Metal Sludge Gossip Board

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/scien ... imate.html

The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said in 2007 — the same year it shared the Nobel Peace Prize with former Vice President Al Gore — that it was “very likely” that Himalayan glaciers would disappear by 2035 if current warming trends continued.

That date has been much quoted and a cause for enormous consternation, since hundreds of millions of people in Asia rely on ice and snow melt from these glaciers for their water supply.

The panel, the United Nations’ scientific advisory body on climate change, ranks its conclusions using a probability scale in which “very likely” means there is greater than 90 percent chance that an event will occur.

But it now appears that the estimate about Himalayan glacial melt was based on a decade-old interview of one climate scientist in a science magazine, The New Scientist, and that hard scientific evidence to support that figure is lacking. The scientist, Dr. Syed Hasnain, a glacier specialist with the government of the Indian state of Sikkim and currently a fellow at the TERI research institute in Delhi, said in an e-mail message that he was “misquoted” about the 2035 estimate in The New Scientist article. He has more recently said that his research suggests that only small glaciers could disappear entirely.

The panel, which relies on contributions from hundreds of scientists, is considering whether to amend the estimate or remove it.



So, now that the "TRUTH" is being shown to be "SHIT" when will people wake up and realize that it A)Isn't as bad as people are making it out to be, and B) just MIGHT be natural, and not 'man made'?

This is one of those issues where either you believe it or you don't.

Personally I think it's a crock of shit but I'm astute enough to know I won't change anybody's mind and nobody's going to change mine. You can get scientists on either side to state their case.

I think it's arrogant to suggest that man has that much of an effect on weather. It ebbs and flows in time. The planet is OLD. Shit happens. People are paying attention now, and in a few generations, or even 1000 years, it'll be heading the other way and some kooks will claim then that people are doing something to make it really really cold.

Just dumb all around.

VinnieKulick wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/19/scien ... imate.html

The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change said in 2007 — the same year it shared the Nobel Peace Prize with former Vice President Al Gore — that it was “very likely” that Himalayan glaciers would disappear by 2035 if current warming trends continued.

That date has been much quoted and a cause for enormous consternation, since hundreds of millions of people in Asia rely on ice and snow melt from these glaciers for their water supply.

The panel, the United Nations’ scientific advisory body on climate change, ranks its conclusions using a probability scale in which “very likely” means there is greater than 90 percent chance that an event will occur.

But it now appears that the estimate about Himalayan glacial melt was based on a decade-old interview of one climate scientist in a science magazine, The New Scientist, and that hard scientific evidence to support that figure is lacking. The scientist, Dr. Syed Hasnain, a glacier specialist with the government of the Indian state of Sikkim and currently a fellow at the TERI research institute in Delhi, said in an e-mail message that he was “misquoted” about the 2035 estimate in The New Scientist article. He has more recently said that his research suggests that only small glaciers could disappear entirely.

The panel, which relies on contributions from hundreds of scientists, is considering whether to amend the estimate or remove it.



So, now that the "TRUTH" is being shown to be "SHIT" when will people wake up and realize that it A)Isn't as bad as people are making it out to be, and B) just MIGHT be natural, and not 'man made'?

I really, really can't understand how you or anybody else care so much about whether it's true or not. Who the fuck cares? It's an opportunity to clean shit up, which is a wonderful thing. Unless you own a shitload of oil stock the conservative view on this one baffles the hell out of me. It's so obvious that big oil has it's hooks solidly implanted in the GOP and their platform reflects that. How can people be that naive?

I'm not at all opposed to respecting the planet.

However I'm sick of this "the sky is falling" bullshit and trying to make everybody feel guilty about it.

JakeYonkel wrote:I'm not at all opposed to respecting the planet.

However I'm sick of this "the sky is falling" bullshit and trying to make everybody feel guilty about it.

The only way that we as a society are going to change anything is if our backs are against the wall. That's just how shit works. Without the climate change scare, nobody would do a fucking thing except watch their wallets. With that in mind, I just don't get the hoopla. Fix the problem, use whatever propaganda you have to that gets it done and move forward with a cleaner world. It benefits everybody. The only people that benefit from the status quo are big oil. We all know who big oil owns. We all know who goes out of their way to debunk any climate change propaganda too. It's not that hard to connect the dots.

Do you realize how much Cap and Trade will cost people?

THATS a big reason to get to the TRUTH about the 'climate change'.

Solar activity mirrors temperature variations almost identically.

CO2 levels are less than they were in the Ice Age, but we think that high CO2 levels make the earth warmer.

Can we clean up the planet? Sure, here in America. But you know what, the USA is a whole lot cleaner than it was 20 years ago. So, we're already ahead of that curve. But I don't think the government should be telling me what kind of lightbulb to use, or what kind of car to drive, or anything else, in the name of STOPPING GLOBAL WARMING.


The best computer models show that if we did nothing, in a hundred years, the only tangible effect would be an overall net increase in temperatures that is less than one degree C. And all the "oh no, the ice caps are melting, we're going to flood" is bullshit too. Again, the best computer models show that at MOST the sea level raises less than one foot.
Care to guess how much the sea's raised in the past 150 years? About a foot. But, we've seemed perfectly able to cope with it, without knowing we were doing it. But now somehow, we can't figure out how to live with the sea level less than a foot higher? Please. Its the boogeyman sent to scare us into living "clean".

Again: IT"S NOT ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING!!!! I don't fucking care. The air is unbreathable. The water is undrinkable. This scare is making us take some real steps that will correct that. I don't give a shit about the fucking temperature. That's not even going into the foreign policy benefits that come from getting off of oil. It's so damn simple, but you guys get all hung up on finger pointing over who's telling the truth. I don't fucking care if it's truth or not. I don't want to have to hear "bad air quality" warnings on the news. I don't want to get any more letters from my MUD district telling me that I need to buy bottled water for my family because the aquifer has become so polluted that it's now unsafe for my family to drink without serious filtration. There is absolutely no doubt that we caused that shit.

bane wrote:Again: IT"S NOT ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING!!!! I don't fucking care. The air is unbreathable. The water is undrinkable. This scare is making us take some real steps that will correct that. I don't give a shit about the fucking temperature. That's not even going into the foreign policy benefits that come from getting off of oil. It's so damn simple, but you guys get all hung up on finger pointing over who's telling the truth. I don't fucking care if it's truth or not. I don't want to have to hear "bad air quality" warnings on the news. I don't want to get any more letters from my MUD district telling me that I need to buy bottled water for my family because the aquifer has become so polluted that it's now unsafe for my family to drink without serious filtration. There is absolutely no doubt that we caused that shit.

LIBERAL!!!

Perhaps where you are, that's true. It also depends on your water sources to determine how drinkable it is.

I went to texas a few years back, and the tap water made my throat itch, Everywhere I went. Even a fountain soda did, from the tap water.

But, here in Missouri, we have plentiful springs that have great drinking water, so I am not that concerned with that.

We get most of our water from either resevoirs or a big ass underground aquifer. I live at the very bottom of the flow, right on the coast, so everything that everybody North of me puts in the ground ends up in my water.

Crazy Levi wrote:
LIBERAL!!!

Heh. This shouldn't be a partisan issue IMO. The GOP stance on that one baffles me. The blatant whoring out to big oil pretty much turns my stomach, always has.

Alpine glaciers are demonstrably shrinking:



http://images.google.at/imgres?imgurl=h ... 0%26um%3D1

I don't know how anyone can claim the climate isn't warming. The one above in Glacier National Park is actually going to disappear ten years ahead of the originally predicted schedule. It's a damn shame someone used some faulty calculations for the Himalayas and someone else ran with them, but anyone who refuses to accept that the glaciers aren't melting as a result of global warming is just burying their head in the sand.

A glacier in the Peruvian Andes:



1980 (left) and 2002 (right)

VinnieKulick wrote:Perhaps where you are, that's true. It also depends on your water sources to determine how drinkable it is.

I went to texas a few years back, and the tap water made my throat itch, Everywhere I went. Even a fountain soda did, from the tap water.

But, here in Missouri, we have plentiful springs that have great drinking water, so I am not that concerned with that.

Well fuck, if things are OK in Missouri I guess the rest of the country has nothing to worry about.

Seriously, though...I'm kinda with Jake on this one. We need to do what we can WITHIN REASON to clean up the environment. And Bane has a point; unless there is a gun to the head we WON'T do anything.

There are two things that piss me off about the global warming debate. First are the doomcryers who say the planet will die in ten years. Second are the idiots who every time it snows say "where's your global warming now?" as if anecdotal snow means it doesn't exist, and then they don't say a thing during the heatwaves in the summer.

YourMomma wrote:Global temperatures have been trending downwards over the past ten years. Shhhh! Don't tell the warmers! They've had a really bad week as it is!

Believe me, I would be the first person to rejoice if global warming turns out to be a false alarm, but the long-term trend sure doesn't look that way. How do you explain the shrinking glacier pictures above?

For Europe, the crucial factor is the temperature in the middle of the North Atlantic Ocean. He said such ocean cycles - known as multi-decadal oscillations or MDOs - could account for up to half of the rise in global warming in recent years.

Professor Latif said: 'A significant share of the warming we saw from 1980 to 2000 and at earlier periods in the 20th century was due to these cycles - as much as 50 per cent.

So what was the other half due to - greenhouse gases? And if so, will the Earth then continue to warm at the same rate as between 1980 and 2000 once this cool spell is over?

As I said, I would be ecstatic if global warming proves to be a false alarm, but what we're looking at right now is decades and decades of warming (or for that matter more or less continuous warming since the advent of the industrial revolution) versus a few years of apparent stabilization and one abnormally cold winter.

Reading through that article, one thing that strikes me is even the guy who predicts a couple of decades of cooling doesn't appear to doubt the climate change theory.

*

bane wrote:*

* *

Hear, hear! I second that motion.

I just love it when there's something we can all agree on.

at quoting the Daily Mail in a debate.

VinnieKulick wrote:Perhaps where you are, that's true. It also depends on your water sources to determine how drinkable it is.

I went to texas a few years back, and the tap water made my throat itch, Everywhere I went. Even a fountain soda did, from the tap water.

But, here in Missouri, we have plentiful springs that have great drinking water, so I am not that concerned with that.

You're good, fuck the rest of the world......I totally get it now.

KneelandBobDylan wrote:

VinnieKulick wrote:Perhaps where you are, that's true. It also depends on your water sources to determine how drinkable it is.

I went to texas a few years back, and the tap water made my throat itch, Everywhere I went. Even a fountain soda did, from the tap water.

But, here in Missouri, we have plentiful springs that have great drinking water, so I am not that concerned with that.

You're good, fuck the rest of the world......I totally get it now.

Well, you know what, in PART, yes. Why should one area be taxed and have their electric bill quadruple because another part of the country has a shitty water supply?

And, I don't doubt that the overall temperature of the globe has risen SLIGHTLY over the past hundred years. I am doubting that it's caused by man, and that man can change it by using different energy sources.

How'd the ice age end? Was that man's fault? The earth IS going to warm and cool, sometimes to extremes. And, it was NEVER man's fault before, but now that governments can gain more control over peoples lives, and individuals stand to make money (how is Al Gore nearly a billionaire?) it's obvious that it's a scam.

"shitty wAter suply"? The only reason it's shitty us because all you upstream fucks shit in it. It's your trash, so hell yes you should share the financial burden.

VinnieKulick wrote: Why should one area be taxed and have their electric bill quadruple because another part of the country has a shitty water supply?

bane wrote:"shitty wAter suply"? The only reason it's shitty us because all you upstream fucks shit in it. It's your trash, so hell yes you should share the financial burden.

Watch out, Bane...that kind of socialist talk is liable to get Vinnie really worked up.

VinnieKulick wrote:

KneelandBobDylan wrote:

VinnieKulick wrote:Perhaps where you are, that's true. It also depends on your water sources to determine how drinkable it is.

I went to texas a few years back, and the tap water made my throat itch, Everywhere I went. Even a fountain soda did, from the tap water.

But, here in Missouri, we have plentiful springs that have great drinking water, so I am not that concerned with that.

You're good, fuck the rest of the world......I totally get it now.

Well, you know what, in PART, yes. Why should one area be taxed and have their electric bill quadruple because another part of the country has a shitty water supply?

And, I don't doubt that the overall temperature of the globe has risen SLIGHTLY over the past hundred years. I am doubting that it's caused by man, and that man can change it by using different energy sources.

How'd the ice age end? Was that man's fault? The earth IS going to warm and cool, sometimes to extremes. And, it was NEVER man's fault before, but now that governments can gain more control over peoples lives, and individuals stand to make money (how is Al Gore nearly a billionaire?) it's obvious that it's a scam.

You can pay quadruple to help others clean their water and air, or you can pay more than that when clean water becomes so scarce that the Feds seize Missouri's water to divide it out amongst the country, and you suddenly have a small fraction of the water you did - because Missouri doesn't have the clout to stop the Feds from doing it.

Ask the Mexicans in Baja what happened to the Colorado River there when the gringos in Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado decided they had dibs? The Colorado no longer makes it to the Gulf of California.

One way or another, you WILL pay, count on it.

But it's the WARMING that causes the COOLING! And uhh..it's the WARMING that causes the WARMING! Oh fuck it...let's change it to climate change. Everyone knows the climate never changed before humans. Al Gore said so.

Fact is that we haven't been applying the scientific method to tudying the planet for long enough to really know exactly how much effect we have on things. But 6 billion people farting methane into the atmosphere alone has to have some kind iof effect. And cleaning up our act as far as polluting the air and water is necessary no matter what.

We're gonna run out of fossil fuels pretty soon, relatively speaking. Better to hit the ground running with clean alternatives than to wait until we're out, or almost so. We don't need a world war over oil at this point in history.

There are just too many reasons to clean up and find better energy sources, and the only reason not to is corporate greed by those profiting from the status quo.

lerxstcat wrote:Fact is that we haven't been applying the scientific method to tudying the planet for long enough to really know exactly how much effect we have on things. But 6 billion people farting methane into the atmosphere alone has to have some kind iof effect. And cleaning up our act as far as polluting the air and water is necessary no matter what.

We're gonna run out of fossil fuels pretty soon, relatively speaking. Better to hit the ground running with clean alternatives than to wait until we're out, or almost so. We don't need a world war over oil at this point in history.

There are just too many reasons to clean up and find better energy sources, and the only reason not to is corporate greed by those profiting from the status quo.

I agree that we should all make an effort to clean things up, force companies to behave more responsibly and find cleaner fuels. I think everyone agrees on this. Its the over blown, false science, pants shitting spree led by that fat ass clown Gore and the like that will cost billions, hurt business, and cost millions of jobs that I have a problem with. If Al Gore is so concerned about the environment maybe he can give the jet a rest for a few months and live in a home that doesn't suck up 20x the average tax payers energy consumption. I hope a polar bear eats that douche bag.

ROADHEAD wrote:But it's the WARMING that causes the COOLING! And uhh..it's the WARMING that causes the WARMING! Oh fuck it...let's change it to climate change. Everyone knows the climate never changed before humans. Al Gore said so.

Changing the term to climate change is a good idea if it leads to less people saying "WHERES YOUR GLOBAL WARMING NOW?" every time the weather gets cold in the winter.

Ugmo wrote: Changing the term to climate change is a good idea if it leads to less people saying "WHERES YOUR GLOBAL WARMING NOW?" every time the weather gets cold in the winter.

It's not every time the weather gets cold, its when there are record low temperatures around the northern hemisphere during the past few years. It's when the "global warming conference" has to be cut short due to a blizzard.

Yes, the climate is changing. It has since the planet was created. Man wasn't around for the vast majority of the earth's existence, but we've had ice ages, that ended with no man made intervention.

Isn't it a bit naive and/or arrogant to think that the earth is totally controlled by man's actions?

According to NASA's website:
In total, average global temperatures have increased by about 0.8°C (1.5°F) since 1880.

Yep, less than one degree difference in 130 years.

Again, it's not that the climate is changing, it's the thought that it's man made, and can be reversed that I take issue with.