Oh (No) Canada

[vanitybinge]

Tell that to the guys who lost their fortunes and are now 'bums on the street" because some CEO like Madoff fucked them over.

I don't care about your callousness so much as I do the fact that you seem to base a person's worth entirely on their income. If I'm given the task to choose who to save from a big disaster, the size of your wallet isn't going to matter to me as much as what kind of person you are.

You are not your wallet
You are not your job
You are not your car
You are not your khakis
You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake

I don't base a person's worth on their income, the system does. And we're not talking about disasters; we are talking about potentially fatal health conditions and, as horrible as it is to say, in a system where money governs everything, it's in the best interests of the system to get the person who has hundreds/thousands relying on him/her back in the game before the person who relies on hundreds/thousands.

No. No. No. That money would go to all kinds of people through the will should the rich man die. Maybe it's the French in you saying "let the poor die".

[thejuggernaut]

Tell that to the guys who lost their fortunes and are now 'bums on the street" because some CEO like Madoff fucked them over.

I don't care about your callousness so much as I do the fact that you seem to base a person's worth entirely on their income. If I'm given the task to choose who to save from a big disaster, the size of your wallet isn't going to matter to me as much as what kind of person you are.

You are not your wallet
You are not your job
You are not your car
You are not your khakis
You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake

I don't base a person's worth on their income, the system does. And we're not talking about disasters; we are talking about potentially fatal health conditions and, as horrible as it is to say, in a system where money governs everything, it's in the best interests of the system to get the person who has hundreds/thousands relying on him/her back in the game before the person who relies on hundreds/thousands.

No. No. No. That money would go to all kinds of people through the will should the rich man die. Maybe it's the French in you saying "let the poor die".

1. When did I say "let the poor die" ?

2. What French would that be ?

[Tykel]

Hes missing the point now I think, this started out over how in Canada no one can buy past the lines there are waiting lists. But Mr. Rich has the means to buy into, and past a line in America.

Juggernaut is right when he says the system is basing people on $, when I wrote my post above I meant my position and still do, however I did lose sight that the initial debate. In which, again I agree the system see people for what they can put back into the system to keep it functioning.

It's structural functionalism really, so lets not talk of who wed save in a disaster when the point is you can go to America and buy yourself a front seat in the line, if you have the money vs everyone in Canada having access but at a cost of waiting.

[vanitybinge]

I get Jugg's point about how it works, but (s)he's defending it as if it's a moral imperative to rate health care access based on your financial status. It didn't come across as "this is how it works in Canada and this is how it works in the US", it came across as "If I'm a billionaire I'm more important than you, garbage man."
In other words, it was more like speaking for the machine then it was describing the machine.

[thejuggernaut]

I get Jugg's point about how it works, but (s)he's defending it as if it's a moral imperative to rate health care access based on your financial status. It didn't come across as "this is how it works in Canada and this is how it works in the US", it came across as "If I'm a billionaire I'm more important than you, garbage man."
In other words, it was more like speaking for the machine then it was describing the machine.

Perhaps you're on the bottom end of the machine and that's why you're perceiving it that way.

Let's make it really simple and take earnings out of the equation with a simple yes or no question:

Do you think it's more important to get an Oncologist back on his feet before the squeegee man at the intersection ?

[vanitybinge]

I get Jugg's point about how it works, but (s)he's defending it as if it's a moral imperative to rate health care access based on your financial status. It didn't come across as "this is how it works in Canada and this is how it works in the US", it came across as "If I'm a billionaire I'm more important than you, garbage man."
In other words, it was more like speaking for the machine then it was describing the machine.

Perhaps you're on the bottom end of the machine and that's why you're perceiving it that way.

Let's make it really simple and take earnings out of the equation with a simple yes or no question:

Do you think it's more important to get an Oncologist back on his feet before the squeegee man at the intersection ?

Without squeegee men, who's gonna keep the blond from causing a three-car pileup because of a bug on her windshield?

[Tykel]

I get Jugg's point about how it works, but (s)he's defending it as if it's a moral imperative to rate health care access based on your financial status. It didn't come across as "this is how it works in Canada and this is how it works in the US", it came across as "If I'm a billionaire I'm more important than you, garbage man."
In other words, it was more like speaking for the machine then it was describing the machine.

Perhaps you're on the bottom end of the machine and that's why you're perceiving it that way.

Let's make it really simple and take earnings out of the equation with a simple yes or no question:

Do you think it's more important to get an Oncologist back on his feet before the squeegee man at the intersection ?

Without squeegee men, who's gonna keep the blond from causing a three-car pileup because of a bug on her windshield?

Conversation is over.

[vlad]

So...just a little update on Danny Williams' trip to the US for his surgery...

Turns out he wanted a cosmetic kind that would leave a minimal scar....usually performed on young women with breasts....a surgery not usually advised, because of the risks...a vanity thing.

Oh, the surgery IS performed in Canada, btw...

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/02/23/cana ... s-surgery/

[thejuggernaut]

So...just a little update on Danny Williams' trip to the US for his surgery...

Turns out he wanted a cosmetic kind that would leave a minimal scar....usually performed on young women with breasts....a surgery not usually advised, because of the risks...a vanity thing.

Oh, the surgery IS performed in Canada, btw...

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/02/23/cana ... s-surgery/

That's great.

It still doesn't change the fact that he could get it done immediately in the US as opposed to getting put on a list in Canada.

[vanitybinge]

So how do you feel about the system you live with? We know how you feel about the line, but overall, what's your first hand experience and opinion? Do you feel like the grass is greener on the other side, or would you rather have what you have now?

[thejuggernaut]

So how do you feel about the system you live with? We know how you feel about the line, but overall, what's your first hand experience and opinion? Do you feel like the grass is greener on the other side, or would you rather have what you have now?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=219348

Without taking the time to crunch the numbers, I would have to say some sort of cap, where serious treatment (cancer/severe trauma, full body casts, and anything catastrophic which will incur extreme costs should be handled by the government) EDIT - would be subsidized.

Smaller things like a broken arm, flu treatment etc etc either take a credit card or cash on the spot, and if they have neither, direct bill them and if payment is not received, take it from their social security.

One of the biggest contributors to healthcare costs are people who are into recreational medicine. That, and hypochondriacs.

[vlad]

So...just a little update on Danny Williams' trip to the US for his surgery...

Turns out he wanted a cosmetic kind that would leave a minimal scar....usually performed on young women with breasts....a surgery not usually advised, because of the risks...a vanity thing.

Oh, the surgery IS performed in Canada, btw...

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/02/23/cana ... s-surgery/

That's great.

It still doesn't change the fact that he could get it done immediately in the US as opposed to getting put on a list in Canada.

I'd like to see any proof that Americans who are insured would be able to get this specific surgery...that is, would their insurane, HMO approve it with it's risks when the traditional procedure is safer and, most importantly to them, cheaper.

I really don't think you realise just how controlled medical care is for Americans...it's been getting worse for the past two decades...for every "horror" story one can find in Canada...there are terrible things that happen down here as well....and as been pointed out, there are more uninsured (not counting under insured) Americans than there are Canadians period.

I am just sick of the bullshit that Canda's healthcare system is some Orwellian nightmare compared to the US's. Because it isn't.

Find me an insurance company in this country that would fly the client/patient to Miami...what Williams was able to do, he could because he is very wealthy. The vast majority of Americans could no avail themselves of this same option.

[thejuggernaut]

So...just a little update on Danny Williams' trip to the US for his surgery...

Turns out he wanted a cosmetic kind that would leave a minimal scar....usually performed on young women with breasts....a surgery not usually advised, because of the risks...a vanity thing.

Oh, the surgery IS performed in Canada, btw...

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/02/23/cana ... s-surgery/

That's great.

It still doesn't change the fact that he could get it done immediately in the US as opposed to getting put on a list in Canada.

I'd like to see any proof that Americans who are insured would be able to get this specific surgery...that is, would their insurane, HMO approve it with it's risks when the traditional procedure is safer and, most importantly to them, cheaper.

I really don't think you realise just how controlled medical care is for Americans...it's been getting worse for the past two decades...for every "horror" story one can find in Canada...there are terrible things that happen down here as well....and as been pointed out, there are more uninsured (not counting under insured) Americans than there are Canadians period.

I am just sick of the bullshit that Canda's healthcare system is some Orwellian nightmare compared to the US's. Because it isn't.

Find me an insurance company in this country that would fly the client/patient to Miami...what Williams was able to do, he could because he is very wealthy. The vast majority of Americans could no avail themselves of this same option.

I don't think you realize just how controlled the Canadian system is.

You know those "death panels" that people thought was a pathetic Republican scare tactic ? What do you think happens in Canada when a person in an office decides who gets treatment and when it happens ? The term "death panel" is harsh language that does more to dull the point than sharpen it, but that's essentially what it is.

As flawed as the US' system is, it still offers the opportunity to get extensive treatment on demand when possible. Canada's doesn't.

[vanitybinge]

When you weigh the pros and cons of each side, even after what you said Juggs, your grass still looks greener than ours.

[bane]

When you weigh the pros and cons of each side, even after what you said Juggs, your grass still looks greener than ours.

That depends greatly on who you ask. Ask Juggs about his tax rate vs what he gets in return. I have a feeling he may disagree with your statement.

[thejuggernaut]

When you weigh the pros and cons of each side, even after what you said Juggs, your grass still looks greener than ours.

That depends greatly on who you ask. Ask Juggs about his tax rate vs what he gets in return. I have a feeling he may disagree with your statement.

What are you talking about ? I get plenty in return !!!

For about %40 I get:

Progressive tax rates.
Healthcare I have to pay for and can't write off.
Non existent immigration enforcement.
No sign of anti collusion laws.
Roads that are hardly ever maintained.
A comms department that teeters on the brink of Soviet Union styled control.
Pretty much everything is overpriced.