Amazing albums with garbage tone

[Psychobolia.com]

I dig the sound of Tooth and Nail, don't get the hate for the tone/production, it's sharp and has bite.

Stay Hungry, on the other hand, does sound weak, i can see why the band re-recorded it (Still Hungry), though I didn't bother getting the remake.

[Sleek]

Bands re-record stuff they did with Werman thinking it is going to come out better, and it magically never does...as if he brought something that the band itself does not have.

[Van Ailin']

Motley Crue - Shout At The Devil

Dokken - Tooth & Nail

I enjoyed songs on both of them but both didn't sound quite right to me, especially in rhythm guitar tone. George made up for it on T&N in that his lead tone was so good.

Also, Krokus - Change of Address, which just sounded soft and padded on all the edges. It's odd since they found a tone that really suited them with Tom Allom on "Headhunter." And then they never went back to that.

[Bono Nettencourt]

Motley Crue - Shout At The Devil

Dokken - Tooth & Nail

I enjoyed songs on both of them but both didn't sound quite right to me, especially in rhythm guitar tone. George made up for it on T&N in that his lead tone was so good.

Also, Krokus - Change of Address, which just sounded soft and padded on all the edges. It's odd since they found a tone that really suited them with Tom Allom on "Headhunter." And then they never went back to that.

Werman hater alert

[juano]

And I definitely blame Tom Werman. He may have been a good pop producer, but he completely neutered heavy metal bands.

Cheap Trick hated Tom Werman's production on their album "In Color" that they re-recored the entire album with Steve Albini.

[Sleek]

Yup. They sure did.

|...and the magic just ain't there.

[HoldenSSV]

Part of the issue with Tooth and Nail is that the overall sound is just really low. It is one of the weakest sounding metal releases I own.

[Bono Nettencourt]

And I definitely blame Tom Werman. He may have been a good pop producer, but he completely neutered heavy metal bands.

Cheap Trick hated Tom Werman's production on their album "In Color" that they re-recored the entire album with Steve Albini.

Steve Albini could be the most overrated individual in music industry history.

[Van Ailin']

Motley Crue - Shout At The Devil

Dokken - Tooth & Nail

I enjoyed songs on both of them but both didn't sound quite right to me, especially in rhythm guitar tone. George made up for it on T&N in that his lead tone was so good.

Also, Krokus - Change of Address, which just sounded soft and padded on all the edges. It's odd since they found a tone that really suited them with Tom Allom on "Headhunter." And then they never went back to that.

Werman hater alert

Proudly.

[Sleek]

Part of the issue with Tooth and Nail is that the overall sound is just really low. It is one of the weakest sounding metal releases I own.

I listened to it LOUD in my car on the way back from the Whisky tonight, and it sounded awesome.

[Bono Nettencourt]

Yeah i don't get it... i don't remember anyone at the time saying, "ugh, how can you stand this horrible, thin, overly-slick bassless tone!" when ppl were buying millions of these records. Who cast the 1st stone in the Werman Wars, Sixx or Snider? Or was Trick's Albini remix the 1st salvo?

[CrankerBait]

The best answers so far were the ones at the beginning about the first couple of KISS albums. Those songs deserved to sound a lot better. (Not sure if I'd consider either album truly amazing, but both are good.)

I'd add Fly on the Wall by AC/DC to the list, but it is extremely far from amazing.

[Sleek]

Yeah i don't get it... i don't remember anyone at the time saying, "ugh, how can you stand this horrible, thin, overly-slick bassless tone!" when ppl were buying millions of these records. Who cast the 1st stone in the Werman Wars, Sixx or Snider? Or was Trick's Albini remix the 1st salvo?

I worked the studio sessions for the second L.A. Guns album, so I got to spend a LOT of time watching how Werman and his engineers worked...the little conversations between his team while the band was out doing takes and shit, what THEIR priorities were...I was as close to a fly on the wall as you could be.

The BAND experience is very different. They go out in the room and play and are all loud and aggressive sounding and are like: "Wow! We kick ass" from the live sound going down. Then they come in the control room and go: "Oh. This sounds different", and think it is inferior and blame the producer for not capturing their essence.

The production team tho doesn't really even try to get that sound, because bands never really understand what garbage is actually coming out of their amps or drums or whatever. They just try to get SOMETHING that sounds good and sits well in the mix, while the real work is shit like getting things to groove right and creating space for the SONG itself to breathe and become a thing instead of just constant non-dynamic noodling.

Once they get the basic tracks right, they go to work on the vocals, getting a decent lead vocal, bringing out the melodies and adding harmonies to reinforce or create hooks. Werman's engineering team in particular (Duane Barron and John Purdell) had a guy who sang like an angel and could stack up harmonies that sounded like a choir in basically real-time.

Thennnnn they throw some finishing touches with overdubs like shaker and tambourines and stuff...you'd be amazed how those little things can bring a song to life.

So yeah, Werman and his team have as priorities: Bringing out the SONG, maximizing the hooks and creating a recording that emphasizes them and sounds balanced while also getting the best performances out of the band.

The band priorities are always: MAKE IT SOUND KICK ASS, DUDE!

So...yeah. They bitch and whine about what Werman did because their priorities are misaligned, then they re-record the same stuff with the same people but without Tom in there and FAIL.

The butthurt multiplies because on some level every band Werman works with know that he made their career-defining work (even if it wasn't their biggest seller). That's a lot for a fragile musician ego to take.

This happens over and over and nobody ever gets it. Probably because they only get to see the one side of the recording, the band experience.

[Velvis]

Twisted Sister - Stay Hungry

For my money, a classic. Belongs in the top 10 of every 80's hard rock/metal list.

I think the impulse is to always blame Tom Werman, as evidenced by our ABTW credo above the door, but I think the band just sounded like shit.

And French/Ojeda get shit but they truly did themselves zero favors with those tones. Was the whole idea to sound like kids in their bedroom playing through tiny Peaveys? If so, I guess I can appreciate it conceptually...

Wouldn't the sound be Tom Werman's decision?

[Sleek]

Not really.

They work with the guitar players a little, (usually to get them to clean up their sound some and maybe add some mids...guitar players always walk in with a fully driven marshall then have a distortion pedal on top of that and it just sounds like bleh...) but at the end of the day, the guitarist walks in a with a sound and the producer records it.

They suggest things like maybe trying other amps or whatever, but the guitar dude gets to say yes or no.

As far as bass tones, they took maybe 5 minutes to get a sound for Kelly. Purdell was like: "It's clean, got some top end and we'll get the bottom from the D.I. It's fine."

The thing I have seen the production staff spend a lot of time on is drums. You kinda got to get them right the first time, as you don't really have the option to just overdub better after the basic tracks are done.

That might be a little different now when producers are reamping clean signals and retriggering drums, putting whatever sound they want on it, but the whole role of producer has changed a lot.

[Bono Nettencourt]

Twisted Sister - Stay Hungry

For my money, a classic. Belongs in the top 10 of every 80's hard rock/metal list.

I think the impulse is to always blame Tom Werman, as evidenced by our ABTW credo above the door, but I think the band just sounded like shit.

And French/Ojeda get shit but they truly did themselves zero favors with those tones. Was the whole idea to sound like kids in their bedroom playing through tiny Peaveys? If so, I guess I can appreciate it conceptually...

Wouldn't the sound be Tom Werman's decision?

I think he told a story once about how Jay Jay went thru 30 Marshall heads but he couldn't tell a good one from a bad one.

[Mister Freeze]

A+ posts by Sleek in this thread.

[Mister Freeze]

KISS - Crazy Nights

Maybe not an amazing album in the traditional sense but an amazing album to KISS fans, tone sucked.

I think the tone works for what that album was going for. The guitars just get overwhelmed by the keyboards at times.

The new songs on ST&H are much worse. The guitar sounds thin, almost like it was plugged straight into the mixing board without an amp.

Motley Crue - Shout At The Devil

I wouldn't change anything about that album. Doesn't need the big "Feelgood" sound to work.