Israel is too good to Palestine

[SmokingGun]

Israel really believes in 'love thy neighbor'. Firstly they allow freedom of religion, the only place in the Middle East to do so. This alone speaks volumes. Why aren't other regimes in the area called upon by the UN to do so? Everyone but Muslimes are persecuted and often executed in virtually all Middle Eastern countries but Israel.

Secondly Israel almost only fires when fired upon. There are very few examples of Israel attacking first. As with every army, there will be exceptions, but they are far and few between.

Thirdly they spend their time and money to take care of injured Palestinians. I have never heard of Palestine hospitalizing Israelis in large numbers. This is even more ironic when the injuries the Palestinians are in Israeli hospitals for are due to the Palestinians attacking Israel. This is going above and beyond 'love thy neighbor' all the way to 'love thy enemy'.

How about the western media demand Palestine allow freedom of religion before being given any more aid by western governments? Palestine just got another $150 million.. for what, to reward them for being primitive low life scum who still live like it's the year 1452? To reward them for treating women like animals? To reward them for firing rockets into Israel? To reward them for forcing 13 year old girls to marry 50 year old lechers?

Israel is clearly the superior culture. Inventing stuff like kinekt, pointless as it is to me, it's going to make millions for the USA., They are actually doing useful stuff despite the constant attacks from enemies from all borders. Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the US, even though it's the worlds 100th smallest country. That is nothing short of AMAZING.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1600302/posts

Israelis prefer to do useful things, and not sit in a cave eating food off the floor with their hands and beating one of their three wives for nagging. As is Allahs will.

Waiting for all the anti-semite.. sorry, anti-zionists here to tell us all how evil Israel is. How dare they protect themselves from Muslim cowards shooting rockets from schools and hospitals, gladly using their women and children as cover. That way they can point to the demolished rocket bases..errr..hospitals and schools and say:

"the Jews did it".

[bane]

I love massively slanted propaganda.

[SmokingGun]

I love massively slanted propaganda.

Yep! The BBC has an endless supply of 'those poor Palestinians' stories. Virtually none tell about the democracy and religious freedom Israel offers people of all races.

[bane]

I love massively slanted propaganda.

Yep! The BBC has an endless supply of 'those poor Palestinians' stories. Virtually none tell about the democracy and religious freedom Israel offers people of all races.

You're kidding, right?

[SmokingGun]

I love massively slanted propaganda.

Yep! The BBC has an endless supply of 'those poor Palestinians' stories. Virtually none tell about the democracy and religious freedom Israel offers people of all races.

You're kidding, right?

Nope, the BBC is rabidly anti-Israel, it has been that way since the days of 'Yes Minister' (which I am watching ATM). There is no disputing which side of the fence the BBC is on in this regard. It is a rite of passage in UK academic circles to put down Israel.

Just do a google search for 'UK boycotts israel'

or:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/may/3 ... cationnews

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/dec/1 ... ews.israel

http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada/20 ... boy_1.html

and more recently

http://www.jpost.com/International/Arti ... ?id=173778

Getting back to the BBC, the BBC has *never* taken a stance against this. Their news reports are almost always pro-Palestine and anti-Israel. Israel is always shown as the bad guy, and the Palestinians the helpless victims.

This is the same organization that would be OK with an image of a Bible or Torah being thrown in a garbage can, but not the Koran. Their words.

[bane]

Uh, OK. Is your only news source the BBC? I have no idea what the BBC reports because I really don't pay much attention to them, but I assure you that isn't the case with the vast majority of mainstream media.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

but I assure you that isn't the case with the vast majority of mainstream media.

Mainstream media in the United States. Journalists in France, Germany, Poland, and especially the UK are notoriously anti-Israel. In academia also.

[vlad]

and not sit in a cave eating food off the floor with their hands and beating one of their three wives for nagging. As is Allahs will.

Yeah, the famous caves in the mountains of Gaza?

I/P is like abortion and gay marriage. A good way to flame and vent spleen on teh_internets. A true thoughtful reply would be wasted.

Free Republic? Really? edit: I would say the same thing if someone linked to Democratic Underground, Free Republic's left wing twin. Both are fucking crazy.

[CliffByford]

Smoking Gun, do you live in the UK? Is that why you've got such a hard-on for the BBC? Yes, there is plenty anti-Israeli rhetoric out there in the news media. This isn't exactly a revelation.

As for religious tolerance, right next door to Israel is a country called Lebanon. Its President is a Maronite Christian, Prime Minister is a Sunni and Speaker of the House a Shia. This is mandated by law. The legislature contains Maronites, Orthodox Christians (both Greek and Armenian), Shia and Sunni Muslims, Druze and others.

So much for your claim that [on Israel]: "They allow freedom of religion, the only place in the Middle East to do so". The above information proves that, two sentences in, you've already made a huge factual error. So much for the rest of that pathetic screed.

Dunce.

[lerxstcat]

Smoking Gun, do you live in the UK? Is that why you've got such a hard-on for the BBC? Yes, there is plenty anti-Israeli rhetoric out there in the news media. This isn't exactly a revelation.

As for religious tolerance, right next door to Israel is a country called Lebanon. Its President is a Maronite Christian, Prime Minister is a Sunni and Speaker of the House a Shia. This is mandated by law. The legislature contains Maronites, Orthodox Christians (both Greek and Armenian), Shia and Sunni Muslims, Druze and others.

So much for your claim that [on Israel]: "They allow freedom of religion, the only place in the Middle East to do so". The above information proves that, two sentences in, you've already made a huge factual error. So much for the rest of that pathetic screed.

Dunce.

He did make an error because of Lebanon's status, but that doesn't automatically mean that everything else he said is also untrue. Lebanon is pretty easy to forget since it is not exactly a major power in the region, having been stepped on by Syria as often as by Israel in the region's conflicts.

Nobody is innocent in this Mideast conflict, but those who put the blame on Israel and ignore the other side of this long story are plain wrong to demonize a people who have been persecuted throughout history by the entire rest of the planet. Yeah they have a collective chip on their shoulder, but it's well-justified.

[PowerSlaveToTheGrind]

Nobody is innocent in this Mideast conflict, but those who put the blame on Israel and ignore the other side of this long story are plain wrong to demonize a people who have been persecuted throughout history by the entire rest of the planet.

I don't think anybody that should be taken seriously does that, they just point out that various things Israel do hardly help the peace process.

[SmokingGun]

Smoking Gun, do you live in the UK? Is that why you've got such a hard-on for the BBC? Yes, there is plenty anti-Israeli rhetoric out there in the news media. This isn't exactly a revelation.

As for religious tolerance, right next door to Israel is a country called Lebanon. Its President is a Maronite Christian, Prime Minister is a Sunni and Speaker of the House a Shia. This is mandated by law. The legislature contains Maronites, Orthodox Christians (both Greek and Armenian), Shia and Sunni Muslims, Druze and others.

So much for your claim that [on Israel]: "They allow freedom of religion, the only place in the Middle East to do so". The above information proves that, two sentences in, you've already made a huge factual error. So much for the rest of that pathetic screed.

Dunce.

No, I do not live in the UK, I have spent a total of 4 hours there on a stopover.

On paper, anything is possible. How many dictatorships are 'People's Democratic Republics'? How many of them have 'freedom of speech' yet lock up or execute people who the leaders deem as 'subversive'?

A lot of countries have 'elections'.. that don't mean a damn thing when the system is rigged from the outset.

There is a reason the majority of Lebanese Christians live outside of Lebanon than inside it.

"The Christians of Lebanon -- Maronites, Orthodox, and other communities including Protestants -- number about 1.5 million, the remnant of a Christian nation that resisted the Islamic conquorers for 13 centuries. Since Lebanon made an ill-conceived pact with the PLO in 1969, hundreds of thousands were massacred, displaced and exiled. During the Israeli operations in Lebanon in 1978 and in 1982, the Christian Lebanese sided with the Israelis against the Syria-backed Islamic Lebanese. In 1985, the Israelis withdrew except for a security buffer zone exposing the Christians to reprisals. Since 1990, the end of the Lebanese civil war, the Christian areas of Lebanon have been under Syrian occupation.

Christians in the north and central parts have been systematically politically and socially oppressed since the Lebanese civil war ended. Hundreds have been arrested, tortured, and jailed by pro-Syrian forces. In the south of Lebanon, thousands of Christians are bombarded constantly by Hezbollah. Thousands of Lebanese Christians fled when Israel pulled out of the security zone in 2000. There are more than seven million Lebanese Christians outside of Lebanon, including more than 1.5 million Americans of Lebanese descent."

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_current_christians.php





Iraq's Tariq Aziz, who was recently sentenced to death, was also a 'Christian'. Look him up, do you honestly think anyone who calls themselves a Christian is one? Especially when they do so to make their leadership look more impartial and fair? And to fool gullible schmucks in the west like yourself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Aziz

Are you really this stupid or are you just (misleadingly) nitpicking 5% of my post so you can conveniently ignore the other 95%?

[PowerSlaveToTheGrind]

Iraq's Tariq Aziz, who was recently sentenced to death, was also a 'Christian'. Look him up, do you honestly think anyone who calls themselves a Christian is one?

Sure, why not? You believe that anyone who commits acts of terror and claims it's in the name of Islam represents the entire faith, so why can't the rest of us be as ignorant?

[lerxstcat]

Iraq's Tariq Aziz, who was recently sentenced to death, was also a 'Christian'. Look him up, do you honestly think anyone who calls themselves a Christian is one?

Sure, why not? You believe that anyone who commits acts of terror and claims it's in the name of Islam represents the entire faith, so why can't the rest of us be as ignorant?

Well, that is somewhat of an overstatement. Islamic militants are a minority of the people of the countries they live in, but those countries are a bit like the gang-controlled areas of Loz angeles and other American cities in one way. The innocent people are not about to rat out the extremists lest they and their families receive reprisals. The honest peaceful citizens of the Muslim world also live in fear of reprisals if they should ID militants - so they are collaborators - coerced, for sure, but still, collaborators.

Tariq Aziz is just a thug, like Saddam was. Lapsed Christian, lapsed Muslim, what's the diff once you're in the mob ruling the country?

[bane]

but I assure you that isn't the case with the vast majority of mainstream media.

Mainstream media in the United States. Journalists in France, Germany, Poland, and especially the UK are notoriously anti-Israel. In academia also.

What are you reading? There are articles that paint Israel in a bad light sometimes to be sure. Israel isn't made up of a bunch of saints and they've done their part to earn criticism, but to call the entire mainstream media "anti Israel" like it's some kind of platform is simply untrue. Then again, a lot of pro Israel people are pretty hardline about it. It's an all or nothing thing without much room for perspective. I don't picture you as one of those people.

[lerxstcat]

but I assure you that isn't the case with the vast majority of mainstream media.

Mainstream media in the United States. Journalists in France, Germany, Poland, and especially the UK are notoriously anti-Israel. In academia also.

What are you reading? There are articles that paint Israel in a bad light sometimes to be sure. Israel isn't made up of a bunch of saints and they've done their part to earn criticism, but to call the entire mainstream media "anti Israel" like it's some kind of platform is simply untrue. Then again, a lot of pro Israel people are pretty hardline about it. It's an all or nothing thing without much room for perspective. I don't picture you as one of those people.

Well there's the fact that many Arab and Muslim nations have declared the goal of wiping Israel and the Jewish race off the face of the earth. When that is what Israel faces in terms of opposition, it kind of pushes them and their supporters into a hardline stance also, doesn't it?

Have you ever heard of an Israeli leader saying, "We need to wipe out all these Arabs and remove the arab race from the face of the Earth"?

No you haven't, because they never have said anything of the kind. They just want their hiomeland and to be left in peace.

[vlad]

Sigh....I'd recommend reading Benny Morris, an Israeli and Zionist professor of history at Ben-Gurion University. He's pissed of both sides, so perhaps he is closer to the truth than the myth building from either side, but especially Israel....though he is staunchly "pro-Israel"....another would be Ilan Pappé, who though Israeli born, is much more "pro-Palestinian".

Israel does not have clean hands here either. Something that really pissed me off. I was raised reading Leon Uris and thinking that Israel was this plucky and tough little nation beset on all sides for no good reason!!!..."This land, this land, God gave this land to me..." Great song, still. The situation is much more complex than is often seen in this country more than even Israel.

I suppose from some weird angle it is interesting to me how the memes are shaped in this country, but as I have said, the truth is much more complex. Americans, especially, are still going on the sources and myths that were available before the New Historians started in the 80's..in Israel.

[bane]

Well there's the fact that many Arab and Muslim nations have declared the goal of wiping Israel and the Jewish race off the face of the earth. When that is what Israel faces in terms of opposition, it kind of pushes them and their supporters into a hardline stance also, doesn't it?

Have you ever heard of an Israeli leader saying, "We need to wipe out all these Arabs and remove the arab race from the face of the Earth"?

No you haven't, because they never have said anything of the kind. They just want their hiomeland and to be left in peace.

A lot of people want to wipe the US off the map too. That doesn't make us right in everything we do either. I'm not even going to touch the "we just want to be left in peace" when it comes to Palestine. Suffice to say that there are two sides to the thing and that BOTH sides have done some seriously fucked up shit. I'm not arguing either side, I'm pointing out the fact that when it comes to Israel, ANY criticism is painted as "You're anti Israel". Israel deserves criticism for some of the things they do. That doesn't mean that I don't support their right to exist. Perspective dude.

[lerxstcat]

Trouble with the quote function, dude?

You say "Any" criticism as if that criticism is usually light and reasoned. It's not.

You really can't deny that anti-Semitism has existed in large numbers throughout history. It was rampant in Europe from the Middle Ages right down to today. A lot of those Europeans in Nazi-occupied Europe were perfectly happy to see the Jews loaded into freight cars and carted off to death camps.

Theye may have said they didn't know it was fror that - but they knew that WHATEVER it was, it did not conform to any standareds of human rights. Bt they just looked away, didn't complain, denied it after awhile.

I'm not exactly a Zionost, but their treatment has been more than horrific. They came in real danger of being eradicated leading up to WWII, if Hitler had prevailed maybe they WOULD be eradicated by now.

So they are very aggressive in taking measures to assure that they won't be put in that position EVER again. Because nobody ever stood up for the Jews in that war. We finally stood up for the British, and the USSR allied with us because it could see a threat to itself.

After that war, Europeans resented the Jews as a reminder of their failure to take a stand against the Jewish genocide. So they said , "Send them somewhere where WE don't have to see them". Well Jews had been resetling the Holy Land since the 1850s, so Israel was reborn.

I've left a sitload out, but the Jewish people have been hated and fucked with byt just about everybody throughout history. If anybody deserves to have a chip on their shoulder and owe some payback to somebody, it is them.

[bane]

Trouble with the quote function, dude?

You say "Any" criticism as if that criticism is usually light and reasoned. It's not.

You really can't deny that anti-Semitism has existed in large numbers throughout history. It was rampant in Europe from the Middle Ages right down to today. A lot of those Europeans in Nazi-occupied Europe were perfectly happy to see the Jews loaded into freight cars and carted off to death camps.

Theye may have said they didn't know it was fror that - but they knew that WHATEVER it was, it did not conform to any standareds of human rights. Bt they just looked away, didn't complain, denied it after awhile.

I'm not exactly a Zionost, but their treatment has been more than horrific. They came in real danger of being eradicated leading up to WWII, if Hitler had prevailed maybe they WOULD be eradicated by now.

So they are very aggressive in taking measures to assure that they won't be put in that position EVER again. Because nobody ever stood up for the Jews in that war. We finally stood up for the British, and the USSR allied with us because it could see a threat to itself.

After that war, Europeans resented the Jews as a reminder of their failure to take a stand against the Jewish genocide. So they said , "Send them somewhere where WE don't have to see them". Well Jews had been resetling the Holy Land since the 1850s, so Israel was reborn.

I've left a sitload out, but the Jewish people have been hated and fucked with byt just about everybody throughout history. If anybody deserves to have a chip on their shoulder and owe some payback to somebody, it is them.

No doubt Jews have suffered horrible attrocities for a very, very long time. That doesn't justify Israel doing everything they do. That's all I'm saying. It isn't an all or nothing proposition.

[vlad]

So Lerx, because the Europeans treated the Jews like lower than shit, and they did, and as you say, "owe some payback to somebody"..it's okay that the Palestinians are the ones getting the payback for what Europeans did?

Wouldn't it have made more sense to get the "payback" say from Germany? Or any of the countries that allowed the deportation and murder of Jews?

In 1948, the Jewish population of what is now, nebulously because there aren't any official borders and Israel is expanding into what would be a Palestinian state (which Palestinians barely "control" something 44% of)...anyway, in 1948, the Jewish population of about 30% and they owned 6% of the land.

I have friends who are Palestinian exiles...and Christian, every one of them...some people like to make it a Jewish/Muslim thing...but the Christian Palestinians, including one who is an Israeli citizen, get it right in the ass just as much.

The early history of Zionism included discussions of what to do with the folks who actually were inhabiting the region....and plans on how to get them to leave. This was decades before Hitler. They were aware that the folks who were living in "Israel" would object to being forced out.

And before anyone goes with the "but the Arabs aren't native" bullshit, genetic studies have shown otherwise, for the Palesinians. There is some Arabian influx, but the percentage of European admixture in Ashkenazi Jews is just about the same. They are the same people in their roots. Some who stayed a couple thousand years ago remained Jews, some converted to Christianity and then more converted to Islam...

I always ask Americans if the Native Americans who were original started their own movement to reclaim this place...and that eventually involved booting out you? How would you respond? Would you happily say "Okey dokey! Seems fair to me, I'll become a refugee!" Do you think that Canada or Mexico or any neighbouring country would be just happy as hell to absorb the forced out population? Now that won't happen, because the Indian population of this country is now quite small.

But in Palestine/Israel, 700,000 were forced out in 1948 and thereabouts. They didn't leave of their own free will. And here is where reading someone like Morris might make it clearer, again, Morris who is Zionist to the core, admits that most were deliberately forced out and didn't leave because their leaders told them to, a canard often repeated, along with crap like "an empty land for a landless people", etc, etc...oh, and "making the desert bloom"..yeah, sure, except that Israel has to take water from Palestinian aquifers to do it. Israel will never let a Palestinian state happen, if only for the water alone.

To assume that the Palestinians and the surrounding countries are just being unreasonable! without acknowledging that the creation of Israel really fucked up a lot of people's lives is pure wankery. If that can't even be acknowledged then how can "peace" come about.

[CliffByford]

Are you really this stupid or are you just (misleadingly) nitpicking 5% of my post so you can conveniently ignore the other 95%?

I've given you an example of a state that exercises religious tolerance to a degree - Lebanon. You chooce to ignore it, because the fact of the matter is that the Lebanese government is not oppressing Christians - it comes from Syria. Oddly enough, Syria extends religious tolerance to its indigenous (and relatively wealthy) Christian population. Of course, you probably didn't know this because you're a dunce.

Where the fuck did his Tariq Aziz bullshit come into play? I didn't once mention Iraq, and I wouldn't for the simple fact that Hussein's regime oppressed various people due solely to expediency and caprice. Stop throwing out red herrings. You stated that Israel is the only place in the region that granted religious freedom. Lebanon completely disproves that.

[vanitybinge]

Israel really believes in 'love thy neighbor'. Firstly they allow freedom of religion, the only place in the Middle East to do so. This alone speaks volumes. Why aren't other regimes in the area called upon by the UN to do so? Everyone but Muslimes are persecuted and often executed in virtually all Middle Eastern countries but Israel.

What does that have to do with the title? What are you implying here?

Secondly Israel almost only fires when fired upon. There are very few examples of Israel attacking first. As with every army, there will be exceptions, but they are far and few between.

I don't understand how repeated incursions into Lebanon count as defending yourself. You're invading a foreign land. HELLO!

Thirdly they spend their time and money to take care of injured Palestinians. I have never heard of Palestine hospitalizing Israelis in large numbers.That's what happens when you keep blowing up all their hopsitals. This is even more ironic when the injuries the Palestinians are in Israeli hospitals for are due to the Palestinians attacking Israel. This is going above and beyond 'love thy neighbor' all the way to 'love thy enemy'.

You've gone all the way to 'love thy bullshit'

How about the western media demand Palestine allow freedom of religion before being given any more aid by western governments? How about no?Palestine just got another $150 million.. for what, to reward them for being primitive low life scum who still live like it's the year 1452? To reward them for treating women like animals? To reward them for firing rockets into Israel? To reward them for forcing 13 year old girls to marry 50 year old lechers?

How about we do both give them aid and insist they allow that freedom? Foreign aid and diplomatic advocacy are two entirely different things. Do both so they don't have to resort to that bullshit.

Like you don't hate...'From Race to Fallacy' ever a fitting album name for you?

Israel is clearly the superior culture. Inventing stuff like kinekt, pointless as it is to me, it's going to make millions for the USA., They are actually doing useful stuff despite the constant attacks from enemies from all borders. Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the US, even though it's the worlds 100th smallest country. That is nothing short of AMAZING.

I still don't understand what the fuck this has to do with anything. Can you stop blowing gas up my ass and tell me what the fuck your point is? WHY is Isreal 'too good' to Palestine?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1600302/posts

Israelis prefer to do useful things, and not sit in a cave eating food off the floor with their hands and beating one of their three wives for nagging. As is Allahs will.

Yea the Palestinians would love to live in caves forever. Wait what? If Isreal stopped blowing up their fucking houses, they wouldn't have so many fucking holes in the ground! How many caves are in the US for rent? Not that many! Why? Because Isreal is a little better to us than they are to Palestine...by the way, just in the title of this thread, you're acknowledging the existence of a Palestine. Good job. Oh, and where is Palestine prey-tell? Could you tell me where Palestine is? Allah-Damn.

Waiting for all the anti-semite.. sorry, anti-zionists here to tell us all how evil Israel is. How dare they protect themselves from Muslim cowards shooting rockets from schools and hospitals, gladly using their women and children as cover. That way they can point to the demolished rocket bases..errr..hospitals and schools and say:

"the Jews did it".[/quote]
That is the ONLY damn good point you made in this whole thing in this bucket of ethnocentric, hateful, bullshit.

You can't even hate properly. The title of the thread alone kills you. The Isrealis say the Palestinians have a homeland, Palestinians are Jordainian...are you getting it at all? Or are you just out to prove the Jews have the sweetest smelling asses in the Middle East?

[vanitybinge]

http://www.jpost.com/International/Arti ... ?id=173778

Getting back to the BBC, the BBC has *never* taken a stance against this. Their news reports are almost always pro-Palestine and anti-Israel. Israel is always shown as the bad guy, and the Palestinians the helpless victims.

This is the same organization that would be OK with an image of a Bible or Torah being thrown in a garbage can, but not the Koran. Their words.

Do you want to know why, Jackwagon?
The British are the ones that were serving a post-wartime peace-keeping mandate, IN PALESTINE. The British are the ones the Zionists attacked and killed. Please excuse the bias on their part.

So maybe the thread should be called 'The BBC is too good to Palestine'

[lerxstcat]

So Lerx, because the Europeans treated the Jews like lower than shit, and they did, and as you say, "owe some payback to somebody"..it's okay that the Palestinians are the ones getting the payback for what Europeans did?

EVERYBODY has fucked with them in their history, anybody in reach would be as appropriate as anyone else. Also the "Palestinians" are a fabrication. The first chairman of the PLO steadfastly DENIED the existence of a Palestinian people - until HE was appointed first chairman of the newly organized PLO. It was a shell company created by the Arab League after its combined armies couldn't defeat Israel. Palestinians are Jordanians. Go back to Jordan, Jordanians. Simple. Or spread the refugees out amongst the several MILLION square miles of Arab nations that exist.

[bane]

Palestinians are Jordanians. Go back to Jordan, Jordanians. Simple. Or spread the refugees out amongst the several MILLION square miles of Arab nations that exist.

I was born in Texas (as were my parents, and my grandparents, and my great grandparents, I can go back a ways, I have a relative that fought at the Battle of San Jacinto), but Texas was originally in Mexico, so after the Mexicans are somehow given back Texas through some kind of multi national redrawing of the map, I'm supposed to move to what, Cleveland? Take your yarmulke off for a second and think about that dude. As I've been saying all along in this thread. Perspective, it's not just for breakfast anymore.

[vlad]

What Bane said,

Lerx...why do you think Palestinians are Jordanians? And I crack up when someone assumes that all Arabs are the same. That would be like saying all Germanic (larger language family) speakers are the same and if the Welsh succeeded in kicking out the English (hypothetically speaking of course), why shouldn't Sweden or Austria take them in? After all, we are all Germanic speakers!

Again, why do you think that someone from Haifa, whose family had lived there for centuries is a Jordanian?

This is what I mean about the casual brush with the truth that Americans go by when it comes to Israel and the Palestinians. Somebody somewhere said they were (no political motivation there,no siree) and it is taken as gospel.

And again, why would this person whose Chrisitian family was driven from Haifa and never allowed to return want to live in fucking Jordan, That is not his culture or even his dialect, and certainly not his home. Again not all "Arabs" are the same.

Oh and on another canard you repeated, the ethnogenesis of the Palestinians came much earlier. Even Daniel Pipes, no friend of the Palestinians has said he found the first reference back to around 1920 ( and I am sure it pained him to admit to that ). Like a lot of other peoples emerging from the crumbling empires in WW1, the Palestinians, too were reaching towards their own identity. In fact, the term was used prior to WW1. In fact, there was about the same time a joint Syrian/Palestinian movement as, well..but lo! No joint Jordanian/Palestinian movement. It was in 1920 or so that Palestinians decided to seek their own path, apart from Syria.


So all that crap you just said is another example of the "myths" that get taken as gospel in this country. Really, I expect better from you, Lerx.

[SeminiferousButtNoid]

What are you reading?

The BBC, The Guardian, The Independent, Reuters, The political science departments of Oxford, Cambridge, University of London, University of Manchester, Universite Paris-Sorbonne, Universite de Lyon, the editorial board of Le Monde and Liberation, French TF1 Televison. I can keep going.

There are articles that paint Israel in a bad light sometimes to be sure.

Try and find an article defending Israel's self-defense by one of the aforementioned institutions. Try and find an article from one of the aforementioned that defend Israel's right to exist. It's that bad.

Israel isn't made up of a bunch of saints and they've done their part to earn criticism,

Israel has made some poor decisions over the years, particularly The Lavon Affair and their business dealings with South Africa during apartheid. This is however minuscule in comparison to being completely surrounded by nations that have sworn their destruction resulting three major wars, industrial sabotage, and funneling of millions of dollars and materiel to terrorists that have killed over 3,000 Israeli civilians in the past 12 years alone.

but to call the entire mainstream media "anti Israel" like it's some kind of platform is simply untrue.

The majority of Western European journalism and academia are anti-Israel. Some of it is due to antisemitism and some of it is due to the natural inclination of the left wing, Marxist influenced mindset to always patronize the revolutionary, even if that group's methods and ideology are abhorrent and wrong.

The sad and most frustrating thing is that the Palestinians could have their own state tomorrow if they really wanted too. Unfortunately, that isn't what they really want. They want it all.

[lerxstcat]

Palestinians are Jordanians. Go back to Jordan, Jordanians. Simple. Or spread the refugees out amongst the several MILLION square miles of Arab nations that exist.

I was born in Texas (as were my parents, and my grandparents, and my great grandparents, I can go back a ways, I have a relative that fought at the Battle of San Jacinto), but Texas was originally in Mexico, so after the Mexicans are somehow given back Texas through some kind of multi national redrawing of the map, I'm supposed to move to what, Cleveland? Take your yarmulke off for a second and think about that dude. As I've been saying all along in this thread. Perspective, it's not just for breakfast anymore.

Bane, I'm not Jewish, I'm Catholic. But the point is that, IF you wanted to move back to your "ethnic" homeland, then yeah, you'd have to leave the area. But Israel has NEVRR required that they leave the area - only that they accept the sovereignty of Israel.

When I say that if they want to go to their homeland, go back to Jordan, it's because that is where they came from. Or, they could live in Israel as law-abiding citizens OF ISRAEL.

Vlad, I read a history of the Middle East several years ago. I don't recall the title, it was a general history that was in my public library. I think "History of the Middle East" was the actual title. That is the book that said that the so-called Palestinians were eally Arabs of Jordanian descent. Even in the example that you gave, you admit that it was the 1920s and not the distant past when the idea of a Palestinian nation began being talked of. As for having different culture, well I'm skeptical oif that. They can lie to us infidels, remember? So can their advocates in the Western world.

It doesn't change the fact that the first chairman of the PLO denied the existence of a Palestinian people, until he was appointed their chairman.

[bane]

Bane, I'm not Jewish, I'm Catholic. But the point is that, IF you wanted to move back to your "ethnic" homeland, then yeah, you'd have to leave the area.

I know you're not Jewish Lerx. The yarmulke comment was just for effect. As to an "ethnic homeland", I don't have one. Like a lot of Americans, I'm a mutt. The closest thing I have to an ethnic homeland is the area in which I reside, which was kind of my point. I would imagine it's much the same for a lot of Palestinians. I guess it depends on how far back you want to go, but strictly speaking, those people and the Jewish people are originally from the same stock.