Why were Gene and Paul such j@goffs re: Mark St. John?

[Chip Z'Hoy]

He was never let go for his playing, he was let go because he got elephantitis of the knucks and couldn't play.

But in the years following, whenever he was brought up, Gene and Paul would talk about how he was a showboat and played a million notes but had no groove, etc.

Not nice!

[HueyRamone]

There had to be a ton of guys more appropriate to pick, including Kulick, but they never admit it was their fault that they picked him.

[rockker]

Listen to the Poughkeepsie off the soundboard, why they got rid of him needs no explication after listening to that

[Velvis]

He was never let go for his playing, he was let go because he got elephantitis of the knucks and couldn't play.

But in the years following, whenever he was brought up, Gene and Paul would talk about how he was a showboat and played a million notes but had no groove, etc.

Not nice!

He was going to be let go regardless of the hand thing. They used that as an excuse so he didn't look like he got fired and G&P didn't look like idiots for hiring him in the first place and being wrong about it. Especially after burning though VV so quickly.

The real question was why they hired him to begin with. I don't think there was a super time crunch for the tour (like there was for Creatures) and clearly Gene didn't like his style, and I don't think he brought anything to the table songwriting wise.

I'm not sure what they were thinking.

[DangerZone]

Bob Kulick should have been the no-brainer first choice as soon as Ace split

But Vinnie did help create one of their best records- lick it up

[pieceofme]

He was never let go for his playing, he was let go because he got elephantitis of the knucks and couldn't play.

But in the years following, whenever he was brought up, Gene and Paul would talk about how he was a showboat and played a million notes but had no groove, etc.

Not nice!

He was going to be let go regardless of the hand thing. They used that as an excuse so he didn't look like he got fired and G&P didn't look like idiots for hiring him in the first place and being wrong about it. Especially after burning though VV so quickly.

The real question was why they hired him to begin with. I don't think there was a super time crunch for the tour (like there was for Creatures) and clearly Gene didn't like his style, and I don't think he brought anything to the table songwriting wise.

I'm not sure what they were thinking.

They probably tried to get someone cheap and then it backfired.

Vinnie Vincent is off his rocker but at least he was a songwriter and his contributions to KISS ranged from good to great. If they had kept him on the 80s material after lick it up it would probably have been better

[ijwthstd]

He was never let go for his playing, he was let go because he got elephantitis of the knucks and couldn't play.

But in the years following, whenever he was brought up, Gene and Paul would talk about how he was a showboat and played a million notes but had no groove, etc.

Not nice!

He was going to be let go regardless of the hand thing. They used that as an excuse so he didn't look like he got fired and G&P didn't look like idiots for hiring him in the first place and being wrong about it. Especially after burning though VV so quickly.

The real question was why they hired him to begin with. I don't think there was a super time crunch for the tour (like there was for Creatures) and clearly Gene didn't like his style, and I don't think he brought anything to the table songwriting wise.

I'm not sure what they were thinking.

There was 6 months between the end of Lick It Up and the beginning of Animalize. Gene was likely not very engaged at all, concentrating on his movie career, rubber stamping whatever Paul wants. It was probably a bad decision that almost made itself. Who else was involved that era? Kinda hard to see Robben Ford or Rick Derringer touring with KISS.

[Wiseacre]

GENE SIMMONS is a human who pretends to be a monster onstage and a monster who pretends to be a human offstage.

PAUL STANLEY hates anyone in KISS not named PAUL STANLEY. ERIC SINGER is a possible exception, but he doesn't play guitar might actually have a smaller pecker.

[kreamygoodness]

It's never their fault. The KISS buck supposedly stops with G&P but there are excuses aplenty as to why they "had" to bring in VV or MSJ. Gene and Paul are two of the biggest, most hypocritical douches in rock history!

[Fat_Elvis]

No doubt. Animalize with VV would have been massive.

Not if those VVI songs were gonna be on it.

[Love_Industry]

I don't think there was a super time crunch for the tour (like there was for Creatures) and clearly Gene didn't like his style, and I don't think he brought anything to the table songwriting wise.

I'm not sure what they were thinking.

Oh, there was. They were trying to get an agreement with Vinnie after the LIU tour ended in March 1984 and Vinnie was then working on songs for Kiss with drummer Hirsh Gardner at the time. Hirsh said in a recent interview that Vinnie was on the phone with G&P all the time in the Spring.

When it didn't work out they had to get a guitarist quite urgently for the album and tour.

[Hatchets Molly]

KISS was going through an identity crisis after Ace and Pete were gone and the makeup came off, not to mention financial issues. Gene, the movie star and then some, they were thrashing on what to do next. In hindsight, it was probably the best time to churn and burn through guitar players until Kulick. For all the flack he got for his lack of stage presence, I think he was key to resetting to the degree possible. KISS began getting airtime on DIALMTV, Bruce found his footing in the classic songs after a while, and musically they were at their best. We all knew it was a matter of time before all of that led to the post-unplugged reunion. So although Kulick was a hired gun, I think being easy to work with, doing his job well, and ending the volatility cycle set the path toward the inevitable. An opinion.

[pieceofme]

GENE SIMMONS is a human who pretends to be a monster onstage and a monster who pretends to be a human offstage.

PAUL STANLEY hates anyone in KISS not named PAUL STANLEY. ERIC SINGER is a possible exception, but he doesn't play guitar might actually have a smaller pecker.

He hates Bruce and Tommy?

[Wiseacre]

GENE SIMMONS is a human who pretends to be a monster onstage and a monster who pretends to be a human offstage.

PAUL STANLEY hates anyone in KISS not named PAUL STANLEY. ERIC SINGER is a possible exception, but he doesn't play guitar might actually have a smaller pecker.

He hates Bruce and Tommy?

Tommy was never a “member” and he does seem treat Bruce like a 2nd class citizen. Don’t be “that guy”. You knew what I meant.

[pieceofme]

GENE SIMMONS is a human who pretends to be a monster onstage and a monster who pretends to be a human offstage.

PAUL STANLEY hates anyone in KISS not named PAUL STANLEY. ERIC SINGER is a possible exception, but he doesn't play guitar might actually have a smaller pecker.

He hates Bruce and Tommy?

Tommy was never a “member” and he does seem treat Bruce like a 2nd class citizen. Don’t be “that guy”. You knew what I meant.

I was just wondering

[Brainy Lane]

He hates Bruce and Tommy?

Tommy was never a “member” and he does seem treat Bruce like a 2nd class citizen. Don’t be “that guy”. You knew what I meant.

I was just wondering

No one invited Bruce to the last show. That says something. I understand not wanting Ace and Peter there (they would’ve caused a scene) But Bruce?

[dmbrocker]

No doubt. Animalize with VV would have been massive.

Only problem with that is we wouldn't have had VVI, which means we probably wouldn't have gotten Mark Slaughter, and thus no Slaughter, Stick It to Ya, "Up All Night", and "Fly to the Angels". Or would that have been a good thing?

[Velvis]

I don't think there was a super time crunch for the tour (like there was for Creatures) and clearly Gene didn't like his style, and I don't think he brought anything to the table songwriting wise.

I'm not sure what they were thinking.

Oh, there was. They were trying to get an agreement with Vinnie after the LIU tour ended in March 1984 and Vinnie was then working on songs for Kiss with drummer Hirsh Gardner at the time. Hirsh said in a recent interview that Vinnie was on the phone with G&P all the time in the Spring.

When it didn't work out they had to get a guitarist quite urgently for the album and tour.

Mark played on Animalize. They had 5 months between tours. I would assume they were planning on using Mark live once they started recording.

[Chip Z'Hoy]

No one invited Bruce to the last show. That says something. I understand not wanting Ace and Peter there (they would’ve caused a scene) But Bruce?

It was lose/lose. If they just invited Bruce, then it would've been like "Where's Ace and Peter?" Some insane people would've asked "Where's Vinnie?"

And, more (most) importantly, there would've been no significant dollar increase by inviting Bruce Kulick onstage. They made exactly the same amount of money either way, so why bother?

Also think it would've been kind of a weird look with four makeup guys and Spruce Kulick up there. (He seems like such a nice guy, I feel bad saying that.)

But it's definitely kind of weird that MTV Unplugged was more of a significant event than their last show ever. I can't blame anyone for expecting a little more.

[DangerZone]

No one invited Bruce to the last show. That says something. I understand not wanting Ace and Peter there (they would’ve caused a scene) But Bruce?

But it's definitely kind of weird that MTV Unplugged was more of a significant event than their last show ever. I can't blame anyone for expecting a little more.

I think they knew they were well past the expiration date and were just milking the last few dollars out of the casuals and truly deranged super fans.
But the goodwill was gone from the normal fans so there was no way to have some sincere event like unplugged

[Guitarmageddon_VI]

I think he got the job because of Grover Jackson's recommendation. Mark wasn't properly vetted by Paul, doubt Gene really cared at that point.

But Bruce came in to do some work on Animalize, which was more like an audition. Paul tells him to not cut his hair, think Mark was on the way out regardless of the arthritis.

[Chip Z'Hoy]

I think they knew they were well past the expiration date and were just milking the last few dollars out of the casuals and truly deranged super fans.
But the goodwill was gone from the normal fans so there was no way to have some sincere event like unplugged

Was the last show even a PPV event? Or did they give up on anything like that after the Dubai fiasco? Looking at the setlist, it looks like the same setlist they were doing for 15 years, with "Say Yeah" for a bathroom break.

Rush had a whole thing. That was a cool set! Doing their whole career in reverse. No real announcement but the fans seemed hip to it being the end. A documentary--tears in the audience.

I got kinda choked up watching the Rush doc! This part of people's lives ending. I was very emotional.

Kiss was like "Look, it's the last one, show up or don't." Same set as if they were playing Beloit.

I get that at their level, it's a little trickier than "Let's add in some deep cuts just for the fuck of it." They got pyro and lasers and a whole thing. If only they had a couple years of nothing going on to maybe plan something cool!

Don't even me started on the Kisstory documentary.

[DangerZone]

I think they knew they were well past the expiration date and were just milking the last few dollars out of the casuals and truly deranged super fans.
But the goodwill was gone from the normal fans so there was no way to have some sincere event like unplugged

Was the last show even a PPV event? Or did they give up on anything like that after the Dubai fiasco? Looking at the setlist, it looks like the same setlist they were doing for 15 years, with "Say Yeah" for a bathroom break.

Rush had a whole thing. That was a cool set! Doing their whole career in reverse. No real announcement but the fans seemed hip to it being the end. A documentary--tears in the audience.

I got kinda choked up watching the Rush doc! This part of people's lives ending. I was very emotional.

Kiss was like "Look, it's the last one, show up or don't." Same set as if they were playing Beloit.

I get that at their level, it's a little trickier than "Let's add in some deep cuts just for the fuck of it." They got pyro and lasers and a whole thing. If only they had a couple years of nothing going on to maybe plan something cool!

Don't even me started on the Kisstory documentary.

I understand it’s a business and Kiss were more business than most but that last run seemed especially cynical.
Maybe Gene is trying to make amends with his solo band apology tour

[ijwthstd]

They couldn't even update the hard drives and work in one or 2 different songs from the entire rest of the final leg, not sure how they worked in various guest spots from all the former members. It was obvious Paul just couldn't wait for it to be over. Bruce just doesn't fit in into this equation in any way.

[Love_Industry]

No doubt. Animalize with VV would have been massive.

Only problem with that is we wouldn't have had VVI, which means we probably wouldn't have gotten Mark Slaughter, and thus no Slaughter, Stick It to Ya, "Up All Night", and "Fly to the Angels". Or would that have been a good thing?

A good thing. Slaughter was generic early 90s hair metal, basically VVI without the songs and the VVI songs would have been better with Gene and Paul singing.

[Brainy Lane]

No one invited Bruce to the last show. That says something. I understand not wanting Ace and Peter there (they would’ve caused a scene) But Bruce?

It was lose/lose. If they just invited Bruce, then it would've been like "Where's Ace and Peter?" Some insane people would've asked "Where's Vinnie?"

And, more (most) importantly, there would've been no significant dollar increase by inviting Bruce Kulick onstage. They made exactly the same amount of money either way, so why bother?

Also think it would've been kind of a weird look with four makeup guys and Spruce Kulick up there. (He seems like such a nice guy, I feel bad saying that.)

But it's definitely kind of weird that MTV Unplugged was more of a significant event than their last show ever. I can't blame anyone for expecting a little more.

I didn’t mean invite Bruce on stage. I agree that would’ve look insane with a non makeup guy.
According to Bruce they didn’t reach out to him at all.
At least invite him to the show.

[Love_Industry]

I don't think there was a super time crunch for the tour (like there was for Creatures) and clearly Gene didn't like his style, and I don't think he brought anything to the table songwriting wise.

I'm not sure what they were thinking.

Oh, there was. They were trying to get an agreement with Vinnie after the LIU tour ended in March 1984 and Vinnie was then working on songs for Kiss with drummer Hirsh Gardner at the time. Hirsh said in a recent interview that Vinnie was on the phone with G&P all the time in the Spring.

When it didn't work out they had to get a guitarist quite urgently for the album and tour.

Mark played on Animalize. They had 5 months between tours. I would assume they were planning on using Mark live once they started recording.

Right. The crunch was for the album. They were still negotiating with Vinnie in April, and in May they started recording so they needed both a guitarist and some songs as they couldn't use Vinnie's.

[Mister Freeze]

No one invited Bruce to the last show. That says something. I understand not wanting Ace and Peter there (they would’ve caused a scene) But Bruce?

It was lose/lose. If they just invited Bruce, then it would've been like "Where's Ace and Peter?" Some insane people would've asked "Where's Vinnie?"

And, more (most) importantly, there would've been no significant dollar increase by inviting Bruce Kulick onstage. They made exactly the same amount of money either way, so why bother?

Also think it would've been kind of a weird look with four makeup guys and Spruce Kulick up there. (He seems like such a nice guy, I feel bad saying that.)

But it's definitely kind of weird that MTV Unplugged was more of a significant event than their last show ever. I can't blame anyone for expecting a little more.

I didn’t mean invite Bruce on stage. I agree that would’ve look insane with a non makeup guy.
According to Bruce they didn’t reach out to him at all.
At least invite him to the show.

Inviting Bruce to open the last two shows with his '80s tribute act was the obvious answer.

[Tommy2Tone84]

He was never let go for his playing, he was let go because he got elephantitis of the knucks and couldn't play.

But in the years following, whenever he was brought up, Gene and Paul would talk about how he was a showboat and played a million notes but had no groove, etc.

Not nice!

Gene has always said that about Mark in one way or another. Watch Xtreme Closeup where he mentions how he prefers a “simple A chord that will crack your ribs” rather than “a million notes that sound like an angry bee.” While you can interpret it as a generalIty, I always took it that he was referring to Mark and Vinnie, Mark specifically. He even comments that it took Bruce “a couple of years” to get “that crap” out of his playing. The thing that doesn’t make sense is, Gene loved Eddie Van Halen and Eddie helped bring that style of playing to the mainstream. Some would say he even invented it.

This subject is one where Gene and Paul never saw eye to eye on. But Gene let Paul have his way on it, with Mark specifically. Mark never fit the band musically or personality wise. Vinnie wasn’t ideal but he was much better than Mark on a number of fronts. They should’ve hired Bruce, Bob or Steve from the get go to replace Ace.


As much as he and Ace were at odds over Ace’s life choices and lifestyle. I really think Gene would’ve preferred him to stay in the band from a stylistic point of view. He’s said as much over the years.

Mark was always kind of a dick in interviews. Him being in the band was all Paul. It was one of many bad choices Paul has made over the years.

[Bono Nettencourt]

No doubt. Animalize with VV would have been massive.

Only problem with that is we wouldn't have had VVI, which means we probably wouldn't have gotten Mark Slaughter, and thus no Slaughter, Stick It to Ya, "Up All Night", and "Fly to the Angels". Or would that have been a good thing?

A good thing. Slaughter was generic early 90s hair metal, basically VVI without the songs and the VVI songs would have been better with Gene and Paul singing.

And here I thought VVI was Slaughter without the songs...