Obamacare upheld

[Stupid Goodbye Thread]

People need to stop relying on pundit soundbites and Facebook memes to form their opinions on this matter, and actually research what this bill, even in it's infancy, is going to provide them and future generations.

The benefits and long term cultural change that The AHA is going to provide are going to have a PROFOUND effect on this country. I seriously can not grasp that people are trying to spin this into something that is detrimental to the common man.

[TheMightyMaiden]

Can someone explain how a tremendous increase in the number of patients can be met without a corresponding increase in the number of physicians without compromising healthcare?

[KneelandBobDylan]

Can someone explain how a tremendous increase in the number of patients can be met without a corresponding increase in the number of physicians without compromising healthcare?

Can you stop typing in right-wing talking points?

[Stupid Goodbye Thread]

Can someone explain how a tremendous increase in the number of patients can be met without a corresponding increase in the number of physicians without compromising healthcare?

Part of the budget is to build an infrastructure that will meet the demand (more hospitals, clinics, public health resources, etc), which in turn creates more jobs in healthcare - a shit ton more.

http://www.healthreform.gov/newsroom/pr ... orce.html/

It's a really exciting time to be in the health care field - you of all people should really stop coming to Metal Sludge for your answers.

http://www.healthcare.gov/

[bane]

Bane, I hope this helps.

Gotta say, that article didn't do much to boost my confidence on the success of this thing. I'm anticipating a pretty dramatic increase in my premiums, but I guess we 'll see how it works out.

http://www.barackobama.com/health-care/

Before health care reform, insurance companies routinely spent up to 40% of premiums on overhead and administrative costs. Today, thanks to Obamacare, insurance companies are required to spend at least 80% of your premium on your health care—and if they don’t, you get a rebate. This summer, nearly 12.8 million Americans will start receiving their rebate checks, averaging $151 per household—and totaling more than $1.1 billion.

Interesting. So, a bigger burden is going to be imposed on the health insurance industry, but my costs aren't going to go up?The influx of healthy people who might otherwise go uninsured who will suffer no enforceable penalty if they opt out, will offset the additional expense. Cool. I'll believe it when I see it. If it works out, awesome. Call me a skeptic though.

[TheMightyMaiden]

Can someone explain how a tremendous increase in the number of patients can be met without a corresponding increase in the number of physicians without compromising healthcare?

Part of the budget is to build an infrastructure that will meet the demand (more hospitals, clinics, public health resources, etc), which in turn creates more jobs in healthcare - a shit ton more.

http://www.healthreform.gov/newsroom/pr ... orce.html/

It's a really exciting time to be in the health care field - you of all people should really stop coming to Metal Sludge for your answers.

http://www.healthcare.gov/

Yea I've seen that about the primary care slots. I thought that was interesting as it's the least appealing field for any medical student to enter. I guess we can force all those damn carribean med students to eat up those new spots.

[TheMightyMaiden]

Can someone explain how a tremendous increase in the number of patients can be met without a corresponding increase in the number of physicians without compromising healthcare?

Can you stop typing in right-wing talking points?

I don't blindly follow any party. I don't even vote. It was a curious question. Even with the new primary care slots it'll be interesting to see how this shapes over the project's infancy. Primary care is not sufficient to treat everything, and while it does help the preventative aspect, many diseases won't fit in that way. Residency slots cost money.

I haven't had much time to dissect this act myself. Either way I feel like medicine is the best field in the world, so it wasn't going to affect my decision to enter the field either way. Hence hoping the physician salaries don't go down too much. I think that will push a lot of people away from the field considering all of the years of hard studying/training.

[DEATH ROW JOE]

Interesting. So, a bigger burden is going to be imposed on the health insurance industry, but my costs aren't going to go up?The influx of healthy people who might otherwise go uninsured who will suffer no enforceable penalty if they opt out, will offset the additional expense. Cool. I'll believe it when I see it. If it works out, awesome. Call me a skeptic though.

LMFAO, if you were sincerely concerned rather than merely looking to whine, you would take 5-10 minutes to find out whether anyone has addressed those obvious issues. The mandate is not the only thing offsetting the higher burden placed on health insurance companies.

Here's one analysis on health insurance premiums done by CBO. There are many done by non-partisan groups. The bill impacts the entire nation's health so it's not too hard to find real analysis (as opposed to Luntz talking points.).


An Analysis of Health Insurance Premiums Under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
http://cbo.gov/publication/41792

Average premiums would be 7 percent to 10 percent lower because of a net reduction in costs that insurers incurred to deliver the same amount of insurance coverage to the same group of enrollees. Most of that net reduction would stem from the changes in the rules governing the nongroup market.

[Stupid Goodbye Thread]

Yea I've seen that about the primary care slots. I thought that was interesting as it's the least appealing field for any medical student to enter. I guess we can force all those damn carribean med students to eat up those new spots.

The only time anyone says they want to go into primary care is when they're writing their essays for med school.

Something is going to have to be done about reimbursement rates if they want to actually pull this off. Looks like they're planning on using a lot more NPs and PAs too.

I don't even vote.

You're a grown up now - time to change that.

[brotherplanet]

There are definitely going to be some bumps in the road, but overall it's a good thing this passed. Even in this wretched economy we're still the richest industrialized nation on the Earth and I think we're the only ones who don't have national health care.

Expect stories of woe when it first goes into effect. We'll have some problems in the beginning, but just like when Microsoft beta tests on the general public every time they offer a new version of windows with all the glitches still intact, if our leaders are a little smart, they should fix what eventually shows itself to be wrong with the plan.

EXACTLY! Every western nation on earth has universal health care except us!

Can you believe how fucking stupid and ignorant some Repukes are?? There were actually tweets after the ruling that they're moving to Canada! CANADA! A nation that already has universal health care!

That's actually pretty fucking funny!!!

[Luminiferous]

The only time anyone says they want to go into primary care is when they're writing their essays for med school.

Something is going to have to be done about reimbursement rates if they want to actually pull this off. Looks like they're planning on using a lot more NPs and PAs too.

So are you saying HairbangersJunkie may be able to find higher employment?

[Danzig in the Dark]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-tr ... 34706.html

Hate Obamacare? Don't Worry, Here Are Some Countries You Can Move To

On the heels of the announcement of the Supreme Court's decision to uphold the majority of the Affordable Care Act, Buzzfeed released a compilation of tweets by outraged citizens claiming that they were going to move to Canada in an effort to avoid Obamacare.

While I may not agree with their utter disappointment at the prospect of roughly 40 million uninsured Americans being granted access to affordable health care, as a dual citizen of the U.S. and Canada, I feel somewhat of a responsibility to inform these people, in addition to those who have similar feelings but somehow held back from voicing them on Twitter, that Canada probably isn't the best place to go to avoid universal health care. In fact, it hasn't been since 1966.

While this may come as a disappointment to some who were hoping to blissfully drink Tim Horton's coffee while observing impoverished people die from treatable ailments, fear not: There are plenty of countries that you can move to where you'll have absolutely no government-mandated access to health care.

Perhaps you might consider moving to Haiti. Not only would you be able to dodge socialist doctors, but you might be able to avoid medical professionals altogether: The country only has 25 physicians per 100,000 people. While access to clean water may be a bit spotty, this is more than made up for by the short life expectancy and the absence of Barack Obamas. Pack your swimsuit!

But maybe Haiti is still a little too close to our socialist empire for comfort. (Dear God, what if America's newfound brand of Marxist, fascist dictatorship were to spread?!) Don't worry, because the majority of the continent of Africa is far away from both Obamacare -- and any sort of care whatsoever. In fact, for you diehard libertarians who hate having your government provide things, there aren't many places better-suited for you than Liberia. Not only will the Liberian government not provide you with health care, but it will also fail to provide for just about every other basic human need. It's no coincidence that the country's motto is, "The love of liberty brought us here," because nothing represents the anti-Obamacare brand of liberty than a very high risk of catching a serious infectious disease and a low likelihood of finding the resources to treat it. As a bonus for you fans of the Second Amendment who feel that it's necessary to have a gun on you at all times, you're going to love this beautiful land where that's probably a pretty good idea.

Now, I know what you're thinking: "But what if I hate Obamacare and also love human-rights violations? Where can I live to satisfy both these passions?" Worry not, friend, because I have four beautiful syllables for you: Turkmenistan. The former Soviet region not only abolished its free public health care in 2004, but it was also once again named as a chronic abuser of human rights by the United States State Department this past May.

There's really no reason to suffer through the grave injustice of universal health care when there is such a robust sampling of countries that (are not industrialized and) will happily allow you to not experience Obamacare. Granted, many have been plagued by poverty, unemployment, and civil war, but how is living in those conditions that different from life under the Obama administration? Have you seen that Rick Santorum ad? Spooky!

Of course, your other option is to continue to utilize your private health-care plan, as you are entitled to do, while taking pride in the fact that your country, which currently spends much more per capita on health care than any other nation in the world, has found a way to increase coverage for its citizens while reducing the deficit.

On the other hand, I hear Bangladesh is lovely this time of year.

[johnnycache]

Can someone explain how a tremendous increase in the number of patients can be met without a corresponding increase in the number of physicians without compromising healthcare?

Can you stop typing in right-wing talking points?

I don't blindly follow any party. I don't even vote. It was a curious question. Even with the new primary care slots it'll be interesting to see how this shapes over the project's infancy. Primary care is not sufficient to treat everything, and while it does help the preventative aspect, many diseases won't fit in that way. Residency slots cost money.

I haven't had much time to dissect this act myself. Either way I feel like medicine is the best field in the world, so it wasn't going to affect my decision to enter the field either way. Hence hoping the physician salaries don't go down too much. I think that will push a lot of people away from the field considering all of the years of hard studying/training.

You subscribe to a false world view where the uninsured die quietly in their tenements and cost us nothing. This is not the case - the uninsured are the most expensive patients. They put off preventative care until their conditions are critical, they are charged non-negotiated, non arbitrated rates, and they incur additional collections and p/l writoff expenses when they default.

A good way to put it is this: There are two forms of healthcare. Public healthcare and letting people die in the streets. We don't do the latter, so we do the former. It's a question of confronting it, organizing it, and making it fairer.

[RATTdrools]

Public support for Obamacare is increasing and the crazy Repukes don't have an alternative!

Did you see Bohner and McConnel being interviewed on Fox News and Face the Nation? LMAO at them staring into space when asked what GOP plan would replace Obamacare!

[bane]

Interesting. So, a bigger burden is going to be imposed on the health insurance industry, but my costs aren't going to go up?The influx of healthy people who might otherwise go uninsured who will suffer no enforceable penalty if they opt out, will offset the additional expense. Cool. I'll believe it when I see it. If it works out, awesome. Call me a skeptic though.

LMFAO, if you were sincerely concerned rather than merely looking to whine, you would take 5-10 minutes to find out whether anyone has addressed those obvious issues. The mandate is not the only thing offsetting the higher burden placed on health insurance companies.

Here's one analysis on health insurance premiums done by CBO. There are many done by non-partisan groups. The bill impacts the entire nation's health so it's not too hard to find real analysis (as opposed to Luntz talking points.).


An Analysis of Health Insurance Premiums Under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
http://cbo.gov/publication/41792

Average premiums would be 7 percent to 10 percent lower because of a net reduction in costs that insurers incurred to deliver the same amount of insurance coverage to the same group of enrollees. Most of that net reduction would stem from the changes in the rules governing the nongroup market.

And if you weren't so fucking pedantic, you might actually do a little real research yourself and see through the bulldhit . There are plenty of head nodders that will tell us all what we want to hear. I've yet to see a single intelligent argument that says our healthcare costs won't increase. As I said earlier, I think this law is, at least fundamentally, a good thing, but don't blow sunshine up our asses. It will cost us all more. If you've convinced yourself otherwise, you're a fool.

[Stupid Goodbye Thread]

How do you figure it's going to cost more? Are you talking about to the average person?

Because I'm here to tell you, if you have insurance, you are already absorbing the cost of the uninsured. Have you ever looked at what shit costs when you go to the hospital or the doctor? $28 for a box of tissue? $7.50 for one Tylenol? How do you think healthcare providers recoup their losses? They do it like any other business that incurs losses - they pass it along to the paying customer by way of inflation or they get money from tax levies set up for indigent care on the county level. Either way, it's already coming out of your pocket - just not all in one place.

I know you have doubts about how it will be enforced, but I don't think I'm a fool for seeing the logic in taking a little from everyone instead of more from a few and how that will translate to lower costs across the board.

Besides, the real victory here is the eventuality of a single-payer system.

[Aquanetsuperhold]

Poor Mitt- he doesn't get theholiday off from back-peddling.


Mitt Romney says health care penalty is a tax

By Christopher Rowland, Globe Staff
WASHINGTON -- Mitt Romney Wednesday reversed the position staked out by his own campaign just two days before and said the penalty levied against Americans who do not buy health insurance under President Obama’s health care overhaul is ``a tax.’’

The Supreme Court ruled last week that the enforcement mechanism for the individual mandate in the 2010 health care expansion -- a penalty payment made to the Internal Revenue Service -- qualifies as a tax.

On Monday, Romney spokesman Eric Fehrnstrom said Romney did not agree that it was a tax, and considered it a penalty. The distinction is politically important because the former Republican governor imposed a similar levy on Massachusetts residents who do not obtain health insurance as part of the Bay State’s landmark health care overhaul.

In an interview with CBS news Wednesday, Romney made a startling reversal of Fehrnstrom’s statements. While not addressing Fehrnstrom’s remarks directly, he said he accepts that the penalty, as determined by the Supreme Court, is a tax.

``The majority of the court said it is a tax, therefore it is a tax. The majority has spoken,’’ Romney said. “There is no way around that.’’

He said he believes Obama broke a pledge not to raise taxes on the middle class.

The interview was done as Romney vacations in Wolfeboro, N.H. The presumptive Republican presidential nominee participated in the town’s July 4 parade.


Shaking hands along the parade route, Romney was told by someone in the crowd that the health care penalty was a tax.

“I agree,’’ Romney replied.

The change puts Romney in step with Republicans who have been hammering Obama over the Supreme Court’s tax determination. But it also leaves Romney open to counter-charges that he imposed a new tax on Massachusetts residents as governor. Romney did not address that question in the CBS interview.

[Aquanetsuperhold]

Some of the other lies, half truths, and flip flops. This guy can't think for himself- he's too busy trying to be a canidate to acutally be a free thinking man in his own right. Whata pussy!

It was not my desire to go off and serve in Vietnam.' [1]
'I longed in many respects to actually be in Vietnam and be representing our country there.

'I think the minimum wage ought to keep pace with inflation.' [1]
'There's no question raising the minimum wage excessively causes a loss of jobs.'

'I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.' [1]
'I did not see it with my own eyes.'

'I will work and fight for stem cell research.' [1]
'In the end, I became persuaded that the stem-cell debate was grounded in a false premise.'

'I like mandates. The mandates work.' [1]
'I think it's unconstitutional on the 10th Amendment front.'

'I respect and will protect a woman's right to choose.' [1]
'I never really called myself pro-choice.'

[RATTdrools]

It's just common fucking sense premiums go down! When you have more people paying into the system costs go down!

The fucking crazy Repukes want to wait till your sick before you pay then costs will be sky high!

[soulonfire]

Maybe people should try this quiz. Apparently if you get 10 out of 10 right, you know more about the ACA than 99.6% of all Americans.
http://healthreform.kff.org/quizzes/hea ... -quiz.aspx

[brotherplanet]

Some of the other lies, half truths, and flip flops. This guy can't think for himself- he's too busy trying to be a canidate to acutally be a free thinking man in his own right. Whata pussy!

It was not my desire to go off and serve in Vietnam.' [1]
'I longed in many respects to actually be in Vietnam and be representing our country there.

'I think the minimum wage ought to keep pace with inflation.' [1]
'There's no question raising the minimum wage excessively causes a loss of jobs.'

'I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.' [1]
'I did not see it with my own eyes.'

'I will work and fight for stem cell research.' [1]
'In the end, I became persuaded that the stem-cell debate was grounded in a false premise.'

'I like mandates. The mandates work.' [1]
'I think it's unconstitutional on the 10th Amendment front.'

'I respect and will protect a woman's right to choose.' [1]
'I never really called myself pro-choice.'

Romney's only hope is for the unemployment rate to stay at about 8%. If that happens come election day he stands a chance at winning.

[Love_Industry]

EXACTLY! Every western nation on earth has universal health care except us!

Can you believe how fucking stupid and ignorant some Repukes are?? There were actually tweets after the ruling that they're moving to Canada! CANADA! A nation that already has universal health care!

Also laughing at those calling it communism or socialism. The Soviet Union never had universal health care, neither did China. Not sure if any of the European communist states had, actually, it was usually provided through your employment in some way (sound familiar?). But quite a few of them restricted (Soviet Union, East Germany) or banned (Romania, Albania) abortions...

[RATTdrools]

EXACTLY! Every western nation on earth has universal health care except us!

Can you believe how fucking stupid and ignorant some Repukes are?? There were actually tweets after the ruling that they're moving to Canada! CANADA! A nation that already has universal health care!

Also laughing at those calling it communism or socialism. The Soviet Union never had universal health care, neither did China. Not sure if any of the European communist states had, actually, it was usually provided through your employment in some way (sound familiar?). But quite a few of them restricted (Soviet Union, East Germany) or banned (Romania, Albania) abortions...

LOL..crazy Repukes! Police, fire, and thousands of schools are socialism too so let's get rid of them too!

[Love_Industry]

But quite a few of them restricted (Soviet Union, East Germany) or banned (Romania, Albania) abortions...

LOL..crazy Repukes! Police, fire, and thousands of schools are socialism too so let's get rid of them too!

Restricting abortion is socialism! And it´s the Big Bad Evil Government that does it!

[MotleyMaiden]

Also laughing at those calling it communism or socialism. The Soviet Union never had universal health care, neither did China. Not sure if any of the European communist states had, actually, it was usually provided through your employment in some way (sound familiar?). But quite a few of them restricted (Soviet Union, East Germany) or banned (Romania, Albania) abortions...

LOL..crazy Repukes! Police, fire, and thousands of schools are socialism too so let's get rid of them too! [/quote]


Yes, yes,...YES! Lets get rid of ALL these pesky socialist programs. We are NOT a socialist country. I, who, have no kids, should not have to pay to educate other people's demon spawn. Privatize all schools. If parents can't afford the tuition, oh well, the kids can go to work in a factory or a work camp of some kind. Just think how much that cheap labor would help increase profits for all of those good American companies. Why I bet they would be stumbling over each other to bring jobs back to the US.

As for fire and police. There will be a yearly fee due Jan 1 for say, $2000. If you don't pay it and call 911 later in the year, too bad, so sad. Hope a wayward firecracker doesn't land on your house on July 4th. Hope that crack head neighbor doesn't break into your house.

We can make ALL roads toll roads and everyone can get smart tags. The money will get deducted from your account each month. That way you only pay for the amount you drive.

People without health insurance- fuck them- this is a CAPITALIST society, if they can't pay, they don't get served. Oh well, the world is overpopulated anyway. And after they die, if the family can't afford a burial, they can donate the body to a medical school- that shit is free.

And NO regulating the markets. Let the corporations do whatever they want. They only want what is best for us consumers. And if they are caught being corrupt and knowingly doing things that are unsafe and unhealthy, well they should get to SUE US for ruining their reputation. After all we should not be so fragile. Our bodies should be able to take a few carcinogens and toxins. We should also be totally responsible for what we are putting in our bodies. We didn't do that, well, our fault, Too bad your kid died, now you get to pay Kraft, $100,000 for besmirching their reputation with that nasty business of your kid's death.

Think of all the money that would be available to create more jobs.

[RATTdrools]

LOL...there's a video out there from 2006 where Romney says how having a health care MANDATE saves you money because more people pay into the system!

Romney on video supporting Obama's vision!

[Scoundrel]

Jesus Christ.


The stupidity in this thread goes up ten orders of magnitude with each additional post.

If they start making small payments early, and that money is managed well, it can pay for the average person and part of a bell curve bender.

Are you referring to a specific bell curve calculation in particular here or are you simply alluding to a measurement tool that you remember from statistics class?

Just curious.





Considering how incapable of brevity I am no matter how hard I try, and the breadth of issues to address here, I'm still debating if I want to unleash the gargantuan quantity of rape this thread deserves; given that it seems to have been dead for over a week now.

[Stupid Goodbye Thread]

Rape it up.

[MurrayFiend]

Wouldn't it be funny if this thread got raped by, like, five guys right now?

[Danzig in the Dark]