Metal Sludge Gossip Board

yeah, when you live at or below the poverty line and have some kids, you can easily be tax exempt with the standard deduction and the EIC for the kids.

WhiteHouseSubsAC wrote:yeah, when you live at or below the poverty line and have some kids, you can easily be tax exempt with the standard deduction and the EIC for the kids.

Who's fault is it you live below the poverty line, and what business do you have having kids if you do?

Nevermind wrote:

WhiteHouseSubsAC wrote:yeah, when you live at or below the poverty line and have some kids, you can easily be tax exempt with the standard deduction and the EIC for the kids.

Who's fault is it you live below the poverty line, and what business do you have having kids if you do?

No shit! Those poor people need a better work ethic, don't they?

Nevermind wrote:Who's fault is it you live below the poverty line, and what business do you have having kids if you do?

I don't know, you tell us.

Ugmo wrote:

Nevermind wrote:Who's fault is it you live below the poverty line, and what business do you have having kids if you do?

I don't know, you tell us.

You could take that finger in your avatar, point it back at you, and you'll have your answer.

tin00can wrote:

Nevermind wrote:

WhiteHouseSubsAC wrote:yeah, when you live at or below the poverty line and have some kids, you can easily be tax exempt with the standard deduction and the EIC for the kids.

Who's fault is it you live below the poverty line, and what business do you have having kids if you do?

No shit! Those poor people need a better work ethic, don't they?

Most poor people do, yes!

Nevermind wrote:

Ugmo wrote:

Nevermind wrote:Who's fault is it you live below the poverty line, and what business do you have having kids if you do?

I don't know, you tell us.

You could take that finger in your avatar, point it back at you, and you'll have your answer.

You're not very good at this.

Nevermind wrote:

tin00can wrote:

Nevermind wrote:
Who's fault is it you live below the poverty line, and what business do you have having kids if you do?

No shit! Those poor people need a better work ethic, don't they?

Most poor people do, yes!

Most is a pretty strong word.

However, there is a staggering amount of people who are guilty of laziness, particularly younger people who think the world should be handed to them and walk around with a mindset of "I shouldn't have to work two jobs".

No, you shouldn't. In a perfect world, there wouldn't be a need for "jobs" in the first place.

Alas, candyland is not real, so get off your ass, keep your mouth shut, and go get yours.

Or, be content being a clock puncher and whining about how unfair life is.

Those who work the least get the most benefit from government.

thejuggernaut wrote:However, there is a staggering amount of people who are guilty of laziness, particularly younger people who think the world should be handed to them and walk around with a mindset of "I shouldn't have to work two jobs".

And yet the number of people who complain constantly about shiftless poor people is even higher.

There was an interesting article in Spiegel yesterday about how Germany's middle class is increasingly disassociating itself from the poor and solidarizing with the wealthy - and all the while the gap between the wealthy and the middle class is growing.

I guess that isn't just the case in Germany, but on the Sludge War Board too.

Ugmo wrote:

thejuggernaut wrote:However, there is a staggering amount of people who are guilty of laziness, particularly younger people who think the world should be handed to them and walk around with a mindset of "I shouldn't have to work two jobs".

And yet the number of people who complain constantly about shiftless poor people is even higher.

There was an interesting article in Spiegel yesterday about how Germany's middle class is increasingly disassociating itself from the poor and solidarizing with the wealthy - and all the while the gap between the wealthy and the middle class is growing.

I guess that isn't just the case in Germany, but on the Sludge War Board too.

Good.

Light a candle.

I didn't owe any at filing this time and will be getting a small refund in a few weeks, but I certainly paid plenty in federal taxes for 2009. After deductions and after subtracting my refund I ended up paying close to $14k in federal and $4k in state taxes.

YourMomma wrote:Despite the fact that half of all Americans don't pay any federal income tax people still call for the other half to pay even more. How about those who don't, start paying SOMETHING before we start raising everyone elses taxes so that everyone is contributing and therefore has a stake in the game. Just an idea.

Why are you bitching at us? I'm pretty sure most of us pay federal income taxes.

I do.

Ugmo doesn't (at least not in the US), so we can bitch at him. He's big on the argument for spending everybody else's dough to help the little guy.

bane wrote:Ugmo doesn't (at least not in the US), so we can bitch at him. He's big on the argument for spending everybody else's dough to help the little guy.

That's probably what YourMomma is up to here, but let's be honest: I am for spending the wealthy's dough to help the little guy. I don't really get why people bitch about the poor when the SUPER RICH have seen their wealth absolutely skyrocket over the past few years. It doesn't make sense, and it means the system is broken. And then when cretins like YourMomma who very probably aren't anywhere near the income bracket that has benefited most from the system argue against anything being done to change it, then it's pretty obvious he's been brainwashed by those who make a lot more money than the rest of us.

And with all the money the government spends on useless shit, people get the most upset when it spends money on people who have the deck stacked against them? That's bullshit.

Meh. There's an argument against that whole "deck stacked against them" thing. There are an awful lot of people in this country that have been on the dole for generations. That has nothing to do with hard luck. Thats a way of life that's taught from birth. Its a cultural problem, but the people that are financing it have every right to bitch.

bane wrote:Meh. There's an argument against that whole "deck stacked against them" thing. There are an awful lot of people in this country that have been on the dole for generations. That has nothing to do with hard luck. Thats a way of life that's taught from birth. Its a cultural problem, but the people that are financing it have every right to bitch.

As soon as the same people start bitching about all the money spent on other shit as well (and don't just start bitching about e.g. defense spending until the Democrat takes office), then I'll take it seriously. This is an interesting poll, check it out:

http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/1001-welftbl.cfm

Table 16: Americans' Views Of The Two Largest Areas Of Federal Government Spending

Views of American Adults (from a list of six programs)


% selecting area as one of two of the largest areas of federal spending

Foreign aid 41%

Welfare 40%

Interest on the federal debt 40%

Defense 37% *
Social Security 14% *
Health 8%

In other words a lot less is spent on welfare than most people realize. And since that kind of thing - how many people are actually down on their luck and need welfare as a helping hand vs. how many people are just shiftless and want to game the system - is very difficult to quantify, it's pretty far down on my list of things to be pissed off about.

I think you have to see it with your own eyes to experience the resentment. When you're at a convenience store and you see some dude get into a 35 thousand dollar car with 3 grand worth of rims and an expensive stereo system that you can hear booming from a block away after watching him pay for a bunch of twinkies, a pack of cigars and a couple of bags of chips with his Lonestar card, it can start to get on your nerves.

I have no doubt that there are a lot of people who take advantage of government handouts to live a relatively comfortable life without lifting a finger for it. But is it a higher number than those who need welfare until they can get their feet back on the ground? I look at that as having to take the bad with the good.

Whereas when I see that the oil industry receives tens of billions in annual subsidies while Exxon is posting annual profits of 40 billion dollars, that honestly pisses me off a lot more. Or to give another example, if the U.S. withdraws from Iraq next year and defense spending isn't correspondingly reduced, that is really gonna make me mad. Those are the kind of government handouts I have very little patience for!

I don't even want to talk about taxes right now.... Writing the big fat check to the US Treasury always hurts for awhile. My bank account whimpers in the corner like a beat child.

But one thing that does need to be remembered....even those that don't pay income taxes still pay exactly the same amount in FICA taxes as everyone else (no exemptions)...except for income above a certain threshold (that is, people who make a buttload of money). Over 7 and half percent of a low income goes to the Fed...more if they have a small business or get a 1099 instead of a W-2.

And as long as those who have more money want cheap shit, they will need low income workers..who will not pay income taxes..because they don't make enough money..because Americans want cheap shit and services. You want them to pay taxes, then expect them to be paid more.

Unless of course you want to flip your own burgers or pick your own lettuce or clean your own public toilets...there will always be a need for people who do the scut work...capitalism depends on it.

Ugmo wrote:I have no doubt that there are a lot of people who take advantage of government handouts to live a relatively comfortable life without lifting a finger for it. But is it a higher number than those who need welfare until they can get their feet back on the ground? I look at that as having to take the bad with the good.

Whereas when I see that the oil industry receives tens of billions in annual subsidies while Exxon is posting annual profits of 40 billion dollars, that honestly pisses me off a lot more. Or to give another example, if the U.S. withdraws from Iraq next year and defense spending isn't correspondingly reduced, that is really gonna make me mad. Those are the kind of government handouts I have very little patience for!

Sure, but just because one thing sucks, that doesn't mean you can't bitch about the other one too. I'm certainly not disputing your claim that social welfare is a very small percentage of where our tax dollars go, but people are still gonna bitch about it when they see it abused, and rightfully so. People don't bitch about corporate welfare as much because most of them are blissfully unaware of it, or at most they have some Angry Againlike, fuzzy understanding of "Those evil corporations". The most uninformed Joe Sixpack in the world can still see the abuse of social welfare with his own eyes on a daily basis. There's also that whole racial tension and cultural difference thing to add fuel to that particular little fire.

bane wrote:

Ugmo wrote:I have no doubt that there are a lot of people who take advantage of government handouts to live a relatively comfortable life without lifting a finger for it. But is it a higher number than those who need welfare until they can get their feet back on the ground? I look at that as having to take the bad with the good.

Whereas when I see that the oil industry receives tens of billions in annual subsidies while Exxon is posting annual profits of 40 billion dollars, that honestly pisses me off a lot more. Or to give another example, if the U.S. withdraws from Iraq next year and defense spending isn't correspondingly reduced, that is really gonna make me mad. Those are the kind of government handouts I have very little patience for!

Sure, but just because one thing sucks, that doesn't mean you can't bitch about the other one too. I'm certainly not disputing your claim that social welfare is a very small percentage of where our tax dollars go, but people are still gonna bitch about it when they see it abused, and rightfully so. People don't bitch about corporate welfare as much because most of them are blissfully unaware of it, or at most they have some Angry Againlike, fuzzy understanding of "Those evil corporations". The most uninformed Joe Sixpack in the world can still see the abuse of social welfare with his own eyes on a daily basis. There's also that whole racial tension and cultural difference thing to add fuel to that particular little fire.

This is pretty much it. And I agree with the sentiment of where were these people when the deficit kept on adding up under Republican presidents? Why did they just start coming out of the woodwork now? That's what makes me wonder about the teabaggers. They can disown Bush all they want but if he or Cheney were still in office, my bet is, they'd be cool.

Hames Jetfield wrote:

bane wrote:

Ugmo wrote:I have no doubt that there are a lot of people who take advantage of government handouts to live a relatively comfortable life without lifting a finger for it. But is it a higher number than those who need welfare until they can get their feet back on the ground? I look at that as having to take the bad with the good.

Whereas when I see that the oil industry receives tens of billions in annual subsidies while Exxon is posting annual profits of 40 billion dollars, that honestly pisses me off a lot more. Or to give another example, if the U.S. withdraws from Iraq next year and defense spending isn't correspondingly reduced, that is really gonna make me mad. Those are the kind of government handouts I have very little patience for!

Sure, but just because one thing sucks, that doesn't mean you can't bitch about the other one too. I'm certainly not disputing your claim that social welfare is a very small percentage of where our tax dollars go, but people are still gonna bitch about it when they see it abused, and rightfully so. People don't bitch about corporate welfare as much because most of them are blissfully unaware of it, or at most they have some Angry Againlike, fuzzy understanding of "Those evil corporations". The most uninformed Joe Sixpack in the world can still see the abuse of social welfare with his own eyes on a daily basis. There's also that whole racial tension and cultural difference thing to add fuel to that particular little fire.

This is pretty much it. And I agree with the sentiment of where were these people when the deficit kept on adding up under Republican presidents? Why did they just start coming out of the woodwork now? That's what makes me wonder about the teabaggers. They can disown Bush all they want but if he or Cheney were still in office, my bet is, they'd be cool.

I thought Barack Obama was about "change"?

I understand both sides of this. Yes, it certainly pisses me off to see career welfare families, and I don't want taxes going to them. Welfare should be a temporary thing, not a way of life.

Again, where the problem comes in is enforcing this. In order to fix the system, don't we have to spend more money (i.e. hire more people to police and audit the welfare system)? Yes, it would be a short-term investment for long-term returns, but pretty much everybody is broke right now. Where does the money come from? Higher taxes? Service cuts?

I know there's no money out there, but if we're going to keep the current lifestyle standard for people on welfare then there needs to be more incentive to not be on welfare.

What I mean is, most of the welfare people are not going to get kickass well paying jobs even if they want to work. So they look at the situation and decide staying as they are is worth it to them. If the working poor got bigger breaks and incentive, then staying on welfare might be less worthwhile.

The only other alternative is to cut services to them. Forcing them to work. But we'll end up with genuine people suffering, kids suffering, people on the streets more than there are already.

I'm against wellfare but for free health care(not at this time though).

What you guys forget is that households in debt are as much to blame for this as the poor folks. In essence, stupid people who rely on the state.

bane wrote:I think you have to see it with your own eyes to experience the resentment. When you're at a convenience store and you see some dude get into a 35 thousand dollar car with 3 grand worth of rims and an expensive stereo system that you can hear booming from a block away after watching him pay for a bunch of twinkies, a pack of cigars and a couple of bags of chips with his Lonestar card, it can start to get on your nerves.

see plenty of those when I go into town,wanna key those cars so badly

I think there should be a tax credit for not having kids.

YourMomma wrote:

Ugmo wrote:
I am for spending the wealthy's dough to help the little guy.

Socialism. Redistribution of wealth. We know.

You believe redistribution of wealth should be a one way street.
That's why the biggest corporation on Earth, Walmart, is America's biggest welfare queen and you stand silent.
http://www.progress.org/2004/corpw37.htm
http://www.citizen.org/congress/welfare/index.cfm

Each year, U.S. taxpayers subsidize U.S. businesses to the tune of almost $125 billion, the equivalent of all the income tax paid by 60 million individuals and families. These corporations receive a wide range of favors: special corporate tax breaks; direct government subsidies to pay for advertising, research and training costs; and incentives to pursue overseas production and sales. While Congress institutes dramatic cuts in funding for traditional support programs for individuals and families, corporate giants continue to live off the dole. Each dollar spent on these "aid for dependent corporations" welfare programs means one dollar less for environmental programs, support for education, assistance to those in need, tax breaks for families, or deficit reduction. Public Citizen is helping to lead a major push to reduce corporate welfare.

Thats a helluva lotta cash, ain't it?
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8230
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/html/pa592/pa592index.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 08,00.html

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 4shiob.asp

YourMomma wrote: means the system is working. Capitalism promotes wealth and the opportunities to create it. I've never begrudged someone for making more money than myself. Good for them. They earned it and shouldn't have to give it to someone that didn't. Simple really.

It's not socialism when it's promoting business, I guess.

YourMomma wrote:Promoting business and proseperity in this country is a good thing. It's the system it is built on and has caused the U.S. to be a shining light for hundreds of years. You are correct. I am a capitalist, not a socialist. Business produces jobs. Jobs promote growth and family. Build from the bottom up. Not the top down.

The problem is, it seems on one side - yours - there is this mentality that big business can do no wrong and we should bend over for whatever they want. On the other side - Ugmo's - is a mentality that we should tax the fuck out of the rich. As usual the answer is somewhere in between.

Just remember that big businesses like Wal-Mart tend to drive small businesses - you know, the mom and pops that used to make up America - into the ground. Should we keep supporting that?