Feds scrap "Virtual Border"

[bane]

After spending a billion dollars, the feds have decided to scrap the idea and start something more realistic. I'm all for not throwing good money after bad, but a BILLION dollars? Federal inefficiency at it's best.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/spe ... 60409.html

[Skate4RnR]

It's a lot of money but I've seen worse. Remember $1,000 dollar hammers and shit back in the 80's?

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

After spending a billion dollars, the feds have decided to scrap the idea and start something more realistic. I'm all for not throwing good money after bad, but a BILLION dollars? Federal inefficiency at it's best.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/spe ... 60409.html

But it was important. How else were we to keep out all those evil wetbacks who were taking all our jobs while simultaneously not working and collecting welfare?

No, it's Republican idiocy at it's worst. This was the product of "big government conservatives" protecting us from those monstrous Messicans.

As far as government inefficiency, do you think a private contractor could do it cheaper while keeping out all those dirty Messicans? The border is 1969 miles long. They weren't going to be getting quotes from Lowes and Home Depot.

[bane]

As far as government inefficiency, do you think a private contractor could do it cheaper while keeping out all those dirty Messicans? The border is 1969 miles long. They weren't going to be getting quotes from Lowes and Home Depot.

A private contractor did do it. It was Boeing. The government paid them a billion dollars to install cameras and ground sensors along a 53 mile stretch. That's billion with a capital "B". The entire thing was supposed to cost 8 billion. They managed to do 53 miles of the 1600 mile border (less the 650 or so miles of regular old fashioned chain link fence that they've installed) for 1/8 of the budget. I'm no math whiz, but my arithmetic tells me that might be just a tad out of whack. Maybe it has something to do with hiring a company that builds airplanes to install cameras?

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

As far as government inefficiency, do you think a private contractor could do it cheaper while keeping out all those dirty Messicans? The border is 1969 miles long. They weren't going to be getting quotes from Lowes and Home Depot.

A private contractor did do it. It was Boeing. The government paid them a billion dollars to install cameras and ground sensors along a 53 mile stretch. That's billion with a capital "B". The entire thing was supposed to cost 8 billion. They managed to do 53 miles of the 1600 mile border (less the 650 or so miles of regular old fashioned chain link fence that they've installed) for 1/8 of the budget. I'm no math whiz, but my arithmetic tells me that might be just a tad out of whack. Maybe it has something to do with hiring a company that builds airplanes to install cameras?

You got to remember, that was the low bid..

Boeing does a lot more than build airplanes. Israel is spending over 2 million (and climbing) per kilometer for their wall. Keeping people out ain't cheap, especially miles away from even the vestiges of civilization.

I just took issue with the glib 'government inefficiency' remark. The blame lies squarely with the assclowns who think the US will become an Ozzie and Harriet paradise if only they can keep the brown skinned people on the south side of the border. If you don't want an 8 billion dollar border fence, quit voting for people who want to build one.

[bane]

C'mon. You don't see the idiocy of spending that kind of money for 53 miles? I'm pointing out that it's another example of how completely idiotic our government sometimes is at the federal level because it's true. They spent a billion dollars for 53 miles. They could have put up all 1600 miles of chain link and maintained it for 100 years for less than that. By your own admission, 2 million per kilometer would be a fucking bargain compared to what our fearless leaders shelled out.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

C'mon. You don't see the idiocy of spending that kind of money for 53 miles? I'm pointing out that it's another example of how completely idiotic our government sometimes is at the federal level because it's true. They spent a billion dollars for 53 miles. They could have put up all 1600 miles of chain link and maintained it for 100 years for less than that. By your own admission, 2 million per kilometer would be a fucking bargain compared to what our fearless leaders shelled out.

Of course I do, just like all the other shit Republicans pushed. It's interesting it took a Democratic administration to kill this boondoggle. Like I said before: If you don't want an 8 billion dollar border fence, quit voting for people who want to build one.

As for a chain link fence, Mexicans would go through it like beans through a BBQ grill.

[bane]

C'mon. You don't see the idiocy of spending that kind of money for 53 miles? I'm pointing out that it's another example of how completely idiotic our government sometimes is at the federal level because it's true. They spent a billion dollars for 53 miles. They could have put up all 1600 miles of chain link and maintained it for 100 years for less than that. By your own admission, 2 million per kilometer would be a fucking bargain compared to what our fearless leaders shelled out.

Of course I do, just like all the other shit Republicans pushed. It's interesting it took a Democratic administration to kill this boondoggle. Like I said before: If you don't want an 8 billion dollar border fence, quit voting for people who want to build one.

As for a chain link fence, Mexicans would go through it like beans through a BBQ grill.

Securing the border is more important now than it's ever been. It has nothing to do with any "fear of brown people". It has to do with controlling smuggling routes that bring in things a fuck of a lot more dangerous than a bunch of guys that will end up mowing somebody's lawn. This high tech idea was a bad one from jump, but getting that border under control is still the right thing to do. They just need to do it in a responsible manner and lay off the pie in the sky James Bond shit. I do agree that Napolitano seems to have a far greater grasp on responsible management than her predecessor did. Good for her. Now lets see congress fund something that makes sense.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

'Securing the border' is an empty catchphrase and if you think the brown people are not a major factor, you are fooling yourself. I bet you've not considered fencing the world's biggest border which has had more confirmed terrorist crossings than it's southern counterpart.

[bane]

'Securing the border' is an empty catchphrase and if you think the brown people are not a major factor, you are fooling yourself. I bet you've not considered fencing the world's biggest border which has had more confirmed terrorist crossings than it's southern counterpart.

I don't live on the Northern border, so it doesn't concern me quite as much. I haven't heard much about Canadian drug guys putting bullet holes in office buildings in North Dakota either. Illegal immigration IS an issue, but I've been pretty clear on my stance on it here many times, and it's very much counter to what you seem to think it is.

All that said, are you advocating scrapping the entire idea? If so, I think you're wrong, but thankfully, so does just about everybody else including the current administration.

[EvilMadman]

Yeah, yeah. Nothing will EVER be done about any illegal immigration into the United States.

For one, the Democrats want any potential votes they may be able scoop up, and for two, pro big-business connected Republicans desire all the dirt cheap labor they can get.

Simple. Too many people have an interest.

And that whole "we do the work Americans don't want to do" utter nonsense. Fact is, "undocumented workers" do the jobs Americans don't want to do, at below minimum wage, with no benefits of any kind. The majority of "undocumented workers" slave (literally) away with no protections, no benefits, and a pittance salary, all the while undermining legitimate U.S. workers wages. Which is the reason that no other country on Earth tolerates "undocumented workers", including Mexico.

http://dailycaller.com/2010/05/21/lets- ... on-policy/

Calderon's interview with Wolf Blitzer is hilarious.

http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?page=N ... _ctrl=1017

Then there's this...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... -to-agent/

Which everyone seems to have forgotten.

[bane]

@ "slave away for less than minimum wage". Most of the illegals I know make considerably more than minimum wage. Starting pay is around 9 - 10 bucks an hour. The days of those guys working for 40 bucks a day are long since over. The upside to hiring South of the border labor is that those guys are instilled with a work ethic that most lower wage type Americans no longer have. It's not about cheap labor, plenty of Americans will show up for work for 10 bucks an hour. It's about cheap efficient labor. Mexicans aren't lazy. Americans are.

[EvilMadman]

@ "slave away for less than minimum wage". Most of the illegals I know make considerably more than minimum wage. Starting pay is around 9 - 10 bucks an hour. The days of those guys working for 40 bucks a day are long since over. The upside to hiring South of the border labor is that those guys are instilled with a work ethic that most lower wage type Americans no longer have. It's not about cheap labor, plenty of Americans will show up for work for 10 bucks an hour. It's about cheap efficient labor. Mexicans aren't lazy. Americans are.

I never thought Mexicans were/are lazy. And I never believed that "Lazy American" stereotype either, when I first heard it in the mid 80's, or whenever all the fuss about the Japanese auto companies were.

Americans (just like anyone else) will work whatever job that they can get hired for.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/04 ... 010mar05/3

Starting pay is around 9 - 10 bucks an hour.

There's certainly nothing wrong with that salary. Unless, maybe you're a single parent and have children. Then that's probably not enough. But I know at least three friends that would kill for that (one's a college student).

[lerxstcat]

@ "slave away for less than minimum wage". Most of the illegals I know make considerably more than minimum wage. Starting pay is around 9 - 10 bucks an hour. The days of those guys working for 40 bucks a day are long since over. The upside to hiring South of the border labor is that those guys are instilled with a work ethic that most lower wage type Americans no longer have. It's not about cheap labor, plenty of Americans will show up for work for 10 bucks an hour. It's about cheap efficient labor. Mexicans aren't lazy. Americans are.

That's right, they do work for low wages compared to what Americans would want for the same work, but they don't work for sub-minimum wage. The work they do is usually back-breaking shit and while they take a pay cut for being illegal, they aren't stupid and know it's worth something.

And I had the same problem 10 years ago in California. You couldn't get an American to dig a trench for $10 an hour, but Hispanics were glad to do it. So we were damn glad to have them do it and appreciated them for it.

[bane]

I never thought Mexicans were/are lazy. And I never believed that "Lazy American" stereotype either, when I first heard it in the mid 80's, or whenever all the fuss about the Japanese auto companies were.

Americans (just like anyone else) will work whatever job that they can get hired for.

Taking a job and showing up for it are not the same thing as doing it efficiently and working hard at it. I am generalizing because individuals differ, but Americans by and large are spoiled and soft compared to workers from some other cultures. That holds particularly true with lower paying jobs. That isn't a myth. It's a fact.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

'Securing the border' is an empty catchphrase and if you think the brown people are not a major factor, you are fooling yourself. I bet you've not considered fencing the world's biggest border which has had more confirmed terrorist crossings than it's southern counterpart.

I don't live on the Northern border, so it doesn't concern me quite as much. I haven't heard much about Canadian drug guys putting bullet holes in office buildings in North Dakota either. Illegal immigration IS an issue, but I've been pretty clear on my stance on it here many times, and it's very much counter to what you seem to think it is.

All that said, are you advocating scrapping the entire idea? If so, I think you're wrong, but thankfully, so does just about everybody else including the current administration.

Ahmed Ressam, an Al Quaeda operative, was busted while crossing the Canadian border on his way to bomb LAX. Canada's lax immigration adn asylum policy make it popular with terrorist groups. That's a bit more worrisome than stray potshots flying across the border.

Boeing spent a billion dollars trying to secure 53 miles of border. Israel's border fence is way behind schedule and way over budget and climbing and still suicide bombers and missiles get through. People got through the Berlin Wall. A secure border is a myth, like Santa Claus and leprechauns.

It will take a fence that can't easily be penetrated by hand or portable power tools. It will require a literal army of Border Patrol agents to stop people from tunneling under, climbing over and cutting though the barrier. people will still come through it like it was built from revolving doors. We'll be told how we just need more money, more fence and more people... and more patience. It will be just another big government program from the 'small government' people.

[bane]

The only reason we don't know about terrorists sneaking in via the southern border is because we haven't caught any of them. I do agree that it is impossible to completely secure the border, and even if we did, you can always get into the country by sea or by air, but I do believe that there are practical solutions that can make it a whole lot more difficult. We could use some of the proven tech we are already using in Afghanistan. That is what I think they'll ultimately do. Right now our border is completely wide open. Your odds of driving or walking into the US and making it into a major city are far better than they are of bumbling into a border patrol agent. They catch a lot of illegals. They don't catch many drug runners or terrorist operatives. The pros know where our people are concentrated and they know how to get around them. To me, we make it as difficult as we can using practical means and roll the dice. Odds are that a determined terrorist is going to make it in, and that a good percentage of the dope that is smuggled in will make it, but the more we can stop, the better off we are.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

The racism red herring fallacy is also tired. Illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be addressed, not only for the working class but to prevent illegals' exploitation. This is a fact that all but the most left wing ideologies acknowledge.

[bane]

The racism red herring fallacy is also tired. Illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be addressed, not only for the working class but to prevent illegals' exploitation. This is a fact that all but the most left wing ideologies acknowledge.

True, but the immigration problem can be easily remedied without worrying about the border.

[EvilMadman]

@ "slave away for less than minimum wage". Most of the illegals I know make considerably more than minimum wage. Starting pay is around 9 - 10 bucks an hour. The days of those guys working for 40 bucks a day are long since over. The upside to hiring South of the border labor is that those guys are instilled with a work ethic that most lower wage type Americans no longer have. It's not about cheap labor, plenty of Americans will show up for work for 10 bucks an hour. It's about cheap efficient labor. Mexicans aren't lazy. Americans are.

That's right, they do work for low wages compared to what Americans would want for the same work, but they don't work for sub-minimum wage. The work they do is usually back-breaking shit and while they take a pay cut for being illegal, they aren't stupid and know it's worth something.

And I had the same problem 10 years ago in California. You couldn't get an American to dig a trench for $10 an hour, but Hispanics were glad to do it. So we were damn glad to have them do it and appreciated them for it.

But wouldn't employers eventually be forced to raise that "$10 an hour" to something more reasonable and fair, if they didn't have that inexhaustible supply of desperate workers?

[bane]

Employers could be forced to do that and we could all pay the price for it. Again, it's not just about rate of pay either. It's about productivity as well. Take a simple job that involves digging a ditch. Say it takes 2 guys 16 hours to do it at a rate of 10 bucks an hour each. That's 320 bucks. The employer adds in his over head and profit, let's say 60%, and charges his customer 500 bucks. Change that to 2 guys making 15 an hour who spend a lot of time leaning on their shovels and it takes 4 days. That same job ends up costing the customer 1500 bucks. Extrapolate that over the entire economy and look at what we're left with.

[lerxstcat]

Employers could be forced to do that and we could all pay the price for it. Again, it's not just about rate of pay either. It's about productivity as well. Take a simple job that involves digging a ditch. Say it takes 2 guys 16 hours to do it at a rate of 10 bucks an hour each. That's 320 bucks. The employer adds in his over head and profit, let's say 60%, and charges his customer 500 bucks. Change that to 2 guys making 15 an hour who spend a lot of time leaning on their shovels and it takes 4 days. That same job ends up costing the customer 1500 bucks. Extrapolate that over the entire economy and look at what we're left with.

Perfectly said. When you are dealing with a customer and bidding a sewer or water service replacement, you have to be competitive, and that ditch needs to be dug on a timely basis because the customer is without either water service or sewer service. No shit, no shower, no shave, no cooking - that gets old fast.

Then you have the skilled labor to put in the water service or sewer line, wait for the inspector to look at it and pass the work, then he laborers to backfill once again. There's no room in the bid process for two lazy Americans to dig and backfill the ditch. Either the customer or the contractor would be royally screwed. You can't stay in business that way.

[bane]

Perfectly said. When you are dealing with a customer and bidding a sewer or water service replacement, you have to be competitive, and that ditch needs to be dug on a timely basis because the customer is without either water service or sewer service. No shit, no shower, no shave, no cooking - that gets old fast.

Then you have the skilled labor to put in the water service or sewer line, wait for the inspector to look at it and pass the work, then he laborers to backfill once again. There's no room in the bid process for two lazy Americans to dig and backfill the ditch. Either the customer or the contractor would be royally screwed. You can't stay in business that way.

You can easily stretch that beyond the simple jobs we're talking about here and go bigger picture. Housing, manufacturing etc would suffer as well. I don't think that all Americans are lazy, but our best and brightest don't generally end up working a shovel. They're rocking a desk. Our low wage earners tend to be our dregs. Immigrant labor is a different story. Those oeople often come from humble means and arrive here hungry and greatful for the opportunity. When you really think about it, it's pretty much always been that way.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

Are you two secretly Canadian?

[EvilMadman]

Employers could be forced to do that and we could all pay the price for it. Again, it's not just about rate of pay either. It's about productivity as well. Take a simple job that involves digging a ditch. Say it takes 2 guys 16 hours to do it at a rate of 10 bucks an hour each. That's 320 bucks. The employer adds in his over head and profit, let's say 60%, and charges his customer 500 bucks. Change that to 2 guys making 15 an hour who spend a lot of time leaning on their shovels and it takes 4 days. That same job ends up costing the customer 1500 bucks. Extrapolate that over the entire economy and look at what we're left with.

Employers could be forced to do that and we could all pay the price for it.

But wouldn't the higher costs be balanced with more Americans earning higher wages?

I'm just not sure, Bane. I understand your reasoning, but I think you're really making a lot of assumptions though (i.e. if two American workers were hired to dig a ditch, they would just stand around all day cause they're lazy). I'd like to see some labor statistics backing up what you're saying.

And I'd also like to know exactly how many young (high school graduate age) American workers, low skilled/inexperienced workers are hurt from the use of illegal migrant workers.

...Say it takes 2 guys 16 hours to do it at a rate of 10 bucks an hour each. That's 320 bucks.

Sounds reasonable.

...The employer adds in his over head and profit, let's say 60%, and charges his customer 500 bucks.

Also fine.

...Change that to 2 guys making 15 an hour...

That sounds about right.

...who spend a lot of time leaning on their shovels and it takes 4 days. That same job ends up costing the customer 1500 bucks.

Just wow! So, from 16 hours to 4 days, just because they're using American citizens? Really? And "a lot of time leaning on their shovels"? It seems to me, that that last quote is absolute, pure speculation on your part.

And the extra cost should actually be closer to $480, and not $1500.

[EvilMadman]

Are you two secretly Canadian?

[bane]

Employers could be forced to do that and we could all pay the price for it. Again, it's not just about rate of pay either. It's about productivity as well. Take a simple job that involves digging a ditch. Say it takes 2 guys 16 hours to do it at a rate of 10 bucks an hour each. That's 320 bucks. The employer adds in his over head and profit, let's say 60%, and charges his customer 500 bucks. Change that to 2 guys making 15 an hour who spend a lot of time leaning on their shovels and it takes 4 days. That same job ends up costing the customer 1500 bucks. Extrapolate that over the entire economy and look at what we're left with.

Employers could be forced to do that and we could all pay the price for it.

But wouldn't the higher costs be balanced with more Americans earning higher wages?

I'm just not sure, Bane. I understand your reasoning, but I think you're really making a lot of assumptions though (i.e. if two American workers were hired to dig a ditch, they would just stand around all day cause they're lazy). I'd like to see some labor statistics backing up what you're saying.

And I'd also like to know exactly how many young (high school graduate age) American workers, low skilled/inexperienced workers are hurt from the use of illegal migrant workers.

...Say it takes 2 guys 16 hours to do it at a rate of 10 bucks an hour each. That's 320 bucks.

Sounds reasonable.

...The employer adds in his over head and profit, let's say 60%, and charges his customer 500 bucks.

Also fine.

...Change that to 2 guys making 15 an hour...

That sounds about right.

...who spend a lot of time leaning on their shovels and it takes 4 days. That same job ends up costing the customer 1500 bucks.

Just wow! So, from 16 hours to 4 days, just because they're using American citizens? Really? And "a lot of time leaning on their shovels"? It seems to me, that that last quote is absolute, pure speculation on your part.

And the extra cost should actually be closer to $480, and not $1500.

It is speculatory because individuals do very, but I can tell you based on my 20+ years as a general contractor that what I've lined out is the way it plays out more often than not, at least based on what I've seen.

I don't know how you come up with 480.00 extra. You need to check your math and bear in mind that overhead and proffit are added as a percentage of gross costs. My numbers are accurate based on th e scenario I outlined, which is pretty close to the real numbers in my area. They will change depending on regional factors.

Look, becoming an American citizen doesn't make a person lazy, but several generations of an American standard of living tends to make a lot of people think that something like ditch digging is beneath them. Americans with strong work ethics don't end up digging ditches for a living very often. They end up doing something a little higher on the food chain. Immigrants from more humble means think a little differently. It isn't a racial thing. It's a cultural thing.

[lerxstcat]

And the extra cost should actually be closer to $480, and not $1500.

$480 times TWO diggers is $960 x 1.6 = $1536. You forgot 2 diggers and the 60% markup.

We are going by experience in the construction trades - Bane in general construction and I by a small service/repair plumbing shop.

One big difference between young Hispanic laborers and young American-born laborers is that the Hispanics will get right to work busting ass as soon as you give directions. I have often found with american kids that they will actually stand there and argue with you about how to do the task you just instructed them to do - taking up work time and expecting to be paid while they tell you they think they know a better way. Then, after a half-hour of think tank bullshit, they start digging and you drive off to do somethig else.

Then you get a call from the customer that she sees them leaning on their shovels smoking and shooting the breeze - and throwing the butts down in her yard instead of putting them in a can for disposal.

That's when you have to go pick them up, take them back to the shop, fire them, then drive dow to where the Mexicans hang out and hire some day laborers to cut your losses - when you had other things you needed to be doing.

It's anecdotal, but I am sure it is typical behavior, or those Hispanics wouldn't be getting all that work. All things being equal it would be easier to use employees who showed up and clocked in in the morning, rather than go hunt down day laborers - if the regular employees would work instead of stand around talking or arguing with you.

The Hispanic day laborer is still much more valuable despite the extra time and the fact that there is somewhat of a language barrier - because they will bust their asses working, because they want you to hre them again.

They actually make booklets of Construction Spanish for this reason, so you can give them instructions for these tasks, or even simple things like "Venga aqui" (Come here) so they will follow you over to the task area and you can use gestures to indicate what you need.

It's accepted enough that you have a "casual labor" expense item for your taxes that is basically never questioned when you do your taxes. It's understood that it's the way to get a ditch dug.

[EvilMadman]

$480 times TWO diggers is $960 x 1.6 = $1536. You forgot 2 diggers and the 60% markup.

Yeah, I forgot Bane's 60% markup.

But originally it was TWO diggers at $320 ($10 per hour) for 16 hours ($160 for each worker).

...Say it takes 2 guys 16 hours to do it at a rate of 10 bucks an hour each. That's 320 bucks. The employer adds in his over head and profit, let's say 60%, and charges his customer 500 bucks...

$500

Now, if at a $15 per hour pay rate instead of $10 per hour (for TWO diggers) that $500 should be around $768 (extra pay plus the markup), if I'm not mistaken. Yes, it's an extra expense for using American workers, but hardly a business killer.

...Change that to 2 guys making 15 an hour who spend a lot of time leaning on their shovels and it takes 4 days. That same job ends up costing the customer 1500 bucks...

NOT $1500!

I hate numbers!

Hey, Bane, what's the deal with overtime pay for your "non-citizen" employees? Just wondering.

[EvilMadman]

Americans with strong work ethics don't end up digging ditches for a living very often. They end up doing something a little higher on the food chain. Immigrants from more humble means think a little differently. It isn't a racial thing. It's a cultural thing.

College grads don't really want to "dig ditches" for a living. Totally believable. (Probably more so if the grad is an Ivy Leaguer.)

Yes, some cultures are just more, uh, "laid back"/"slower paced"? I can agree with that.

I only take issue with you painting every American worker as "lazy" solely because of your bad experiences. Should every government employee be replaced with an illegal worker?