Help me understand the outcry against a "public option"

[tin00can]

I live in a state that has great subsidized govt health for working poor people or students like myself. I have been on it and it is 10x better than what my current job offers. You pay a premium based on your income (anywhere from 17 bucks a month to 100) and everything is covered pretty well.

That's good that you have coverage you normally would not have. My question is who in your state pays for it? Is it just free with no cost to anyone? Does it even matter?

When will the rhetorical questions end?

[Supersonic]

Everyone deserves equally good health care. It is something that should transcend money, and does in EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION.

And everyone should deserve quality housing since those that can't afford it may be living in unhealthy living conditions and their children could suffer the consequences! Those living in a nice house with running water and sanitary conditions MUST PAY! I mean, what's a few thousand dollars out of their pocket each year anyways? They don't need it! It's a right, not a priviledge!

Do you consider education a right or a privilege?

When I'm employing staff, I prefer them to be educated. It helps them understand what we want them to do. However, what I also want is a workforce who are healthy and fit for work. If they are neither, then I don't really want them.

It's all about where you draw the line I guess.

[chickenona]

Everyone deserves equally good health care. It is something that should transcend money, and does in EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED NATION.

And everyone should deserve quality housing since those that can't afford it may be living in unhealthy living conditions and their children could suffer the consequences! Those living in a nice house with running water and sanitary conditions MUST PAY! I mean, what's a few thousand dollars out of their pocket each year anyways? They don't need it! It's a right, not a priviledge!

Oh, take a fucking pill with your goddam "It's not FAIR!" right-wing rhetoric.

I've said it before here, and I'll say it again. Anybody who considers health care an "extra" that you have to "earn" is a rotten human being.

[chickenona]

Health care is not the same thing as a car. A person who needs dialysis and can't afford it isn't going to die without a car.

But I'm glad you're comfortable admitting that you think if a person can't afford health insurance they deserve to stay sick so as not to possibly cost you any money.

[JakeYonkel]

Does everybody "deserve" a roof over their head too? You know, not everybody needs one, but if you live in a cold area you do.

That's a more pressing issue to me, there are plenty of bums without shelter. We should have to pay for that.

I don't think health care is a privilege, per se, but where does the line get drawn between shit that most people have to actually, um, WORK FOR, versus stuff simply being handed out? Where is the incentive to ever work if the government is going to just give us EVERYTHING they deem a "right" and that we deserve?

[chickenona]

The line should get drawn when denying the service becomes inhumane. I think I've repeatedly made it clear that's where I think the line should be drawn.

And the government already DOES provide housing to the poor. It's called Section 8.

I find it absurd that this is even something that should be argued. All the people you really don't want getting free health care are already getting it, and as Cliff already pointed out, the extra cost of a public option for people who DO "work hard" but just haven't "succeeded" would be so nominal we wouldn't even feel it.

[JakeYonkel]

Listen, my wife works for the public school system and the Blue Cross insurance they provide to employees IS good coverage but is ridiculously expensive. They jacked the costs up in September so we had to take a lesser plan or else half her paycheck would have been being taken for healthcare. So now we actually have pretty shitty coverage.

If this shit passes and people like us are offered some sort of subsidy to keep our private insurance and offset the cost, I'll be all over that shit. If everybody else gets to benefit and our taxes are paying for you bet I'll be benefiting from it as well.

And I'm well aware that scummy people are already getting free health care and ANYBODY can walk into an emergency room and get care. And we're paying for that.

But that being said, I don't see why that needs to be changed. Emergency care is covered. Private health insurance IS a privilege. You don't have to be sick and die in the street. Go the fucking hospital.

This shit just means more taxes, which the majority of America does NOT want.

[lerxstcat]

Listen, my wife works for the public school system and the Blue Cross insurance they provide to employees IS good coverage but is ridiculously expensive. They jacked the costs up in September so we had to take a lesser plan or else half her paycheck would have been being taken for healthcare. So now we actually have pretty shitty coverage.

If this shit passes and people like us are offered some sort of subsidy to keep our private insurance and offset the cost, I'll be all over that shit. If everybody else gets to benefit and our taxes are paying for you bet I'll be benefiting from it as well.

And I'm well aware that scummy people are already getting free health care and ANYBODY can walk into an emergency room and get care. And we're paying for that.

But that being said, I don't see why that needs to be changed. Emergency care is covered. Private health insurance IS a privilege. You don't have to be sick and die in the street. Go the fucking hospital.

This shit just means more taxes, which the majority of America does NOT want.

"Scummy people" eh? Fuck you very much, Jake. You won the lottery and talk down to the rest of us? Your wife is the actual breadwinner, you pick up the by-chance equivalent of a big welfare check. I don't begrudge you that, but come on, you ain't slaving for your money, so don't act like you are.

Why change? Let's see... someone goes to the ER because they have the flu, and no insurance. The ER is going to generate a bill in the thousands of dollars, testing for everything from flu to heart disease, to cover its ass liability-wise - which ultimately is passed on to taxpayers.

Now if we had national healthcare instead, they go to the NHC clinic, see their regular doctor (which they only HAVE because of NHC), who does basic testing for - wait for it - FLULIKE SYMPTOMS!

The bill is $100, not $5,000. Now multiply that scenario times however many million ER visits are not necessarily emergencies, and think of those who DO have emergencies who might not die because the ER is clogged with flu cases and hangnails, and you begin to see why what we have now is so inefficient.

Big Pharma and Big Medicine is raping us all, has been for decades. It's time to make them stop it, and go back to making a very good living, not plundering those who support it all, the working public.

[JakeYonkel]

I didn't claim you were scummy. You know what I'm talking about. Probably people like chick's friend she talks about all the time.

And yes, I won the lotto - but despite what people seem to think, it's not some huge lump sum. Really, it just equates to a decent yearly salary, which is nice. So we're not living large and I've never claimed to. I can afford to work from home and take care of my kid so I don't have to throw him in daycare and my wife already had her job for a few years and she was happy to keep working. I'm not better than any working stiff that posts here and never acted like it.

[lerxstcat]

I notice you didn't want to touch the rest of my post, dealing with why we shouldn't just leave it the way it is. Don't you have a response to that?

[JakeYonkel]

Sorry, dinner was on.

If what you're saying is in fact legitimate then I don't think it's that bad. But I'm surprised that what you're saying isn't being put out there by the media.

[tin00can]

While I understand the slippery slope arguments, and admit there may indeed be some merit to them - not much, but some - I'd like to challenge all the people who are against "universal healthcare" or a "public option" to have to work for six months in a medical job where they have to be the person telling people they can't get medical care. I wonder how much that would weigh on their souls?

It's easy to hold an opinion when you don't have to do the dirty work to enforce it.

[lerxstcat]

2/3 of doctors are greedy sunsofbitches too, who will SAY they'd consider quitting, but are not really likely to give up their slightly reduced gravy train.

I do agree that tort reform should also be a part of the overhaul too, and that if you have to participate in the government system because you can't afford the private insurance, you should have more limited recourse as well.

I have to acknowledge this since I get some meds from a charity organization. For example, a year ago they gave me a heart med that was recalled because the manufacturer had made the doses too strong. An overdose causes toxicity, nausea, vomiting... which happened to me.

But since I got the meds free, I can't participate in a class action suit - which, frankly, I find fair. They gave me the meds, which I need to live. They made a mistake in manufacturing. I don't feel the need or desire to get in on a feeding frenzy when they tried to help me out by donating the meds to the organization that gave them to me. Fair is fair.

Compromises have to be made on all sides to achieve a workable and fair, and affordable system.

[lerxstcat]

The ER is going to generate a bill in the thousands of dollars, testing for everything from flu to heart disease, to cover its ass liability-wise - which ultimately is passed on to taxpayers.

Unfortunately the same people that are pushing this reform bill through Congress are also the ones agasint tort reform that would limit this.

Well I agree that they need to come off of that position. Everybody in both parties are trying to protect their own fiefdoms while tearing the opposing party's down. Everybody has to give up something to reach an equitable compromise.

[tin00can]

While I understand the slippery slope arguments, and admit there may indeed be some merit to them - not much, but some - I'd like to challenge all the people who are against "universal healthcare" or a "public option" to have to work for six months in a medical job where they have to be the person telling people they can't get medical care. I wonder how much that would weigh on their souls?

It's easy to hold an opinion when you don't have to do the dirty work to enforce it.

From the horses mouth:

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysi ... ?id=506199

45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul
By TERRY JONES, INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY
Posted 09/15/2009 07:09 PM ET


View Enlarged Image


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IBD Exclusive Series:
Condition Critical: What Doctors Think About Health Reform
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Two of every three practicing physicians oppose the medical overhaul plan under consideration in Washington, and hundreds of thousands would think about shutting down their practices or retiring early if it were adopted, a new IBD/TIPP Poll has found.

The poll contradicts the claims of not only the White House, but also doctors' own lobby — the powerful American Medical Association — both of which suggest the medical profession is behind the proposed overhaul.

It also calls into question whether an overhaul is even doable; 72% of the doctors polled disagree with the administration's claim that the government can cover 47 million more people with better-quality care at lower cost.

The IBD/TIPP Poll was conducted by mail the past two weeks, with 1,376 practicing physicians chosen randomly throughout the country taking part. Responses are still coming in, and doctors' positions on related topics — including the impact of an overhaul on senior care, medical school applications and drug development — will be covered later in this series.

Major findings included:

• Two-thirds, or 65%, of doctors say they oppose the proposed government expansion plan. This contradicts the administration's claims that doctors are part of an "unprecedented coalition" supporting a medical overhaul.

What in the blue fuck does that have to do with what I posted?

[tin00can]

That was a poll of the those in question. You know, the actual people "who had medical jobs that had to tell patients they could not receive care..."

My questions was about the human toll of repeatedly telling sick people you can't help them. Your poll said a majority of doctors "may consider quitting or early retirement," a tenuous statement at best. Doctors usually aren't the ones who have to tell patients they have to go without treatment; that usually falls on the MAs.

[chickenona]

They jacked the costs up in September so we had to take a lesser plan or else half her paycheck would have been being taken for healthcare. So now we actually have pretty shitty coverage.

If this shit passes and people like us are offered some sort of subsidy to keep our private insurance and offset the cost, I'll be all over that shit. If everybody else gets to benefit and our taxes are paying for you bet I'll be benefiting from it as well.

Same here. When Ben & Jerry's was owned by the communist hippie scumbag bleeding-hearts, we had top-notch coverage for which we paid very, very little. Once the company got sold to Unilever the cost tripled. A full quarter of my old man's pre-tax income goes right to paying for our health insurance and it's nowhere near as good as the old plan. A lot of shit isn't covered at all, I threw my back out nearly a year ago and went to the emergency room on the advice of our regular doctor. The insurance didn't cover a red cent of that visit and we were out five hundred bucks out of pocket. My daughter had to have a bunch of gyno tests last spring that ALSO weren't covered, another five hundred bucks. So in addition to our yearly premiums, which total almost ten grand, we were out an ADDITIONAL thousand bucks for shit that wasn't covered - and that's not even touching our copays for regular visits (thirty bucks a whack at around six to eight GP visits per year, 35 for a specialist of any kind).

We DO get a pretty good break on medicines, but that doesn't make our out of pocket sting any less. We already have universal health care available in Vermont and we're seriously thinking of seeing what the numbers for that plan would be when open season rolls around. We're at the point where we feel like it couldn't possibly be any more expensive than what we already have. That's another advantage to a public option - a choice for sticker-shocked consumers.

PS "Scummy" is a relative term. If any of us had been through what my friend Paul has been through to get him to the point where he is, we'd probably be on drugs too. He recently got a large chunk of change from Social Security because it was determined that most of the medical and psychiatric problems he has now are the result of a childhood mental illness that went undiagnosed and untreated and was exacerbated by a VERY mentally ill, abusive mother. Preventative care in childhood would probably have made his whole life story 100% different.

[CliffByford]

Can I also add here that when I had a potential heart scare, the scans cost me zero. When I have had sexual health checks, the cost to me is zero. My trip to the emergency ward after I collapsed playing soccer was zero, as was the physiotherapy I received after fracturing my ankle.

Of course it wasn't really zero, as 11% comes out of my pay packet every month - but this also pays for my state pension later in life and any unemployment benefit I may stand to receive if such an event were to occur.

It's a myth that's popular to promote in America that a welfare state is created out of government throwing money at programmes without it being resourced or funded properly. In fact we all pay, and to a degree its done so progressively based on how much we can afford to pay. The system's not perfect by any means - but our combined spend on public and private healthcare is less than 8.5% of GDP, whilst in the USA it's in excess of 15%.

Jake, chickenona - it horrifies me to see that your plans don't even cover things that I would receive cover for as a matter of course, such as the back problem nona mentioned. Sure, I would be expected to pay for things such as IVF or cosmetic surgery, but getting seen for back pain? No chance.

Again, to the nay-sayers, I urge you to consider my arguments soberly and without swinging blindly from pre-designated political corners. I firmly believe that some kind of public option - and one not necessarily based on the British version, by the way - is the best of all possible worlds.

[chickenona]

Yeah, the ER copay in our plan is 75 bucks unless we're admitted to the hospital after the visit. I was (very perfunctorily) physically examined, given some happy pills and sent on my way, so I knew I'd have to cough up at least the 75. I think another 400 bucks just to have a physician touch my back, say, "Yeah, you've got some inflammation back there" and throw Soma and percocet at me is a little excessive, and after a year of fighting with my insurance provider I'm still not quite sure why there is no coverage for it.

Even more baffling is that my kid's gyno tests weren't covered, and I'm still fighting the provider on that. There's no reason why examinations and tests of that nature should not be covered.

[JakeYonkel]

On our new plan (which is still costing around $500 per month for BCBS, covering my wife, myself, and nearly 2 year old) we cover everything 100% out of pocket until the $2500 family deductible is met. How crazy is that shit? Now we get a $1000 reimbursement card so it's really more like $1500 deductible but regardless.

My kid needs to get in for well check-ups every 6 months. $80 a pop.

I had a health scare in October and needed to see a doc a few times. $200 per visit!

So it's basically January and more than half of our reimbursement card has been eaten up with ~9 months until we get a new one.

We're not hurting for money but I can understand ridiculous costs being a deterrent to seeing the doctor. I had a touch of the flu a few weeks ago and it wasn't worth the $200 visit to the doc.

God forbid we need an ER visit, I can't wait to see how that shakes out. I could probably get better coverage if I went directly to the insurance company myself and didn't go through her work plan.

Damn, maybe this thread IS changing my mind.

Also, we read that the gov't is considering a tax on elective plastic surgery procedures to help cover the cost of this stuff. Don't know if I like that.

[chickenona]

Yeah, a punitive tax on something deemed "unnecessary" but which often is crucial to a decent quality of life doesn't really seem fair. As it stands now most plans deem stuff like correction of a cleft palate to be unnecessary cosmetic surgery, because a cleft palate isn't life-threatening, but it does create a lower quality of life. I know a woman who's living with a chronic staph infection that could be eradicated if she could afford a tummy tuck. She's diabetic and her skin breaks down where a flap of excess flesh folds over on her stomach, causing the staph infection. Her provider won't shell out for a tummy tuck because it's "cosmetic", yet excess skin is causing an ongoing medical problem. There are too many gray areas in plastic surgery to simply dismiss it out of hand as "frivolous", and even if it is frivolous, it's already too expensive to justify an extra tax.

Still more taxes on cigarettes wouldn't bother me though. Maybe it could even persuade me to quit again.

[MadmanShepherd]

Then of course there are women who had their breasts removed due to cancer. A boob job would definitely boost their self confidence and improve their quality of life but would likely be deemed cosmetic which isn't really fair.

My old job had a plan decided on by the staff. The older members kinda made the younger members feel like crap for wanting a lower deductible, and monthly rate, instead of better prescription costs. I ended up not voting because I haven't been to the doctor in about 4+ years so it didn't effect me. It did show me how sad it is these insurance companies put us against each other

[chickenona]

That's "healthy market competition" for ya.

[Ugmo]

You know what's funny? There is no outcry against a public option. Nearly 80 percent of the public support it. But a handful of hard-liners scuttled it.

[pooldude]

I threw my back out nearly a year ago

Worshipping at the altar of liberalism each day will do that to a person.

A little back ache isn't nearly as distressing to the system as someone else's consistent verbatim regurgitation of the Sean Hannity rant du jeur.

[LadyJaneGrey]

It's definitely going to be interesting to see how that Employer Mandate Tax affects things at my library job, as while the city of Phoenix DOES offer health insurance, you either have to be full-time, or a part-timer in "Job Category X" and meet certain requirements.

[tin00can]

My questions was about the human toll of repeatedly telling sick people you can't help them. Your poll said a majority of doctors "may consider quitting or early retirement," a tenuous statement at best. Doctors usually aren't the ones who have to tell patients they have to go without treatment; that usually falls on the MAs.

Semantics.

So it's semantics when I reiterate my question (and yes, it was in the nature of a rhetorical question, but it still stands) which you didn't answer?

[chickenona]

I threw my back out nearly a year ago

Worshipping at the altar of liberalism each day will do that to a person.

A little back ache isn't nearly as distressing to the system as someone else's consistent verbatim regurgitation of the Sean Hannity rant du jeur.

A backache is probably more mentally stimulating than Hannity too.

At least Glenn Beck's obvious mental health problems and Rush Limbaugh's dope fiendery make them amusing in a trainwreck way. Hannity is just a blowhard.

[JakeYonkel]

Rush and Hannity are boring as fuck.

The only guy I've actually enjoyed listening to is Wilkow on Sirius.

[chickenona]

I seriously think Glenn Beck suffers from schizophrenia.