House votes to continue war. War board liberals silent.

[Nevermind]

Go figure.

The House just approved a $59 billion bill to continue war funding, and increase spending on operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan, by a comfortable 308-114 vote.
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggl ... -vote.html

I figured I'd pop in here to see the outrage towards Obama , and just as I figured, not a single post from the liberals about it.
Obummer's wars continue.

[SmokeyRamone]

all while almost 9 billion dollars can't be accounted for

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100727/pl ... 0727215341

WASHINGTON (AFP) – The Pentagon cannot properly account for nearly nine billion dollars in Iraqi oil revenues and other funds received for reconstruction programs after the 2003 US invasion, a US audit found Tuesday.

"The breakdown in controls left the funds vulnerable to inappropriate uses and undetected loss," the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction said in a report.

The Pentagon received 9.1 billion dollars in 2004 from the fund set up by the US-led occupation authority to benefit Iraqis with Iraqi oil and gas revenues and assets seized from the ousted regime of Saddam Hussein.

But the audit found the Pentagon cannot properly account for 8.7 billion dollars because defense agencies that received the money failed to set up required Treasury accounts and no single organization was created to manage the funds.

The audit found that "weaknesses" in the Department of Defense (DOD) financial and management controls meant it could not account properly for the funds.

"This situation occurred because most DoD organizations receiving DFI (Development Fund for Iraq) funds did not establish the required Department of the Treasury accounts and no DoD organization was designated as the executive agent for managing the use of DFI funds," the report explained.

Separately "our selective review shows the records were not always complete. For example, (the Pentagon) could not provide documentation to substantiate how it spent 2.6 billion dollars," the report added.

The US Army Corps of Engineering and the US Central Command disputed the finding, the report said.

The Central Command said documents that could account for the missing money were "likely" deposited at a US base but retrieving it "would require significant archival retrieval efforts."

The Army Corps of Engineering said it had provided auditors with two billion dollars of the funds.

However, the Office of the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction recommended that Defense Secretary Robert Gates should specify procedures for future accounting all non-government funds made available for such operations.
___________________

[tin00can]

I don't start threads too often, I generally just respond to them. As for this, I'm pissed about it. I didn't vote for Obama but I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt as much as I can, and I'll still defend him from the stupid stuff people throw out (he had a separate plane for his dog, OMFG!).

However...it is his war now and it was from the moment he took office. We haven't seen any deescalation yet and I don't expect to next year, either.

Fucking Obama.

[Crazy Levi]

Awesome.

Why do you hate America?

This war rules.

[bane]

Awesome.

Why do you hate America?

This war rules.

Hypocracy (or is that sarcasm?) abounds!

[vlad]

First off....I haven't been posting because there's someone here that has some code stuff that slows my comp way down, it's too annoying.

Secondly, not all liberals opposed the Afghanistan War, sorry, it's true. I didn't even when Bush was leading the country. He of course invaded and then turned his attention elsewhere for fucking years....allowing it to fester. Being a liberal does not mean one is automatically anti-war, just hopefully anti-stupid war.

I am conflicted, but for all the screeching about Iran, it is in the mountains of Afghanistan and western Pakistan that some nasty stuff is still going on. Stuff that more directly endangers us.

I would be a huge hypocrite now if I suddenly started opposing the war in Afghanistan. My boy is going into the Marines, he knows what's up and the possibilities, including being sent to Afghanistan. My maternal side says "get out now!!!!!!", but I can't do i t honestly. I hope that the steps taken help end it. Without repeating what happened after the Russians left, that is, ignoring the place basically until we got that rude, rude awakening some 9 years ago. I honestly believe if the Nato forces left now, mainly us of course, the sickness that is AQ and it's pals would spread into Pakistan and destabilise a government that already has nukes. Wouldn't that be just awesome, radical crazy people with nukes? With a country next door that also has nukes pointed at country number one.

Obama isn't a knight in shining armour, he does things I'm not pleased about. However, when I think of the alternative I know I voted for the right person. McCain and the crazy bitch Palin....you think that Obama is escalating, imagine, honestly, what McCain and company would have done.

As for the 9 billion missing, this is news to you? That's been known for years. Pallets of billions worth of cash up and vanished. If some folks are just hearing about it now, they weren't paying attention 5 (well, three and half, anyway )years ago.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feat ... ions200710


So..don't take my "silence" as being embarrassed or something, just annoyed at the minutes it takes to load Sludge pages if certain people have posted. Who has the time?

[Drunk Kennedy]

is it sig pix that are slowing the load time down? if so...u can disable that!

[vlad]

is it sig pix that are slowing the load time down? if so...u can disable that!

I don't know...it probably is something like that. I'll check that out now.

Yes, it seems that that or the flash was the problem. Obviously I have never checked out my user control panel much.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

Go figure.

The House just approved a $59 billion bill to continue war funding, and increase spending on operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan, by a comfortable 308-114 vote.
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggl ... -vote.html

I figured I'd pop in here to see the outrage towards Obama , and just as I figured, not a single post from the liberals about it.
Obummer's wars continue.

So, we shouldn't support the troops anymore? Traitor.

I've had no real problem with the invasion of Afghanistan. Their former governmental authority, the Taliban, was complicit in an attack on the US. It was tantamount to an act of war and it was necessary to take action. Iraq, that's a totally different story. Had we not been distracted by a war there, we could have done a better job in Afghanistan and maybe not be spending this money now. It is sad you are unable to understand this.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

I've had no real problem with the invasion of Afghanistan. Their former governmental authority, the Taliban, was complicit in an attack on the US.

So were Pakistan and Syria, as well as factions in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Lebanon, and Yemen. None of the hijackers were Afghans and they were funded by many more groups than just the Taliban.

It was tantamount to an act of war and it was necessary to take action.

Nations commit acts of war. The 9/11 hijackers were not members of the Afghan military nor were they in the employ of the Taliban government. Nor were they Afghans. Their actions were funded by a loose network of like-minded countries, organizations and individuals. Action did need to be taken, but not actions that has cost the US trillions of tax dollars, almost 5,000 American deaths, and thousands of Afghan civilian deaths.

The action that was taken was a knee-jerk response, with little justification, investigation, or forethought to the consequences.

Iraq, that's a totally different story. Had we not been distracted by a war there, we could have done a better job in Afghanistan and maybe not be spending this money now.

Nothing would be different. We would still be over there attempting to nation build a country we destroyed. A country that, as the Soviets learned 20 years ago, will not stop fighting foreign occupiers and will never surrender.

So since there is no justification for invading Afghanistan, no progress made in stabilizing the country in almost 10 years of occupation, no exit strategy, no plans for withdrawal, and no justification for remaining there, where exactly does the "good idea" come into play?

[bane]

I've had no real problem with the invasion of Afghanistan. Their former governmental authority, the Taliban, was complicit in an attack on the US.

So were Pakistan and Syria, as well as factions in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Lebanon, and Yemen. None of the hijackers were Afghans and they were funded by many more groups than just the Taliban.

It was tantamount to an act of war and it was necessary to take action.

Nations commit acts of war. The 9/11 hijackers were not members of the Afghan military nor were they in the employ of the Taliban government. Nor were they Afghans. Their actions were funded by a loose network of like-minded countries, organizations and individuals. Action did need to be taken, but not actions that has cost the US trillions of tax dollars, almost 5,000 American deaths, and thousands of Afghan civilian deaths.

The action that was taken was a knee-jerk response, with little justification, investigation, or forethought to the consequences.

Iraq, that's a totally different story. Had we not been distracted by a war there, we could have done a better job in Afghanistan and maybe not be spending this money now.

Nothing would be different. We would still be over there attempting to nation build a country we destroyed. A country that, as the Soviets learned 20 years ago, will not stop fighting foreign occupiers and will never surrender.

So since there is no justification for invading Afghanistan, no progress made in stabilizing the country in almost 10 years of occupation, no exit strategy, no plans for withdrawal, and no justification for remaining there, where exactly does the "good idea" come into play?

Very well said, albeit with the benefit of hindsight goggles. I would argue that the mood of the country post 9/11 necessitated some kind of action. Terrorism is a tricky enemy. We can't defeat it with our vast military capability, but, in the early months post 9/11 a military invasion of somebody had to happen if nothing more than as a salve to the public psyche. Afghanistan was the target that was chosen, most likely due to political constraints. It isn't exactly politically expedient to invade Saudi Arabia. All that said, it's time to leave. It's untenable. Nation building doesn't work. We need to accept the fact that we will be vilified by those people and accept that future generations will continue to attack us using terrorist tactics. When that happens, we will retaliate by bombing the fuck out of anyone we can find. In the meantime we need to pump as many resources as possible into counter terrorism intelligence and espionage and attack the problem that way. Spending countless billions on an a war we can't win and throwing away the lives of American soldiers on the same war isn't the way to go.

[Nevermind]

Go figure.

The House just approved a $59 billion bill to continue war funding, and increase spending on operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan, by a comfortable 308-114 vote.
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggl ... -vote.html

I figured I'd pop in here to see the outrage towards Obama , and just as I figured, not a single post from the liberals about it.
Obummer's wars continue.

So, we shouldn't support the troops anymore? Traitor.

I've had no real problem with the invasion of Afghanistan. Their former governmental authority, the Taliban, was complicit in an attack on the US. It was tantamount to an act of war and it was necessary to take action. Iraq, that's a totally different story. Had we not been distracted by a war there, we could have done a better job in Afghanistan and maybe not be spending this money now. It is sad you are unable to understand this.

I'm sorry that YOU don't understand that it has been YOUR party who's members have voted against giving the troops what they need to win wars. There are enough democrats who understand that it would be political suicide not to fund the troops. so the bills always manage to get by.
It was YOUR party who's asses were always bleeding crying about Bush's wars etc....
Now that King Obama rules, your crying has stopped. That was the only point of my post.

[vlad]

nevermind..you are such a twat, really you are.

I'll whine about the utter stupidity of the Iraq War till the cows come home or Dick Cheney crawls on his belly to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier pleading for forgiveness then ritually disembowling himself. It was one of the most stupid and pointless endeavors in recent American history. Anyone who supported that invasion should hang their heads in utter shame. Seriously. It has poisoned the well for this country for years to come (not to mention the million or so Iraqi's dead and the millions still in exile or internally displaced). And I and others fucking told "you" so for years, including before the invasion happened....so fuck off.

And if you had been around here for a long time you would see that many liberals have supported the Afghan war, from the beginning. As for supporting the troops, I think if you look at the record from the GOP led congress you won't find too much actual, you know, supportin' went on. Supporting the Troops (trademarked) was a political weapon used, in words only to flog the Democrats over Vietnam (with a unhealthy dose of revisionism there). When it came to actually helping actual live troops, from McCain on down, they begrudged every fucking nickel.

I do find it funny that now that there is a Democrat in office, this war is now a clusterfuck and it must be stopped pronto. Because war is bad and stuff....now. I'll stand by our not leaving Afghanistan in some form because I watched what happened the first time. I do not wish to see a repeat. American dumbassery got us into that decades ago, including Carter and Reagan both. So to walk out AGAIN is at our own peril. I hate, hate the drone bombing and the persistent shooting up of Afghan wedding parties. And the Gitmo at Bagram. But we and other countries should pour money and technology into the country. We helped bomb it back to the stone age, beginning 30 some years ago (before the Taliban when we used them to proxy the USSR, then we washed our hands of them, a ginormous mistake), Russia, the UK, France, Germany, etc...by the way, Turkey does want to be more of a presence in the rebuilding, which I think is a great idea

Heh, the husband and I were watching one of the Bond films the other day, one with Timothy Dalton in Afghanistan. I don't remember the name. Bond hooks up with a mujahadeen "freedom fighter"...and the hub looks at me and laughs. "That was before we called them taliban"...

It was a little window in time, when the Russians were still the bad guys and the warlords and crazy religious freaks of Afghanistan were our "good guys".

I'm not looking to score political points on this...I just want it done right so my kid doesn't spend the next 8 years in some fucking redux. I don't buy the term "war on terror"....it's a bogus propaganda term. But I do see a war against a specific area that harbours the motherfuckers that blew up WTC and poison minds in the region. To ignore the unstable Pakistan and it's nukes....meh.

[Hames Jetfield]

nevermind..you are such a twat, really you are.

I'll whine about the utter stupidity of the Iraq War till the cows come home or Dick Cheney crawls on his belly to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier pleading for forgiveness then ritually disembowling himself. It was one of the most stupid and pointless endeavors in recent American history. Anyone who supported that invasion should hang their heads in utter shame. Seriously. It has poisoned the well for this country for years to come (not to mention the million or so Iraqi's dead and the millions still in exile or internally displaced). And I and others fucking told "you" so for years, including before the invasion happened....so fuck off.

And if you had been around here for a long time you would see that many liberals have supported the Afghan war, from the beginning. As for supporting the troops, I think if you look at the record from the GOP led congress you won't find too much actual, you know, supportin' went on. Supporting the Troops (trademarked) was a political weapon used, in words only to flog the Democrats over Vietnam (with a unhealthy dose of revisionism there). When it came to actually helping actual live troops, from McCain on down, they begrudged every fucking nickel.

I do find it funny that now that there is a Democrat in office, this war is now a clusterfuck and it must be stopped pronto. Because war is bad and stuff....now. I'll stand by our not leaving Afghanistan in some form because I watched what happened the first time. I do not wish to see a repeat. American dumbassery got us into that decades ago, including Carter and Reagan both. So to walk out AGAIN is at our own peril. I hate, hate the drone bombing and the persistent shooting up of Afghan wedding parties. And the Gitmo at Bagram. But we and other countries should pour money and technology into the country. We helped bomb it back to the stone age, beginning 30 some years ago (before the Taliban when we used them to proxy the USSR, then we washed our hands of them, a ginormous mistake), Russia, the UK, France, Germany, etc...by the way, Turkey does want to be more of a presence in the rebuilding, which I think is a great idea

Heh, the husband and I were watching one of the Bond films the other day, one with Timothy Dalton in Afghanistan. I don't remember the name. Bond hooks up with a mujahadeen "freedom fighter"...and the hub looks at me and laughs. "That was before we called them taliban"...

It was a little window in time, when the Russians were still the bad guys and the warlords and crazy religious freaks of Afghanistan were our "good guys".

I'm not looking to score political points on this...I just want it done right so my kid doesn't spend the next 8 years in some fucking redux. I don't buy the term "war on terror"....it's a bogus propaganda term. But I do see a war against a specific area that harbours the motherfuckers that blew up WTC and poison minds in the region. To ignore the unstable Pakistan and it's nukes....meh.

I know a great restaurant in Karachi.

[vlad]

I'd like to go to Karachi, though my interest is more to the north in the Punjab and back west. Though the entire length of the Indus is of interest to me....then the Makran coast.

Shit, it's so frustrating, my big fantasy trip is to follow the trail of Alexander from the Danube to the Beas. Sadly, most of it is either involved in one conflict or another . Kyrgyzstan, for fuck's sake, even Kyrgyzstan.

And the Swat valley. friends went there years ago and said how lovely it is and how nice the people are (were)? I can't imagine how awful it's been since the Taliban wrecked the place.

[Hames Jetfield]

I'd like to go to Karachi, though my interest is more to the north in the Punjab and back west. Though the entire length of the Indus is of interest to me....then the Makran coast.

Shit, it's so frustrating, my big fantasy trip is to follow the trail of Alexander from the Danube to the Beas. Sadly, most of it is either involved in one conflict or another . Kyrgyzstan, for fuck's sake, even Kyrgyzstan.

And the Swat valley. friends went there years ago and said how lovely it is and how nice the people are (were)? I can't imagine how awful it's been since the Taliban wrecked the place.

I was just quoting from that same Bond movie you mentioned above. But I think the closest I'd get to the Pakistan region is India and probably not Northern India, though I'd love to visit Kashmir.

[bane]

Vlad, do you see the situation being much different 8 years from now? Didn't we learn anything from the Soviets?

[Nevermind]

nevermind..you are such a twat, really you are.

I'll whine about the utter stupidity of the Iraq War till the cows come home or Dick Cheney crawls on his belly to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier pleading for forgiveness then ritually disembowling himself. It was one of the most stupid and pointless endeavors in recent American history. Anyone who supported that invasion should hang their heads in utter shame. Seriously. It has poisoned the well for this country for years to come (not to mention the million or so Iraqi's dead and the millions still in exile or internally displaced). And I and others fucking told "you" so for years, including before the invasion happened....so fuck off.

And if you had been around here for a long time you would see that many liberals have supported the Afghan war, from the beginning. As for supporting the troops, I think if you look at the record from the GOP led congress you won't find too much actual, you know, supportin' went on. Supporting the Troops (trademarked) was a political weapon used, in words only to flog the Democrats over Vietnam (with a unhealthy dose of revisionism there). When it came to actually helping actual live troops, from McCain on down, they begrudged every fucking nickel.

I do find it funny that now that there is a Democrat in office, this war is now a clusterfuck and it must be stopped pronto. Because war is bad and stuff....now. I'll stand by our not leaving Afghanistan in some form because I watched what happened the first time. I do not wish to see a repeat. American dumbassery got us into that decades ago, including Carter and Reagan both. So to walk out AGAIN is at our own peril. I hate, hate the drone bombing and the persistent shooting up of Afghan wedding parties. And the Gitmo at Bagram. But we and other countries should pour money and technology into the country. We helped bomb it back to the stone age, beginning 30 some years ago (before the Taliban when we used them to proxy the USSR, then we washed our hands of them, a ginormous mistake), Russia, the UK, France, Germany, etc...by the way, Turkey does want to be more of a presence in the rebuilding, which I think is a great idea

Heh, the husband and I were watching one of the Bond films the other day, one with Timothy Dalton in Afghanistan. I don't remember the name. Bond hooks up with a mujahadeen "freedom fighter"...and the hub looks at me and laughs. "That was before we called them taliban"...

It was a little window in time, when the Russians were still the bad guys and the warlords and crazy religious freaks of Afghanistan were our "good guys".

I'm not looking to score political points on this...I just want it done right so my kid doesn't spend the next 8 years in some fucking redux. I don't buy the term "war on terror"....it's a bogus propaganda term. But I do see a war against a specific area that harbours the motherfuckers that blew up WTC and poison minds in the region. To ignore the unstable Pakistan and it's nukes....meh.

Hey dickhead, did I say anything about being opposed to fighting either war?
I pointed out the unbelievable hypocrisy of your party.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

I'm sorry that YOU don't understand that it has been YOUR party who's members have voted against giving the troops what they need to win wars.

That's the same bullshit the right wing warhawks dangled after Vietnam. Trillions of dollars have been wasted over the past 10 years and no progress has been made. LOL, what on earth would it take to "win" at this point? There is no fucking objective. And there is no "winning" this incursion because we don't have a good enough reason to fight it. It's like trying to make a hole in a brick wall with a sewing needle and telling the person they aren't hitting it hard enough, or Congress is preventing them from shoving the needle harder. You give me one good reason why we should stay over there.

There are enough democrats who understand that it would be political suicide not to fund the troops. so the bills always manage to get by.
It was YOUR party who's asses were always bleeding crying about Bush's wars etc....
Now that King Obama rules, your crying has stopped. That was the only point of my post.

You are absolutely right about the hypocrisy of the Democratic party. Obama ran for President on a nominal anti-war campaign with promises to de-escalate both wars. He has failed to do so. But since you are in favor of staying there and wasting money and American lives, your criticism comes across as disingenuous. Your ideology precludes you from making an objective opinion in this case.

That's the problem with platform party politics; the discussion of morality is avoided in order to protect the platform. The disclosure of these documents recently have confirmed the previous criticisms that were dismissed earlier. The Democrats are wrong, the Republicans are wrong, and yes, you are wrong.

[Crazy Levi]

Hey dickhead, did I say anything about being opposed to fighting either war?
I pointed out the unbelievable hypocrisy of your party.

Believe it bitch.

Pointing out the "hypocrisy" of political parties is fucking ridiculous - all politicians - in fact, almost every human on earth, is guilty of "hypocrisy."

Why bitch about a war that you obviously support, just because the Dems are on board?

That's so hypocritical!

Hypocrite! Hypocrite!

Also, you hate America.

[vlad]

Vlad, do you see the situation being much different 8 years from now? Didn't we learn anything from the Soviets?

That's a good point. And why I am encouraged by the planned withdrawal in the next few years. Though I would remind everyone here that there are three generations of my family that have served in Korea....So it could be like Vietnam, or it could be like Korea or Germany.

As I said above, Turkey has said they want to help lead the reconstruction....I hope that they are encouraged in this.

And nevermind, obviously you did not pay attention to the election. Obama was very open about concentrating on Afghanistan and pulling out of Iraq, which is being done, at some slow order. So, I really don't know where you are getting the idea that Democrats are being hypocrites about funding Afghanistan...it' is part of the fucking party platform...before Obama was elected. Again, Iraq is not Afghanistan...

There are many on the left that want us out of Afghanistan....but Obama and the Dem Congress in general never made the Afghan War an issue, except that it was badly handled and ignored so Bush/Cheney could "cakewalk" into Iraq and have a middle east permanent base of operations.

In my heart I am still so angry that the US went into Iraq, blew shit up, cracked the secular government apart (Saddam right before the invasion did offer to leave, but Bush had other plans) and now after we caused this massive mayhem we are leaving it in worse condition than before, though it is getting a little better.

As I said, are we going to do the same thing AGAIN to Afghanistan. At some point, the US collectively has to assume responsibility for it's own mayhem caused in pursuit of global objectives.. That or just say out of it all together. But that horse it already out of the barn.

Now, I'd much prefer a Marshall Plan type of thing to armed conflict. A friend of mine actually walks the walk and work for an NGO that builds schools for girls in Afghanistan. That woman has big, big brass balls I tell you. She isn't one of the money grubbing carpetbaggers, but someone who actually goes there in the thick of it.

Like I said, I have a boy that may well wind up there..believe me, I have reflected on this a lot and if I seem cranky lately it's because it is a very stressful thing (my husband is quietly beside himself, torn between pride that a 4th generation (all Democrats nevermind) will become a Marine and the nightmares he has about losing the kid to a roadside bomb. So I am not saying any of this lightly.

The tragedy of Afghanistan was that before we helped the mujahadeen defeat the Soviets, women walked the streets of Kabul in short skirts. It may seem minor thing, but afghanistan was not always some desperate shithole...were the Soviets wrong to invade (it is more complicated than that, however), yes. Were we right, in our pursuit of the USSR to help the very people that would later tear the country apart? What we did very, very wrong was to walk away after the Soviets withdrew. And here we are again today. You say 8 years from now. If we leave again...what will happen to Afghanistan, will it fester there again so that in 8 years we would HAVE to go back. Will the cycle be repeated?

[bane]

Though I would remind everyone here that there are three generations of my family that have served in Korea....So it could be like Vietnam, or it could be like Korea or Germany.

That's exactly what it will be like. The difference being that there are identified borders and boundaries in Korea. There won't be in Afghanistan. There isn't a North and South Afghanistan and there never will be. We're in a position to have a permanent force over there that will constantly be under threat of suicide bombers and the like. My personal take on it is that we should just cut bait. Our mere presence there does more to stir up anti US sentiment amongst the Islamic kook contingent than it does to deter it.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

Go figure.

The House just approved a $59 billion bill to continue war funding, and increase spending on operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan, by a comfortable 308-114 vote.
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggl ... -vote.html

I figured I'd pop in here to see the outrage towards Obama , and just as I figured, not a single post from the liberals about it.
Obummer's wars continue.

So, we shouldn't support the troops anymore? Traitor.

I've had no real problem with the invasion of Afghanistan. Their former governmental authority, the Taliban, was complicit in an attack on the US. It was tantamount to an act of war and it was necessary to take action. Iraq, that's a totally different story. Had we not been distracted by a war there, we could have done a better job in Afghanistan and maybe not be spending this money now. It is sad you are unable to understand this.

I'm sorry that YOU don't understand that it has been YOUR party who's members have voted against giving the troops what they need to win wars. There are enough democrats who understand that it would be political suicide not to fund the troops. so the bills always manage to get by.
It was YOUR party who's asses were always bleeding crying about Bush's wars etc....
Now that King Obama rules, your crying has stopped. That was the only point of my post.

Well, as I've already admitted, I supported the Afghanistan invasion so I don't have much room to bitch about it. If the new Afghan govt. can't stand on it's own by now, they never will. As for Iraq, which I never supported, Obama has a deadline he set. If he doesn't meet it, he'll have some 'splainin' to do.

[vlad]

Though I would remind everyone here that there are three generations of my family that have served in Korea....So it could be like Vietnam, or it could be like Korea or Germany.

That's exactly what it will be like. The difference being that there are identified borders and boundaries in Korea. There won't be in Afghanistan. There isn't a North and South Afghanistan and there never will be. We're in a position to have a permanent force over there that will constantly be under threat of suicide bombers and the like. My personal take on it is that we should just cut bait. Our mere presence there does more to stir up anti US sentiment amongst the Islamic kook contingent than it does to deter it.

I do see your point completely....

But as I said, we cut bait there before and unless we remove ourselves from the Muslim world completely, which is not going to happen, honestly, it isn't, what going on in Afghanistan and Pakistan is directly related to us and our safety. I am not afraid of Iran at all (though I am worried about Netanyahu and his hard-right cronies beating the war drum against Iran (as in saying, if we don't bomb them, they will..hopefully just bluster, but that admin in particular is the little brother/butt buddy of the Cheney crowd, and the crazy Christian Zionist crowd that wants to bring the rapture ) ...and though the mullahs and the Revolutionary Guard let A-Jad spout off, they are fucking billionaires, some of them, they are making too much money to actually do something stupid), but I do worry about the instability of Pakistan and their nukes....The Taliban took over a huge chunk of Pakistan lately and while the Pakistan military has finally pushed back, it's troubling to say the least.

We can leave and certain Saudi's will continue to fund the extreme radical elements in the region...we are a target even if we aren't there. America is a great rallying point for the fuckers.

[MickeyG]

You know, I just did a little reading on Afghanistan, and I never knew they had a pro Soviet govt in the 70's. The Mujahideen were being secretly funded by Jimmy Carters US Government in a bid to provoke the Soviets into invading and having their own "Vietnam". And now look how it's turned out. Is it any wonder we're seen as assholes? Sure, I want us to "win", but we, and by we I mean the Western Allies as Britain is as knee deep in shit for all the stuff it has pulled down the centuries, need to realize it isn't all about us getting what we want all the time.

[bane]

You know, I just did a little reading on Afghanistan, and I never knew they had a pro Soviet govt in the 70's. The Mujahideen were being secretly funded by Jimmy Carters US Government in a bid to provoke the Soviets into invading and having their own "Vietnam". And now look how it's turned out. Is it any wonder we're seen as assholes? Sure, I want us to "win", but we, and by we I mean the Western Allies as Britain is as knee deep in shit for all the stuff it has pulled down the centuries, need to realize it isn't all about us getting what we want all the time.

There is a conspiracy theory that we baited the Soviets into intervening in Afghanistan, but there's no proof of that and it has been denied by US officials. There was no official US involvement in that conflict until after the Soviet invasion. Make of that what you will. What is true is that we pulled our involvement once the Soviets were out of the picture leaving a loose bunch of warlords to fight over the scraps using our weapons. Those same weapons ended up being used against us. The "Reagan Doctrine" and our subsequent backing away from it can be directly blamed for the current state of affairs for sure. We sowed the seeds and opened the door for the Bin Ladens of the world.

[lerxstcat]

I doubt very seriously that Jimmy Carter supported a policy of provoking the Soviets into invading Afghanistan. I doubt that Nixon or Ford would have either, because it would be courting U.S. intervention at a time when Nixon and Ford were extricating us from Vietnam.

As for now, we can't allow a vacuum to make Afghanistan an Al Qaeda stronghold again. Plus the world's mother lode of lithium is in the Afghan mountains and we aren't leaving becase of that too.

We should make a truce that tolerates the growing and sale of opium poppies in return for those warlords allowing access and exploitation of the lithium deposits for the benefot of the country and of course our benefit as well. It could bring that country's prosperity level up to unprecedented levels.

They may not have oil, but they have someting we want just as much.

[MickeyG]

I dunno guys, I'm not saying Carter himself knew anything, but you know what goes on behind the scenes.

Even if the goal was not to provoke a Soviet invasion, it's not hard to believe that the US was giving weapons to the Afghan rebels who were fighting against the Socialist government. You know, stopping the spread of the evil communism and all that. America couldn't send troops so soon after 'Nam, and also because that would certainly have provoked Russia into action, causing a possible 3rd world war.

Who knows, I guess. One victory was won, the end of the Soviet Empire but a new enemy was created.

[vlad]

I doubt very seriously that Jimmy Carter supported a policy of provoking the Soviets into invading Afghanistan. I doubt that Nixon or Ford would have either, because it would be courting U.S. intervention at a time when Nixon and Ford were extricating us from Vietnam.

As for now, we can't allow a vacuum to make Afghanistan an Al Qaeda stronghold again. Plus the world's mother lode of lithium is in the Afghan mountains and we aren't leaving becase of that too.

We should make a truce that tolerates the growing and sale of opium poppies in return for those warlords allowing access and exploitation of the lithium deposits for the benefot of the country and of course our benefit as well. It could bring that country's prosperity level up to unprecedented levels.

They may not have oil, but they have someting we want just as much.

Well, I am an admirer of Carter, but I do think he (led by Brzezinski and his cadre) did do that. The choices made in regards to supporting the Shah, same, same. Old Cold Warriors and their policies. iran and Afghanistan were Carter's foreign policy blunders.

You are right about the mineral wealth..that is a whole other can of worms. Hopefully a sane Afghan government can turn that into a bonanza for all of the Afghans. Though, seeing how it's worked out in the Congo, I have to wonder. But! I live in hopes.

As for the opium thing..I kind of agree. Sadly, a whole lot of pomegranate groves and other valuable crops were ripped out to grow opium. If we are going to bribe the fuckers, why not bribe them to grow crops that can be exported. Pom juice is very popular. That's simplisiic sounding I guess, but if we are bribing, bribr them to grow something that is not opium.

[lerxstcat]

I don't think we CAN bribe them to gro something else, the opium is too valuable in comparison. My thought is to tolerate it, since that is a big reason for them to continue to fight US - our aim to eradicate it.

If we agree NOT to prosecute our war against drugs on their turf, perhaps they would let the central government in to exploit the mineral wealth.

I really don't think Carter wanted the Soviets to invade Afghanistan - I do think we wanted to destabilize the socialist government there, hoping a pro-Western regime would result. If anything I think Carter probabl;y thought the USSR was too smart to get itself into a mess like we had just gotten out of. So the hope was probably that a more pro-Western government would arise in a country that was not really fully within the Soviet empire. Big misstep. As for the Shah, he'd been a stable ally from our POV for decades. I'm sure our intel on internal dissent in Iran was fairly well screened out by Savak until Khomeini came home.

The Shah should have had his air force shoot down that jet bringing the Ayatollah home to Iran. Any uprising would have been a lot easier to putr down if khomeini was gone. Or at least MIGHT have been possible to put down, unlike what actually happened.

Alternate realities, who knows? Fun to conjecture but no one can really say!