I think Metallica had more to do with music shifting in the early 90's than Nivarna

[Chip Z'Hoy]

Nirvana talking about Metallica:

https://youtu.be/61A4MmK6vDk?si=EQvWSww97OXFS6Eu

They brought up an interesting point: Metallica helped bring the Misfits to the mainstream. That's how I first heard of them, the Garage Days EP.

It's always been my position that Nirvana opened the jar but a shit-ton of other bands helped loosen it: Metallica, R.E.M., Jane's Addiction, Faith No More, Ministry, Soundgarden, Primus, etc.

And who got that ball rolling? GUNS N' ROSES. Cobain would never admit it, but Guns N' Roses... I guess opened the door to the kitchen where the jar was? I really painted myself into a corner with this jar thing.

[killeverything]

Metallica changed everything. Nirvana was a pop band at the right time.

Music ( especially rock/hard rock/metal ) was needing a change. Nirvana put the nail in the coffin, but Metallica put the bullet in the head.

It was Metallica that inspired crossover. Metallica that bridged the gap between punk and metal...moreso than GBH and Discharge. Metallica that embraced skate culture. Metallica that neutered the TuffTrixters, fucking Stryper did an album where they tried to act tough ( they were on the cover in prison stripes )...that was after Metallica ( I never heard it though, because it's Stryper ). A lot of the prancy bands started changing their sound after Metallica was starting to break.

It was Metallica that didn't dress up in stage clothes ( originally ), It was Metallica that brought Misfits ( as you pointed out ) and Motorhead ( in the states at least ) to mainstream conscience.

Metallica changed everything. As much as or almost as much as The Ramones.

Nirvana was in the right place at the right time.

[DangerZone]

…but Metallica put the bullet in the head.

you sure about that?

[killeverything]

…but Metallica put the bullet in the head.

you sure about that?

I am.

[dmbrocker]

…but Metallica put the bullet in the head.

you sure about that?

I am.

If we're talking Black Album, I agree. That album is the one that pretty much changed the whole game.

[killeverything]

you sure about that?

I am.

If we're talking Black Album, I agree. That album is the one that pretty much changed the whole game.

True, but an argument could be made their impact was starting to really be felt Master/AJFA, at least in non-mainstream ways. Zorlac Skateboards, Crimson Ghost shirts, Suicidal Tendencies sound change, etc. The Black Album blew it up.

[Chip Z'Hoy]

If we're talking Black Album, I agree. That album is the one that pretty much changed the whole game.

Co-signing everything Kill said, and this too.

In my head, Metallica were outselling Nirvana by a lot but the RIAA is saying Nevermind was 5x platinum by the end of '93 (pre-shotgun numbers) and The Black Album was 7x platinum. In the same ballpark, sales-wise. (Or CERTIFICATION-wise, rather. Don't need one of these Johnny Showbiz types correcting me.)

But once you factor in Metallica's massive tour versus Nirvana shooting dope and barely performing until In Utero, Metallica were definitely the bigger band. (Now that I'm reading what I wrote, I don't think anyone's ever said Nirvana was bigger so I don't know what my point is. )

In terms of merch, no contest. Nowadays, it might be a close race, with Nirvana basically being a clothing brand now, but in the early 90's, nobody touched Metallica with t-shirts. EVERY kid at my school had one. (I had the white Justice shirt with the faces on the front and the four albums on the back.)

[Wiseacre]

All Metallica did was become huge and bring thrash metal out of the underground briefly. It was quickly apparent that one Metallica was enough though for the casual music fan and zero other thrash bands even came close to their popularity or financial success. Thrash in the underground was on its last leg shortly after that with death metal taking over the underground.

Metallica didn’t change much unlike Nirvana, who along with other similar bands brought an entire wave of “grunge” success to the mainstream with lots and lots of copycats and success. You didn’t see ANY real Metallica copycats because there just wasn’t a place for them or a demand. Major labels TRIED with a few of the more popular “B” level thrash bands but it was nowhere near the success grunge was. Thrash just never appealed to nearly as wide an audience (mainly the female half of the world). If Metallica’s success did anything it basically ruined some great thrash bands who after getting picked up by the majors hoping for Black Album success largely sold out and/or were then dropped when it didn’t happen. Thrash was basically dead within a couple years. Metallica were a very successful fluke, although it shouldn’t have happened to any other band but them. They were the top of the heap and earned their place.

As far as the crossover comments, Metallica didn’t do as much as some people think. Crossover was already a thing with bands like Cro-Mags, C.O.C., Agnostic Front and DRI. All before the Garage Days EP. And Metallica just basically “metalized” punk tunes, but they never sounded punk themselves. They were never “crossover”. Suicidal was only actual “punk” for the first album and started to do the “metal” thing by the 2nd album. Hell, early Voivod is more punky than anything Metallica ever did.

[Fat_Elvis]

MTV decided who heard what.

[Chip Z'Hoy]

MTV decided who heard what.

Yes and no. King Buzzo of the Melvins always says (paraphrasing) "The music didn't sell because it was good; it sold because it was played on MTV 50 times a day. If you play anything 50 times a day, it's going to sell."

I kind of agree? That's true if the band is Nirvana or Stone Temple Pilots. If MTV played "Honey Bucket" by the Melvins 50 times a day, it for sure would've sold more records for them, but not Nirvana numbers.

Wiseacre made a lot of great points about thrash at the time--Metallica was definitely the most commercial out of all of them. "Creeping Death" is on classic rock radio now! It wasn't enough for, say, Exodus or Testament to slow down and become more melodic, they just didn't have that mainstream appeal. (Love both of those bands, btw.)

Or take "Foreclosure of a Dream." Okay song. Definitely Megadeth going more commercial. But put "Sad But True" next to it and you got one song that's an obvious commercial rock song and one that's the #6 Skullcrusher.

[killeverything]

As far as the crossover comments, Metallica didn’t do as much as some people think. Crossover was already a thing with bands like Cro-Mags, C.O.C., Agnostic Front and DRI. All before the Garage Days EP. And Metallica just basically “metalized” punk tunes, but they never sounded punk themselves. They were never “crossover”. Suicidal was only actual “punk” for the first album and started to do the “metal” thing by the 2nd album. Hell, early Voivod is more punky than anything Metallica ever did.

When I said inspired crossover. I didn't mean that Metallica were crossover or even punk, I meant that in that time when they were starting to be known in the underground they bridged the gap between punk and metal. Especially with skate culture embracing them. I still think they are what inspired it. This is what happened after them and before Garage Days re...

ST went thrash with the addition of Rocky ('86), DRI with crossover ( '87 ), Agnostic Front, and Cro-Mags I've always thought of as hardcore, not just a punk band playing thrash since they weren't. COC had a couple good hardcore albums...went straight thrash ( after Metallica blew up ) and became whatever horrible band they are now.

[Chip Z'Hoy]

I had a Metallica/Zorlac skateboard!

Metallica definitely had that punk/metal crossover appeal. Slayer too.

Is there any other way to say that? Because they weren't a crossover band like S.O.D. or Agnostic but they CROSSED OVER.

What if C-A-T really spelled "dog"?

[Wiseacre]

As far as the crossover comments, Metallica didn’t do as much as some people think. Crossover was already a thing with bands like Cro-Mags, C.O.C., Agnostic Front and DRI. All before the Garage Days EP. And Metallica just basically “metalized” punk tunes, but they never sounded punk themselves. They were never “crossover”. Suicidal was only actual “punk” for the first album and started to do the “metal” thing by the 2nd album. Hell, early Voivod is more punky than anything Metallica ever did.

When I said inspired crossover. I didn't mean that Metallica were crossover or even punk, I meant that in that time when they were starting to be known in the underground they bridged the gap between punk and metal. Especially with skate culture embracing them. I still think they are what inspired it. This is what happened after them and before Garage Days re...

ST went thrash with the addition of Rocky ('86), DRI with crossover ( '87 ), Agnostic Front, and Cro-Mags I've always thought of as hardcore, not just a punk band playing thrash since they weren't. COC had a couple good hardcore albums...went straight thrash ( after Metallica blew up ) and became whatever horrible band they are now.

DRI were playing “crossover” music before they released an album called “crossover”. Fast beats and metal riffs were all over Dealing With It (and the EP to a lesser extent). I was right in the middle of that scene and even though Metallica covered a couple punk tunes (in their own metal style) I don’t know anyone who considered them punk or being a bridge between the 2 scenes at all. Metallica were not really even appreciated by the punks (skaters aside I guess thanks to Pushead). Not like Motörhead or even Slayer, for example. Metal guys I knew loved punk bands with metal riffs like Corrosion, Crumbsuckers, Agnostic Front and CroMags the only difference between those bands and metal bands was their lyrics and how they looked. It was pretty common for punk and hardcore bands to turn more “metal” once their chops got better. That’s what happened with Suicidal. Even my band were considered crossover early-on since we were mainly a thrash band, but lyrically were more like punk and we weren’t all typical long haired metal heads. We toured with DRI, opened for CroMags, Danzig, Biohazard and Corrosion (technocracy-era) with no issues. And also supported Megadeth, Mercyful Fate, Overkill, Dearh and many other metal bands also with no issues.

IMO, if any band deserves credit for crossing punk and metal (in the mainstream), it was ANTHRAX, not METALLICA. Technically, S.O.D. and then Dan Lilker doing Nuclear Assault did a lot more for that movement than Metallica did and those bands were known for it.

[Van Ailin']

In between Metallica and Nirvana's success, the increasing sales of Jane's Addiction, REM, and Red Hot Chili Peppers (and even Primus) had a LOT to do with the 90s music shift.

[SterileEyes1]

It's always been my position that Nirvana opened the jar but a shit-ton of other bands helped loosen it: Metallica, R.E.M., Jane's Addiction, Faith No More, Ministry, Soundgarden, Primus, etc.

And who got that ball rolling? GUNS N' ROSES. Cobain would never admit it, but Guns N' Roses... I guess opened the door to the kitchen where the jar was? I really painted myself into a corner with this jar thing.

This part about GN’R is exactly right. And then Axl brought Faith No More and Soundgarden out on some of their earliest tours, and I believe he wanted to do the same with NIN, NWA, and…Nirvana.

It’s hard to portion it out but if Nirvana gets half the credit for the early 90s shift I think Metallica and GN’R split most of the other half.

[Love_Industry]

It's always been my position that Nirvana opened the jar but a shit-ton of other bands helped loosen it: Metallica, R.E.M., Jane's Addiction, Faith No More, Ministry, Soundgarden, Primus, etc.

And who got that ball rolling? GUNS N' ROSES. Cobain would never admit it, but Guns N' Roses... I guess opened the door to the kitchen where the jar was? I really painted myself into a corner with this jar thing.

This part about GN’R is exactly right. And then Axl brought Faith No More and Soundgarden out on some of their earliest tours, and I believe he wanted to do the same with NIN, NWA, and…Nirvana.

It’s hard to portion it out but if Nirvana gets half the credit for the early 90s shift I think Metallica and GN’R split most of the other half.

I would also agree with this but Metallica was more of a shift than GnR who were basically Mötley meets Aerosmith at least until the UYI tour. Which started the same year Nirvana made it to MTV.

Pearl Jam doesn't get enough credit by the way, maybe they weren't as cool as Nirvana and nobody in the band killed himself but Ten came out around the same time as Nevermind and sold Diamond with 2-3 big singles. RHCP also had a big 1991 album that brought a new sound to the mainstream.

And don't forget that Guns, Metallica, Aerosmith and VH had hugely successful album/tour cycles throughout Nirvana's career 91-94. The worst years for classic rock and metal were after Nirvana, not during.

[WolfgangVonPage]

As far as the crossover comments, Metallica didn’t do as much as some people think. Crossover was already a thing with bands like Cro-Mags, C.O.C., Agnostic Front and DRI. All before the Garage Days EP. And Metallica just basically “metalized” punk tunes, but they never sounded punk themselves. They were never “crossover”. Suicidal was only actual “punk” for the first album and started to do the “metal” thing by the 2nd album. Hell, early Voivod is more punky than anything Metallica ever did.

When I said inspired crossover. I didn't mean that Metallica were crossover or even punk, I meant that in that time when they were starting to be known in the underground they bridged the gap between punk and metal. Especially with skate culture embracing them. I still think they are what inspired it. This is what happened after them and before Garage Days re...

ST went thrash with the addition of Rocky ('86), DRI with crossover ( '87 ), Agnostic Front, and Cro-Mags I've always thought of as hardcore, not just a punk band playing thrash since they weren't. COC had a couple good hardcore albums...went straight thrash ( after Metallica blew up ) and became whatever horrible band they are now.

DRI were playing “crossover” music before they released an album called “crossover”. Fast beats and metal riffs were all over Dealing With It (and the EP to a lesser extent). I was right in the middle of that scene and even though Metallica covered a couple punk tunes (in their own metal style) I don’t know anyone who considered them punk or being a bridge between the 2 scenes at all. Metallica were not really even appreciated by the punks (skaters aside I guess thanks to Pushead). Not like Motörhead or even Slayer, for example. Metal guys I knew loved punk bands with metal riffs like Corrosion, Crumbsuckers, Agnostic Front and CroMags the only difference between those bands and metal bands was their lyrics and how they looked. It was pretty common for punk and hardcore bands to turn more “metal” once their chops got better. That’s what happened with Suicidal. Even my band were considered crossover early-on since we were mainly a thrash band, but lyrically were more like punk and we weren’t all typical long haired metal heads. We toured with DRI, opened for CroMags, Danzig, Biohazard and Corrosion (technocracy-era) with no issues. And also supported Megadeth, Mercyful Fate, Overkill, Dearh and many other metal bands also with no issues.

IMO, if any band deserves credit for crossing punk and metal (in the mainstream), it was ANTHRAX, not METALLICA. Technically, S.O.D. and then Dan Lilker doing Nuclear Assault did a lot more for that movement than Metallica did and those bands were known for it.

Wiseacre, which band were you in?
Man I wish I could have seen Mercyful Fate and Suicidal Tendencies.

[Mister Freeze]

Nevermind peaked with its first single, then petered off.

By comparison, the Black Album was like a boulder rolling down a hill, picking up more momentum as its run continued. Same was true for Ten.

Generally speaking, metal bands did well in 1991/1992 as long as they left the hairspray, makeup and spandex at home: Metallica, Ozzy, Queensryche, Megadeth, even Tesla to an extent.

Gn'R too, but they were losing cool factor for a variety of reasons.

[Chip Z'Hoy]

Nevermind peaked with its first single, then petered off.

By comparison, the Black Album was like a boulder rolling down a hill, picking up more momentum as its run continued. Same was true for Ten.

True about Nevermind. I remember "Lithium" being played every hour on MTV for an entire summer and then almost never seeing "In Bloom."

"Sliver" got re-released that winter and I don't think I saw it once. (I think the first time I saw that video was after he died.)

This is a good point people tend to forget: "Teen Spirit" might be the shot heard 'round the world but by the end of 1992, the Nirvana spell was kinda wearing off.

Pearl Jam, meanwhile, were just climbing the entire time. They stopped making videos but MTV had that Unplugged to cherrypick from.

As far as overall cultural presence goes, 1992-1993 was more about Pearl Jam and the Chili Peppers than Nirvana. That's how I remember it, anyway.

[Mister Freeze]

A friend of mine worked in a record store at the time. I remember him holding up the CD single for "Come As You Are" and saying, "this is doing okay, but nothing like this" and held up the "Teen Spirit" single.

[Wiseacre]

Wiseacre, which band were you in?
Man I wish I could have seen Mercyful Fate and Suicidal Tendencies.

Anacrusis. We toured with MF when they reunited in 1993. But I was also lucky enough to see them in 1984 for Don’t Break the Oath. I stood right in front of KD the whole show and it was epic. Full original lineup.

[daveg]

This is actually one of the more interesting topics in a while.

Not sure I'd agree with Metallica shifting the music scene..more along the lines of keeping hard rock going, That album was a monster and was gonna be massive regardless of year. They were about as popular as anyone before they released it. They just went more mainstream.

The opening riff to Teen Spirit changed everything. The dark video in a gym, the pounding drums. Then comes PJ with Alive and Even flow. Heavy riffs and some awesome videos. They were the ones that pushed all the hair farmers to the flannel and the "woe is me" lyrics. That eventually turned STP, Alice, Soundgarden, Pumpkins into household names. Not sure GnR, Metallica, even Bon Jovi etc had anything to do with that. They were just the cream of the rock crop and were gonna keep going regardless.

I remember our High School changed almost overnight. People still liked Metallica etc, but that had nothing to do with the popularity of the grunge bands.

[aznsquirt]

This is actually one of the more interesting topics in a while.

It is, and I keep reading thinking "man this is interesting, but I have nothing to contribute".

But it did make me wonder when the term "Alternative" went mainstream. By the mid 90s the two main sections in any record store were "R&B" and "Alternative", and some tipping point where every band wanted to be classified as Alternative if they wanted to sell.

[aznsquirt]

This is actually one of the more interesting topics in a while.

It is, and I keep reading thinking "man this is interesting, but I have nothing to contribute".

But it did make me wonder when the term "Alternative" went mainstream. By the mid 90s the two main sections in any record store were "R&B" and "Alternative", and some tipping point where every band wanted to be classified as Alternative if they wanted to sell.

Anacrusis. We toured with MF when they reunited in 1993. But I was also lucky enough to see them in 1984 for Don’t Break the Oath. I stood right in front of KD the whole show and it was epic. Full original lineup.

Currently blasting the Screams and Whispers album. This crushes.

[Wiseacre]

But it did make me wonder when the term "Alternative" went mainstream.

U2 or maybe REM if you consider that although U2 were definitely alternative or “college” rock before Joshua Tree, they did have some pretty big exposure prior to that with a few early songs.

REM were always considered alternative (style-wise) even after hey blew up.

[Wiseacre]

This is actually one of the more interesting topics in a while.

It is, and I keep reading thinking "man this is interesting, but I have nothing to contribute".

But it did make me wonder when the term "Alternative" went mainstream. By the mid 90s the two main sections in any record store were "R&B" and "Alternative", and some tipping point where every band wanted to be classified as Alternative if they wanted to sell.

Anacrusis. We toured with MF when they reunited in 1993. But I was also lucky enough to see them in 1984 for Don’t Break the Oath. I stood right in front of KD the whole show and it was epic. Full original lineup.

Currently blasting the Screams and Whispers album. This crushes.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

If you like that, check out my 2nd solo album from 2021. It's very similar, but even more song-oriented.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... Q3YCurp5Jx

[Bono Nettencourt]

Nevermind peaked with its first single, then petered off.

By comparison, the Black Album was like a boulder rolling down a hill, picking up more momentum as its run continued. Same was true for Ten.

True about Nevermind. I remember "Lithium" being played every hour on MTV for an entire summer and then almost never seeing "In Bloom."

"Sliver" got re-released that winter and I don't think I saw it once. (I think the first time I saw that video was after he died.)

This is a good point people tend to forget: "Teen Spirit" might be the shot heard 'round the world but by the end of 1992, the Nirvana spell was kinda wearing off.

Pearl Jam, meanwhile, were just climbing the entire time. They stopped making videos but MTV had that Unplugged to cherrypick from.

As far as overall cultural presence goes, 1992-1993 was more about Pearl Jam and the Chili Peppers than Nirvana. That's how I remember it, anyway.

Correct. In Utero was a relative commercial stiff that barely cleared platinum til Blowbrains fired the 2nd shot heard round the world.

[Love_Industry]

Correct. In Utero was a relative commercial stiff that barely cleared platinum til Blowbrains fired the 2nd shot heard round the world.

So basically Nirvana was the grunge Twisted Sister to Pearl Jam and Soundgarden's Bon Jovi and Mötley....

[HoldenSSV]

Metallica changed everything. As much as or almost as much as The Ramones.

The Ramones? Bullshit. They didn't change anything and were a glorified gimmick that went on way too long. Back in the day nobody took them seriously. If they say it now, they're fucking lying.

[Neil Diamond Dave]

Yes, great topic. I agree with all of your posts here. I often wondered about the true slow funeral for Hair Metal. I do think GnR were the start of it. But even before, I remember looking for alts to the mainstream and Thrash was it with that Punk influence - I remember picking up Metallica's Master of Puppets and Slayer's Reign In Blood which were so extreme back then, and thinking, Hair Metal is going to die soon.

For me, if I can trace back to my teenage preferences starting to veer away from the mainstream Hair Metal:

Metallica's Master of Puppets
Slayer's Reign in Blood

Then:

GnR's Appetite
Jane's Addiction's Nothing Shocking
Soundgarden's Louder Than Love
Faith No More's Real Thing
Nirvana's Nevermind