Hey War Boarders, hows that hopey-changey thing working out?

[Woland]

tourism isn't very different considering american tourists are leaving the country less and less. should we learn mandarin because china is buying everything? as far as i know, when you travel, there isn't much talking done. you want food? point at the menu. you want to buy something? bring it up to the cashier.

how is it bullshit? i didn't say anything about you having a problem with a second language in the US. i simply stated that expecting others to understand you well and clear and to be assimilated to the culture IS racism.

you kinda made my point right there - don't you find it awful and disrespectful when people bitch about immigrants without even giving an ounce of consideration over where they might be coming from or the hard work they might have put into learning a new language?

it's very common. i even find it to be even more common in quebec because of all the fucked up french laws.

[JakeYonkel]

tourism isn't very different considering american tourists are leaving the country less and less. should we learn mandarin because china is buying everything? as far as i know, when you travel, there isn't much talking done. you want food? point at the menu. you want to buy something? bring it up to the cashier.

Right, but I'm saying if you go to any of these places, they DO speak English to accomodate tourists. Airport signs are in English, guides speak it, etc.

how is it bullshit? i didn't say anything about you having a problem with a second language in the US. i simply stated that expecting others to understand you well and clear and to be assimilated to the culture IS racism.

I don't think expecting people to come here and at least learn to communicate is racist at all. People will always maintain their own culture, that's what America's about. But to not be able to order food at McDonald's or say hello back to the Wal-Mart greeter? C'mon. (tongue planted firmly in cheek)

you kinda made my point right there - don't you find it awful and disrespectful when people bitch about immigrants without even giving an ounce of consideration over where they might be coming from or the hard work they might have put into learning a new language?

I think it's disrespectful to go somewhere and expect the natives to accomodate you. I'm not talking about tourist hubs, obviously. That goes for me going into the mountain towns in Puerto Rico or the Mexicans that run the taco stand a few blocks over from here.

[bane]

you kinda made my point right there - don't you find it awful and disrespectful when people bitch about immigrants without even giving an ounce of consideration over where they might be coming from or the hard work they might have put into learning a new language?

You're making assumptions about "an ounce of consideration" for the difficulty of learning a new language. I expect recent immigrants to have problems with the language, but guys that have been here for 15-20 years shouldn't. They don't have to be fluent, but in 20 years they should be able to communicate on a basic level. There are plenty of people out there who can't even after many years of living here. I work with about 10 of them. I learned to speak Spanish because I found it made me more effective in my vocation and I know how difficult learning a new language can be, so I'm willing to cut those guys a lot of slack, but after years and years of living here, I think it's disrespectful to their adopted country to make no effort to assimilate.

[Woland]

eh, bane... not every job requires you to learn the basic language.

this is the exact problem with Quebec: most jobs simply require english. if you simply look at it from a sports aspect ( the montreal canadiens ), the media expects EVERYONE to know french. even our ex-captain Saku Koivu got shit from one of our ministers ( Pauline Marois ) because he never learned french ( he knew a little about the language - even joked at the media saying, 'i speak french in bed with my wife, if you know what i mean' )... but no one admired the fact the spoke english, finnish and swedish. they wanted to hear him give his interviews in french.

do you really expect hockey players to learn english? like let's say, Evgeni Malkin? he doesn't speak a word. Nor does Datsyuk.

and a lot of them are already assimilated. they just have their buddy translator help them out.

they're here to make money, you know. sometimes your job gets in the way of learning other skills.

[bane]

I think wealthy hockey players are probably a completely different thing. They can afford to tote a translator around with them. Your average Jose' working a construction gig can't. Speaking as a guy in the industry, a basic grasp of English would make those guys more money. The guys that move up the ladder and better their situation have all taken the time and put forth the effort. The guys that are still working a shovel for minimum wage after 15 years haven't. Personally, I consider it a work ethic / character issue. It has nothing to do with race.

[CliffByford]

I am actually of Jake's mindset here, whereby if you wish to live in another country you should make the attempt to learn the language at the very least. Failing to do so can have degrees of repercussions; at best, you're just some asshole in Sweden, speaking English because every fucker can. Somewhere in the middle is the wealthy couple who retire to Spain but don't bother with "the lingo", and incidentally "won't eat none of that foreign muck." I reserve a special kind of hatred for that strata of society - indeed, one that the UK seems intent on breeding more of.

Lastly, you do have people trapped because of the language barrier. Living in Texas, you probably have the two big languages - English and Spanish. Now, I would argue that Texas, New Mexico and other nearby areas do have a rich Spanish heritage and thus a bilingual answerphone service is not too much to ask for. I grew up in London, which has one of the most diverse ethnic make-up of any city in the world (in part thanks to the dissolution of the Commonwealth). This has resulted in a patchwork of races, communities and languages. A friend of mine works in a high school in north-east London and tells me that in one grade you can expect as many as fifteen different languages spoken - many as a first language.

Problems of ghettoisation can and do arise when immigrants fail to assimilate to even a small degree. As a consequence, my friend deals with kids who might as well be back in Bangladesh or Afghanistan and yet have to negotiate an English national curriculum. Is this a child's fault? No, they've been raised solely amongst Dari or Bengali speakers. In many Eastern cultures there are, we have to accept, problems with things like arranged marriages - but without the ability to communicate or understand anything of the society that surrounds them, many girls are subject to being married off against their will, threats, violence, kidnappings or even so-called 'honour killings'.

These are the people that I genuinely feel sympathy for, and that's why I think it's crucial that getting to grips with an indigenous language is an absolute necessity. Too often these debates take a solipsistic turn, where we cannot think of a situation outside our own experience. You find it hard to hate someone when you realise they might be desperate, or scared, or in danger and yet cannot literally find it within them to even utter the word "help".

[bane]

Speaking for myself, I do have a lot of respect and empathy for people from poor Latin countries that come here to try and better their lives. That said, there are an absolute ton of resources available to those folks to better their situation here. For example: Our public schools offer English as a second language classes. We have night classes available to adults for free that teach the same thing etc. Pick up any Spanish language newspaper or magazine here and there are advertisements all over the place for those things, so it's not a question of being unaware of the availability of the resource either. With that in mind, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for people that remain in a ghetto situation due to a cultural / language barrier that they won't take upon themselves to rectify. I know it has to be tough to assimilate at first, so anyone with an ounce of humanity would cut those folks a little slack but given years and years to try and do so, it ceases to be a point of sympathy. I really do think it eventually becomes a question of character.

[Skate4RnR]

I think that anybody who comes over here and doesn't learn english should be executed on the spot. I know people on the East coast, all their ancestry from Ellis Island learned English before they even bothered to show up.

God damn you! God fucking damn you! And your tongues bitch!

[Ugmo]

And yeah, you should speak English to live here just as I should speak Greek if I wanted to live in Greece.

"Should"? Why, if you can function just fine speaking English? Let me tell you, in Vienna the Americans/Brits/Irish are the only people in town who don't tend to speak a single word of the language. Nobody gets on their back because of it. If they couldn't function on a day-to-day basis they'd have to learn the language. Same with immigrants to America. If you move to California or whatever and you're part of a large enough Latin community that you can function fine without speaking English, then who really gives a shit?

[KneelandBobDylan]

It's working out fine thanks!


Passed Healthcare Reform (ending preexisting conditions, giving small business subsidies for providing insurance, Creating 3.2M HC-related jobs over the next 10 years, closing the medicare donut hole in drug coverage, ensuring coverage for all kids up till the age of 26, covering 32 million americans, expanding medicaid to cover the rest, all while cutting the national debt by a 100 billion dollars) - Check.

Signed into law Tax Cuts for all middle income families, and 95% of all Americans - Check

Signed an Arms control agreement with Russia to dismantle nuclear weapons - Check

Reauthorized SCHIP to cover all Children - Check

Saved the entire stock market from collapsing (from a low point of a dow of 6000 within a month of Obama taking office, to close to 11,000 just an year later, basically preventing millions of retirement accounts from getting wiped out) - Check

Ended the ban on travel for people with HIV - Check

Stopped the dismissals of homosexual individuals serving in the military by the Pentagon (It's the first step to dismantling DA,DT completely) - Check

Ended the federal crackdown on Medicinal Marijuana centers in CA - Check

Passed into law Mortgage Fraud Protections - Check

Ended the ban on Stem Cell Research - Check

Passed Student Loan Reform, and Used The Savings to Significantly Increase Financial Aid Loans and Grants - Check

Engaged in diplomatic dialogue with Middle Eastern countries, instead of using language like "Axis of Evil" that achieves nothing other than to piss them off some more. - Check

Passed Credit Card Reform (Minimizing Predatory Lending, Making the terms of credit cards clear, eliminating arbitrary rate increases) - Check

Since the passage of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, have had the new job loss numbers from their peak right as Obama took office, go down steadily month after month, every single month like clockwork to the point that finally, this month is going to have job growth in the six figures (a trend expected to accelerate this whole year) - Check

Reversed the ban on sending foreign aid to countries with legal abortions (The Mexico City Policy) - Check

Signed the Expanded Hate Crimes Bill - Check

Helped stem down employment discrimination by passing the Lilly Ledbetter Act - Check

Extended Unemployment Benefit, helping millions of Americans stave off bankrupcy until the economy recovers - Check

Drew down troops in Iraq for a 2011 withdrawl date - Check

Drew down Gitmo detainees and making prepartations to close it by 2011 - Check

Increased the forces in Afganistan and brought to justice 500+ major Al Queda senior leaders in the past year (more than the Bush Administration brought in all eight years combined) - Check

Saved the entire US Auto Industry (GM and Chrysler) from going bankrupt thus preventing dozens of major factories and hundreds of dealerships from closing their doors - Check

Saved banks from going bankrupt to the point that they're profitable again and have now paid back all of government loans and bailout funds in full and with interest - Check

Signed into law, new mileage and emissions standard for cars and suvs - Check

Working on Education Reform and Financial Regulatory Reform so banks can't pull this crap again - The very next thing on his list

It's been a hell of a productive first year for him. He made good on more than 90% of what he promised while running for election. I can't think of many presidents who accomplish that much in eight years (especially on issues as big as healthcare reform). And that's just what I can remember. Do you guys have anything to add?

[Chevyman]

and how is he going to pay for all that seeing how we have no money to pay for it ?


TAXES on everyone for everything

[tin00can]

and how is he going to pay for all that seeing how we have no money to pay for it ?


TAXES on everyone for everything

Really?

[Luminiferous]

Actually only the Republicans, Teabaggers, Faux News employees and their viewers are being taxed..

[Nemesis]

Yep, he's kept us safe from terrorist attacks considerably longer than the last guy. Thanks for stopping by.

I don't know how you can say he's kept us safer longer than the last guy since he's only been President for over a year.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

Actually only the Republicans, Teabaggers, Faux News employees and their viewers are being taxed..

I thought feminine hygiene when they said douches would be taxed to help pay for health care.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

Yep, he's kept us safe from terrorist attacks considerably longer than the last guy. Thanks for stopping by.

I don't know how you can say he's kept us safer longer than the last guy since he's only been President for over a year.

Last guy sworn in: 1/20/2001
WTC + 4 planes with passengers and crew destroyed, Pentagon with big hole in the front: 9/11/2001

You do the math.

[Nevermind]

Yep, he's kept us safe from terrorist attacks considerably longer than the last guy. Thanks for stopping by.

I don't know how you can say he's kept us safer longer than the last guy since he's only been President for over a year.

Last guy sworn in: 1/20/2001
WTC + 4 planes with passengers and crew destroyed, Pentagon with big hole in the front: 9/11/2001

You do the math.

So if Obama still blames Bush for everything after over a year in the presidency, then WTC + 4 planes with passengers and crew destroyed, Pentagon with big hole in the front: 9/11/2001, then that was obviously all Clintons fault. Bush just inherited it.

[thejuggernaut]

It's working out fine thanks!


Passed Healthcare Reform (ending preexisting conditions, giving small business subsidies for providing insurance, Creating 3.2M HC-related jobs over the next 10 years, closing the medicare donut hole in drug coverage, ensuring coverage for all kids up till the age of 26, covering 32 million americans, expanding medicaid to cover the rest, all while cutting the national debt by a 100 billion dollars) - Check.

Signed into law Tax Cuts for all middle income families, and 95% of all Americans - Check

Signed an Arms control agreement with Russia to dismantle nuclear weapons - Check

Reauthorized SCHIP to cover all Children - Check

Saved the entire stock market from collapsing (from a low point of a dow of 6000 within a month of Obama taking office, to close to 11,000 just an year later, basically preventing millions of retirement accounts from getting wiped out) - Check

Ended the ban on travel for people with HIV - Check

Stopped the dismissals of homosexual individuals serving in the military by the Pentagon (It's the first step to dismantling DA,DT completely) - Check

Ended the federal crackdown on Medicinal Marijuana centers in CA - Check

Passed into law Mortgage Fraud Protections - Check

Ended the ban on Stem Cell Research - Check

Passed Student Loan Reform, and Used The Savings to Significantly Increase Financial Aid Loans and Grants - Check

Engaged in diplomatic dialogue with Middle Eastern countries, instead of using language like "Axis of Evil" that achieves nothing other than to piss them off some more. - Check

Passed Credit Card Reform (Minimizing Predatory Lending, Making the terms of credit cards clear, eliminating arbitrary rate increases) - Check

Since the passage of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, have had the new job loss numbers from their peak right as Obama took office, go down steadily month after month, every single month like clockwork to the point that finally, this month is going to have job growth in the six figures (a trend expected to accelerate this whole year) - Check

Reversed the ban on sending foreign aid to countries with legal abortions (The Mexico City Policy) - Check

Signed the Expanded Hate Crimes Bill - Check

Helped stem down employment discrimination by passing the Lilly Ledbetter Act - Check

Extended Unemployment Benefit, helping millions of Americans stave off bankrupcy until the economy recovers - Check

Drew down troops in Iraq for a 2011 withdrawl date - Check

Drew down Gitmo detainees and making prepartations to close it by 2011 - Check

Increased the forces in Afganistan and brought to justice 500+ major Al Queda senior leaders in the past year (more than the Bush Administration brought in all eight years combined) - Check

Saved the entire US Auto Industry (GM and Chrysler) from going bankrupt thus preventing dozens of major factories and hundreds of dealerships from closing their doors - Check

Saved banks from going bankrupt to the point that they're profitable again and have now paid back all of government loans and bailout funds in full and with interest - Check

Signed into law, new mileage and emissions standard for cars and suvs - Check

Working on Education Reform and Financial Regulatory Reform so banks can't pull this crap again - The very next thing on his list

It's been a hell of a productive first year for him. He made good on more than 90% of what he promised while running for election. I can't think of many presidents who accomplish that much in eight years (especially on issues as big as healthcare reform). And that's just what I can remember. Do you guys have anything to add?

LOL

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

Last guy sworn in: 1/20/2001
WTC + 4 planes with passengers and crew destroyed, Pentagon with big hole in the front: 9/11/2001

You do the math.

So if Obama still blames Bush for everything after over a year in the presidency, then WTC + 4 planes with passengers and crew destroyed, Pentagon with big hole in the front: 9/11/2001, then that was obviously all Clintons fault. Bush just inherited it.

These are the facts. You can't deny them. Your logic has a bigger hole than the one in the Pentagon.

[EvilMadman]

Last guy sworn in: 1/20/2001
WTC + 4 planes with passengers and crew destroyed, Pentagon with big hole in the front: 9/11/2001

You do the math.

So if Obama still blames Bush for everything after over a year in the presidency, then WTC + 4 planes with passengers and crew destroyed, Pentagon with big hole in the front: 9/11/2001, then that was obviously all Clintons fault. Bush just inherited it.

These are the facts. You can't deny them. Your logic has a bigger hole than the one in the Pentagon.

Al Qaeda did metastasize in the 1990's right under Clinton's big red nose, after all.

[MasterOfMeatPuppets]

Al Qaeda did metastasize in the 1990's right under Clinton's big red nose, after all.

...and they flew planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon right under Bush's nose.