Killeverything's (New)NeverEndingBaseballThread

[JakeYonkel]

Ellsbury's value was much higher 2 years ago. But maybe he'll pull a Cano and rebound. There were actually talks of NY trading Cano for Matt Kemp a year or two ago.

All I gotta say is... I'm glad the Yankees didn't trade for Santana, and you should be glad Boston didn't either. With the packages both teams were putting together that would have been a huge letdown.

[SkyDog112046]

It's waaaay too early to say the season is a bust.

Ortiz is done though, I won't argue that.

What the hell were you expecting out of Beltre and Cameron? They are two guys with poor plate discipline and good power. And Cameron's like 38, so yeah, he's 'old.' Once again this is no surprise.

I think Scutaro is a nice player and he was the best SS available, even if last year may have been a fluke. He was a career utility player before Toronto handed him the SS job.

Boston's built for pitching and defense, and if Lester gives up a 7 spot like he did today, it won't really matter what happens. The front 3 is great, let them get going and pitching like they're capable of before you go crying that the sky is falling.

Shitty offense is no surprise. They're not on Oakland's level, and they'll score some runs, but this isn't a 900 run offense featuring prime Manny & Ortiz in the middle of it anymore.

I'm usually an optimist when it comes to the Red Sox, but I got the same feeling heading this past off season as I did heading into 1997. I just don't like the moves they made.

Building a team for defense in the AL East is a joke. They play 81 games in Fenway where defense in left is mainly learning how the ball comes off the wall and another 27 road games in stadiums where left is pretty short. A big bat in that spot is far more important than a glove.

Scutaro was not the best SS available. They had a better defensive SS who worked well with Pedroia but they let him go yet again. Why sign a 38 year old guy to play center? Or if Theo is so into this stupid fucking geek stats then why bring in an undisciplined guy who lost his power when he stopped juicing to play 3rd?

They can try to get cute with numbers to try to make themselves look smart but the majority of championships have been won with pitching, defense up the middle, and power at the corners. Ellsbury in left. Bwaahhahahahahaha.

My preference would have been for them to just call it a rebuilding year and bring up a bunch of kids and give them some playing time. The Sox are now 4-8 and managed only 1 run yet again today. This is an 85 win 3rd place at-best team.

[killeverything]

It's waaaay too early to say the season is a bust.

Ortiz is done though, I won't argue that.

What the hell were you expecting out of Beltre and Cameron? They are two guys with poor plate discipline and good power. And Cameron's like 38, so yeah, he's 'old.' Once again this is no surprise.

I think Scutaro is a nice player and he was the best SS available, even if last year may have been a fluke. He was a career utility player before Toronto handed him the SS job.

Boston's built for pitching and defense, and if Lester gives up a 7 spot like he did today, it won't really matter what happens. The front 3 is great, let them get going and pitching like they're capable of before you go crying that the sky is falling.

Shitty offense is no surprise. They're not on Oakland's level, and they'll score some runs, but this isn't a 900 run offense featuring prime Manny & Ortiz in the middle of it anymore.

I'm usually an optimist when it comes to the Red Sox, but I got the same feeling heading this past off season as I did heading into 1997. I just don't like the moves they made.

Building a team for defense in the AL East is a joke. They play 81 games in Fenway where defense in left is mainly learning how the ball comes off the wall and another 27 road games in stadiums where left is pretty short. A big bat in that spot is far more important than a glove.

Scutaro was not the best SS available. They had a better defensive SS who worked well with Pedroia but they let him go yet again. Why sign a 38 year old guy to play center? Or if Theo is so into this stupid fucking geek stats then why bring in an undisciplined guy who lost his power when he stopped juicing to play 3rd?

They can try to get cute with numbers to try to make themselves look smart but the majority of championships have been won with pitching, defense up the middle, and power at the corners. Ellsbury in left. Bwaahhahahahahaha.

My preference would have been for them to just call it a rebuilding year and bring up a bunch of kids and give them some playing time. The Sox are now 4-8 and managed only 1 run yet again today. This is an 85 win 3rd place at-best team.

I think everyone knows it's a rebuilding year. They just can't call it that with their whole "Red Sox Nation" shit.

I'm not throwing in the towel yet. If this team starts clicking and makes the Playoffs, you want nothing to do with them in a short series.

[JakeYonkel]

"Rebuilding" doesn't fly in a major market.

The Mets should have done the same thing. Instead they've been forced to throw money at the token big names while not addressing actual needs. And they're awful.

Back to Boston though, if New York and Tampa pull sizeably ahead by the All Star break or so... I would seriously look to move Papelbon (assuming Bard can handle the job). His value is sky high and they could really get something for him now, with a replacement in waiting. Especially since they're not going to lock him up anyway.

[killeverything]

"Rebuilding" doesn't fly in a major market.

The Mets should have done the same thing. Instead they've been forced to throw money at the token big names while not addressing actual needs. And they're awful.

Back to Boston though, if New York and Tampa pull sizeably ahead by the All Star break or so... I would seriously look to move Papelbon (assuming Bard can handle the job). His value is sky high and they could really get something for him now, with a replacement in waiting. Especially since they're not going to lock him up anyway.

I'm not sure Bard can handle the job yet. Closer's who can are so fucking rare, and if they do one year, they can't the next.

I can't say I blame Papelbon for wanting to maximize his earnings. I also don't think his stock is as high as it was either. He seems to not be able to work his splitter into his repetoire anymore, and hitters are sitting on his fastball when his location is slightly off.

The problem with bullpen's and their unpredictability. I wouldn't be comfortable moving him to leave a possible void. A big bat isn't going to mean shit if the lead is blown in the ninth.

[SkyDog112046]

I'm not sure Bard can handle the job yet. Closer's who can are so fucking rare, and if they do one year, they can't the next.

I can't say I blame Papelbon for wanting to maximize his earnings. I also don't think his stock is as high as it was either. He seems to not be able to work his splitter into his repetoire anymore, and hitters are sitting on his fastball when his location is slightly off.

The problem with bullpen's and their unpredictability. I wouldn't be comfortable moving him to leave a possible void. A big bat isn't going to mean shit if the lead is blown in the ninth.

Yeah, but without a big bat in the lineup they aren't going to have many leads for a closer to blow. If they think they are going to lose Papelbon then they may as well package him for something. I would have to think that Pap plus a couple of prospects could land a very good player in return.

[killeverything]

I'm not sure Bard can handle the job yet. Closer's who can are so fucking rare, and if they do one year, they can't the next.

I can't say I blame Papelbon for wanting to maximize his earnings. I also don't think his stock is as high as it was either. He seems to not be able to work his splitter into his repetoire anymore, and hitters are sitting on his fastball when his location is slightly off.

The problem with bullpen's and their unpredictability. I wouldn't be comfortable moving him to leave a possible void. A big bat isn't going to mean shit if the lead is blown in the ninth.

Yeah, but without a big bat in the lineup they aren't going to have many leads for a closer to blow. If they think they are going to lose Papelbon then they may as well package him for something. I would have to think that Pap plus a couple of prospects could land a very good player in return.

If by "a couple of prospects" you mean Ellsbury, I'm all fucking for it.

[killeverything]

I'm not sure Bard can handle the job yet. Closer's who can are so fucking rare, and if they do one year, they can't the next.

I can't say I blame Papelbon for wanting to maximize his earnings. I also don't think his stock is as high as it was either. He seems to not be able to work his splitter into his repetoire anymore, and hitters are sitting on his fastball when his location is slightly off.

The problem with bullpen's and their unpredictability. I wouldn't be comfortable moving him to leave a possible void. A big bat isn't going to mean shit if the lead is blown in the ninth.

Yeah, but without a big bat in the lineup they aren't going to have many leads for a closer to blow. If they think they are going to lose Papelbon then they may as well package him for something. I would have to think that Pap plus a couple of prospects could land a very good player in return.

If by "a couple of prospects" you mean Ellsbury. I'm all fucking for it.

[SkyDog112046]

If by "a couple of prospects" you mean Ellsbury. I'm all fucking for it.

I'd trade him in a heartbeat but I don't think he is worth that much. The time to trade him would have been right after the 07 WS.

The trouble with Ellsbury comes down to - what is he? He's fast and runs the bases well but has no power whatsoever and his OBP isn't good. He covers a lot of ground in the field but has a weak arm so he can't even hold runners up. On the surface he looks like a prototypical NL guy but the poor OBP and weak arm kill that option.

Right now I think he isn't much more than a 4th outfielder/pinch runner, and what is the value in that? Would SD take him as part of a package for Gonzales? Does Ellsbury & Bowden & Anderson plus another lower level prospect not named Kelly or Iglesias get it done?

[killeverything]

If by "a couple of prospects" you mean Ellsbury. I'm all fucking for it.

I'd trade him in a heartbeat but I don't think he is worth that much. The time to trade him would have been right after the 07 WS.

The trouble with Ellsbury comes down to - what is he? He's fast and runs the bases well but has no power whatsoever and his OBP isn't good. He covers a lot of ground in the field but has a weak arm so he can't even hold runners up. On the surface he looks like a prototypical NL guy but the poor OBP and weak arm kill that option.

Right now I think he isn't much more than a 4th outfielder/pinch runner, and what is the value in that? Would SD take him as part of a package for Gonzales? Does Ellsbury & Bowden & Anderson plus another lower level prospect not named Kelly or Iglesias get it done?

Where would you put Gonzalez? I wouldn't want to move Youkilis off first. Especially considering third base is a more difficult position, and usually shortens player's careers ( knees ). Add that to the fact that 3rd is now manned by Beltre who isn't going anywhere.

Even though he's done. Ortiz is your DH. You don't bring in a bat like Gonzalez ( who might respond to the AL East like Holliday did in Oakland ), and make him a part time DH.....with Lowell....and Papi. As much as the loss of power sucks. I think the organization is doing the right thing by giving Ortiz ABs. That guy has done so much for the team.

[SkyDog112046]

Where would you put Gonzalez? I wouldn't want to move Youkilis off first. Especially considering third base is a more difficult position, and usually shortens player's careers ( knees ). Add that to the fact that 3rd is now manned by Beltre who isn't going anywhere.

Even though he's done. Ortiz is your DH. You don't bring in a bat like Gonzalez ( who might respond to the AL East like Holliday did in Oakland ), and make him a part time DH.....with Lowell....and Papi. As much as the loss of power sucks. I think the organization is doing the right thing by giving Ortiz ABs. That guy has done so much for the team.

First off Theo goes into rehab and admits he was smoking crack during the offseason. That is about the only thing that can explain away the stupid signings over the winter. Then Lucchino pulls the trigger on the Gonzalez deal, same way it was LL who did the Beckett & Lowell for Ramirez deal that led to the 2007 WS.

Gonzalez goes to 1st and Youk goes to 3rd. Beltre gets dealt, Lowell becomes the DH and Papi goes to Pawtucket to work it out and see if he has anything left. Then put Hermida in left. That should upgrade the power numbers at 4 positions without sacrificing much defense.

[JakeYonkel]

You could also just DH Gonzalez and leave Lowell as your backup corner IF/pinch hitter.

Either way Ortiz is causing the logjam since he can't play defense and isn't hitting.

At least his contract will be up after this year. Hopefully for you guys this doesn't wind up like Bernie Williams and the Yankees. Bernie wanted to keep playing but he just wasn't a good player anymore, and I think the Yankees brought him back a season or two more than they should have. Finally it ended in a somewhat ugly divorce though it seems both sides have buried the hatchet.

It stems from keeping a guy around to "do right by him." I know that Ortiz will be given a lot of line to hang himself from since he was part of the first two World Series teams in forever and has been an affable team guy (unlike Manny), but product in 2003-2008 has little to nothing to do with that roster spot in 2010. Call me a heartless bastard, but the ride was nice, take care.

[SkyDog112046]

You could also just DH Gonzalez and leave Lowell as your backup corner IF/pinch hitter.

Either way Ortiz is causing the logjam since he can't play defense and isn't hitting.

At least his contract will be up after this year. Hopefully for you guys this doesn't wind up like Bernie Williams and the Yankees. Bernie wanted to keep playing but he just wasn't a good player anymore, and I think the Yankees brought him back a season or two more than they should have. Finally it ended in a somewhat ugly divorce though it seems both sides have buried the hatchet.

It stems from keeping a guy around to "do right by him." I know that Ortiz will be given a lot of line to hang himself from since he was part of the first two World Series teams in forever and has been an affable team guy (unlike Manny), but product in 2003-2008 has little to nothing to do with that roster spot in 2010. Call me a heartless bastard, but the ride was nice, take care.

Ortiz's started to break down a few years ago, his numbers have been declining for several years, and last year he was a liability for almost half the season. Likable or not he shouldn't be allowed 200 or so at-bats in order to try to get himself into game shape. If he's hurt he should be on the DL, if he needs to work on his swing he should be in the minors, and if he's done as most people seem to think he shouldn't be on the roster. The balance of $12M for the rest of the season makes a pretty nice severance package.

[killeverything]

You could also just DH Gonzalez and leave Lowell as your backup corner IF/pinch hitter.

Either way Ortiz is causing the logjam since he can't play defense and isn't hitting.

At least his contract will be up after this year. Hopefully for you guys this doesn't wind up like Bernie Williams and the Yankees. Bernie wanted to keep playing but he just wasn't a good player anymore, and I think the Yankees brought him back a season or two more than they should have. Finally it ended in a somewhat ugly divorce though it seems both sides have buried the hatchet.

It stems from keeping a guy around to "do right by him." I know that Ortiz will be given a lot of line to hang himself from since he was part of the first two World Series teams in forever and has been an affable team guy (unlike Manny), but product in 2003-2008 has little to nothing to do with that roster spot in 2010. Call me a heartless bastard, but the ride was nice, take care.

I just don't see it happening logistically. Since the team's not "clicking" right now anyways. I don't see a problem with letting Ortiz play out his last season with some dignity. They're just playing fundamentally bad ball around. You could have Manny back ( that Manny ), and they would still be losing. I don't think it's as simple as "well all they need to do is add ISO".

I also don't think there's anyway they could move Beltre. While he has been really good out of the gate so far, I don't see other team's lining up for his services.

Now Ellsbury OTOH. Can steal a lot of bases, and Sports Center shows highlights of his. So if they can unload him? I've been cussing at the TV, Gammons' columns, Gammons' shows, Baseball Prospectus, and anyone within earshot that they better not believe the hype, and trade that motherfucker while his stock is so high since 2007. Now is the time to unload him. I'm sure they can get something...........right?

[SkyDog112046]

I don't see a problem with letting Ortiz play out his last season with some dignity.

But I don't think a .173 BA with 0 HR's and all the scrutiny he is now facing is playing with dignity. To put it in perspective, as of today he is being out-hit by Ellsbury. The only way he'd have less dignity at this point is if he went to the plate in a clown suit.

[killeverything]

I don't see a problem with letting Ortiz play out his last season with some dignity.

But I don't think a .173 BA with 0 HR's and all the scrutiny he is now facing is playing with dignity. To put it in perspective, as of today he is being out-hit by Ellsbury. The only way he'd have less dignity at this point is if he went to the plate in a clown suit.

I'm saying DFA him or something. I like the fact their giving him a chance to try to work it out. That's what I mean. Give him a chance first.

[Machado]

Over the weekend A-Rod his his first HR of the season.

Tex also hit his first yesterday and ended up with a couple more hits.
His avg is still awful.

Pettitte went 8 innings yesterday. I need to look up the last time he pitched 8 innings.

[JakeYonkel]

Pettitte went 8 innings yesterday. I need to look up the last time he pitched 8 innings.

August 31 last season.

[Machado]

sox lose again today.

that's a 4 game sweep

ortiz hitless again

[SkyDog112046]

4-9. Swept at home. Lifeless. How the hell can they keep sending Ortiz & Nancy Drew out there? It's time to shake things up.

[killeverything]

If there is one thing I have confidence in the FO in. It's the ability to shake things up when need be. Unfortunately there's no Nomah to get rid of.

Ellsbury is a big deal with the pink hats, but it's not the same.

[Machado]

If there is one thing I have confidence in the FO in. It's the ability to shake things up when need be. Unfortunately there's no Nomah to get rid of.

Ellsbury is a big deal with the pink hats, but it's not the same.

Which problem is the biggest?
ortiz getting off to the slow start
or
drew getting off to a slow start

perhaps the clubhouse is fractured a bit?
i'm sure tito will sit certain players in order to give
them a wake up call.
was it last year in seattle when tito sat down ortiz for a couple days back in May?

[killeverything]

If there is one thing I have confidence in the FO in. It's the ability to shake things up when need be. Unfortunately there's no Nomah to get rid of.

Ellsbury is a big deal with the pink hats, but it's not the same.

Which problem is the biggest?
ortiz getting off to the slow start
or
drew getting off to a slow start

perhaps the clubhouse is fractured a bit?
i'm sure tito will sit certain players in order to give
them a wake up call.
was it last year in seattle when tito sat down ortiz for a couple days back in May?

Yep it was two games then they moved him down in the line-up.

I think the problem isn't one thing. Yeah it sucks to have a hole in the line-up, but when Lester is having control issues on his four-seamer it doesn't matter. Or when Buchholz has a 14" break on his slider, that's popped up to Mike Cameron ( argueably one of the best defensive outfielders in baseball ), and it pops out of his glove.

It's just not clicking. It's absurd to expect that to continue though. It sucks but those of us who remember pre-2004 can deal with it.

[SkyDog112046]

It's just not clicking. It's absurd to expect that to continue though. It sucks but those of us who remember pre-2004 can deal with it.

This isn't like pre-2004. The Red Sox more often than not came out of the gate fast and competed for a playoff spot only to either fade down the stretch or blow it in excruciating fashion once they got to the playoffs. And they were almost always fun to watch.

This is different. This is completely sucking all the way around while not being the least bit entertaining. Theo brought in players that aren't fun to watch, aren't really guys you want to root for, and at this point are on target to lose 110 games. I would have preferred that they called up some of the young players and given them a shot. At least it would be interesting to watch them.

[JakeYonkel]

I know I wasn't the only one saying the Beltre/Cameron signings were dumb, and I know it's only been a couple of weeks, but damn.

Ultimately Lackey and Lester will be right and if the team makes the playoffs, the pitching and defense thing will be tough to overcome in a short series.

However can they get there through another 145 games? That I don't know. The Yankees (notorious slow starters) look GREAT, and that's with Teixeira hitting about half his weight, and the Rays look even better. Scary good.

[Machado]

Yankees begin a very long road trip today.
at the a's, at the angels, at the o's

Vasquez needs to pitch well tonight. He has made 2 starts and neither has been impressive.


As much as I like seeing the red sox lose games, I'm not ready to count anybody out. Two weeks into the season is so early.
Then again, when I see bill hall playing ss or cf, I get the idea superior players are getting a day off(which give the opponent a huge advantage)

[Machado]

BOSTON -- Boston Red Sox center fielder Mike Cameron has been diagnosed with an abdominal tear, described by a team source as a type of sports hernia. Judging by the experience of other players who have had similar injuries, it could require surgery that would sideline the 37-year-old outfielder for at least a month to six weeks.

Cameron will be placed on the disabled list later Tuesday, the source said, with outfielder Josh Reddick called up from Triple-A Pawtucket to take his place.

Ian Kinsler, the Rangers' All-Star second baseman, missed the final 42 games of the 2008 season with a sports hernia in his abdominal wall, undergoing surgery on Sept. 11.

Josh Hamilton, the Rangers' All-Star outfielder, missed 30 games last season with a partial tear of his abdominal muscle that also required surgery.

Other players who have had similar injuries recently are Phillies outfielder Raul Ibanez, who revealed he had played with a small abdominal tear last season before having surgery in the offseason, and Mariners pitcher Cliff Lee, who has been sidelined since mid-March with an abdominal strain and hopes to return to the rotation around May 1.

Sports hernias generally occur, according to Dr. William Brown, a sports hernia specialist writing on his website, because of a weakening of the muscles or tendons in a thin region of the abdominal wall. Once overexerted, a muscle tear occurs inside the groin.

Cameron, who passed a kidney stone late last week, was scratched from the lineup Monday and went to Massachusetts General Hospital to find out the cause of his abdominal distress. After Monday's 8-2 Red Sox loss to the Rays, manager Terry Francona said a CT scan ruled out another kidney stone for Cameron.

Reddick arrives just in time for the Red Sox, who are in dire need of outfield help. Along with Cameron, left fielder Jacoby Ellsbury has also been out, missing the last seven games as he recovers from bruised left ribs. He doesn't appear close to coming back.

[WhiteHouseSubsAC]

ESPN just reported that the president of the Colorado Rockies was found dead in his hotel room.

[Machado]

He is currently on the DL.
Had Tommy John surgery Aug 2009
The Office of the Commissioner of Baseball announced today that Cincinnati Reds pitcher Edinson Volquez has received a 50-game suspension for testing positive for a performance-enhancing substance in violation of Major League Baseball’s Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program.

The suspension of Volquez will be effective tomorrow, April 21, 2010.

[killeverything]

I know I wasn't the only one saying the Beltre/Cameron signings were dumb, and I know it's only been a couple of weeks, but damn.

Ultimately Lackey and Lester will be right and if the team makes the playoffs, the pitching and defense thing will be tough to overcome in a short series.

However can they get there through another 145 games? That I don't know. The Yankees (notorious slow starters) look GREAT, and that's with Teixeira hitting about half his weight, and the Rays look even better. Scary good.

Actually I liked the Beltre signing. I've made it no secret I value defense, especially in the infield. So that one to me was a no brainer.

The problem with Cameron ( aside from age ), is he is a defensive wizard. They brought him in to train Jacoby. Which tells me that the FO still hasnt' accepted the fact that we've seen the motherfucker's peak already. Talk about holding on too long. Wily Mo Pena anyone?

Doing those pretty much locked up all the positions for a major trade ( I still wasn't sold on what it would hypothetically cost to get Gonzalez ).

I still think the team could very much "right the ship" soon. Reddick fucking killed it in AAA this ST. So maybe his bat in the line-up could bring a boost. The potential problem to me is, is that it's 6 weeks of having both Reddick and Hall/Hermida in your OF.



Oh yeah, Edison Volquez was suspended 50 games for PEDs. He was recovering through Tommy John surgery anyway. Unfortunately he can serve his suspension while on the DL. Talk about a fuck up.