Transferring Wealth From One Class To Another

[ijwthstd]

Just last week a relative of mine was complaining about illegal immigration, social services they recieve and the part that really angers him is that it "transfers wealth from one class to another."

This article published yesterday in the LA Weekly cites a study that states employers are illegally skimming $26.2 million weekly from the paychecks of the poorest workers, most - but not all - illegal immigrants.

http://www.laweekly.com/2010-02-18/news ... 2-million/

[bane]

How can you "illegally" skim from people that can't legally work in the first place? What's next, illegal immigrant unions? It's a take it or leave it proposition.

[ijwthstd]

How can you "illegally" skim from people that can't legally work in the first place? What's next, illegal immigrant unions? It's a take it or leave it proposition.

By not paying them at least minimum wage or overtime for starters. That's like saying how can you illegally beat someone up if they can't legally be here to begin with.

[bane]

How can you "illegally" skim from people that can't legally work in the first place? What's next, illegal immigrant unions? It's a take it or leave it proposition.

They can sue you for breach of contract just like they can sue you if you run into them with your car. In California they're also entitled to workers compensation benefits. Throughout the country, states are required to provide their children with public education. An illegal immigrant has most of the rights a legal immigrant has under the US Constitutions. That goes back to 1886, it's not a new law.

Aliens, even aliens whose presence in this country is unlawful, have long been recognized as "persons" guaranteed due process of law by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments. Shaughnessy v. Mezei, 345 U.S. 206, 212 (1953); Wong Wing v. United States, 163 U.S. 228, 238 (1896); Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356, 369 (1886). -PLYLER v. DOE

He can only sue for breach of contract if there's a breach of contract. IE: The employer doesn't provide what's promised. Overtime etc. would fall into that category. I'm not stating that illegal immigrants are somehow subhuman or something, what I'm asking is that if you hire a guy for X dollars and he agrees to take the job because he's illegal, how can he expect the same rights as a citizen in the context of a 40 hour work week etc.? I'm well aware of the public school thing. It's a major point of contention where I live as is the drain on our charity health care system. We have a lot of illegals here who don't pay income taxes. The drain on social programs causes a pretty big uproar. I'd argue that illegals pay into the system in other ways, like sales and property taxes, but the non paying of income tax is always going to be a point of contention.

[VinnieKulick]

Well, somebody here without a proper work visa should be deported anyway.

[bane]

Well, somebody here without a proper work visa should be deported anyway.

Impractical dude. How much do you want to pay for lettuce?

[ijwthstd]

Well, somebody here without a proper work visa should be deported anyway.

Impractical dude. How much do you want to pay for lettuce?

Whatever it costs. And if it costs too much then maybe I don't want or need it that bad.

[VinnieKulick]

Well, somebody here without a proper work visa should be deported anyway.

Impractical dude. How much do you want to pay for lettuce?

So, the law should be ignored, if it benefits me financially?

Does that go for robbing a bank too?

[Drunk Kennedy]

Well, somebody here without a proper work visa should be deported anyway.

Impractical dude. How much do you want to pay for lettuce?

its not that hard to grow your own lettuce and veggies...i have been doing it for years.

[bane]

When it comes to illegal immigration, people really need to get off of their knee jerk "it's illegal, deport them" trip. Think with your brain instead of your emotions. Illegal immigrants make up a huge portion of our economy, far more than they drain from it. The illegal immigration issue needs to be addressed, yes, because the status quo can't hold, but it needs to be addressed in a creative and responsible manner that takes everything into consideration. It's far too late to say, "It's against the law, enforce it!!!" Society has let it go on far too long to do that without having a devastating impact on our economy. "I'll pay anything", is fucking stupid. Use your brain people.

[ijwthstd]

Did someone erase their own post? Who said "I'll pay anything?"

[bane]

Excuse me, "Whatever it costs".

[ijwthstd]

Excuse me, "Whatever it costs".

Or easily do without if it costs too much. It already almost costs too much because I usually end up throwing most of it away.

[bane]

Excuse me, "Whatever it costs".

Or easily do without if it costs too much. It already almost costs too much because I usually end up throwing most of it away.

You realize that I'm not just talking about produce right?

[ijwthstd]

Excuse me, "Whatever it costs".

Or easily do without if it costs too much. It already almost costs too much because I usually end up throwing most of it away.

You realize that I'm not just talking about produce right?

I also clean my own house.

[VinnieKulick]

When it comes to illegal immigration, people really need to get off of their knee jerk "it's illegal, deport them" trip. Think with your brain instead of your emotions. Illegal immigrants make up a huge portion of our economy, far more than they drain from it.

I think its more of a knee jerk reaction to say we'd collapse our economy without them. They do menial tasks, and in some instances, do them quite well. But the bottom line is, they are illegal aliens. ILLEGAL. And, how are they working without documentation? With somebody elses SSN? So, that's fraud and identity theft, right?
Ask the California prisons administrators and hospital administrators if they are a drain on them. I'm sure the "we get cheap labor" argument doesn't mean as much to them as it would to you.

The illegal immigration issue needs to be addressed, yes, because the status quo can't hold, but it needs to be addressed in a creative and responsible manner that takes everything into consideration. It's far too late to say, "It's against the law, enforce it!!!" Society has let it go on far too long to do that without having a devastating impact on our economy. "I'll pay anything", is fucking stupid. Use your brain people.

Not for nothing, but because you think it would cost YOU more to get your goods and services, doesn't mean the rest of the nation agrees with you. And we do need to address the problem. The best solution would be to issue working visas easier and faster, and in greater numbers. But, if found without the legit documentation, yes, deportation is the answer. I can't just move to Belize and start working without going through the proper channels, why do we assume we're powerless as a nation to do it here?

Not only that, but they need to close and/or fine companies that hire illegals. Because I'm sure once they get fined a few hundred thousand dollars, they'd change their tune about if it's affordable to employ illegals.

Doesn't matter if they deport them. They are still owed the money and they can get a judgment entered against the employer and have it collected and sent to them in Mexico.

Actually, if they did deport him for being here illegally, he wouldn't be entitled to money earned in a criminal enterprise, or at least that's how I think it SHOULD work.

I have no problem at all with people wanting to come to this country and make a better life for themselves. But, we have laws in place to regulate the practice, and if we're not going to abide by them, just because it's beneficial, then we need to get the politicians to come up with a plan to fix the situation.

[vanitybinge]

I have no problem at all with people wanting to come to this country and make a better life for themselves. But, we have laws in place to regulate the practice, and if we're not going to abide by them, just because it's beneficial, then we need to get the politicians to come up with a plan to fix the situation.

This. The system we have isn't working. We can't and will not jail and deport all the people who jump the border, so we need to find a way to work it out. There's pros and cons that need to be balanced.

I have sympathy for the guy who jumps from Mexico or Brazil because his life is utter shit, his neighborhood is a constant gunfight, drug lords destroyed his town, whatever. Fucked up shit happens down there, way more fucked up than LA or Detroit. So he runs to where the grass is greener to make a better life for his family, or himself. It's break the law and escape or stay and die for a lot of them. For some it isn't , it's just better money. So I don't wanna punish that guy. He risked his life getting here, I got no problem handing him a shovel.

The system that's in place needs to change. How to change it, I'm not sure.

[absolutely fabulous]

Well, somebody here without a proper work visa should be deported anyway.

Impractical dude. How much do you want to pay for lettuce?

which season is it to buy amercian lettuce?
usually you can tell by produce prices, but lettuce? not much.

[absolutely fabulous]

i also heard at one time, that illegals or bosses of illegals do pay taxes on the service and the government eats it up not wanting to kick them out.
perhaps, undocumented income, but none the less it's government that's benefiting?

[bane]

They do more than just "menial tasks". They keep apartment complexes, car lots, grocery stores and taquerias in business. They pay property and sales taxes. They buy stuff. They pay for goods and services. There are bazilions of them. You do the math. If they were all suddenly gone it would hit everybody's pockets. I'd propose a 2 part plan. It doesn't work unless you do both parts:

1. Give any illegal that can prove he's an employed and contributing member of out society some kind of work number, like a social, and tax them just like everybody else. Basically do what Reagan did.

2. After a reasonable amount of time to get this done (say, 6 months), go after every employer, hard. If you get caught employing an illegal alien, it's 50 grand per offense or something like that. Reagan's amnesty didn't work because he never did the second part. Once it's no longer economically advantageous to hire illegals, employers will stop doing it, and consequently, illegals will stop coming.

End of problem. The economy doesn't take the hit and life goes on. Everybody is happy (except for those that would cut off their nose to spite their face by screaming, "But, but, but, they broke the LAW!!!!!1111")

[lerxstcat]

Illegal immigrants are integral to our economy. They live, work, eat and otherwise spend their money here. FICA is withheld even if they don't pay income tax, and in fact if they're here illegally that FICA is not going to go to them, it'll never be drawn against until such time as they get legal and start paying into the system under their own names.

I think Bane's 2-part approach sounds good in theory, but would require an all-new beurocracy, or vastly increasing manpower of an existing one, to enforce. Then what of the businesses that collapse because they CAN'T afford to go legal? THAT will hit the economy too.

Having run a plumbing shop for many years, I'm gonna generalize and say that white boys can't dig! Or won't, whatever. They wouldn't dig trenches in hard Californioa soil for any money, but go to the Home Depot and pick up a few Mexicans and they will do back-breaking labor for cheap wages and free lunch. Casual labor, no documentation, perfectly legal.

You can pay them $8 an hour and get 5x the work you'd get paying white kids $15 - because the Mexican will get to work, while the white kids will want to tell you about their "better" idea, argue with you about it, and the whole time they are not lifting a finger.

We don't want the jobs they do, at any wage. We're lucky they're willing to do it at all, let alone for so cheap.

[bane]

I don't think you'd really need a new bureacracy Lerx. The IRS could do it, fairly easily I'd think. It doesn't take them long to figure out when somebody is using a fake social security number. Hold the employer accountable for it, even if he says he was unaware that it was fake. It puts the burden on the business to make sure they're hiring somebody legal.

[vanitybinge]

I don't think you'd really need a new bureacracy Lerx. The IRS could do it, fairly easily I'd think. It doesn't take them long to figure out when somebody is using a fake social security number. Hold the employer accountable for it, even if he says he was unaware that it was fake. It puts the burden on the business to make sure they're hiring somebody legal.

Even then, how would they figure it out? You'd have to really screen all the money coming and going, and how? demand reciepts from all the bosses "cigarettes and coffee" expenses that pay the workers? Show up at the job site and count how many people are working?

My buddy said something very provocative a few weeks ago; Every regulation costs the little guy. When you regulate that all the mills on the river must install polution filters and comply with the new code, the small tanner on the shoulder who isn't polluting but can't afford the compliance is pushed out of business.

My point is, I wouldn't trust the IRS to handle my taco.

[bane]

Employers have to write off that pay roll. They don't just eat the cost and claim it as income and pay the taxes on it. Doing so would cost them far more than they were saving by hiring illegals in the first place. They write it off now. The difference is that the IRS usually doesn't chase them down for it. The IRS will send them a letter and they can just say, "That guy with the fake social? He quit 6 months ago, I don't know where he is." and do that over and over again. Some of them will just have the guy get a new social every year or so and change his name. There's a huge black market in that shit. They do it all the time. What I would do is change the IRS's take on that. Make the employer accountable whether the guy is a "former" employee or not.

[Blue Midget]

I think a good place to start with the immigration problem is to make the procedure easier to understand, cheaper for the applicant and more efficient although that typically has more to do with the country the person is coming from rather than the US.

Even though the US has made some improvements, the information on the INS website is still confusing and sometimes downright contradictive. If an educated American has a tough time deciphering the information, imagine what it's going to be like for someone who isn't proficient in English and not overly educated. Sure you can call to get the information and they do have bilingual officers, however, at times it can take nearly an hour just to get a real person on the phone to talk to and even then, you may not get what you need.

As things are right now, the system is basically geared toward the well to do which is ridiculous because if people are well off their native country, it's not overly likely that they would want to come to the US to make a better life. I petitioned to bring my now husband here from England in 1998. The total cost of filing all the paperwork from the start through when he actually received his first greencard (they cost over $300 to renew every ten years) came to a total of about $1000. That, however, doesn't include the airfare to get him here or the transportation/lodging costs we had to pay when we had to go to the processing center in order to get everything finalized for his greencard. All of those expenses add another $1000 or so. These days thanks to Bush, many of the paperwork expenses have risen to three or four times what they were back then. When you consider that many of the illegal aliens who are here came from places where the average daily wage is the equivalent to $5 - $10/day, there's very little chance they are going to be able to afford to come here legally. Because of that, I don't blame them for doing what they do.

As for the time involved, I don't think it should be an overly speedy process necessarily because that could make the system easier to "rip off". For my husband and I, it took four months from the time I petitioned until he had his visa. That was actually quick compared to what a lot of people were experiencing, however, he wasn't coming from a place that didn't have a cooperative government and thankfully the processing center I had to go through was one of the least busy ones. Once we were married, we could file for his greencard and that is a definite two year wait; not necessarily because they're backlogged but rather a way of attempting to enusre we married for love and weren't trying to fraud the system. Personally, I feel that sort of wait is reasonable, however, making people pay $100 for a work permit renewal (basically a laminated card that looks like a driver's license) at least once in that time when they are already working and paying tax like a citizen is ridiculous. This is where I think improved efficiency needs to come in. If there's a mandatory wait time for something, your work permit should last you at least that long. There shouldn't be any of this refiling nonsense which requires you to miss a day of work and shell out large sums of money to the government so you're allowed to continue making that better life that you're after.

[VinnieKulick]

That's not how it works and it's not how it should work either.

So, you have no problem with people who are breaking the law not being held accountable. If we're going to cling to the 14th as a a reason why they should be 'protected' then we should also cling to:
Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

* Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
* Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
* Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;

has committed a federal crime.

And, when working illegally, it's not only immigration laws, it's identity theft, which is a crime as well.

Working without a green card isn't a crime.

Of course it is, because being in the country without proper documentation is a federal crime.

Illegal doesn't mean criminal. It is a civil code violation not a penal code violation.

Seriously, are you that fucking dense? Illegal means NOT LEGAL.Doing something that is NOT LEGAL is CRIMINAL. Whether you violate a civil code, or a state code, or a federal code, it's still breaking the law.

An illegal immigrant is protected by the law just as a legal immigrant or citizen is protected by the law. That's due to the 14th Amendment. Violating immigration laws doesn't mean you have no right to sue and recover from someone for breach of contract or failure to comply with the labor code.

Correct, they are protected by the law.

But they are also subject to the laws they break, and should be prosecuted accordingly.

[vanitybinge]

Illegal doesn't mean criminal. It is a civil code violation not a penal code violation.

Seriously, are you that fucking dense? Illegal means NOT LEGAL.Doing something that is NOT LEGAL is CRIMINAL. Whether you violate a civil code, or a state code, or a federal code, it's still breaking the law.

There is a difference between criminal and civil offenses. I know you're talking about Federal crimes here, just sayin.

[VinnieKulick]

Being in the country without the proper documentation is a federal crime, not a civil one.
The fact that they ALSO broke a civil code by working without a green card is besides the point.

[Blue Midget]

Being in the country without the proper documentation is a federal crime, not a civil one.
The fact that they ALSO broke a civil code by working without a green card is besides the point.

Being in the country without proper documentation is a crime, however, you don't have to have a greencard to be legally eligible to work.

[Blue Midget]

Being in the country without proper documentation is a crime

No it's not a crime. Illegal does not mean criminal. You are subject to civil penalties for violating the immigration laws.

Really? Then I guess you didn't know that an alien eighteen years or older is guilty of a misdemeanor if they don't carry or have a certificate of alien registration or an alien registration receipt card issued to him/her in their personal possession at all times.