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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -euro.html

let germany and france bail them out.

I now see why the Three Musketeers were not British.

Obviously it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt coming from the Torygraph, but thanks Europe and in turn, thanks for signing the Lisbon Treaty Gordon.

Shit like this is why Gordon Brown should just step away slowly from the PM hotseat and let Cameron deal with the fallout.

Edit to add: Just a thought, why not raise taxes in Austria, a Eurozone country, and let Ugmo pay for it!

Austria is contributing up to 13 billion euros, which is a lot for a country of this size. Niggaz, if the euro were to fail, everyone would be up shit creek, INCLUDING the U.K., for whom the eurozone is the biggest trading partner. "Let someone else pay for it" is an incredibly naive mindset.

I say, let someone else pay for it!! Err.. kidding just having a go at Ugmo!

Actually, I think the whole EU should just be disbanded, it only benefits the countries that can't get their shit together, and sends the bill to those who can.

Switzerland is doing just fine.

British people already spend a ton going on holiday to Greece, Portugal and Spain. Now Britain is expected to help bail these fuckers out.

Anyways, seems like Britain isn't involved in the deal too much.

SmokingGun wrote:I say, let someone else pay for it!! Err.. kidding just having a go at Ugmo!

Actually, I think the whole EU should just be disbanded, it only benefits the countries that can't get their shit together, and sends the bill to those who can.

Switzerland is doing just fine.

Not true at all. The big E.U. countries have benefited tremendously from membership through expanded trade with each other.

Switzerland is not doing just fine. They are basically a member of the E.U. for all intents and purposes as it is, because when the E.U. says jump they ask how high.

MickeyG: so do the Germans, the Austrians, the Dutch and everyone else. This has nothing to do with that. This has to do with preventing hedge funds from fucking EVERYONE'S economy by betting against the euro.

Ugmo wrote:

SmokingGun wrote:I say, let someone else pay for it!! Err.. kidding just having a go at Ugmo!

Actually, I think the whole EU should just be disbanded, it only benefits the countries that can't get their shit together, and sends the bill to those who can.

Switzerland is doing just fine.

Not true at all. The big E.U. countries have benefited tremendously from membership through expanded trade with each other.

Switzerland is not doing just fine. They are basically a member of the E.U. for all intents and purposes as it is, because when the E.U. says jump they ask how high.

Before they joined the EU, most smart EU countries had a lot less debt than they do now, or even had before the GFC hit. It would have been fine for these countries to get together for mutual benefit. Their mistake was including countries that were not up to par with their superior neighbors.

They are now paying for that mistake. Not to mention loss of sovereignty, and local laws being made in some office by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. That is some really messed up shit.

Switzerland is doing fine, and they have the best of both worlds. They are basically members of the EU when it benefits them, but they retain enough sovereignty to say 'lets outlaw those ugly fucking minarets from being built in our civilized country' without fear of reprisals from said unelected EU bureaucrats.

Your hatred of the E.U. is hilarious. It's awesome to see you project your insecureties on other people in other countries.

Europe is a LOT better off with the E.U., fact.

Switzerland certainly doesn't have "the best of both worlds." Their power has diminished significantly with the ascendance of the E.U., and it won't be long before they will have to drop banking secrecy under pressure from the E.U. Eventually they will have to join the E.U., because they don't have oil like Norway.

Ugmo wrote:Your hatred of the E.U. is hilarious. It's awesome to see you project your insecureties on other people in other countries.

Europe is a LOT better off with the E.U., fact.

Switzerland certainly doesn't have "the best of both worlds." Their power has diminished significantly with the ascendance of the E.U., and it won't be long before they will have to drop banking secrecy under pressure from the E.U. Eventually they will have to join the E.U., because they don't have oil like Norway.

It sounds like you think being forced to join the EU is a good thing.

You say they have lost power since the EU was formed. I say they have retained power that the other EU states have lost. The key word being sovereignty, something that should never be given away, especially to unelected officials in another country.

SmokingGun wrote: It sounds like you think being forced to join the EU is a good thing.

He's in Austria, you know, that place where Hitler was from. Of course he wants a United Europe.

Just fuckin' with ya, Ugmo!

This is part of why the EU was formed, and the wealthy members like Britain, France and Germany knew going in that in tough times this would be what they would be called upon to do. That is, their rulers knew; I'm not surprised they didn't inform their citizens, as it would've been a hard sell.

If your neighbors are drowning, you can choose to pull them into the lifeboat or you can try and push them off. You may succeed in trying to push them off, or they may capsize YOUR boat if you try to shake them off.

Now you know how the USA has felt for the last 60 years with regards to the whole planet. Not that I begrudge that, but it is what it is.

SmokingGun wrote:It sounds like you think being forced to join the EU is a good thing.

You say they have lost power since the EU was formed. I say they have retained power that the other EU states have lost. The key word being sovereignty, something that should never be given away, especially to unelected officials in another country.

No, I don't care either way. They're not being forced to do anything, but I think the time is going to come where they realize it's worth their while. There are a lot of advantages to being in the E.U., whose countries enjoy just about the highest standard of living in the world.

As to your second point, I don't think you quite understand how the E.U. works. The whole minaret thing could happen anywhere in Europe, as that kind of thing is governed by national laws, not E.U. laws. Switzerland does control its own immigration though, unlike E.U. countries (that is, immigration from other E.U. countries). But again, this anti-foreigner thing is something you are projecting on Europeans. The most "unsavory" foreigners from a western European's perspective don't even come from other E.U. countries anyway, so they would have to apply to the individual countries for residency just like they would in Switzerland.

And for what it's worth, the U.K. can be damn sure the E.U. would come to its aid if it got into the kind of financial trouble Greece is in. That's what the E.U. is all about.

lerxstcat wrote:This is part of why the EU was formed, and the wealthy members like Britain, France and Germany knew going in that in tough times this would be what they would be called upon to do. That is, their rulers knew; I'm not surprised they didn't inform their citizens, as it would've been a hard sell.

If your neighbors are drowning, you can choose to pull them into the lifeboat or you can try and push them off. You may succeed in trying to push them off, or they may capsize YOUR boat if you try to shake them off.

Now you know how the USA has felt for the last 60 years with regards to the whole planet. Not that I begrudge that, but it is what it is.

I guess we'll all be footing the bill for California then.

MickeyG wrote:

lerxstcat wrote:This is part of why the EU was formed, and the wealthy members like Britain, France and Germany knew going in that in tough times this would be what they would be called upon to do. That is, their rulers knew; I'm not surprised they didn't inform their citizens, as it would've been a hard sell.

If your neighbors are drowning, you can choose to pull them into the lifeboat or you can try and push them off. You may succeed in trying to push them off, or they may capsize YOUR boat if you try to shake them off.

Now you know how the USA has felt for the last 60 years with regards to the whole planet. Not that I begrudge that, but it is what it is.

I guess we'll all be footing the bill for California then.

Hey, anyone who wants to contribute is welcome! California needs to amend its use of the peoposition system to force the initiatives and propositions to come under the state budget just like the laws its legislature enacts. Then at least the pain could be spread proportionately when times are hard, instead of 2/3 of the budget being out of the state legislature's hands.

Ultimately, California will bounce back. It has lots of resources.

The Germans have already announced that there will be no tax cuts for the foreseeable future. The EU is now a poverty, debt and high tax union - there will be no economic growth for years to come while they try and prop up the euro and the European disaster economy. Trying to keep this monstrosity alive will be throwing good money after bad. The EU experiment has failed and no good will ever come to anybody associated with it until that conclusion is accepted and acted upon.

SmokingGun wrote:The Germans have already announced that there will be no tax cuts for the foreseeable future. The EU is now a poverty, debt and high tax union - there will be no economic growth for years to come while they try and prop up the euro and the European disaster economy. Trying to keep this monstrosity alive will be throwing good money after bad. The EU experiment has failed and no good will ever come to anybody associated with it until that conclusion is accepted and acted upon.

When have the Germans EVER had low taxes? Seriously, do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Put it this way: Austria is contributing 13 billion to the bailout fund - which however would only have to be paid if the southern European countries were to go bankrupt. By contrast, if the eurozone were to break up, Austria would lose 40 billion euros worth of exports.

The eurozone is very positive for the export-based E.U. countries. In short, you do not know what you're talking about and it's hilarious to see you constantly vilifying the E.U.

Ugmo wrote:

SmokingGun wrote:The Germans have already announced that there will be no tax cuts for the foreseeable future. The EU is now a poverty, debt and high tax union - there will be no economic growth for years to come while they try and prop up the euro and the European disaster economy. Trying to keep this monstrosity alive will be throwing good money after bad. The EU experiment has failed and no good will ever come to anybody associated with it until that conclusion is accepted and acted upon.

When have the Germans EVER had low taxes? Seriously, do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Put it this way: Austria is contributing 13 billion to the bailout fund - which however would only have to be paid if the southern European countries were to go bankrupt. By contrast, if the eurozone were to break up, Austria would lose 40 billion euros worth of exports.

The eurozone is very positive for the export-based E.U. countries. In short, you do not know what you're talking about and it's hilarious to see you constantly vilifying the E.U.

Did I say Germany has had low taxes, ever? Please point me to the post where I said that, thanks in advance.

And you've just illustrated the problem with the EU.. complete reliance on certain sectors of the economy and other economies, to the point where it becomes like a house of cards and one push can make the whole thing fall to pieces. Only solution is to tax the people even more to pay for someone else's mistakes.

I think it's hilarious to see you defending the EU. It would be one thing if this was 2009, but with what's going on now you must be utterly blind and/or stupid to not see that the EU is a liability to the formerly autonomous, rich European countries such as Austria and Germany. Ghettos, mass immigration from people unwilling to assimilate, mountains of debt, local laws being passed in another country, overcrowding, complete reliance on specific sectors of the economy (otherwise known as putting all your eggs in one basket) ... do you really need any more examples?

This brings to mind Albert Jay Nock's line when, following the mess left by WWI, "Some of the more adventurous spirits, apparently under the effects of Mr. Wilson's inspiration, went so far as to propose educating all mankind into setting up a World State which should supersede the separatist nationalist State; on the principle, so it seemed, that if a spoonful of prussic acid will kill you, a bottleful is just what you need to do you a great deal of good."

In other words, they mucked things up royally as individual governments, why not solve the problems by rolling them into a unified one? Go, EU! Go, Ugmo! Statism will carry the day!

SmokingGun wrote:Did I say Germany has had low taxes, ever? Please point me to the post where I said that, thanks in advance.

You said "The Germans have already announced that there will be no tax cuts for the foreseeable future." Like that's unusual for Europe! This isn't indicative of anything.

SmokingGun wrote:And you've just illustrated the problem with the EU.. complete reliance on certain sectors of the economy and other economies, to the point where it becomes like a house of cards and one push can make the whole thing fall to pieces. Only solution is to tax the people even more to pay for someone else's mistakes.

What does this even mean? What sector of the economy is Austria completely relying on? Who is being taxed more? You're making all these allegations, you should be able to back them up. Please point out which country is raising taxes to pay for the preemptive bailout. The Greeks will be taxed more because they've been living beyong their means for years, but other than that.... fail. Globalization has created massive wealth for the first-world countries. That is the upside - the downside is we're more interdependent on each other. Would you prefer countries to be more isolated but poorer? I guess you would.

SmokingGun wrote:I think it's hilarious to see you defending the EU. It would be one thing if this was 2009, but with what's going on now you must be utterly blind and/or stupid to not see that the EU is a liability to the formerly autonomous, rich European countries such as Austria and Germany. Ghettos, mass immigration from people unwilling to assimilate, mountains of debt, local laws being passed in another country, overcrowding, complete reliance on specific sectors of the economy (otherwise known as putting all your eggs in one basket) ... do you really need any more examples?

Newsflash, we're in a global economic crisis. The U.S. is facing a major economic crisis and massive debt too. Are you calling the U.S. a failed experiment? Ghettos, mass immigration, mountains of debt... LOL. What country are you talking about, some place in Europe or EVERYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES???

"Local laws being passed in another country" - example please? You don't have one. Individual E.U. countries make their own laws. The only time the E.U. intervenes is when those laws discriminate against other E.U. citizens, such as restrictions at Austrian universities for German students.

"Complete reliance on specific sectors of the economy" - please explain what you mean by this, because at the moment it isn't making any sense.

Have you ever been here? It sounds like you have this weird idea of what Europe is judging by the nutty right-wing sources you get your information from.

Ugmo wrote:

SmokingGun wrote:Did I say Germany has had low taxes, ever? Please point me to the post where I said that, thanks in advance.

You said "The Germans have already announced that there will be no tax cuts for the foreseeable future." Like that's unusual for Europe! This isn't indicative of anything.

SmokingGun wrote:And you've just illustrated the problem with the EU.. complete reliance on certain sectors of the economy and other economies, to the point where it becomes like a house of cards and one push can make the whole thing fall to pieces. Only solution is to tax the people even more to pay for someone else's mistakes.

What does this even mean? What sector of the economy is Austria completely relying on? Who is being taxed more? You're making all these allegations, you should be able to back them up. Please point out which country is raising taxes to pay for the preemptive bailout. The Greeks will be taxed more because they've been living beyong their means for years, but other than that.... fail. Globalization has created massive wealth for the first-world countries. That is the upside - the downside is we're more interdependent on each other. Would you prefer countries to be more isolated but poorer? I guess you would.

SmokingGun wrote:I think it's hilarious to see you defending the EU. It would be one thing if this was 2009, but with what's going on now you must be utterly blind and/or stupid to not see that the EU is a liability to the formerly autonomous, rich European countries such as Austria and Germany. Ghettos, mass immigration from people unwilling to assimilate, mountains of debt, local laws being passed in another country, overcrowding, complete reliance on specific sectors of the economy (otherwise known as putting all your eggs in one basket) ... do you really need any more examples?

Newsflash, we're in a global economic crisis. The U.S. is facing a major economic crisis and massive debt too. Are you calling the U.S. a failed experiment? Ghettos, mass immigration, mountains of debt... LOL. What country are you talking about, some place in Europe or EVERYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES???

"Local laws being passed in another country" - example please? You don't have one. Individual E.U. countries make their own laws. The only time the E.U. intervenes is when those laws discriminate against other E.U. citizens, such as restrictions at Austrian universities for German students.

"Complete reliance on specific sectors of the economy" - please explain what you mean by this, because at the moment it isn't making any sense.

Have you ever been here? It sounds like you have this weird idea of what Europe is judging by the nutty right-wing sources you get your information from.

I'm not going to go running around finding news articles for you that prove what everybody with half a functioning brain already knows anyway.

You obviously have vested interests and I strongly suspect you are working for a government in some way. In other words, you are simply astroturfing.

And yes, I have been there. I've been here, there, and a few dozen other places and I know how the world works. Unlike you I don't get all my information solely from people or groups with vested interests. I assimilate and gather information from multiple sources, covering large spectrums of diverse societies, from the very poor to the very rich.

You are like a teacher, who couldn't get a real job in the real world if his life depended on it. Heavy on theory and rhetoric, but utterly useless when it comes to reality.

"Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach."

Coincidentally I just logged onto Spiegel and found this article:

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/sozial ... 53,00.html

Here's a translation of the first paragraph:

Europe is spending billions to fight the debt crisis - yet the Euro countries' financial problems are practically harmless compared to the situation in the United States. America's national debt has piled up to nearly 13 trillion dollars. If it is not reduced soon, economic collapse looms.

.... and a little further down:

Unlike Europe, which is now hitting the brakes hard and introducing radical spending cuts, the United States is steering toward the cliff. The reasons are manifold. Debt is a way of life in America, which is why there is no moral hurdle. The country has been indebted since its founding: by 1791 the United States already had 75.5 million dollars of debt. Only once - in 1835 under President Andrew Jackson - did the national debt fall to nearly zero. Two years later the United States skidded into another economic crisis, and the money floodgates promptly opened up again.


The point being Europe is in much better shape financially than the U.S., which is why it's so hilarious to see you proclaim gloom and doom for the E.U.

(For the record, the article has plenty of blame for Obama too.)

SmokingGun wrote:I'm not going to go running around finding news articles for you that prove what everybody with half a functioning brain already knows anyway.

You obviously have vested interests and I strongly suspect you are working for a government in some way. In other words, you are simply astroturfing.

You would do well to go running around finding news articles and read them yourself, because you are woefully misinformed about the economic situation in Europe.

Nope, I am self-employed and work for the pharmaceutical industry. The only vested interest I have is that I've been living in the E.U. for the past 12 years and have witnessed for myself how beneficial it has been to most of Europe. Sure it isn't perfect, but what country is?

I was reading CNN yesterday and they were all about Europe being in turmoil financially, doom and gloom, shit hitting the fan, etc., etc. Portugal and Spain are next, etc., etc. Are they just trying to fool Americans into thinking things aren't as bad here as they are in Europe, just because "their guy" is in the Oval Office?

Who is to be believed in this time of crisis?

MickeyG wrote:I was reading CNN yesterday and they were all about Europe being in turmoil financially, doom and gloom, shit hitting the fan, etc., etc. Portugal and Spain are next, etc., etc. Are they just trying to fool Americans into thinking things aren't as bad here as they are in Europe, just because "their guy" is in the Oval Office?

Who is to be believed in this time of crisis?

Come on dude, Obama isn't "CNN's man", if that's what you mean. I think it's more like the U.S. is so used to having a massive national debt that people don't even think about it much. Like the Spiegel article says, the "moral hurdle" was passed a long time ago, so people don't react as hysterically.

Ugmo wrote:

MickeyG wrote:I was reading CNN yesterday and they were all about Europe being in turmoil financially, doom and gloom, shit hitting the fan, etc., etc. Portugal and Spain are next, etc., etc. Are they just trying to fool Americans into thinking things aren't as bad here as they are in Europe, just because "their guy" is in the Oval Office?

Who is to be believed in this time of crisis?

Come on dude, Obama isn't "CNN's man", if that's what you mean. I think it's more like the U.S. is so used to having a massive national debt that people don't even think about it much. Like the Spiegel article says, the "moral hurdle" was passed a long time ago, so people don't react as hysterically.

He may not be "CNN's Man" specifically, in that any Democrat would be "CNN's person".

However, he is on "CNN's team" thus he is "CNN's guy" for now.

I'm always perplexed as to why idiots like SmokingGun trumpet tax cuts as the alpha and omega of high livin'. Countries like Sweden have a high taxation rate, all told - but also one of the highest standards of living in the world.

Of course, you could always subscribe to that genius of economics, George W. Bush, who was the first POTUS ever to introduce a tax break when his country went to war. Attaboy!

CliffByford wrote:I'm always perplexed as to why idiots like SmokingGun trumpet tax cuts as the alpha and omega of high livin'. Countries like Sweden have a high taxation rate, all told - but also one of the highest standards of living in the world.

Of course, you could always subscribe to that genius of economics, George W. Bush, who was the first POTUS ever to introduce a tax break when his country went to war. Attaboy!

thejuggernaut wrote:

Ugmo wrote: Come on dude, Obama isn't "CNN's man", if that's what you mean. I think it's more like the U.S. is so used to having a massive national debt that people don't even think about it much. Like the Spiegel article says, the "moral hurdle" was passed a long time ago, so people don't react as hysterically.

He may not be "CNN's Man" specifically, in that any Democrat would be "CNN's person".

However, he is on "CNN's team" thus he is "CNN's guy" for now.

Yeah, that's what I meant, I think. I'm not against CNN for being liberal, I mean fuck, I listen to Faux News in a morning on the way to work and those motherfuckers are so conservative I don't know how O'Reilly can keep a straight face while saying "fair and balanced."