The role of prison: punishment, reform, or a little of both?

[tin00can]

This is something I've thought about quite often. What do you think is the role of prisons? Are they for punishment, reform, or some combination of both? If it is a combination, how much of each? How does the death penalty fit into your views?

Just curious to see what the opinions are.

[Ugmo]

I was having this very conversation about a week ago with a friend of mine, who is a defense lawyer in Greece. Seems like the American system is entirely about punishment, while the European system is entirely about rehabilitation. Somewhere there must be a happy medium, but I don't know where. It pisses me the hell off to read about some dude who gets caught for fiddling and killing a little kid.... only to read that he'd done the same thing 10 years earlier and was released from prison.

My stance is that if you commit pre-meditated murder, fuck rehabilitation. You took someone else's most valuable posession away from them that they will never get back, so you deserve to rot for the rest of your life in prison. If there are mitigating circumstances then rehabilitation might be an option.

I also think prison should not be for people who commit non-violent crimes (although admittedly, I haven't considered all the various scenarios here), and certainly not for drug possession without intent to sell.

[SkyDog112046]

Should be both and depends on the type of crime. In general reform the non-violent offenders and punish the violent ones. Then punish the habitual offenders who won't be reformed. And destroy the types of offenders that can't be reformed such as rapists, pedophiles, and serial killers.

[vlad]

I think it is more about punishment..and there is the money, as it the prison industry is big business. There is a vested interest in having a big chunk of our population incarcerated...of, that reminds me...aren't we the country with the highest percentage of our people in prison?

But the Old Testament eye for an eye thing is strong in this country. Remember, we rank below only China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, and Iraq and maybe another country, I'm going off memory, in our number of executions. Great company huh?

I do remember this, though...nearly half of all the executions in the US last year, took place in Texas. Oh and while we killed 54 or so, 9 men who were on Death Row were found to be innocent. Thankfully, this time they weren't executed first.


So...I'm leaning towards retribution, not redemption. Well. not me personally, that seems the national view.

Creating new monsters to be released out into the population is avery bad idea...reform, in whatever form it takes seems reasonable to me..if only for the sake of everyone else, if not for the prisoner.

[bane]

Seems to be that rehabilitation is a pipe dream. I don't know a whole lot about prison, never been in one thank God, but I've seen Oz. They have their resident Dr. Phils right? They don't seem to be doing a whole lot of good. The return rate is too high for that. You can make prison suck so bad that a convict never wants to go there again, but even that seems to be pretty hit and miss. I kind of view prison as rehabilitation the same way that I view forced rehab for a drug addiction. It almost never works. People don't clean up their act until they're ready to do it voluntarily. I don't know what the alternative is though. As to the death penalty: To borrow a phrase from ZVD- I'm for it in principle, but not in practice. In a perfect world, I think murderers should be executed, but, unfortunately, the system isn't perfect and the potential execution of even one innocent person is enough to shut the whole thing down IMO.

[MadmanShepherd]

For violent offenders it should be used solely to separate them from society since they are dangerous. If there is a potential they will be released, obviously you need to rehabilitate them by a use of counseling, work programs, and treating them humanely while still not giving them a life of luxury.

For non violent offenders, obviously rehabilitation is the only way to go considering they will be released back to the public in a year or ten years. For shit like check fraud and stuff, obviously they won't be kept that long yet they are still a big danger in non violent ways so they need treatment for their asshole condition.

I think a lot of medium and minimum security prisons already impliment this stuff. I know former governor George Ryan of Illinois is in one of those considering he is 70 something and will obviously never commit those crimes again. So basically he has a minimally comfortable room, that he is confined to only during evening hours, and does various jobs around the prison to occupy his time. They are also given more leniency with family visits.

When you get into punishment you risk making them more savage. Obviously working in the cafeteria or emptying garbage isn't an ideal job but they need to pull their weight in prison so as long as you don't treat them like shit and constantly remind them that they are fuckups and have no hope, I don't think there is much to constitute as "punishment" in prison.

[vlad]

Seems to be that rehabilitation is a pipe dream. I don't know a whole lot about prison, never been in one thank God, but I've seen Oz. They have their resident Dr. Phils right? They don't seem to be doing a whole lot of good. The return rate is too high for that. You can make prison suck so bad that a convict never wants to go there again, but even that seems to be pretty hit and miss. I kind of view prison as rehabilitation the same way that I view forced rehab for a drug addiction. It almost never works. People don't clean up their act until they're ready to do it voluntarily. I don't know what the alternative is though. As to the death penalty: To borrow a phrase from ZVD- I'm for it in principle, but not in practice. In a perfect world, I think murderers should be executed, but, unfortunately, the system isn't perfect and the potential execution of even one innocent person is enough to shut the whole thing down IMO.

You are right, for some....but I have seen what happens when draconian laws are applied (see Oregon's Measure 11)....a kid gets into a brawl at a party...his buddy gets a beer bottle cracked over his head the kid moves in to stop it with his skateboard, breaking the arm of the guy who broke the beer bottle over his friend's head...

The kid went to prison for 7 and a half years, his friend, who had the beer bottle broke over his head, got three....no parole. The others all backed the beer bottle dude....

Thing is, i know all these kid (or they were kids) they are all now in their 30s. It's pretty well known around town what happened and it split up friendships etc...the beer bottle breaker had to leave town because of it.

In the meantime, the kid, a white boy from hicksville Oregon sticks gets hooked up the European Brotherhood for protection..he came out a white gang member....

Another local boy, an honours student, went up for 5 years for a fist fight on the beach....

Don't get me started on the man who had a brain disorder that caused him to turn violent towards his wife on ONE occasion...he was taken a hospital in Seattle and he had half his head, literally half his head (brain and skull) taken away to save his life, and the fucking DA used measure 11 to try to send him up for life (because of things that happened 30 or 40 years before). Of course she waited till he had reconstructive surgery to try him so the jury wouldn't see just how bad it was...she managed to get him sent away for 18 months, during which time, he developed a staff infection in prison and they had to remove his fake skull..so now he's back to having half a head...thank god that bitch was kicked out of office...(don't get me started on that fucking cow, who I knew socially, she'd drive home drunk from parties and yet she built her chops on fighting drunk driving. That and charging people who lost half their heads due to a massive brain stroke. The judges hated her..and measure 11. She fucking scared me, after she got into office, because she was vindictive enough to target people who said "bad things" about her. Of which I was one. Good thing I am so lily pure...

So I do think that it is all about punishment (revenge)....and who has the most money or buds to back them up. Like the kid who pulled a hit and run killing, but daddy's money kept him from ever being charged....though years later he died by being hit by a truck while on his bike...karma, eh? I live in a very small town, maybe I see all the bullshit on a more intimate scale...knowing all the players.

The "War on Drugs" has done more damage to this country....don't get me started on that one. But it sure works out for the prison industry.

[bane]

Seems to be that rehabilitation is a pipe dream. I don't know a whole lot about prison, never been in one thank God, but I've seen Oz. They have their resident Dr. Phils right? They don't seem to be doing a whole lot of good. The return rate is too high for that. You can make prison suck so bad that a convict never wants to go there again, but even that seems to be pretty hit and miss. I kind of view prison as rehabilitation the same way that I view forced rehab for a drug addiction. It almost never works. People don't clean up their act until they're ready to do it voluntarily. I don't know what the alternative is though. As to the death penalty: To borrow a phrase from ZVD- I'm for it in principle, but not in practice. In a perfect world, I think murderers should be executed, but, unfortunately, the system isn't perfect and the potential execution of even one innocent person is enough to shut the whole thing down IMO.

You are right, for some....but I have seen what happens when draconian laws are applied (see Oregon's Measure 11)....a kid gets into a brawl at a party...his buddy gets a beer bottle cracked over his head the kid moves in to stop it with his skateboard, breaking the arm of the guy who broke the beer bottle over his friend's head...

The kid went to prison for 7 and a half years, his friend, who had the beer bottle broke over his head, got three....no parole. The others all backed the beer bottle dude....

Thing is, i know all these kid (or they were kids) they are all now in their 30s. It's pretty well known around town what happened and it split up friendships etc...the beer bottle breaker had to leave town because of it.

In the meantime, the kid, a white boy from hicksville Oregon sticks gets hooked up the European Brotherhood for protection..he came out a white gang member....

Another local boy, an honours student, went up for 5 years for a fist fight on the beach....

Don't get me started on the man who had a brain disorder that caused him to turn violent towards his wife on ONE occasion...he was taken a hospital in Seattle and he had half his head, literally half his head (brain and skull) taken away to save his life, and the fucking DA used measure 11 to try to send him up for life (because of things that happened 30 or 40 years before). Of course she waited till he had reconstructive surgery to try him so the jury wouldn't see just how bad it was...she managed to get him sent away for 18 months, during which time, he developed a staff infection in prison and they had to remove his fake skull..so now he's back to having half a head...thank god that bitch was kicked out of office...(don't get me started on that fucking cow, who I knew socially, she'd drive home drunk from parties and yet she built her chops on fighting drunk driving. That and charging people who lost half their heads due to a massive brain stroke. The judges hated her..and measure 11. She fucking scared me, after she got into office, because she was vindictive enough to target people who said "bad things" about her. Of which I was one. Good thing I am so lily pure...

So I do think that it is all about punishment (revenge)....and who has the most money or buds to back them up. Like the kid who pulled a hit and run killing, but daddy's money kept him from ever being charged....though years later he died by being hit by a truck while on his bike...karma, eh? I live in a very small town, maybe I see all the bullshit on a more intimate scale...knowing all the players.

The "War on Drugs" has done more damage to this country....don't get me started on that one. But it sure works out for the prison industry.

No disagreement from me there. Some of the sentencing is completely asinine, and the drug war is a cancer.

[Chevyman]

if they get released,let them move in with the liberals who feel sorry for them

[VinnieKulick]

Prison is for PUNISHMENT.

You have a person, who breaks the established law. The consequence of that is that he loses his freedom.

Be it for assault, white collar crimes, rape, or whatever, locking up people who break the law and are a menace to the people around them is the logical thing to do.

That being said, the prison system should be making more mental health professionals available to the inmates. My brother in law is a psychologist, and two of his college classmates are psychologists in the prison system, and are overwhelmed.

Personally, I'd move to more "supermax" type of prisons for EVERYBODY. Keep them locked in their cell for 23 hours a day. It eliminates the gang problem, violence, drug trade (most of it) and is safer for the staff.

[shadow]

Seems to be that rehabilitation is a pipe dream. I don't know a whole lot about prison, never been in one thank God, but I've seen Oz. They have their resident Dr. Phils right? They don't seem to be doing a whole lot of good. The return rate is too high for that. You can make prison suck so bad that a convict never wants to go there again, but even that seems to be pretty hit and miss. I kind of view prison as rehabilitation the same way that I view forced rehab for a drug addiction. It almost never works. People don't clean up their act until they're ready to do it voluntarily. I don't know what the alternative is though. As to the death penalty: To borrow a phrase from ZVD- I'm for it in principle, but not in practice. In a perfect world, I think murderers should be executed, but, unfortunately, the system isn't perfect and the potential execution of even one innocent person is enough to shut the whole thing down IMO.

This seems fairly close to my view except for the fact that while I'm very ambivelent about the death penalty, I can't bring myself to support it. As much as I might want some people to die for their offenses, I don't believe anyone should have the right to take a life, except in defense of some else's life.

[ChowderheadCheerleader]

Prison, outside of the most extreme cases (Repeat sex offenders, murders, Repeat offenders of violent crimes) should be about rehabilitation.

In America, that was what the intent is supposed to be right? I mean this IS AMERICA right?


If you continue to treat people like a criminal once they are released, they will continue being a criminal. Having a "permanent record" is one of the very same reasons these people wind up back in prison.

You go to prison for your first offense (say robbery). They train you on some technical degree or something like that (Construction, machine shop, etc.).

I met guys who went to truck driving school right out of prison, yet no one will hire them, so right back to prison they go for committing another crime. The local truck driving school teachers here say they see it every week.

You get out and you can't find a job because you have a record. No one will hire you. You have been "tattooed for life" with a record.

So what's the alternative? Go steal something or rob someone and get back into the old game to get some kind of money, hell ANY money in order to at least survive.

Not everyone who commits a crime is a "drugged out junkie" and others are just stupid kids who made stupid choices. Our prisons are full of the wrong people and the get put back in because we as a society don't give anyone a break. How very noble of America...

[tin00can]

The problem with that, CC, is that you are in essence rewarding people for bad behavior. There will be plenty of law-abiding citizens who would want that kind of training, but can't afford it or don't qualify for loans. Then, you turn around and give it to criminals.

It's a very complicated issue, and I don't know what the answer is.

[ChowderheadCheerleader]

The problem with that, CC, is that you are in essence rewarding people for bad behavior. There will be plenty of law-abiding citizens who would want that kind of training, but can't afford it or don't qualify for loans. Then, you turn around and give it to criminals.

It's a very complicated issue, and I don't know what the answer is.

I do have to agree with this entire statement as well. It is very complicated.

[VinnieKulick]

The fact that they continue to break the law, is their own decision. There are a ton of places that will hire ex cons. It's not the prison's fault that they continue to make bad decisions.

[bane]

The fact that they continue to break the law, is their own decision. There are a ton of places that will hire ex cons. It's not the prison's fault that they continue to make bad decisions.

That's not true. Sure, a con can get a job working at a car wash or a fast food joint, but it can be VERY difficult to get any kind of real job with a prison record. It's a big part of the reason for repeat offenders. A guy can make a living selling dope for example, or he can get a job at a car wash for minimum wage. That's a pretty tough choice. There is the risk of getting busted again against the reality of having to live like a pauper. If a guy has paid his debt to society, he's paid his debt to society. There shouldn't be this stigma hanging over his head the rest of his life.

[VinnieKulick]

Is it difficult to get a job with a record? YES. Does that mean it's okay to become a repeat offender? No.
I'm unemployed, so does that mean I should be expected to be a bank robber?

[bane]

Is it difficult to get a job with a record? YES. Does that mean it's okay to become a repeat offender? No.
I'm unemployed, so does that mean I should be expected to be a bank robber?

Of course not, but simply put, a little reform in that area may go a long way toward cutting down on repeat offenders. You're temporarily unemployed. Imagine being permanantly unemployable. I think, except for extreme cases, records should be sealed. It's ridiculous that a guy that went to jail for selling pot at 19 still has it hanging over his head when he's 50.