Killeverything's (New)NeverEndingBaseballThread

[Sheep_Mafia]

Rivera was great in the minors pre cutter. He had 10 or so starts and moved to the pen like a lot of young pitchers with the plan to get him back in the rotation. He was so brilliant though that they never could move him back. He had other pitches at the time but after he found that cutter he didn't need anything else because its in my view the single greatest pitch in the history of baseball.

Who knows but I think he would have been a dominant starter with the cutter and his other pitches that he used to great success coming up. I think he could have been Greg Maddox with better stuff. Sure minor league success doesn't always translate, we all know that, but the guy has other qualities-his demeanor, competitiveness and will. Plus he is a guy that just knows how to pitch. You can't throw basically one pitch, even as great as that one pitch is, and have the success he's had without just flat out knowing how to pitch.

To me, he is as good a baseball player that has ever played. No player has ever stood there with the game on the line in the biggest situation with the ball or bat in their hands as he has. There's always an argument that you can't compare a starter to a reliever but I don't think you can compare Rivera to any other reliever or any other pitcher to him. He transends the closer role and is the most valuable player of his generation.

[Machado]

The rivalry between the New York Yankees and the Boston Red Sox burns strongly even when it comes to waiver claims.

When the New York Mets and Red Sox worked out a trade for left-handed reliever Billy Wagner earlier this week, Chris Carter, an outfielder-first baseman currently playing for Triple-A Pawtucket, became part of the deal as a player to be named headed to Boston, sources said. In preparation for the deal, the Red Sox placed Carter on waivers, with the intention of moving him on to the Mets.

But the Yankees, sources said, placed a claim on Carter -- perhaps to create some 40-man roster discomfort for the Red Sox. In order to complete the Wagner trade, the Red Sox are now pulling Carter back from waivers, and for the rest of the year they must carry him on their 40-man roster.

And Boston may struggle to squeeze bodies onto its 40-man roster in September. When Paul Byrd was a free agent, he informed teams that as a condition for signing him -- he since has signed a minor-league deal with the Red Sox -- he wanted a guarantee that he would be added to the 40-man roster for the final month of the regular season.

If Boston has made that same concession, the Carter claim by the Yankees might have made that just a little more difficult.

[SkyDog112046]

Kazmir to the Angels? Reports are that Tampa is close to sending Scott Kazmir to the Angels for prospects in order to dump salary to help them with signings this off season.

They aren't that far out of the wild card spot and it seems like it's too early to give up on the season. It will be a nice pickup for LA but I wouldn't be surprised if someone blocks the move.

[Sheep_Mafia]

Kazmir to the Angels? Reports are that Tampa is close to sending Scott Kazmir to the Angels for prospects in order to dump salary to help them with signings this off season.

They aren't that far out of the wild card spot and it seems like it's too early to give up on the season. It will be a nice pickup for LA but I wouldn't be surprised if someone blocks the move.

Reportedly, he cleared waivers earlier in the month. If true, no one can block it. Rays doing a salary dump of an underperforming player.

[tin00can]

Kazmir to the Angels? Reports are that Tampa is close to sending Scott Kazmir to the Angels for prospects in order to dump salary to help them with signings this off season.

They aren't that far out of the wild card spot and it seems like it's too early to give up on the season. It will be a nice pickup for LA but I wouldn't be surprised if someone blocks the move.

Reportedly, he cleared waivers earlier in the month. If true, no one can block it. Rays doing a salary dump of an underperforming player.

A "source" I have says the trade will be officially announced after the Rays game, so take that as you will. Kazmir looks to be returning to 08 form over his last few starts so this could be a good deal. However, if he goes tits up the Angels are on the hook for a lot of salary. Torres is a helluva prospect, I think this kid will be good for them in a short time.

[JakeYonkel]

Kazmir is far too frustrating and as a Tampa supporter I'm glad they're rid of him. Terrific stuff but is the typical 5 2/3 innings, 6 walks, 8 strikeouts kinda guy. Throws way too many pitches. Maybe LA can fix his control, in which case.. look out. I just don't think he was going to put it together in Tampa.

FTR I don't think he's ever pitched a complete game.

He's probably similar to Jonathan Sanchez of the Giants. I think his stuff would translate better in the NL.

What do you know about this Angels prospect, Tin? I've never heard of him.

[killeverything]

Rivera was great in the minors pre cutter. He had 10 or so starts and moved to the pen like a lot of young pitchers with the plan to get him back in the rotation. He was so brilliant though that they never could move him back. He had other pitches at the time but after he found that cutter he didn't need anything else because its in my view the single greatest pitch in the history of baseball.

Who knows but I think he would have been a dominant starter with the cutter and his other pitches that he used to great success coming up. I think he could have been Greg Maddox with better stuff. Sure minor league success doesn't always translate, we all know that, but the guy has other qualities-his demeanor, competitiveness and will. Plus he is a guy that just knows how to pitch. You can't throw basically one pitch, even as great as that one pitch is, and have the success he's had without just flat out knowing how to pitch.

To me, he is as good a baseball player that has ever played. No player has ever stood there with the game on the line in the biggest situation with the ball or bat in their hands as he has. There's always an argument that you can't compare a starter to a reliever but I don't think you can compare Rivera to any other reliever or any other pitcher to him. He transends the closer role and is the most valuable player of his generation.

I was always under the impression that they thought he would be better in the bullpen. At least how I heard it "dominant starter" wasn't something they thought would be a possibility.

I could be wrong. In fact at some point next week I'll try to post his AAA numbers as a starter. I think it would be interesting to look at. Rivera is one of the all-time greats. I would enjoy seeing his numbers as a prospect.

I'm not sure where I heard the organizations decision to convert him to the BP. I wanna say that we discussed here on the now defunckt Never Ending Baseball Thread. Regardless, we've had some cool discussions here, and Rivera is a guy that his uniform doesn't matter, because everyone admires him.

"The fastball is the best pitch, because if you can locate it. You have like 4 different pitches". - Luis Tiant

( Cut Fastball, Slider, 4 seam, 2 seam/splitter )

A "source" I have says the trade will be officially announced after the Rays game, so take that as you will. Kazmir looks to be returning to 08 form over his last few starts so this could be a good deal. However, if he goes tits up the Angels are on the hook for a lot of salary. Torres is a helluva prospect, I think this kid will be good for them in a short time.

The biggest deal with Kazmir, as in why the Angels were the only team to claim him off waivers. Is he makes 22m a year. Anaheim could be getting a great pitcher, but they could afford to. It will be interestinfg to see how it all plays out.

The MFY's blocking of Wagner is pretty funny. All they would have to do is DFA, Cash. It will work out for them. I laughed when I heard they did that.

Oh yeah, the reports right now is they claimed Penny off waivers. It ain't the NL. Good luck with that one.

[JakeYonkel]

I laugh at all the Mets fans calling the Yankees "classless" for the Chris Carter block. Please.

[killeverything]

I laugh at all the Mets fans calling the Yankees "classless" for the Chris Carter block. Please.

Seriously?

I think it was smart strategic managing on the MFY's part. Funny as hell, but pretty damn smart.

I would like to think ( or hope ) that the Mighty Red Sox would do the same thing if situations were reversed.

I got a 20 spot that say's the NY media would call Boston "classless" too. Probably Tampa also.

[JakeYonkel]

I don't think it's even the media, because even they understand what NY was doing. It's the fans I've seen on various sites, thinking the Yankees were just blocking Carter from getting a few games under his belt and development in a Mets uniform, with no other reason.

But yeah, especially on ESPN, you know if Theo did this he'd be a genius, but if the Yankees do it it's "classless."

If they cause some roster difficulties for Boston, it's worked out well. It's gamesmanship, you should expect no less. Playing by the rules.

[tin00can]

Kazmir is far too frustrating and as a Tampa supporter I'm glad they're rid of him. Terrific stuff but is the typical 5 2/3 innings, 6 walks, 8 strikeouts kinda guy. Throws way too many pitches. Maybe LA can fix his control, in which case.. look out. I just don't think he was going to put it together in Tampa.

FTR I don't think he's ever pitched a complete game.

He's probably similar to Jonathan Sanchez of the Giants. I think his stuff would translate better in the NL.

What do you know about this Angels prospect, Tin? I've never heard of him.

I don't know much about him except that he was moving up the prospect chart fairly well. Good control pitcher with a solid ERA and K/9 rate.

It is official now. Supposedly. Now if only the Angel offense can wake the fuck up again.

[tin00can]

Kazmir was a great move for the Angels. They got him for the same reasons the Yankees got Burnett, because he pitches well against The Red Sox.

This year Kazmir is 2-0 against the Yankees and The Red Sox. That could be huge in the playoffs.

Bingo. Despite his stats this year thus far, I think he'll be the #2 starter if the Angels make the playoffs. He's also an insurance policy of sorts if Lackey is gone next year in free agency. I like this trade a lot. Then Angels have been hoarding prospects for years now; it is time to take a gamble on this year and see what happens.

[SkyDog112046]

Kazmir was a great move for the Angels. They got him for the same reasons the Yankees got Burnett, because he pitches well against The Red Sox.

This year Kazmir is 2-0 against the Yankees and The Red Sox. That could be huge in the playoffs.

That doesn't always work when the pitcher goes to a different ball park, for example when a fly ball pitcher goes to a small park.

Burnett is 1-3 with an ERA around 9 against the Red Sox this season. He did well in Toronto but Boston typically chokes up there for some reason.

Kazmir eats Boston alive when he's healthy. He could be the difference maker if it ends up being a Boston/LA first round matchup.

[killeverything]

I like the Kazmir trade a lot also.

I think that could be huge for them. Unfortunately Kazmir has feasted on Boston since he came to the AL East, but if Anaheim get's stronger. That means if they beat Boston, they could face NY. Which is really what we all want. Beat NY.

Although he could be a Burnett part II.

[killeverything]

My interest in the Scott Kazmir trade has been peaking all day. I decided to look up some information about it. We all seem to think it was the 22m that was the culprit. Rays' fans ( you know the ones that quit being Boston fans when the Rays made the Playoffs ) if you want to re-sign Crawford, you have to let Kazmir's 22m go. This isn't a NY Mets move.

The more I looked into it all. It seems this might be a Billy Beane-esque move. Maybe Tampa's dropping him now, because they've seen something no one else has......or have other's seen it too? I found this at fangraphs. It's from May, but still highly relevant.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... -is-buste/

They make some interesting observations. Kazmir apparently is one of those guys some were saying it's a matter of time until he blows up.

Here's some more from THTlive. They have the same questions.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/blog_ ... as-an-ace/

Tin? Thoughts?

Oh yeah and Jake. I want Nolasco back.

[tin00can]

I'm hoping that having Kazmir back with his old pitching coach (Mike Butcher) will yield good results. As I said before, he's also an insurance policy if (most likely when) Lackey goes somewhere else in the offseason. The Angels have a few big-ticket free-agents after this year - Lackey, Figgins, Abreu, Vlad - and it will be interesting to see how many, if any, they re-sign. I want Figgy and Vlad back. Abreu would be nice, and Vlad is iffy at best.

How about some AL MVP talk? Mauer should be at the top of the list and have nobody within shouting distance. I can see Jeter getting consideration (of course, how can we not have a Yankee in the discussion?). I'd like to throw Kendry Morales in the mix. Dude carried the Angels when Vlad and Torii were out for a month, his OPS is second in the league, and his defense has been an exceptionally pleasant surprise. The Angels don't miss Teixeira at all.

Oh yeah, and speaking of Lackey, congrats on win #100 today.

[SkyDog112046]

How about some AL MVP talk? Mauer should be at the top of the list and have nobody within shouting distance. I can see Jeter getting consideration (of course, how can we not have a Yankee in the discussion?). I'd like to throw Kendry Morales in the mix. Dude carried the Angels when Vlad and Torii were out for a month, his OPS is second in the league, and his defense has been an exceptionally pleasant surprise. The Angels don't miss Teixeira at all.

Mauer all the way. A .370+ Avg and an an OPS over 1.000 as of now, will finish with 25+ HRs, 80+ RBIs and he's a catcher. It should be a unanimous vote. Anyone that votes for someone over Mauer should get their right to vote stripped.

I guess if we need to throw out some other names for discussion behind Mauer it would be Suzuki, Morales, Texiera, Youkilis, Cabrera, and Bartlett. But none of those other guys deserves a 1st place vote.

[thejuggernaut]

How about some AL MVP talk? Mauer should be at the top of the list and have nobody within shouting distance. I can see Jeter getting consideration (of course, how can we not have a Yankee in the discussion?). I'd like to throw Kendry Morales in the mix. Dude carried the Angels when Vlad and Torii were out for a month, his OPS is second in the league, and his defense has been an exceptionally pleasant surprise. The Angels don't miss Teixeira at all.

Mauer all the way. A .370+ Avg and an an OPS over 1.000 as of now, will finish with 25+ HRs, 80+ RBIs and he's a catcher. It should be a unanimous vote. Anyone that votes for someone over Mauer should get their right to vote stripped.

I guess if we need to throw out some other names for discussion behind Mauer it would be Suzuki, Morales, Texiera, Youkilis, Cabrera, and Bartlett. But none of those other guys deserves a 1st place vote.

Actually, it should come down to playoffs.

If the Twins finish the way they have played so far, to hell with Mauer and go with Morales or Jeter.

If Texas can sneak in the WC then Michael Young has to be considered.

[JakeYonkel]

Playoffs should have no impact on the MVP vote. It's not Mauer's fault he can't carry an entire team of stiffs (sans Morneau and Nathan). If his numbers were close to somebody else I could see erring to the playoff side, but he's head and shoulders above anybody else in contention.

Teixeira has good power numbers but Mauer buries him overall. If Jeter couldn't win it in 99 or 06, it's not happening this year.

The only guys that should be excluded from MVP votes are pitchers and DHs. The Cy Young is for pitchers, and DHs only play half the game. Unless of course their numbers are ridiculous compared to the next guy. Similar to Ortiz vs. A-Rod in '07 - numbers were too close and it went to the guy that plays on both sides of the ball.

[SkyDog112046]

Playoffs should have no impact on the MVP vote. It's not Mauer's fault he can't carry an entire team of stiffs (sans Morneau and Nathan). If his numbers were close to somebody else I could see erring to the playoff side, but he's head and shoulders above anybody else in contention.

Teixeira has good power numbers but Mauer buries him overall. If Jeter couldn't win it in 99 or 06, it's not happening this year.

The only guys that should be excluded from MVP votes are pitchers and DHs. The Cy Young is for pitchers, and DHs only play half the game. Unless of course their numbers are ridiculous compared to the next guy. Similar to Ortiz vs. A-Rod in '07 - numbers were too close and it went to the guy that plays on both sides of the ball.

I agree. Playoffs should only be factored in if the numbers are very close. And in this case the numbers aren't even remotely close and the player being discussed is a catcher. Baseball isn't like the NBA where one MVP caliber guy can carry a team of stiffs to the playoffs.

[killeverything]

I'm hoping that having Kazmir back with his old pitching coach (Mike Butcher) will yield good results. As I said before, he's also an insurance policy if (most likely when) Lackey goes somewhere else in the offseason. The Angels have a few big-ticket free-agents after this year - Lackey, Figgins, Abreu, Vlad - and it will be interesting to see how many, if any, they re-sign. I want Figgy and Vlad back. Abreu would be nice, and Vlad is iffy at best.

How about some AL MVP talk? Mauer should be at the top of the list and have nobody within shouting distance. I can see Jeter getting consideration (of course, how can we not have a Yankee in the discussion?). I'd like to throw Kendry Morales in the mix. Dude carried the Angels when Vlad and Torii were out for a month, his OPS is second in the league, and his defense has been an exceptionally pleasant surprise. The Angels don't miss Teixeira at all.

Oh yeah, and speaking of Lackey, congrats on win #100 today.

I agree that Mauer is having the best season is baseball, but so was Arod in 2003. When the Rangers finished last. He shouldn't have won the MVP then. If Minnesota misses the playoffs Mauer shouldn't either.

How valueable were you if you didn't make the Post-Season?

I came across these numbers for the sake of arguement. These are the leaders.

Franklin Gutierrez Mariners WPA3.51 HIT37.7 POS0.7 PT0.2 DEF20.2 BR1.4 TOT60.2
Ben Zobrist Rays WPA3.21 HIT34.5 POS2.0 PT-0.9 DEF20.3 BR1.7 TOT57.5
Choe Figgins Angels WPA2.86 HIT30.7 POS-0.6 PT0.8 BR18.1 DEF18.1 BR4.1 TOT53.1
Joe Mauer Twins WPA3.34 HIT35.9 POS6.2 PTO-1.3 BR5.0 DEF-1.0 TOT44.8
Marco Scutaro Blue Jays WPA1.20 HIT12.9 POS9.0 PTO0.6 DEF15.0 BR2.1 TOT39.6
Jason Bartlett Rays WPA2.92 HIT31.4 POS6.6 PTO-1.0 DEF-1.7 DEF3.3 TOT38.5
Ichiro Suzuki Mariners WPA2.32 HIT24.9 POS-6.0 PTO0.0 9.7 DEF5.2 TOT33.8

Notice how Jeter, Teix, or Johnny Yankee ain't nowhere near the top. I got a feeling though that Jeter is going to win the MVP this year. These are the same people that fellate him every game. That gave a subpar SS two Gold Gloves. That gave him a Silver Slugger award ( that's the power-hitter award. The one that's for 50-60 HR guys ). Jeter doesn't have an MVP and that's tragic. He'll get one this year.

I thought that Teix would be closer to the top personally. I was thinking on observartions and not numbers that he'd be a viable canidate. He's the MVP of the MFY. Not according to ESPN, but he is.

[JakeYonkel]

I'm telling you, if Jeter got robbed by Morneau in 2006, he's not winning it this year. He hasn't had nearly as good a year as he did then, and Mauer's having an even better year than Morneau did. Oddly enough Pedroia (whose numbers paled in comparison to '06 Jeter) still beat out Morneau last year... but I digress.

I think it is Mauer or Teixeira personally, not saying Tex deserves it but if you're going with a playoff guy, it's gonna be him. Kendry Morales should get some love but probably won't.

[killeverything]

I'm thinking it's gonna be Teix really. I was for sure his numbers would be better. I'm kind of surprised really.

My thinking on Jeter's canidacy was just the inane bullshit, I've heard said about him on ESPN. Tazawa/MFY game. They were congratulating him for not getting to a ball. Saying "that was a great effort by Jeter". What is this the fucking Little League? Good job big guy. I think they'll give him one just to give him one. After the Gold Gloves. Nothing surprises me anymore.

I don't think Jeter was robbed by Morneau. The MVP that shoulda been his, after they fucked Pedro was 1999.

For team's in the Playoffs, and led to the Playoffs so to speak. Is Teix, he's having a fucking monster year.

[killeverything]

I just found this on the Wagner/MFY blockage. This is some smart fucking manuevering.

One reason the Yankees put in a claim for Chris Carter was because of Paul Byrd. Stick with us here.

Byrd spent most of this season as a free agent and the Yankees were negotiating with him around midseason to bring him in as rotation insurance, a source told The Post. The Yanks were told by Byrd that they were his first choice, the source said. However, the Yanks refused Byrd's request to be assured of a Sept. 1 promotion.

So Byrd signed earlier this month with the Red Sox.

When the Yanks learned that Carter was one of the players that was going to the Mets in the Billy Wagner deal, they claimed Carter him on waivers and forced Boston to pull the outfielder/first baseman back. One reason was they assumed Boston had to make the same deal with Byrd -- to bring him up on Sept. 1 -- that the Yanks refused. So that meant Byrd has to be put on the 40-man roster. So the Yanks figured they could cause some 40-man roster havoc for their main nemesis by forcing Carter back on the 40-man, as well, at a time when Wagner, too, had to be added and Daisuke Matsuzaka is close to coming back from the 60-day DL.

http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/st/archi ... ed_ya.html

Kudos to Cashman and Co. What was even cooler than that though is Wagner's 1IP 1H 3K 0.00ERA today.

[thejuggernaut]

Playoffs should have no impact on the MVP vote. It's not Mauer's fault he can't carry an entire team of stiffs (sans Morneau and Nathan). If his numbers were close to somebody else I could see erring to the playoff side, but he's head and shoulders above anybody else in contention.

Teixeira has good power numbers but Mauer buries him overall. If Jeter couldn't win it in 99 or 06, it's not happening this year.

The only guys that should be excluded from MVP votes are pitchers and DHs. The Cy Young is for pitchers, and DHs only play half the game. Unless of course their numbers are ridiculous compared to the next guy. Similar to Ortiz vs. A-Rod in '07 - numbers were too close and it went to the guy that plays on both sides of the ball.

The award is called "Most Valuable Player".

It suggests "where would the team be without him".

You can also work on the idea of "where are they WITH him" ?

It's hard to say a player from a .500, non playoff team is the most valuable.

Sure, the team may be worse off without him, but they aren't exactly tearing it up with him.

They play in the most mediocre division division as well.

It's no worse an argument than your "dh should be excluded" argument. It's not the DH's fault that he plays for an AL team and they had a first baseman who was better defensively and the manager wanted to maximize the lineup.

However, since you want to include the "every day" player, Mauer has missed 26 games so far. He's played 20 games at DH. So he's only played 84 games at his position.

Want to grade him by his primary position ? His fielding % is around average for a catcher. He only throws out %28 of baserunners.

P.S. If you want to bring up past votes, it's the reason why Rickey was chosen over Fielder. Rickey played on the team with the best record, whereas Fielder played on a losing team.

[killeverything]

The problem is that precedent has been set where guys from last place teams ie Banks, Dawson have won the award.

Also, factors like splitting the vote ie Tex/Jeter affect the outcome.

I think based on these factors Mauer will win. I'm a Yankees fan, but I think Texiera's presence has been the main difference in the lineup and in the infield, and why it is not a coincidence that Jeter is arguably having his best year on both sides since the late 1990's. That's why personally, I would vote for Tex. But I'm an unbashed homer.

Teix would have my vote this year.

[Machado]

ESPN reporting that brad penny is going to the giants. Also says that penny more than likely will face the dodgers, if the rotation lines up correctly. Now that might be a game to watch since he's expressed his dislike for the team/franchise since departing.

[killeverything]

ESPN reporting that brad penny is going to the giants. Also says that penny more than likely will face the dodgers, if the rotation lines up correctly. Now that might be a game to watch since he's expressed his dislike for the team/franchise since departing.

They're were just saying that on MLBN. He'll pitch in the #5 slot. Penny is moving back to the NL, which is easier than the AL East certainly. The problem is he's notoriously a first half pitcher. So I don't think San Fran is going to get too much out of him.

As for him hating LA. Is it because he just didn't like it there, or is it because Alyssa Milano dumped him and she's a huge Dodgers fan?

I know if I was ever dumped by Alyssa. I. Would. Never. Get. Over. It.

*edit*

I just heard Kenny Williams said the entire Chicago White Sox roster is open for trade. Geez, any ChiSox fans here care to comment on that? It's a long way to go since 2005.

[killeverything]

Holy fucking shit.

[killeverything]

Holy fucking shit. When the White Sox have a fire sale, they have a fucking fire sale. I don't know the details yet. It's being reported that Thome is heading to the Dodgers, and Conteras is going to the Rockies.

That's a hell of a pinch hitter in Thome, there is no way they let him play 1B. The guy's got the range of Mike Lowell now.

They also are saying the Galand is heading to LA too. On MLBN they showed Garland in the dugout after being told of being traded.....he was smiling.

LA's picked up some big trades this season. Sherril, Thome, Garland. Last time Manny and Thome were together in Cleveland it was an offensive juggernaught. Los Angeles was already pretty tough. They're really going all out this season.