Oh (No) Canada

[EvilMadman]

"You've heard the mantra, chanted by everyone on the left, from Michael Moore to The New York Times: America's profit-centric health-care system is dismally inferior to that of Canada's purely pristine humanitarian-driven version.

Indeed, the central theme of Moore's 2007 "documentary" film, "Sicko," was that Canada -- with its universal, government-run and taxpayer-funded "free" health care -- is a medical paradise.

And a Times editorial last August glowingly declared: "Contrary to what one hears in political discourse, the bulk of the research comparing the United States and Canada found a higher quality of care in our northern neighbor."



Well, tell that to Danny Williams, premier of the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The popular 59-year-old politician has discovered that nothing is for free. He's somewhere in the US today -- prepping for heart surgery.

Seems the procedure he needs simply isn't available in Newfoundland -- at any price.

And, with his own health on the line, he prefers to put his trust in the "second-rate, profit-driven health-care behemoth" south of the St. Lawrence, rather than try a hospital in Canada.

"Ultimately, we have to be the gatekeepers of our own health," said Williams' deputy premier, "and he has taken medical advice from a number of different sources,"

Williams, he added, "is doing what's best for him."

Precisely.

Last summer, President Obama -- who still hopes to overhaul American health-care -- defended the Canadian system as one that "works for Canada."

Not for all Canadians, apparently.

Certainly not those well-connected pols, who -- like Danny Williams -- can afford better health care in the good ol' US of A.

Get well soon, Danny."

nypost.com
Fri., Feb. 5, 2010

"works for Canada."

"Not for all Canadians, apparently."

[Ugmo]

I don't think anyone ever disputed the best care in the world can be had in the U.S. if you have the money. This isn't really a revelation. This guy needs some kind of special procedure that can't be done in Newfoundland, but certainly it can be done elsewhere in Canada. If he chooses to have it done in the U.S. and has the cash, then good for him. Fact remains though that everyone there is covered and can have medical care if they get sick without having to sell their fuckin house!

[thejuggernaut]

I don't think anyone ever disputed the best care in the world can be had in the U.S. if you have the money. This isn't really a revelation. This guy needs some kind of special procedure that can't be done in Newfoundland, but certainly it can be done elsewhere in Canada. If he chooses to have it done in the U.S. and has the cash, then good for him. Fact remains though that everyone there is covered and can have medical care if they get sick without having to sell their fuckin house!

It can be done elsewhere in Canada, yes.

Could he have it done before he kicked the bucket ? Maybe, maybe not. That's why he went to the states - he didn't want to chance waiting that long.

[Ugmo]

It can be done elsewhere in Canada, yes.

Could he have it done before he kicked the bucket ? Maybe, maybe not. That's why he went to the states - he didn't want to chance waiting that long.

Seriously? Even with life-threatening things like that? Wow.

[thejuggernaut]

It can be done elsewhere in Canada, yes.

Could he have it done before he kicked the bucket ? Maybe, maybe not. That's why he went to the states - he didn't want to chance waiting that long.

Seriously? Even with life-threatening things like that? Wow.

The problem is, there are only so many specialists, so who gets preference when you can't pay them off ?

Waiting list.

Belinda Stronach stirred up a nice little fuss a few years back as well.

[vanitybinge]

I don't think anyone ever disputed the best care in the world can be had in the U.S. if you have the money. This isn't really a revelation. This guy needs some kind of special procedure that can't be done in Newfoundland, but certainly it can be done elsewhere in Canada. If he chooses to have it done in the U.S. and has the cash, then good for him. Fact remains though that everyone there is covered and can have medical care if they get sick without having to sell their fuckin house!

It can be done elsewhere in Canada, yes.

Could he have it done before he kicked the bucket ? Maybe, maybe not. That's why he went to the states - he didn't want to chance waiting that long.

You're talking about a guy who could afford to go ahead of the line, so he took advatage of his financial position. Using that as a way to pass judgement on the whole Canadian system is like watching Michael Moore try to stand on a case of Big Macs without collapsing to the floor.

Most of the Canadians I talk to say they would rather have the system they have. If they're rich and they can afford to fly out to America or Mexico for something special, they will. They're still happier with what they have then we are with both last year's system and this new Honky Tonk Bullshit Bill.

[thejuggernaut]

I don't think anyone ever disputed the best care in the world can be had in the U.S. if you have the money. This isn't really a revelation. This guy needs some kind of special procedure that can't be done in Newfoundland, but certainly it can be done elsewhere in Canada. If he chooses to have it done in the U.S. and has the cash, then good for him. Fact remains though that everyone there is covered and can have medical care if they get sick without having to sell their fuckin house!

It can be done elsewhere in Canada, yes.

Could he have it done before he kicked the bucket ? Maybe, maybe not. That's why he went to the states - he didn't want to chance waiting that long.

You're talking about a guy who could afford to go ahead of the line, so he took advatage of his financial position. Using that as a way to pass judgement on the whole Canadian system is like watching Michael Moore try to stand on a case of Big Macs without collapsing to the floor.

Most of the Canadians I talk to say they would rather have the system they have. If they're rich and they can afford to fly out to America or Mexico for something special, they will. They're still happier with what they have then we are with both last year's system and this new Honky Tonk Bullshit Bill.

That's great. The people that can't afford it can't take out a loan to get the treatment they need in the US.

Notice he didn't "get ahead of the line" in Canada ? That's because the system prevents it.

[vanitybinge]

You're talking about a guy who could afford to go ahead of the line, so he took advatage of his financial position. Using that as a way to pass judgement on the whole Canadian system is like watching Michael Moore try to stand on a case of Big Macs without collapsing to the floor.

Most of the Canadians I talk to say they would rather have the system they have. If they're rich and they can afford to fly out to America or Mexico for something special, they will. They're still happier with what they have then we are with both last year's system and this new Honky Tonk Bullshit Bill.

That's great. The people that can't afford it can't take out a loan to get the treatment they need in the US.

Notice he didn't "get ahead of the line" in Canada ? That's because the system prevents it.

Did Canada prevent him from flying here? No? Then he got ahead of the line. Thank you, come again.




edit: I think what you're getting at is the waiting room argument that is one of the biggest complaints against Canada's system. It's a valid concern, and one we could and certainly would address should we so choose to adopt their system. It's possible we could take what they do and find a way to make it better. Have the brains at NASA figure it out since they don't need to train for moon-flights anymore.

[thejuggernaut]

You're talking about a guy who could afford to go ahead of the line, so he took advatage of his financial position. Using that as a way to pass judgement on the whole Canadian system is like watching Michael Moore try to stand on a case of Big Macs without collapsing to the floor.

Most of the Canadians I talk to say they would rather have the system they have. If they're rich and they can afford to fly out to America or Mexico for something special, they will. They're still happier with what they have then we are with both last year's system and this new Honky Tonk Bullshit Bill.

That's great. The people that can't afford it can't take out a loan to get the treatment they need in the US.

Notice he didn't "get ahead of the line" in Canada ? That's because the system prevents it.

Did Canada prevent him from flying here? No? Then he got ahead of the line. Thank you, come again.




edit: I think what you're getting at is the waiting room argument that is one of the biggest complaints against Canada's system. It's a valid concern, and one we could and certainly would address should we so choose to adopt their system. It's possible we could take what they do and find a way to make it better. Have the brains at NASA figure it out since they don't need to train for moon-flights anymore.

Actually, he didn't get ahead of the line.

He had to go to another country to get ahead of THAT line.

The only "line" Canada has is a waiting list.

Part of the reason there are waiting lists is because a government subsidized system can only provide so many doctors.

[vanitybinge]

Did Canada prevent him from flying here? No? Then he got ahead of the line. Thank you, come again.




edit: I think what you're getting at is the waiting room argument that is one of the biggest complaints against Canada's system. It's a valid concern, and one we could and certainly would address should we so choose to adopt their system. It's possible we could take what they do and find a way to make it better. Have the brains at NASA figure it out since they don't need to train for moon-flights anymore.

Actually, he didn't get ahead of the line.

He had to go to another country to get ahead of THAT line.

The only "line" Canada has is a waiting list.

Part of the reason there are waiting lists is because a government subsidized system can only provide so many doctors.

I get that...maybe you didn't see my edit?

[vlad]

My dear friend in Alberta, conservatives in that Albert a way LOVE their healthcare. Especially when they found out how much I and my husband had to pay for healthv insurance (and was stunned to learn that that didn't include dental or vision) without all the goodies they have. And this is a family with health issues...two of the kids don't even leave home without their epi pens.

The U.S. may have the best in the world...but that doesn't mean that many Americans (most can't, hence the crisis) can even afford it. I've known a fair number of people personally that travel to Mexico to get their teeth done...and of course there is that whole "it's cheaper to travel to India to have surgery than staying at home"....

It should be pointed out that Williams said he couldn't get the procedure he wanted in his province...not his country, or rather he refuses (his spokesperson actually) to answer that last question.

Of course, Newfoundland is the sticks..or rather 'The Rock" of Canada...it would be like having to leave Alaska to get a specialised course of treatment...something that happens quite often...

[thejuggernaut]

Did Canada prevent him from flying here? No? Then he got ahead of the line. Thank you, come again.




edit: I think what you're getting at is the waiting room argument that is one of the biggest complaints against Canada's system. It's a valid concern, and one we could and certainly would address should we so choose to adopt their system. It's possible we could take what they do and find a way to make it better. Have the brains at NASA figure it out since they don't need to train for moon-flights anymore.

Actually, he didn't get ahead of the line.

He had to go to another country to get ahead of THAT line.

The only "line" Canada has is a waiting list.

Part of the reason there are waiting lists is because a government subsidized system can only provide so many doctors.

I get that...maybe you didn't see my edit?

Maybe you forgot to edit something.

[thejuggernaut]

My dear friend in Alberta, conservatives in that Albert a way LOVE their healthcare. Especially when they found out how much I and my husband had to pay for healthv insurance (and was stunned to learn that that didn't include dental or vision) without all the goodies they have. And this is a family with health issues...two of the kids don't even leave home without their epi pens.

The U.S. may have the best in the world...but that doesn't mean that many Americans (most can't, hence the crisis) can even afford it. I've known a fair number of people personally that travel to Mexico to get their teeth done...and of course there is that whole "it's cheaper to travel to India to have surgery than staying at home"....

It should be pointed out that Williams said he couldn't get the procedure he wanted in his province...not his country, or rather he refuses (his spokesperson actually) to answer that last question.

Of course, Newfoundland is the sticks..or rather 'The Rock" of Canada...it would be like having to leave Alaska to get a specialised course of treatment...something that happens quite often...

Your friends in Alberta love it because Alberta has the best taxation in Canada, not to mention it's the best economy in the country and, given the nature of the province, the healthcare system has the best funding of any other province.

Using Alberta as a measuring stick for Canada would be like a Canadian using Texas as a measuring stick for the US.

[vanitybinge]

I get that...maybe you didn't see my edit?

Maybe you forgot to edit something.

Wrong? I acknowledged the point you were trying to make and you dismiss it by saying it as if I'm hearing it the first time. Goddamn you're frustrating. We get your point, but you're not convincing me that we should keep what we have, and you're clearly not willing to accept a compromise in the situation.

Read my post again and you'll see I spotted where a compromise would be needed in the adoption of Canada's system.

From what I see of you in this thread, you're just being stubborn and want to hate Canada's system no matter what anyone says.

[thejuggernaut]

I get that...maybe you didn't see my edit?

Maybe you forgot to edit something.

Wrong? I acknowledged the point you were trying to make and you dismiss it by saying it as if I'm hearing it the first time. Goddamn you're frustrating. We get your point, but you're not convincing me that we should keep what we have, and you're clearly not willing to accept a compromise in the situation.

Read my post again and you'll see I spotted where a compromise would be needed in the adoption of Canada's system.

From what I see of you in this thread, you're just being stubborn and want to hate Canada's system no matter what anyone says.

Must be it. It certainly couldn't be because I have a better handle on the Canadian healthcare system than you do.

[vanitybinge]

I do have a pretty good handle on it, thanks. I'm just getting pissed that I acknowledge yourpoint and offer to move along with it, and you totally fucking ignore it and act like its not there. You just keep sticking to your "Canada sucks" routine.

[thejuggernaut]

I do have a pretty good handle on it, thanks. I'm just getting pissed that I acknowledge yourpoint and offer to move along with it, and you totally fucking ignore it and act like its not there. You just keep sticking to your "Canada sucks" routine.

I am sure you have an amazing handle on the Canadian healthcare system. Probably better than I do, huh ?

You know what's still present ? In spite of your edit, you left the part about him jumping the line.

[vanitybinge]

I do have a pretty good handle on it, thanks. I'm just getting pissed that I acknowledge yourpoint and offer to move along with it, and you totally fucking ignore it and act like its not there. You just keep sticking to your "Canada sucks" routine.

I am sure you have an amazing handle on the Canadian healthcare system. Probably better than I do, huh ?

You know what's still present ? In spite of your edit, you left the part about him jumping the line.

That IS my point! I get the argument about the waiting room, but I do think he's an exception because of the procedure and/or his ability to afford the trip. If I could afford to get a passport, fly to Mexico for a new foot that I can't get in the US, then I probably will. The problem here is we have so many health code regulations, (which dont get me wrong, they have their merit), it drives up the cost of everything.

So if we can get back on base here, it seems that the waiting room is your biggest itch with the Canadian system. If that could be addressed, how would you change it and do yu think their system could be adopted with reasonable changes? Surely there's a way to combine the best of what both countries have?

[vlad]

My dear friend in Alberta, conservatives in that Albert a way LOVE their healthcare. Especially when they found out how much I and my husband had to pay for healthv insurance (and was stunned to learn that that didn't include dental or vision) without all the goodies they have. And this is a family with health issues...two of the kids don't even leave home without their epi pens.

The U.S. may have the best in the world...but that doesn't mean that many Americans (most can't, hence the crisis) can even afford it. I've known a fair number of people personally that travel to Mexico to get their teeth done...and of course there is that whole "it's cheaper to travel to India to have surgery than staying at home"....

It should be pointed out that Williams said he couldn't get the procedure he wanted in his province...not his country, or rather he refuses (his spokesperson actually) to answer that last question.

Of course, Newfoundland is the sticks..or rather 'The Rock" of Canada...it would be like having to leave Alaska to get a specialised course of treatment...something that happens quite often...

Your friends in Alberta love it because Alberta has the best taxation in Canada, not to mention it's the best economy in the country and, given the nature of the province, the healthcare system has the best funding of any other province.

Using Alberta as a measuring stick for Canada would be like a Canadian using Texas as a measuring stick for the US.

And you think that healthcare availability and costs is uniform across the US? Clearly there are serious healthcare issues in the United States, elsewise, we wouldn't be having this big dust-up in the first place. People can not afford it...hello. Doesn't matter how good it is, if you can't get it. I am sure that hospital/health horror stories can be whipped out for both countries....this is political bullshit, as is the whole healthcare "debate"....meanwhile the cost of insurance and actual medical expenses has skyrocketed in the last couple of decades (believe me, I know too well, as we are self-employed....it has been outrageous.) We don't have health issues so the fucking money goes to "just in case"....and it continues to rise, even though we have had no crises and we pay out of pocket for the few doctor visits we have had over the years. It is fucking bullshit. It pisses me off so much I want to throttle someone. Our vehicle insurance is a tenth of our health insurance bills.

Newfoundland is not the same as Alberta (like Alaska is not like Mississippi or MA or CA, etc, etc....and I will remind you that Williams' spokesperson wouldn't comment on the availability of the procedure in the rest of Canada...just that it couldn't be done on the Rock. Actually from what I've read, there's a whole lot of "mystery" around Williams' ailment and exactly what the procedure is. Until we know, using whatever is going on with him is silly...but hey! It makes for great fodder in the culture/political wars.

Ask anyone in this country who can not afford ( the middle class) the tightrope, whether they'd mind waiting a bit (like it isn't already rationed here as well, in many places...thank you HMOs) or going bankrupt to keep themsleves insured or paying the huge dollars our wonderful health care INDUSTRY deems required to keep their PROFIT margin up.

[thejuggernaut]

I do have a pretty good handle on it, thanks. I'm just getting pissed that I acknowledge yourpoint and offer to move along with it, and you totally fucking ignore it and act like its not there. You just keep sticking to your "Canada sucks" routine.

I am sure you have an amazing handle on the Canadian healthcare system. Probably better than I do, huh ?

You know what's still present ? In spite of your edit, you left the part about him jumping the line.

That IS my point! I get the argument about the waiting room, but I do think he's an exception because of the procedure and/or his ability to afford the trip. If I could afford to get a passport, fly to Mexico for a new foot that I can't get in the US, then I probably will. The problem here is we have so many health code regulations, (which dont get me wrong, they have their merit), it drives up the cost of everything.

So if we can get back on base here, it seems that the waiting room is your biggest itch with the Canadian system. If that could be addressed, how would you change it and do yu think their system could be adopted with reasonable changes? Surely there's a way to combine the best of what both countries have?

Without taking the time to crunch the numbers, I would have to say some sort of cap, where serious treatment (cancer/severe trauma, full body casts, and anything catastrophic which will incur extreme costs should be handled by the government) EDIT - would be subsidized.

Smaller things like a broken arm, flu treatment etc etc either take a credit card or cash on the spot, and if they have neither, direct bill them and if payment is not received, take it from their social security.

One of the biggest contributors to healthcare costs are people who are into recreational medicine. That, and hypochondriacs.

[thejuggernaut]

My dear friend in Alberta, conservatives in that Albert a way LOVE their healthcare. Especially when they found out how much I and my husband had to pay for healthv insurance (and was stunned to learn that that didn't include dental or vision) without all the goodies they have. And this is a family with health issues...two of the kids don't even leave home without their epi pens.

The U.S. may have the best in the world...but that doesn't mean that many Americans (most can't, hence the crisis) can even afford it. I've known a fair number of people personally that travel to Mexico to get their teeth done...and of course there is that whole "it's cheaper to travel to India to have surgery than staying at home"....

It should be pointed out that Williams said he couldn't get the procedure he wanted in his province...not his country, or rather he refuses (his spokesperson actually) to answer that last question.

Of course, Newfoundland is the sticks..or rather 'The Rock" of Canada...it would be like having to leave Alaska to get a specialised course of treatment...something that happens quite often...

Your friends in Alberta love it because Alberta has the best taxation in Canada, not to mention it's the best economy in the country and, given the nature of the province, the healthcare system has the best funding of any other province.

Using Alberta as a measuring stick for Canada would be like a Canadian using Texas as a measuring stick for the US.

And you think that healthcare availability and costs is uniform across the US? Clearly there are serious healthcare issues in the United States, elsewise, we wouldn't be having this big dust-up in the first place. People can not afford it...hello. Doesn't matter how good it is, if you can't get it. I am sure that hospital/health horror stories can be whipped out for both countries....this is political bullshit, as is the whole healthcare "debate"....meanwhile the cost of insurance and actual medical expenses has skyrocketed in the last couple of decades (believe me, I know too well, as we are self-employed....it has been outrageous.) We don't have health issues so the fucking money goes to "just in case"....and it continues to rise, even though we have had no crises and we pay out of pocket for the few doctor visits we have had over the years. It is fucking bullshit. It pisses me off so much I want to throttle someone. Our vehicle insurance is a tenth of our health insurance bills.

Newfoundland is not the same as Alberta (like Alaska is not like Mississippi or MA or CA, etc, etc....and I will remind you that Williams' spokesperson wouldn't comment on the availability of the procedure in the rest of Canada...just that it couldn't be done on the Rock. Actually from what I've read, there's a whole lot of "mystery" around Williams' ailment and exactly what the procedure is. Until we know, using whatever is going on with him is silly...but hey! It makes for great fodder in the culture/political wars.

Ask anyone in this country who can not afford ( the middle class) the tightrope, whether they'd mind waiting a bit (like it isn't already rationed here as well, in many places...thank you HMOs) or going bankrupt to keep themsleves insured or paying the huge dollars our wonderful health care INDUSTRY deems required to keep their PROFIT margin up.

As I said, Alberta has been the best economy in Canada for a while now, so they are at the TOP of the ladder and of course they'll be less likely to complain about the healthcare THEY receive.

In fact, there has been a push in Alberta to incorporate a privatized system.

The issue with Williams wasn't the availability elsewhere; it is the wait involved. Maybe a string of people cancel and he shoots to the top of the list. Maybe he dies waiting. Instead, he opted to go somewhere with a system that allows you to pay your way to the front of the line.

The Canadian system is waiting list; there is no paying your way to the front. Now, this guy is a politician so fuck him, but with all due respect to humanity, a system that treats everyone as equals is retarded - people like Alex Slusky and Kris Hagerman are just a little more important than Pete the garbage man.

[vanitybinge]

As I said, Alberta has been the best economy in Canada for a while now, so they are at the TOP of the ladder and of course they'll be less likely to complain about the healthcare THEY receive.

In fact, there has been a push in Alberta to incorporate a privatized system.

The issue with Williams wasn't the availability elsewhere; it is the wait involved. Maybe a string of people cancel and he shoots to the top of the list. Maybe he dies waiting. Instead, he opted to go somewhere with a system that allows you to pay your way to the front of the line.

The Canadian system is waiting list; there is no paying your way to the front. Now, this guy is a politician so fuck him, but with all due respect to humanity, a system that treats everyone as equals is retarded - people like Alex Slusky and Kris Hagerman are just a little more important than Pete the garbage man.

That might be one of the most elitist selfish loads of shit I've ever heard on this board.

[thejuggernaut]

As I said, Alberta has been the best economy in Canada for a while now, so they are at the TOP of the ladder and of course they'll be less likely to complain about the healthcare THEY receive.

In fact, there has been a push in Alberta to incorporate a privatized system.

The issue with Williams wasn't the availability elsewhere; it is the wait involved. Maybe a string of people cancel and he shoots to the top of the list. Maybe he dies waiting. Instead, he opted to go somewhere with a system that allows you to pay your way to the front of the line.

The Canadian system is waiting list; there is no paying your way to the front. Now, this guy is a politician so fuck him, but with all due respect to humanity, a system that treats everyone as equals is retarded - people like Alex Slusky and Kris Hagerman are just a little more important than Pete the garbage man.

That might be one of the most elitist selfish loads of shit I've ever heard on this board.

That's great.

In a progressive tax system, who is more valuable to the machine that runs on tax dollars, $16 per hour man, or the guy who makes a few hundred thousand dollars and employs hundreds of people ?

Don't answer because the answer is obvious.

If they can't jump the line by outright buying their way to the front, an emphasis should be placed on getting the big contributors back to their roles as quickly as possible. If a person pays more in taxes than another person makes, you're god damned right they should jump to the front of the line.

You can use the "the world needs ditch diggers" argument, but ditch diggers are far more plentiful than the people capable of maintaining that type of "empire"

[vanitybinge]

That might be one of the most elitist selfish loads of shit I've ever heard on this board.

That's great.

In a progressive tax system, who is more valuable to the machine that runs on tax dollars, $16 per hour man, or the guy who makes a few hundred thousand dollars and employs hundreds of people ?

Don't answer because the answer is obvious.

If they can't jump the line by outright buying their way to the front, an emphasis should be placed on getting the big contributors back to their roles as quickly as possible. If a person pays more in taxes than another person makes, you're god damned right they should jump to the front of the line.

You can use the "the world needs ditch diggers" argument, but ditch diggers are far more plentiful than the people capable of maintaining that type of "empire"
[/quote]

I'm looking at this three-legged boxer we got running around, and right now I got half a mind to find his missing leg and knock you upside the fucking head with it.

It's not the hospital's job to determine who's worth more to the machine. It's their job to treat injury and illness. The end. Financial status does not make you more important than the next guy. Can some one back me up here?

Holy fuck dude.

In any case, I've got one more ticket to Fuckoffity Land. You should take it and try out their hospitals.

[thejuggernaut]

That might be one of the most elitist selfish loads of shit I've ever heard on this board.

That's great.

In a progressive tax system, who is more valuable to the machine that runs on tax dollars, $16 per hour man, or the guy who makes a few hundred thousand dollars and employs hundreds of people ?

Don't answer because the answer is obvious.

If they can't jump the line by outright buying their way to the front, an emphasis should be placed on getting the big contributors back to their roles as quickly as possible. If a person pays more in taxes than another person makes, you're god damned right they should jump to the front of the line.

You can use the "the world needs ditch diggers" argument, but ditch diggers are far more plentiful than the people capable of maintaining that type of "empire"

I'm looking at this three-legged boxer we got running around, and right now I got half a mind to find his missing leg and knock you upside the fucking head with it.

It's not the hospital's job to determine who's worth more to the machine. It's their job to treat injury and illness. The end. Financial status does not make you more important than the next guy. Can some one back me up here?

Holy fuck dude.

In any case, I've got one more ticket to Fuckoffity Land. You should take it and try out their hospitals.

Then it's a good thing the hospital doesn't determine that.

P.S. So the piss stinking vagrant or the welfare slob is as important as someone who pays tens upon tens of thousands of dollars in taxes and employs people ? Interesting.

[Tykel]

Your argument makes sense in the perspective that you are comparing two absolute extremes but it fails to account for the median group, of normal people.

You can have your rich parasites, who defraud and use their money to buy themselves out of murder charges, and have zero moral caliber. Or a piss stinking disabled veteran who has been used up and spit out by the core.

You can have the middle class family, mom and dad work their butts off and still do not make enough, but are great parents, have a great family. Why are they worth anything less?

The problem with valuing people because of their money is that money can not buy intrinsic character. These kinds of arguments is what can lead people to rationalize others as being sub-human, and to "Godwin" this thread, rationalize extermination of valueless subhumans.

You take away the rich mans money, and your still left with a man.

[vanitybinge]

Your argument makes sense in the perspective that you are comparing two absolute extremes but it fails to account for the median group, of normal people.

You can have your rich parasites, who defraud and use their money to buy themselves out of murder charges, and have zero moral caliber. Or a piss stinking disabled veteran who has been used up and spit out by the core.

You can have the middle class family, mom and dad work their butts off and still do not make enough, but are great parents, have a great family. Why are they worth anything less?

The problem with valuing people because of their money is that money can not buy intrinsic character. These kinds of arguments is what can lead people to rationalize others as being sub-human, and to "Godwin" this thread, rationalize extermination of valueless subhumans.

You take away the rich mans money, and your still left with a man.

Thank you. I would have said the same thing, but with a lot more fist-shaking and 80's Eddie Murphy style swearing and hollering. But you made the point.

[thejuggernaut]

Your argument makes sense in the perspective that you are comparing two absolute extremes but it fails to account for the median group, of normal people.

You can have your rich parasites, who defraud and use their money to buy themselves out of murder charges, and have zero moral caliber. Or a piss stinking disabled veteran who has been used up and spit out by the core.

You can have the middle class family, mom and dad work their butts off and still do not make enough, but are great parents, have a great family. Why are they worth anything less?

The problem with valuing people because of their money is that money can not buy intrinsic character. These kinds of arguments is what can lead people to rationalize others as being sub-human, and to "Godwin" this thread, rationalize extermination of valueless subhumans.

You take away the rich mans money, and your still left with a man.

Thank you. I would have said the same thing, but with a lot more fist-shaking and 80's Eddie Murphy style swearing and hollering. But you made the point.

At the end of the day, the CEO of a successful Fortune 500 company is far more valuable than the bum on the street.

It sure does sound callous, but it's true, as much as you might not like/want to believe it.

[vanitybinge]

Your argument makes sense in the perspective that you are comparing two absolute extremes but it fails to account for the median group, of normal people.

You can have your rich parasites, who defraud and use their money to buy themselves out of murder charges, and have zero moral caliber. Or a piss stinking disabled veteran who has been used up and spit out by the core.

You can have the middle class family, mom and dad work their butts off and still do not make enough, but are great parents, have a great family. Why are they worth anything less?

The problem with valuing people because of their money is that money can not buy intrinsic character. These kinds of arguments is what can lead people to rationalize others as being sub-human, and to "Godwin" this thread, rationalize extermination of valueless subhumans.

You take away the rich mans money, and your still left with a man.

Thank you. I would have said the same thing, but with a lot more fist-shaking and 80's Eddie Murphy style swearing and hollering. But you made the point.

At the end of the day, the CEO of a successful Fortune 500 company is far more valuable than the bum on the street.

It sure does sound callous, but it's true, as much as you might not like/want to believe it.

Tell that to the guys who lost their fortunes and are now 'bums on the street" because some CEO like Madoff fucked them over.

I don't care about your callousness so much as I do the fact that you seem to base a person's worth entirely on their income. If I'm given the task to choose who to save from a big disaster, the size of your wallet isn't going to matter to me as much as what kind of person you are.

You are not your wallet
You are not your job
You are not your car
You are not your khakis
You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake

[thejuggernaut]

Tell that to the guys who lost their fortunes and are now 'bums on the street" because some CEO like Madoff fucked them over.

I don't care about your callousness so much as I do the fact that you seem to base a person's worth entirely on their income. If I'm given the task to choose who to save from a big disaster, the size of your wallet isn't going to matter to me as much as what kind of person you are.

You are not your wallet
You are not your job
You are not your car
You are not your khakis
You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake

I don't base a person's worth on their income, the system does. And we're not talking about disasters; we are talking about potentially fatal health conditions and, as horrible as it is to say, in a system where money governs everything, it's in the best interests of the system to get the person who has hundreds/thousands relying on him/her back in the game before the person who relies on hundreds/thousands.