All the conservatives crying about

[Ugmo]

... Obama's "broken promises." What are you going to do, not vote for him again next time?

[SmokeyRamone]

I'm not a conservative, but I do think Obama should be called more on his bullshit, perhaps the more it's talked about, the more people who did vote for him will realize he was willing to do or say anything to get elected, and keep that in mind next time around, sure, he's just another lying politician, no shock there, but you're acting like people who didn't vote for the guy have no right to point out the fact that he's a liar, and I can't see the logic in that

Mister Transparency has proven he's no better than any other politician who'll say anything to get the job, all that bullshit about hope and change was just that, bullshit, and some of keep bringing it up so people don't forget it

[Ugmo]

Because it seems completely insincere to me. It's mostly people who never liked Obama anyway and didn't vote for him feigning outrage at his supposed "lies." And the way they go on about it, you'd think he has a pretty poor track record - but no, there is a site that tracks campaign promises and it turns out he's kept most of them!

To use a Sludge analogy, it's like when people bag on Winger for "selling out" in the 80s. "Man, those guys played in the Dixie Dregs, and then did She's Only Seventeen!" Oh, you were a big Dixie Dregs fan, were you?

[SmokeyRamone]

I don't see anything insincere about wanting the best for your country, even when the guy you didn't vote for wins, and when a guy promises not to raise taxes on the middle class and says he's against a health care mandate, then totally abandons those positions, and wants to enact a mandate, and raise taxes for those who don't go along with it, sorry, but that's fucked up, just as it would be fucked up if a republican did it

I don't see these partisan issues, I see them as government issues, and no matter who's in power, if I feel like they're fucking things up, I'm going to say something whether I voted for them or not

[Ugmo]

I don't see anything insincere about wanting the best for your country, even when the guy you didn't vote for wins, and when a guy promises not to raise taxes on the middle class and says he's against a health care mandate, then totally abandons those positions, and wants to enact a mandate, and raise taxes for those who don't go along with it, sorry, but that's fucked up, just as it would be fucked up if a republican did it

I don't see these partisan issues, I see them as government issues, and no matter who's in power, if I feel like they're fucking things up, I'm going to say something whether I voted for them or not

Okay, so in your case, the promise you are most upset about is the mandate, is that correct?

That is a case of political reality. He can't just show up in Washington and wave a magic wand and everything happens the way he wants it to. The best way to avoid a mandate would have been a public option, but 40 Republican Senators and a handful of Democrats and Joe Liebermann obstructed that. Even with a majority of Senators who would have voted for it, it couldn't be done. So Obama is left with a situation where he can basically either abandon health care reform completely or bite the bullet and accept a mandate. Seems to me like you are blaming him for something that isn't entirely his fault.

Second, how is he raising taxes on the middle class? Maybe he is and I'm not aware of it. But are you talking about the cigarette tax or something? Or the mandate itself?

[SmokeyRamone]

I don't see anything insincere about wanting the best for your country, even when the guy you didn't vote for wins, and when a guy promises not to raise taxes on the middle class and says he's against a health care mandate, then totally abandons those positions, and wants to enact a mandate, and raise taxes for those who don't go along with it, sorry, but that's fucked up, just as it would be fucked up if a republican did it

I don't see these partisan issues, I see them as government issues, and no matter who's in power, if I feel like they're fucking things up, I'm going to say something whether I voted for them or not

Okay, so in your case, the promise you are most upset about is the mandate, is that correct?

That is a case of political reality. He can't just show up in Washington and wave a magic wand and everything happens the way he wants it to. The best way to avoid a mandate would have been a public option, but 40 Republican Senators and a handful of Democrats and Joe Liebermann obstructed that. Even with a majority of Senators who would have voted for it, it couldn't be done. So Obama is left with a situation where he can basically either abandon health care reform completely or bite the bullet and accept a mandate. Seems to me like you are blaming him for something that isn't entirely his fault.

Second, how is he raising taxes on the middle class? Maybe he is and I'm not aware of it. But are you talking about the cigarette tax or something? Or the mandate itself?

I'm talking about the mandate itself, if we don't all fall in line like good little minions, there's going to be a tax penalty, sure, it hasn't passed yet, but Obama is heavily pushing for it, so it's a tax right now he's trying to pass, and probably eventually will, thus, any middle class person who decides that what they do with their money is their business and not the big nanny government, will be accessed a fine in the form of a tax

even when the public option was being touted, there was still a mandate, in fact, if I remember right, he's had one since day one of his attempt at health care reform, he was against it, then he was for it, he's never explained why he changed his position, and I can't blame anyone else for this except him, not the republicans, not Lieberman, not anyone else, he's the one that said he was against it on the campaign trail, not any of those guys

[Ugmo]

Okay, fine. In that case call him out on the mandate rather than feigning outrage about other broken promises that you aren't actually upset about.

Personally, I live in a country where I am forced to purchase health insurance. And yes, it's a lot of money, but at least I'm paying for my own insurance, and not additionally for people who don't have insurance.

[SmokeyRamone]

Okay, fine. In that case call him out on the mandate rather than feigning outrage about other broken promises that you aren't actually upset about.

Personally, I live in a country where I am forced to purchase health insurance. And yes, it's a lot of money, but at least I'm paying for my own insurance, and not additionally for people who don't have insurance.

it's not just the lies about the mandate that I think he should be called out for, its middle class tax thing, it's all the promises of transparency, it's a lot of things, but yeah, the mandate is at the top of my list, but again, I think his lies need to keep being brought up so they don't get buried and people forget them, a lot of people don't care that he lied, and that's great, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I think it's worth noting and remembering that there are promises the man has not kept, and some outright lies he's told, despite all his talk of hope and change, he's shown that he's just another lying politician

[SmokeyRamone]

if this passes, it's not outside the realm of possibility that someone could be sent to jail for not purchasing health insurance

so much for living in a free society

[Drunk Kennedy]

its not conservatives that you need to worry about...its the independents and moderate dems, and many of them probably wont vote for obama again.

[Ugmo]

its not conservatives that you need to worry about...its the independents and moderate dems, and many of them probably wont vote for obama again.

Sure they will... the Republicans will run Sarah Palin or some other dimbulb against him and those people will remember why they voted for him the first time. And in three years no one is even going to remember that the reconciliation negoatiations weren't shown on C-Span or these other minor issues.

Keep in mind the Republican Party is swinging further and further to the right - the chances of them nominating an electable candidate in 2012 are slipping all the time.

if this passes, it's not outside the realm of possibility that someone could be sent to jail for not purchasing health insurance

so much for living in a free society

Damn dude, do you piss and moan this much about paying your taxes too?

[SmokeyRamone]

with all the money the government wastes, I'm not thrilled with the rate of taxes I pay, but the mandate is a whole different story, it sets a dangerous precedent in my opinion, and would take us down a road to more and more government control. I don't need the government telling me how to spend my money and live my life, I can do just fine on my own

(ETA) and how is my comment about jail pissing and moaning, what I stated is a fact, and if not wanting the government to have that much control over my life and my money is pissing and moaning, then so be it, freedom of choice still means something to some of us

[Ugmo]

with all the money the government wastes, I'm not thrilled with the rate of taxes I pay, but the mandate is a whole different story, it sets a dangerous precedent in my opinion, and would take us down a road to more and more government control. I don't need the government telling me how to spend my money and live my life, I can do just fine on my own

That's great, but when you choose not to use your money to buy health insurance and then get sick, everyone else has to pay for you.

[SmokeyRamone]

with all the money the government wastes, I'm not thrilled with the rate of taxes I pay, but the mandate is a whole different story, it sets a dangerous precedent in my opinion, and would take us down a road to more and more government control. I don't need the government telling me how to spend my money and live my life, I can do just fine on my own

That's great, but when you choose not to use your money to buy health insurance and then get sick, everyone else has to pay for you.

there are a lot of what ifs out there, should the government force us to insure ourselves against all of them, where should it stop? I went without insurance for years, and when I got sick and went to the doctor, I paid for my visit and my prescriptions, sometimes it took me a while, but I always paid everything off, so no, everyone else did not have to pay for me

[Ugmo]

there are a lot of what ifs out there, should the government force us to insure ourselves against all of them, where should it stop? I went without insurance for years, and when I got sick and went to the doctor, I paid for my visit and my prescriptions, sometimes it took me a while, but I always paid everything off, so no, everyone else did not have to pay for me

You were presumably lucky enough (I know that's relative, so don't take that the wrong way) not to be afflicted with something that would have wiped you out financially.

[SmokeyRamone]

there are a lot of what ifs out there, should the government force us to insure ourselves against all of them, where should it stop? I went without insurance for years, and when I got sick and went to the doctor, I paid for my visit and my prescriptions, sometimes it took me a while, but I always paid everything off, so no, everyone else did not have to pay for me

You were presumably lucky enough (I know that's relative, so don't take that the wrong way) not to be afflicted with something that would have wiped you out financially.

sure, you were right, I was never majorly injured or hurt, but that doesn't change the fact that the mandate would set a dangerous precedent, I don't have an issue with health care reform, but a mandate crosses the line for me and a lot of other people, taxes are one thing, telling everyone they have to do business with the same corporations the dems have been maligning for the last few months for being evil and profit driven is just plain wrong

I've asked this before and never gotten an answer, if the mandate is such a good idea, what other goods or services should the government mandate we buy? How far should this go?

[bane]

... Obama's "broken promises." What are you going to do, not vote for him again next time?

I find it baffling that you aren't concerned by it.

[thejuggernaut]

NEWS: Comprehensive List of Tax Hikes in
Reid-Obama Health Bill UPDATED
From Ryan Ellis on Saturday, December 19, 2009 1:46 PM
PDF Version

List of tax hikes in original Reid bill

Manager's Amendment

CBO Score of Manager’s Amendment

JCT Score of Manager’s Amendment

(Page numbers reference ORIGINAL REID-OBAMA BILL unless noted):

Individual Mandate Tax (Page 324/Sec. 1501/$15 bil/Jan 2014): Starting in 2014, anyone not buying “qualifying” health insurance must pay an income surtax according to the higher of the following (page 71 of manager’s amendment updates Reid bill):

Single 2 People 3+ People
2014 $495/0.5% AGI $990/0.5% AGI $1485/0.5%/AGI
2015 $495/1.0% AGI $990/1.0% AGI $1485/1.0%/AGI
2016+ $495/2.0% AGI $990/2.0% AGI $1485/2.0%/AGI



Exemptions for religious objectors, undocumented immigrants, prisoners, those earning less than the poverty line, members of Indian tribes, and hardship cases (determined by HHS).

Um, what ?

[bane]

Those people aren't exactly filing taxes anyway Juggs. I wondered about that. Seeing as how we'll be mandated that everyone legally in the country will be insured, do we still have to pay for their emergency care?

[Ugmo]

... Obama's "broken promises." What are you going to do, not vote for him again next time?

I find it baffling that you aren't concerned by it.

Well you have to put it into context. Some of them aren't broken promises at all... they're things he attempted to address and didn't get his way with Congress. Or they're things like not publicly broadcasting the reconciliation negotiations, which I think is a very good idea, because last time he let the public get involved it turned into a farce. The "broken promise" that bothers me the most is how he abandoned the public option. But then I can somewhat understand it - it wasn't going to get through Congress anyway what with several Dems and all 40 Republicans opposing it, so it was either abandon it or futilely support it and likely end up not getting any health care reform bill passed at all.

But most of all I view it from the perspective that anyone who takes candidates' campaign promises at face value is a fool anyway. Candidates will say anything to get elected. On the major issues he hasn't done much I didn't expect him to do, so I'm not going to get bent out of shape about minor about-faces and flip-flops.

[lerxstcat]

there are a lot of what ifs out there, should the government force us to insure ourselves against all of them, where should it stop? I went without insurance for years, and when I got sick and went to the doctor, I paid for my visit and my prescriptions, sometimes it took me a while, but I always paid everything off, so no, everyone else did not have to pay for me

Sure they did. They had to pay up front, and they financed your loan in effect. Because the doctors and nurses and pharmacists couldn't wait for their paychecks until you were able to pay, the public at large carried you initially. Same thing happened to me with my heart problem when it first appeared.

That's when I found out how much they inflate the bills. Because I owed $30,000 for a 5-day stay, but when I gave them my work info and showed them I had no i nsurance and limited ability to pay, then they knocked it down to $3,000 and gave me payment terms, which I paid. But the public underwrote my loan. Thanks, y'all!

But why do they inflate the bills? Because 9 out of 10 go in through the ER, go out through the front door, and never look back, or until they have another emergency. So you're already paying for everybody in your high premium, but if everybody didn't have to use the ER for primary care, the costs would not be so high. What costs hundreds at the family doc costs thousands at the ER. And they don't know who the fuck you are coming in, and don't track you after you leave. No one to say, "hey, your triglycerides are creeping up since your last visit, better get a grip before you have a heart atack or stroke". You just walk around until you HAVE a heart attack or stroke, then the huge machinery of trying to REVERSE that damage comes into play.

[SmokeyRamone]

Those people aren't exactly filing taxes anyway Juggs. I wondered about that. Seeing as how we'll be mandated that everyone legally in the country will be insured, do we still have to pay for their emergency care?

of course we will, and illegal's aren't the only people who don't file taxes, these people are still going to need medical care, and all of us who pay our taxes, and comply with the mandate will still be paying for medical care for criminals and tax cheats

[Ugmo]

I've asked this before and never gotten an answer, if the mandate is such a good idea, what other goods or services should the government mandate we buy? How far should this go?

I don't know... what else are you thinking about? I can tell you that in Austria I have to pay my taxes and I have to pay for my health insurance, and that's it. What else do you think the government could conceivably force me to pay for? I don't really want to assume some kind of doomsday scenario where I'm handing over 100 percent of my paycheck to the government and living on the street because I can't afford my rent, as that isn't very realistic.

Edit: And auto liability insurance too of course.

[thejuggernaut]

Those people aren't exactly filing taxes anyway Juggs. I wondered about that. Seeing as how we'll be mandated that everyone legally in the country will be insured, do we still have to pay for their emergency care?

That's what I wondered. That's amazingly disturbing.

[SmokeyRamone]

I've asked this before and never gotten an answer, if the mandate is such a good idea, what other goods or services should the government mandate we buy? How far should this go?

I don't know... what else are you thinking about? I can tell you that in Austria I have to pay my taxes and I have to pay for my health insurance, and that's it. What else do you think the government could conceivably force me to pay for? I don't really want to assume some kind of doomsday scenario where I'm handing over 100 percent of my paycheck to the government and living on the street because I can't afford my rent, as that isn't very realistic.

I agree that isn't very realistic either, but so many people are gung ho about the health care mandate that I have to wonder how much government control they would welcome into their lives

here's a thread I posted a few months back about how nearly as many people in the US are "food insecure" as go without health insurance

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=214438

my point is that there are enough liberals in this country who think is the government's job to mandate things like this, and health care may very well be just the beginning

no matter how well intentioned the mandate is, I still think it's wrong in principle, this is supposed to be a free society

[Ugmo]

I agree that isn't very realistic either, but so many people are gung ho about the health care mandate that I have to wonder how much government control they would welcome into their lives

here's a thread I posted a few months back about how nearly as many people in the US are "food insecure" as go without health insurance

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=214438

my point is that there are enough liberals in this country who think is the government's job to mandate things like this, and health care may very well be just the beginning

no matter how well intentioned the mandate is, I still think it's wrong in principle, this is supposed to be a free society

I don't see what this has to do with freedom. The government could come up with a single-payer system and just add the cost of it to your taxes. They wouldn't be forcing you to do anything except pay higher taxes. Would you consider that to be an attack on your freedom?

And most of all it is just a damn good idea for everyone to have health insurance, so if you really consider that to be an attack on freedom, then I'd say I far prefer that attack on my freedom than the government wiretapping its citizens or similar steps that they have already taken.

[SmokeyRamone]

I agree that isn't very realistic either, but so many people are gung ho about the health care mandate that I have to wonder how much government control they would welcome into their lives

here's a thread I posted a few months back about how nearly as many people in the US are "food insecure" as go without health insurance

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=214438

my point is that there are enough liberals in this country who think is the government's job to mandate things like this, and health care may very well be just the beginning

no matter how well intentioned the mandate is, I still think it's wrong in principle, this is supposed to be a free society

I don't see what this has to do with freedom. The government could come up with a single-payer system and just add the cost of it to your taxes. They wouldn't be forcing you to do anything except pay higher taxes. Would you consider that to be an attack on your freedom?

And most of all it is just a damn good idea for everyone to have health insurance, so if you really consider that to be an attack on freedom, then I'd say I far prefer that attack on my freedom than the government wiretapping its citizens or similar steps that they have already taken.

with the mandate, the government is dictating what I do with my post tax income, that's taking away my freedom of choices plain and simple, sure it's smart for everyone to have health insurance, but in a free society, people shouldn't be forced into such thing, as far as wiretapping and all that shit, I don't condone that either, there have been a lot of attacks on our freedoms, and this is just another one

the government takes 30% of what I make right off the top, what I do with the rest should be my business, not theirs

[Ugmo]

the government takes 30% of what I make right off the top, what I do with the rest should be my business, not theirs

Okay, well then I respectfully disagree, as when people choose not to spend some of their disposable income on health insurance, the costs get divided amongst everyone else. Hell, I probably wouldn't buy health insurance either if I weren't forced to, so it's a good thing there's a mandate here in Austria!

[thejuggernaut]

And most of all it is just a damn good idea for everyone to have health insurance, so if you really consider that to be an attack on freedom, then I'd say I far prefer that attack on my freedom than the government wiretapping its citizens or similar steps that they have already taken.

And we all know you can't be profiled by your medical records.

[SmokeyRamone]

the government takes 30% of what I make right off the top, what I do with the rest should be my business, not theirs

Okay, well then I respectfully disagree, as when people choose not to spend some of their disposable income on health insurance, the costs get divided amongst everyone else. Hell, I probably wouldn't buy health insurance either if I weren't forced to, so it's a good thing there's a mandate here in Austria!

another point, maybe you have a fiscally responsible government, we don't, billions upon billions of dollars are lost every year in fraud and waste, so expanding their role in my life, passing more laws, and raising taxes is not a good idea in my mind, until and unless they can get their financial shit together, I fear they're only going to make things worse