your misconceptions, the entire health care system is not being nationalized under any plan.

Hey, just because I didn't mention what to do in my previous post doesn't mean that I'm an advocate of doing nothing at all. Okay, 40 million uninsured Americans currently? Then how about some kind of a discount government health care program just for them and leave alone the tens millions of other people who are already satisfied with their health insurance, instead of creating a brand new MEGA-EXPENSIVE bureaucratic monstrosity that will probably end up with a lot of the same problems of the current system?

That is exactly what Obama wants to do. Welcome to the club. http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

That is exactly what Obama wants to do. Welcome to the club. http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

it's funny how that page doesn't mention the mandate, which is essentially the lynchpin of Obama's plan, if this bill passes, I wonder how much more control Obama is going to want over our (post tax) finances

SmokeyRamone wrote:

That is exactly what Obama wants to do. Welcome to the club. http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

it's funny how that page doesn't mention the mandate, which is essentially the lynchpin of Obama's plan, if this bill passes, I wonder how much more control Obama is going to want over our (post tax) finances

http://www.rwjf.org/coverage/product.jsp?id=49148

even though that's a link to a government funded think tank, the results are a worst case scenario, and obviously just an series of educated guesses, I do agree that something has to be done, but Obama is going about it the wrong way, as far as I'm concerned, the majority of his plan is shit.

How about he starts addressing all the waste and fraud, both on the government's end and in the private sector? Prove they can make some real progress with that rather than making everyone in the country buy into it with no cost controls, and no plan to eliminate the billions of dollars that get wasted every year? Lots of people have very little faith in the government to get something like this done efficiently, and rightfully so, they should be trying to prove to us that they can make improvements, not force us to do business with the same companies they're maligning as greedy.

it addresses the mandate for large employers to provide insurance, not the mandate for everyone who's not employed by a large company to buy insurance

as far as my comment about fraud and waste, I know he addresses it on his site, but he's just giving it lip service, I think he should have to prove himself and start eliminating fraud and waste before trying to implement a mandate, in the other health care thread I posted an article about how more than $50 billion in questionable claims were paid out by medicare and medicaid, that doesn't give me much hope that they're going to do any better with more control